[Spoiler] The Sacrifice is very underwhelming.

[Voghelm]

Considering that DE themselves are clearly advertising/comparing The Sacrifice with The Second Dream and The War Within, I wanted to try comparing the patches they came with, since there's a certain pattern I came to dislike.

The Second Dream came out with UPD 18, besides the quest itself the patch brought these major additions:

Spoiler

• New tileset (Lua) with challenge rooms and unique rewards (Drift mods)
• Operators and character creation
• Focus schools
• Ivara warframe
• 5 new weapons
• Sentient enemies
• Sorties
• Other various improvements and bugfixes to existing parts of the game

 

The War Within came out with UPD 19 (344 days later after release of UPD 18), besides the quest itself the patch brought these major additions:

Spoiler

• New tileset (Kuva Fortress)
• Specific scenery location (composed of a lot of tiles and mini-puzzles) made SPECIFICALLY for the cinematic part of the quest
• Added operator mode
• 2 completely new enemy types (along with "revamped" Grineer sub-faction) 
• Riven mods
• Kuva siphon mission type
• 5 new weapons
• Tweaks/changes to many existing gamemodes 
• Other various improvements and bugfixes to existing parts of the game

 

The Sacrifice came out with UPD 23 (580 days later after release of UPD 19), besides the quest itself the patch brought these major additions:

Spoiler

• 2 new tiles
• Orokin puzzle minigame (wew lad, this was quite the journey) 
• New sentient type (Mimic) 
• Partial UI update (with free/PAID UI themes)
• Moddable exalted weapons
• Umbra Excalibur (assets for whom were in the game for a while now, which has minimum changes compared to ordinary Excalibur/Prime)
• Edgy Katana
• Umbra Mods (Which realistically are "Umbra" tagged set mods with unique polarity) 
• Other various improvements and bugfixes to existing parts of the game

 

Clearly, in all honesty, this comparison might seem unfair, since DE managed to make a lot of content between updates 19 and 23, Plains of Eidolon (launched with update 22) probably was the biggest patch the game had ever, and this same patch also gave the game it's mainstream attention. Besides, the game also had a massive amount of content added, including new warframes, side-quests, weapons and massive reworks/balance adjustments. 

BUT

Considering the amount of hype, comparisons and advertisement this patch had, going as far to compare it with Second Dream / TWW and calling it the "mind-bending new chapter of the cinematic storyline", I think this patch was still incredibly underwhelming with the amount of content it offered.

Now let's take a quick look at the quests themselves. I won't dive too deep into it or discuss it's writing and characters, since I'm hardly a critic for things like these, but I'll try to do my best to explain the main issues I have with The Sacrifice. 

It's not entertaining. It's a mix of multiple copypasted missions, enemies and a DOWNRIGHT SAD bossfight. With 2 new tiles in total (3 if you think you can count the "flashback room"), cinematic elements were incredibly dull. "Flashback room" was a static scene for it's whole appearance. Most other scenes were shot in one same location. There were a few nice well shot cutscenes here and there, but they were nowhere in the amount or quality of the cutscenes which Second Dream or TWW offered you. It doesn't feel that nearly as much time or effort has been put into this quest (Once again, comparing it to TWW or Second Dream), with "action parts" feeling on par, if not worse, than Chains of Harrow or Octavia's Anthem. 

There wasn't a single time I couldn't distinct "storyline cinematic quests" DE mentioned so many times with other, less important quests that were introduced at one point or another. Yet sadly, I cannot say the same about The Sacrifice. 

I like Umbra and I enjoyed the story of a "sentient" warframe, but I still can't look past all the issues I have with this update. I understand that DE has tennocon and Venus on their hands currently, but that's another part that makes me concerned. If quality of patches like this one will continue dropping (which is, arguably, already happening)  for the sake of showing something nice on Tennocon/making another open world, I really don't think I will be able to stay in this game for long.

I'm voicing my opinion in hopes that I will find some other people who think the same way, because, purely by the looks of it, this massive majority of the community seems to be completely satisfied with everything.

Thing that grinds my gears a lot, in the end, is probably DE's decision to push the idea of this quest being THE quest to stand next to Second Dream and TWW, while The Sacrifice on it's own wasn't capable of even remotely replicating the qualities that made both of those quests so memorizing for many. It felt very rushed and uninspired, which really isn't that big of a deal for side-quests (wew boi, I still hate Index after that one time), but it's really not something you want people to feel after finishing THE "cinematic experience" you've created.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Voghelm

[Voghelm]

I probably should add that everything I've said implies me comparing everything in The Sacrifice with TWW and Second Dream.

If any provided information is wrong, please, feel free to correct me.

EDIT: Added a bit of an "afterword" to the post.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Voghelm

[DJ_Vauban]

Eh, I kinda agree. When I checked the patch notes while downloading the patch, I was like "...but where are all the new weapons and stuff?"

I haven't touched the game after the quest because...there is literally no new content and I don't consider grinding endo content. We got a new quest, a semi-new frame and a Nikana...it all felt kinda empty to be honest.

The quest itself was awesome, until you realize that it will take probably at least another year before a new main quest comes out and you're stuck with a Cliffhanger

Edited June 16, 2018 by DJ_Vauban

[Monsterwithin]

Yeah this update forsure did feel pretty empty, if it didn't take as long as it did, I wouldn't mind it not having much content.

Quest was pretty good, even though it brought upon some Endo grind, we get some free gear and mods out of it, I would rank it 3rd out of all the quests, 2nd War Within, 1st Second Dream.

[Voghelm]

20 minutes ago, DJ_Vauban said:

The quest itself was awesome, until you realize that it will take probably at least another year before a new main quest comes out and you're stuck with a Cliffhanger

Honestly, if the follow up is going to be as short and feel as uninspired as The Sacrifice did in terms of gameplay... I don't even think I'm looking forward to it. Won't be surprised if it's going to be something along the lines of  "Haha, Lotus has been a traitor all this time you dumb kiddo, get bamboozled" drama.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Voghelm

[Gandergear]

mfw the final battle

Spoiler

 

 

[Zoey_Corredan]

Yea the quest content, although pretty great, with the whole explaining certain things about warframes, and confirming things about Lotus, and the Umbra quest stuff, was quite short...
Granted I personally took a few hours on the quest, just enjoying it, spamming screenshots on different things because why not, but after it all I was like.. is this it?!

I do hope there's way more coming very soon, and they'll do some kind of reveal at tennocon for it, to balance for the lack of content with the quest, but then again it's best to not get one's hopes up too much, because if nothing more comes for a while, less chance of being disappointed..

Some people, including me, have been talking/speculating on a discord server, and we so hope or wish DE will do something like a second solar system "Tau", and not just a single map or a planet, true they might have to start with something, but eh, you get the point.

But yea, they better go bigger again quest-wise and maybe even lead into something even bigger (the Tau solar system), or perhaps it explains their lack of content now.. they're preparing for something massive (hopefully not just the venus stuff).

Edited June 16, 2018 by Zoey_Corredan

[Guest]

Yeah, I was also looking forward to post-quest content...

If we had to farm for Umbra and those 5 mods, I'd be satisfied.

[ZodiacShinryu]

5 minutes ago, Voghelm said:

It's not entertaining. It's a mix of multiple copypasted missions, enemies and DOWNRIGHT SAD bossfight. With 2 new tiles in total (3 if you think you can count the "flashback room"), cinematic elements were incredibly dull. "Flashback room" was a static scene for it's whole appearance. Most other scenes were shot in one same location. There were a few nice well shot cutscenes here and there, but they were nowhere in the amount or quality of the cutscenes which Second Dream or TWW offered you. It doesn't feel that nearly as much time or effort has been put into this quest (Once again, comparing it to TWW or Second Dream), with "action parts" feeling on par, if not worse, than Chains of Harrow or Octavia's Anthem. 

Opinions are opinions but I was entertained none the less. What I can agree with is that is was lacking cinematics for a cinematic quest. The problem I think people are having is two-fold: The Sacrifice didn't add a new major system, and the contents of the pertaining Lore were well within expectations and foresight (people have been calling this since The Second Dream). I mean it is an interesting confirmation but really "everyone" put the pieces together and the quest became more a "how/where does it play out" rather than "why does it play out".

As far as content goes, Chains was decent (interesting lore and creepy atmosphere) and Anthem was one the worst quests (I honestly don't even remember what happened). The Second Dream and The War Within brought with them sweeping changes and a twist that I don't think most people foresaw. The ending sequence of the Sacrifice was indeed kinda anti-climatic (there is no way to pressure the end game player in that fight especially playing as Excalibur Umbra where Howl + EB absolutely decimates sentients) but it was because they didn't force you to use the "minor system" they added as well as the order of events of that sequence. DE got away with lame boss fights by forcing you to use those new systems afterall.

Spoiler

If in the final sequence, you ran toward Ballias and he commanded your Warframe to "Stop" and that whole stabby sequence happened first THEN the sentients started raining down and you were forced to stay Operator while Umbra supported you (the new minior system) that fight would have came off more interesting. I suppose more people were expecting a more detailed Umbra sentience system too (which DE can always expand upon later).

 

4 minutes ago, Voghelm said:

Won't be surprised if it's going to be something along the lines of  "Haha, Lotus has been a traitor all this time you dumb kiddo, get bamboozled" drama.

I mean it could. We still don't know why the Lotus is actually doing what she is doing. Some people say its because she chose her "lover" Ballias, maybe it is a conflict between memories of the form she took, or maybe it a more sinister deal maybe she initiated long ago or Ballias is extorting her into. Though it looks like we might be going to the Tau system soon and I know people are chopping at the bit for that.

[Buttaface]

For goodness sakes, what do you expect right before a new prime access drops? I'm no WK for DE, but in this case, the complaints are unreasonable.

[Voghelm]

1 minute ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Opinions are opinions but I was entertained none the less.

I mean, I can't say I wasn't. For a while, anyhow. But was it anywhere near the entertainment I got from TWW or Second Dream? Absolutely not. You are right, opinions are opinions, but I can imagine that it was like that for a lot of people too (That isn't an argument I'm trying to pick in any way or form, just sharing how I feel).

I would've wanted to dive deeper into certain other issues I personally have with the quest in terms of writing characters (if you can even apply this term, lol), but I really don't think I'm qualified enough to criticize that out loud.

These factors combined, though, were the things that underwhelmed me the most. If it wasn't mentioned multiple times (in the patchnotes as well) about how this is going to be the next part of warframe's CINEMATIC UNIVERSE, I probably wouldn't have had as much to complain about, really. 

[Voghelm]

7 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

For goodness sakes, what do you expect right before a new prime access drops? I'm no WK for DE, but in this case, the complaints are unreasonable.

I'm sorry, but I really fail to understand what this means. How's prime access linked to releasing a major patch with cinematic quest shipped in?

[Ternski]

They probably took on too much. PoE and The Sacrifice and Venus with its own unique mechanics.
Maybe they just need to slow down a bit.

[Buttaface]

1 minute ago, Voghelm said:

I'm sorry, but I really fail to understand what this means. How's prime access linked to releasing a major patch with cinematic quest shipped in?

It's simple, they don't want players engaged in massive new content and changes right when a prime access drops, they want players to feel a desire to buy the prime access for new content rather than adapt to massive free content that just dropped last week and ignore the prime access.

As far as comparing X cinematic quest to Y or Z down a checklist, that's fallacious right out of the gate. Why should this quest be like others, be bigger, smaller, accompanied by more or less content? No reason whatsoever, especially since it isn't content people have to buy for $$. If it were, you might have a point. But this isn't like other games where players are pitched to buy an expansion pack that turns out lacking or smaller than advertised.

[Birdframe_Prime]

If the quests were about the content, yes, there would be a notable down-trend in the content released with this one, therefore it could, from that perspective, be considered worse.

However.

That's not what this quest was about, nor even what the other two cinematic quests were about.

For years now we've been debating back and forth as to what Warframes actually are. Where they come from, how they're made. We've seen plenty of non-obvious lore, such as in the Stalker's Codex, the Crewman's Synthesis and so on. But we've never seen actual, lore confirming, evidence that the Warframes came first, then the Tenno, not the other way around. We've had hints, but never any confirmation, about how much of the Warframes are Infested, technological, or Void powered, we didn't know why they needed Energy when we, the Tenno, were controlling them, any of that.

The Sacrifice has confirmed that the Warframes were the Helminth breed of Infested, injected into living Orokin/Humans to gain a specific result, like Umbra, or even the kind of person that could embrace the pain and make their powers their own with Mirage.

We confirmed that the Warframes are even created Prime first, then Derivative, then Custom (the Deluxe skins), because each one was Ballus messing with a single person to create a different Warframe, then everyone else working on one. As opposed to the way that people think they were done, which is with regular scientists creating the generic and then Ballas creating the Prime as a 'perfected' version. It's why the Gersemi Valkyr skin doesn't break the Lore, nor Valkyr Prime, and completely beats a couple of debate partners I had a while back that were adamant that, logically, you'd create a prototype, which wouldn't be as good, then the showcase model (generic, then Prime).

There are so many debates solved, so many questions answered, so much lore that's been confirmed or blown out of the water...

That's what this quest was about.

Answering the questions. Finishing the process started by The Second Dream which told us what an Operator was, continued by The War Within which told us what Transference was.

The Sacrifice tells us, finally, what a Warframe truly is and why we can control them.

After 4 years of playing this on my current account... this is something I was completely entertained by, not for the generic 'hunt the shiney' missions, not for the 'finally get to stab Ballas for being a smug bastard', and... in a way, not even for the reveal at the end, although that has brought us to the biggest cliff-hanger of them all.

I was entertained because at every step, the final pieces of this puzzle that I've personally been trying to solve for years.

Now we can look forward to what we're actually going to do. As players, as Operators, whatever we do now... that's where the next quests will take us.

[Gandergear]

We don't even get the mastery for Umbra and the skatole (don't correct me on the pronunciation)

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, Buttaface said:

It's simple, they don't want players engaged in massive new content and changes right when a prime access drops, they want players to feel a desire to buy the prime access for new content rather than adapt to massive free content that just dropped last week and ignore the prime access.

Actually, I don't think this is a factor at all. Yes they have monetary interests, but more people were guaranteed to sign in for The Sacrifice than ever were for a new Prime, and the profit is there for them as well with all the Forma that players will be buying for the Exalted Melee changes as well as the new frame.

Quite besides that, it's more likely the Venus Open World that's taken up more of DE's time. All the new assets, all the new voicing, all the new economy and balance changes that will have to be implemented... the new Secondary Weapon style of Zaws will be there, and so on.

If anything's to blame for The Sacrifice not seeming to be as good, it's the Venus stuff. Not the Prime.

[Ternski]

3 минуты назад, Thaylien сказал:

If the quests were about the content, yes, there would be a notable down-trend in the content released with this one, therefore it could, from that perspective, be considered worse.

However.

That's not what this quest was about, nor even what the other two cinematic quests were about.

For years now we've been debating back and forth as to what Warframes actually are. Where they come from, how they're made. We've seen plenty of non-obvious lore, such as in the Stalker's Codex, the Crewman's Synthesis and so on. But we've never seen actual, lore confirming, evidence that the Warframes came first, then the Tenno, not the other way around. We've had hints, but never any confirmation, about how much of the Warframes are Infested, technological, or Void powered, we didn't know why they needed Energy when we, the Tenno, were controlling them, any of that.

The Sacrifice has confirmed that the Warframes were the Helminth breed of Infested, injected into living Orokin/Humans to gain a specific result, like Umbra, or even the kind of person that could embrace the pain and make their powers their own with Mirage.

We confirmed that the Warframes are even created Prime first, then Derivative, then Custom (the Deluxe skins), because each one was Ballus messing with a single person to create a different Warframe, then everyone else working on one. As opposed to the way that people think they were done, which is with regular scientists creating the generic and then Ballas creating the Prime as a 'perfected' version. It's why the Gersemi Valkyr skin doesn't break the Lore, nor Valkyr Prime, and completely beats a couple of debate partners I had a while back that were adamant that, logically, you'd create a prototype, which wouldn't be as good, then the showcase model (generic, then Prime).

There are so many debates solved, so many questions answered, so much lore that's been confirmed or blown out of the water...

That's what this quest was about.

Answering the questions. Finishing the process started by The Second Dream which told us what an Operator was, continued by The War Within which told us what Transference was.

The Sacrifice tells us, finally, what a Warframe truly is and why we can control them.

After 4 years of playing this on my current account... this is something I was completely entertained by, not for the generic 'hunt the shiney' missions, not for the 'finally get to stab Ballas for being a smug bastard', and... in a way, not even for the reveal at the end, although that has brought us to the biggest cliff-hanger of them all.

I was entertained because at every step, the final pieces of this puzzle that I've personally been trying to solve for years.

Now we can look forward to what we're actually going to do. As players, as Operators, whatever we do now... that's where the next quests will take us.

Too many personal feelings here. Not everyone wanted "just some answers". Not everyone wanted them in this form, some voice recordings between Umbra-boy story. They could've been added to the Codex just as well. If it was so focused on the lore - it did its job poorly.
Yet, I am happy that you like it, really. I just can't share that feeling. Sad for me.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Ternski said:

Too many personal feelings here. Not everyone wanted "just some answers". Not everyone wanted them in this form, some voice recordings between Umbra-boy story. They could've been added to the Codex just as well. If it was so focused on the lore - it did its job poorly.
Yet, I am happy that you like it, really. I just can't share that feeling. Sad for me.

You're right, not everyone wanted 'just some answers', but considering how many... I mean, the sheer volume... of lore discussion that goes on on Reddit, the Forums and in game...

There are thousands, if not millions, of players that wanted these answers, and were happy with the quest because of them. The weapon, frame, weird mods and the cliff-hanger that suggests we're going to the Tau system? Icing on the cake.

[Voghelm]

3 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

You're right, not everyone wanted 'just some answers', but considering how many... I mean, the sheer volume... of lore discussion that goes on on Reddit, the Forums and in game...

There are thousands, if not millions, of players that wanted these answers, and were happy with the quest because of them. The weapon, frame, weird mods and the cliff-hanger that suggests we're going to the Tau system? Icing on the cake.

True, it was nice to hear, but a lot of the things that have been said were already implied in the game or speculated by the community, so none of them really were a shocker. For me, anyways.

I'm really glad that many others found ways to enjoy this patch, and honestly, I feel it's a pity I did not enjoy it this much. I really wished it to be mind-bending new chapter of the cinematic storyline, but alas, my mind still isn't bent 😞 

[Buttaface]

9 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Actually, I don't think this is a factor at all. Yes they have monetary interests, but more people were guaranteed to sign in for The Sacrifice than ever were for a new Prime, and the profit is there for them as well with all the Forma that players will be buying for the Exalted Melee changes as well as the new frame.

I do. The above doesn't make any sense, actually counter to sense. What does make sense is introducing a cinematic quest with somewhat less new content compared to other big content quests/patches right before a weak-framed prime access instead of waiting to drop a more extensive patch with the quest weeks after the prime access drops. Get people logging in again for an update and maybe they will buy troll prime next week too. If I were their business people that's exactly what I would do.

[MSI_Revenge]

it feels like since poe they havent put as much effort into things, overall. i will give them major points for weapon balances, especially the beam weapon rework, but they still need to do melee, and melee rebalance i had expected to launch with sacrifice, tbh. because without it, this doesnt feel like enought content to be a "mainline" patch. its an underwhelming quest, with not much in the way of new content to go along with it, but its mainline because they added a new quest. and something thats been hyped forever. id rather have waited longer and had it come out better.(kind of like my feelings on PoE)

[Ternski]

7 минут назад, Thaylien сказал:

You're right, not everyone wanted 'just some answers', but considering how many... I mean, the sheer volume... of lore discussion that goes on on Reddit, the Forums and in game...

There are thousands, if not millions, of players that wanted these answers, and were happy with the quest because of them. The weapon, frame, weird mods and the cliff-hanger that suggests we're going to the Tau system? Icing on the cake.

As I said, sad for me, but I just can't share all the hype. Most of the answers players kinda expected long before, now they are just proven. I am not saying that quest MUST DO THIS MY WAY. But it really was a bit... shorter than it could've been. A bit more effort in the lore, maybe a bit more choice for player? 

I love the lore part. I love the Lotus part and her final words was incredibly inspiring. I just wanted it a bit more, then just "between". That's what I am talking about. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

You aren’t alone OP.

1. It felt like Apostacy Part 2

2.  The “short-cut” of 3 guy’s sitting in a room playing a board game eviscerated much of the emotional impact that could have been...THIS IS WARFRAME.

-The battle for the Lua Cross cinematic?  that gives us lore and character development?  Nope. A fuzzy painting.

-The big reveal as an Infested monster who kills his own son? A “mini-game” where you run from your father as Isaah to bring that moment to a visceral level?  Nope.  Sound effect with fade to black.

Ballas genuinely loving Margulis was a nice touch, but for all the grandeur and build up for such a potentially awesome and complex character, he came across as weak and short-sighted.

The shocking moment at the end foretelling War left everything unresolved and even more confusing.

What am I to make of Margu-Lo-Tah?

1.  Is she the Queen of the Mimics who played EVERYONE (including her father to maintain cover)?

2.  Did Natah “Total Recall” herself into believing she WAS Lotus until Ballas woke her?

3.  Is this a “Jeff Goldblum in the Fly” scenario and she is compelled to be this way?   “I’m a fly who dreamed he was a man, but now that dream is gone.”

4.  Was the Helm the collective memories and Soul of Margulis that allowed Natah to Dream “not of what you are, but what you want to be”?

I don’t know...the bigger problem is that Apathy is starting to set in because my emotional investment has been rewarded by ambiguity and confusion.

The quest feels like every aspect was compressed versus previous...

My thought at the end:

”Was this just part of a bigger cinematic quest they are going to surprise us with at Tennocon?”

If the next quest is a year or more away...for the first time...I feel myself joining the camp that has lost that feeling of excitement and anticipation surrounding this wonderful Lore-verse they need to nurture.

And no amount of open world goodies can fill that...VOID.

Edited June 17, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[DrakeWurrum]

Eh. I'm in complete disagreement. The reveals in the quest were somewhat expected (i.e. Warframes are infested Dax soldiers), and otherwise not THAT shocking (Ballas betrayed the Orokin because they killed Margulis), sure. If you wanna put this as "compared to previous quests" sure.

But the quest was still intense, full of feels, and leaves me wanting more. There's more questions unanswered, and I'm hoping the wait for the next cinematic quest (where I assume we head to Tau to chase down the Lotus? Or maybe we have to fight off a new Sentient invasion?) won't be even longer than this one. 580 days is a loooong wait.

I think the major delay for this quest coming out was the UI change. That had to be the heaviest work of all, from a coding and artwork perspective.

Edited June 17, 2018 by DrakeWurrum