Returning Player - Ash - not fun

[FarStike]

Greetings all. I took a sabbatical from Warframe (WF) for +- a year. WF Burnout and life stuff. Returned to the game and convinced my fiancee to try WF out - good call.

My WF fun was primarily from playing Void with Ash. Typically survival and hitting the hour plus mark. This was extreme fun, challenging and enjoyable. Lots of changes in WF as expected and the game UI looks very professional. For the life of me I could not figure out how to use Ash's BS (Blade Storm). Keeping in mind that as a returning player I am completely out of touch with changes in the game's mechanics and happenings in the forum. As a player who used to main Ash, he had specifically been built around using BS in high level and challenging content.

Surely a game changing mechanic should be "intuitive"? Honestly I could not figure how to use BS and found it quite frustrating. The only fun part I got out of the run was that my fiancee enjoyed (overall) her WF experience which means we will probably be spending time together here rather than Diablo.

How other Ash players choose to play him - with which abilities and which maps is up to their preference. No worries. Stated mine already - pushing high end content or pushing my abilities or lack thereof. My concern is a major change to a primary mechanic which is no longer intuitive as to how to use it.

Thanks for the feedback platform and hope this helps the devs see from a returning player's perspective. Keep up the fantastic work.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Blade storm is usually used on its own. You can enter a room cloaked, quickly mark then lauch bs against as many as you can then clean up the rest.

I highly suggest against building as many marks as possible personally. 5s marking peroids are usually more than enough and you can start marking right after. I suggest this because its too common that your targets will die before you have the chance to launch bladestorm. Sometimes i quickly toggle bladestorm when my weapon is reloading, as it does not interupt the reload and can usually kill what i was shooting.

Generally he can do well on any map in a similar fashion to mesa. Just more e mobile, invisable, and witha delay on his 4th.

Best advice tho, dont rely entirely on bladestorm. Use seeking shuriken for armor stripping and a good crit build weapon.

Edited July 2, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[AXCrusnik]

BS is a two part ability now. You don't just aim at an enemy, hit 4 and start slicing.

Press 4, mark enemies by putting your crosshair over them (this costs energy, but if they die by something other than BS the cost is refunded. Each enemy can be marked up to 3 times, and the cost for marking is cut in half when invisible), then press 4 again to murder.

Edited July 2, 2018 by AXCrusnik

[Aleksi134]

He doesnt anymore just press 4 to win. You have to wiggle your mouse at enemies and press 4 twice this time. Which is annoying and bad at registering at times. Use melee with invinsibility, good damage alternative,alongside seeking shuriken or fatal teleport augment.

[Easymac]

I was just testing this out at the simulacrum actually.
Press 4. Mark enemies. Press 4 again. (similar to the Hit man games, or splinter cell games)

This doesn't interrupt your other game play (shooting /reloading / parkour)
Press 4, Sweep the area with your reticle, and press 4 again, and clean up what you missed.

 

[FarStike]

Thanks for the quick feedback. Press 4 to Mark - mouseover all repeatedly - then press 4 to execute sounds really unwieldy. Thats more a strategy approach than tactical imho - not liking the sound of this at all lol. How does it feel like to use? (those of you who use it in the normal course of playing)

With regards the invisibility - unless there are more changes here than are apparent from above comments - my Ash was built for strength which had a duration penalty. Think invisibility is down to approximately 1.1 seconds which means its an ability that I just never use. Previously when I wanted an invis build I just went Loki for those runs. Is there a change that effects invis?

Thanks again for the constructive feedback.

[More-L]

While invis BS energy cost per mark is reduced (halved I think) so you want to be invis when marking. 

In 'high level' missions you should have enough duration to go invis then mark a few heavy units 3 times each. You obviously don't have to do that if you are confident you can kill them with 1/2 marks but that's just for a baseline.

[Babellon]

once you get the hang of it ash becomes quite simple much like before. you can mark as many enemies as you have energy for but will drop marks if you move to far from them. you're free to move about and quick kill with bs or join in using teleport immediately after casting, or as long as bs is active. 

Its quite fun in my opinion to walk through a room marking them, then go into a loot room or something and just let them die while I pick up. In higher end stuff your invisibility helps, obviously, and bs allows you mobility as well as steady damage output, with some energy conservation, not spamming uncontrollably, you can stay on top of the hordes.

[(PSN)teacup775]

leave 4 on, stealth (because energy cost of bs marks lower), enter guns blazing or slash away, tap 4 after a bunch marked, continue on with shooting, rinse repeat.

often enemies stream in thru halls, in stealth you can just run past them and trigger 4

invest in a good dagger zaw with high attack speed, 25 status and 18 crit. blade storm or not, everything is gibbed with one. 

[kyori]

After many backlashes from players, DE now concentrate on 'balance' rather than fun. What previously deem fun to many players were seen as unbalanced because of complains from some players, so DE changed all those fun stuffs.

[(PSN)Yetchii]

You can also use Teleport while BS is storming to join the BS cutscene, making it the same as it was before.

[FarStike]

Thanks guys. Trying really hard not to be negative to myself with these changes and not doing a really good job at it lol. So to get it the way it was before - I have to press 3 buttons and take time to scan/aim/something (probably the most time intensive). Hmmm. Not understanding the development thought behind these changes.

You mention a good dagger. I use Dual Ichor as my go-to Melee weapon. Still good?

Ash build - Looking for some guidance here please. Will login later today to see what mods I'm using and post here for reference. As mentioned above I had my build orientated to be strength based with a bit of range to use the ability at higher levels. (Void T4S long runs). The negative to that build (which I was fine with then) was my smokescreen/invis only lasted about 1.1 secs so never used that ability. I do have two of those extras which give invisibility on proc. In syandra and something else (can't recall offhand)

Really looking forward to seeing good builds with these changes.

Otherwise anyone who has changed away from Ash with these weird game mechanics, what frames have you moved to? ( Basically undecided until I find something that's fun and suits my playstyle. Chose not to take advantage of that 50% off plat special running as it's not working for me as is lol. Besides will be playing a supportive role to my fiancee whilst she builds up her fun element in wf which means I'm not going t be pushing gameplay for a bit)

Thanks again and will post my build info later.

[FarStike]

Ok logged in and looking at WF build now. Huh Arcane slots on WF. Thats new 🙂

All mods at max rank excepting Blind Rage which is level 8. Currently 11/78 capacity points free.

Steel Charge, Handspring

Blind Rage, Redirection, Armoured Agility, Primed Flow

Transient Fortitude, Steel Fiber, Fleeting Expertise and Streamline.

+50% Energy Max, +200% Health, +200% Shield

I have a slight varient on the above build which reduces Strength to 185% but increases Efficiency to 160%

Open to your guidance 🙂

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb FarStike:

Thanks for the quick feedback. Press 4 to Mark - mouseover all repeatedly - then press 4 to execute sounds really unwieldy. Thats more a strategy approach than tactical imho - not liking the sound of this at all lol. How does it feel like to use? (those of you who use it in the normal course of playing)

With regards the invisibility - unless there are more changes here than are apparent from above comments - my Ash was built for strength which had a duration penalty. Think invisibility is down to approximately 1.1 seconds which means its an ability that I just never use. Previously when I wanted an invis build I just went Loki for those runs. Is there a change that effects invis?

Thanks again for the constructive feedback.

A few. But first, it isn't entirely true that he isn't "p4tw" anymore. With his passive, shurikens deal a little less but overall about the same damage bladestorm did back then before combo mods were implemented (same strength used minus range penalty results in ~6,5k over 6s vs.~5k in 10s). Its augument 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Seeking_Shuriken

adds to that by compensating for the minor damage or dps loss by adding support. They were changed at some point to aim propperly and ignore the envirement and used range so you get the results of a soft AoE ability on static 60m range on spamming them.

For reference

 

As for invisibility, once your mods reach the current maximum, on max efficiency, it is quite possible for him to have positive duration on neutral range. They key to this are mods that were implemented  including

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Primed_Continuity

 http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Umbral_Vitality

And 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Umbral_Intensify

As upgrade to this kinda build

Shuriken build final https://imgur.com/gallery/TJVJ3x5

That's still only 8-9s of invisibility but that's plenty to close some gaps. While using shurikens or running trough the map a huras kubrow or shade are able to keep you cloaked (preferably huras)

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Huras_Kubrow

And arcane trickery is able to trigger 20s invisibility windows on Bladestorm use

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_Trickery

(Common dropp but also avaiable for about 20p/piece, what makes 200p for an entire set) 

So there's little point in going hardcore on your duration OR using other frames.

Combine these and Bladestorm remains as a burst button to clear things fast, for extra invisibility and for high levels. That's less unwieldy then it sounds like.... there's few frames that have this choice at all, the one between supporting mid level aoe and high level aoe with a little build up... and most of them don't even provide the numbers ash does.... if they do then it's glass cannons with some even worse buildup or other restrictions like range (equinox and gara are the only ones that come to mind really. Equinox is a glass cannon and gara has it as close range aura).  Just stick to "p1tw" for your everyday uses and you'll do just fine.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[FarStike]

WoW!! Thanks Cool. I'm still digesting your thread lol. Had to do a bit of research whilst reading it and see a whole lot of new mods to acquire. With regards Arcane Trickery I have 2 of those maxed so good to go there. The Kubrows I stay away from. Have nine pets at home and these ones are more pt lol. So sentinel it remains. Really like the pointer for Shade. I have it but rarely used it. The Vacuum mod was a new release when I took a break so was always stuck using Carrier/P. Happy to revisit that. Ws thinking of using Helios for the scanning but Shade really sounds like a good one.

Your video - thanks for that. I've never seen Shuriken used to much. My style has never been press 4 to win. But I loved using 4 for the effect as well as the animations. Dunno why - I loved them but seems there are a lot of haters in the forum with regards the animations. Honestly I miss that. I'd use Synoid Syndicor (spelling?) as primary weapon for energy but do most damage with my Dual Ichors (I like melee). Then when things got a bit intense would do a bit of map clearance with 4. Which also let me take a breath lol.

Teleport I'm going to chalk up to user error - I could very rarely actually get it to work. Invis was never historically an option with my build. Will revisit as per your suggestions.

Ok having played a bit using the rework using BS I can see it is usable. The negatives however from my perspective are:

1: I often cannot tell if BS is actually working. Sometimes yes, mostly cannot tell.

2: It's unwieldy imho

3: It just isn't fun anymore. At the end of the day that's the most important pointer for me. This is a game, fantasy retreat etc. We cannot do those moves in RL so I always got a kick out of the old animations.

I will keep working with your suggestions from above and see over a week or so if Ash still remains fun to play or whether I should change frames. I really would prefer not to but we work with the cards we are dealt.

Any suggestions for controllers? I'm struggling with the new layout. Used to have all powers linked to the cross buttons below the LS. Tried changing them but the config always throws an error about a Focus? and will not save changes.

Other frames I used for situations are: Frost (Defense), Chroma (Farming), Valkyr(Melee Fun), Trinity(Chaos Fun) and Nova(Speed/Slow). But Ash was my go-to frame.

Any more suggestions to playing or modding Ash then please shout. Cheers

[Rawbeard]

it's the most fun iteration of Ash. sending out murderous pokemon swarms is hillarious

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb FarStike:

The Kubrows I stay away from. Have nine pets at home and these ones are more pt lol.

You do you but i recommend it over shade cause it's invisibility is more...reliable. Idk what they did different there but the windows you're cloaked are way longer and the damage is no joke eather ever since the hunter set was implemented (currently dropps in the plains of eidolon. They're on the rotation of thede ghoul alerts.)

 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb FarStike:

1: I often cannot tell if BS is actually working. Sometimes yes, mostly cannot tell.

That one you get used to. You'll notice a color change on marking and the UI over BS's symbol shows how many enemys you have marked. Upon activation the number reduces and is ready to use once it's back at zero. While it kills you can use teleport on any enemy to join in just like it used to be.

The current version is an upgrade to what it was changed to in between, nothing but animation. Ash did all the strikes by himself, shadows took care of the second and third mark on enemys. The majority didn't like it so that's why we are where we are. But you know, for an ability with that kinda damage potential it works out quite well. Just try not to focus on it too much. Use it when opportinuty strikes.

You see a wave comming? Mark over them. Chaos? Mark. And while clones do theyr thing you do yours. With the combo changes (mods, naramon focus) it deals damage on levels current melee does. To put it in numbers...

On the kinda build i've posted, with 195% power strength you get 3.900 damage setting enemys up for another 17.400 damage trough slash proccs wo combo, a totall of 42.600 damage with a 2x multiplier, 85k with a 4x multiplier aso. Per mark. So as a ability, it's able to fight for you on its own. Just consider its current form a extension of your weapon. Especially when using melee.

Edited July 3, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

@FarStike

Ash can clear the whole starchart Solo with just Common starting mods. Or no mods at all if you're good enough. He is powerful.

Just out of curiosity, does BS feel unintuitive due to it's visuals?

Anyway, you have two ways of using it. Either always on, WoF-style, and release whenever you feel like it. Or turn marking on when the situation calls for it. Initially you will probably wiggle your mouse, but with some practice and good reflex aim you can mark crowds in a single swipe (multimarking is largely pointless anyway)

You can join BS by using Teleport, regardless if the target is marked or not, which is the sh*tty mechanic DE came up with, instead of, y'know, put the 'join in' on the BS key that isn't even used during execution phase, but that's a topic that has been discussed to death already.

Shuriken is better than BS by default up to lvl30s, and with the augment it can still be useful at high levels.

Weapons recomended:

 -Venka Prime, since it builds up the combo counter faster.

 -Single Dagger, due to Covert Lethality.

 -Skiaj- the katana you get after new quest, it makes you invisible for 5s when you kill with a Finisher, good for NoDuration builds. (though you could use Arcane Trickery to same effect)

 

As for builds. I currently have two builds that I use on a whim but both are well capable of tremendous arse kickery. The X/Y represent mods I change based on the mission or on a whim.

My Old All Purpose:

Steel Charge, Handspring (exilus).

Vitality, Steel Fiber, Primed Continuity/Rending Turn, Augment*

Vigilante Pursuit/Enemy Sense, Hunter Adrenaline/Rage, Vigilante recharge-shield-mod/Armored Agility, and Primed Flow.

 

My new and shiny build** made with mods from the new cinematic quest:

Hunter Adrenaline, all 3 new mods, Augment*, Rending Turn/normal Continuity,  Primed Flow, Vigilante Pursuit/Enemy Sense.

 

I do go to nearly all missions with my Huras though, since he has more range for invisility and can oneshot most enemies up to lvl70s. Also because of Hunter Recovery mod which makes the Doge heal you on a % of the damage it deals, so you can easily recover health and rage-tank to refill energy, and since you can use Pack Leader to heal him/her in turn, it makes for the perfect melee match.

 

* Rising Storm augment is never used because it's pointless to do so

**You can't add the new polarity with Forma, so you need to Forma around it. And for my build to work I have to run the new mods at 9/10.

[Nazrethim]

hace 27 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

That one you get used to. You'll notice a color change on marking and the UI over BS's symbol shows how many enemys you have marked. Upon activation the number reduces and is ready to use once it's back at zero. While it kills you can use teleport on any enemy to join in just like it used to be.

Slightly off-topic. We could use a visual tweak there, like having Marking Phase be the smoky monochrome we know, while execution phase drops the monochrome filter but keeps the smoke effect on Ash till the Execution Phase is over. Would make for a better and more intuitive indicator than a small number on the far corner of the UI (which could stay as it is for those who run on no-graphics).

[FarStike]

@Nazrethim thanks for the info. Yes I feel disconnected by the UI. Summed up nicely. I'm also a controller user not kbd and mouse. Wrist injury means I need to go controller unfortunately. Also I'm more into higher level content for personal reasons as opposed to the default map. Except for specific alerts/syndicates. Interested in your new shiny build and will run with it for a while later. 

Thanks again all for the input.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

focus something something war with in quest.