Please go back as Ash Storm's ability was before

[(PSN)JoelsonMS]

Like a real ninja. There are MANY players who want this skill as it was back. There are others who complained about it being too exaggerated. But no one is forced to play with an Ash in the match. Or if you create a filter where you can choose which Warframes are going to enter your game or leave it free, even because, as a matter of gameplay the person himself can get sick and want to diversify. Natural selection will be made, but please put the Storm ability as it was. Thank you. =]

[KirukaChan]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

Natural selection will be made

It already happened. Bladestorm was claimed by natural selection.

[peterc3]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

Or if you create a filter where you can choose which Warframes are going to enter your game or leave it free

This is never going to happen. Same as Bladestorm being returned to its original form.

[Birdframe_Prime]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

put the Storm ability as it was.

Which version? We've had about four... XD

But in all serious nature... no. Bladestorm was plainly ridiculous when it was a 'press 4 to attack up to 18 times for damage that completely bypassed resistances'. It completely over-shadowed the entire rest of his kit, to the point where modding to get the best Bladestorm allowed players to ignore literally everything else he did.

Ash was literally the poster-boy of the 'Press 4 to Win' era, and there is no way he's going back to that.

While there are improvements that could be made to Bladestorm we will never, ever, and I do mean ever, be getting back the original form of Bladestorm.

[(XBOX)MintyFreshMike]

Sometimes I wish I started playing when a lot of frames were op. I would have really enjoyed the old Mag that was the bane of the corpus 

[(PSN)JoelsonMS]

I wanted to understand one thing, will DE really see this post of mine? What is the possibility of this happening? Do you need a petition or what? And yes, use the 4 ability to win. It's what I want, many want and that's all that matters. Those who do not want to play with an Ash on the team, simply get out of the squad and find another randomly full of mimimi people not liking Ash because of their fourth ability, or form a squad in their own right. That's the natural selection I'm talking about. Thanks to everyone who is interacting.

[Aeon94]

There is a chance for DE to see this but I'm sure your thread will be ignored like the ones before yours. DE doesn't want BladeStorm to be a generic nuke with 1 button tap.

He is awesome and feels more like a ninja now. Better stay that way.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Aeon94

[(PSN)JoelsonMS]

In fact, he has become more useless than ever. If before the people used only his skill, today it will not even be used. The mechanics are annoying. But to do what, always what is good take even and pay attention to banal things. Patience itself. ^^

[KochDerFrettchen]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)MintyFreshMike said:

Sometimes I wish I started playing when a lot of frames were op. I would have really enjoyed the old Mag that was the bane of the corpus 

Instead of current Mag, who is the bane of corpus and grineer? 😛

10 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

I wanted to understand one thing, will DE really see this post of mine? What is the possibility of this happening? Do you need a petition or what? And yes, use the 4 ability to win. It's what I want, many want and that's all that matters. Those who do not want to play with an Ash on the team, simply get out of the squad and find another randomly full of mimimi people not liking Ash because of their fourth ability, or form a squad in their own right. That's the natural selection I'm talking about. Thanks to everyone who is interacting.

Yeah no, Ash's 4 was bad for more reasons than people not playing him disliking it.  One-button-heroes are boring, poorly designed characters.

[Emulad0or]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

use the 4 ability to win. It's what I want, many want and that's all that matters.

And many don't want that (me included). What matters is what DE wants. It is their game after all, and that means that sometimes all we have left is to complain about how terrible we feel something is ^{_{like volt's speed still affecting teammates like a disease...}} 

[Birdframe_Prime]

There is a full community relations team who read through the Forums and the sub-Reddit and Twitter daily. They might not catch everything, but there's a very high chance they'll see it.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

It's what I want, many want and that's all that matters.

Well good for you, you're wrong though. What matters is that DE know how people play their game and have all the statistics, they also have a goal in mind for each of their frames, where they want them to be, how they want to balance them.

While you, and others, want this... you are vastly outweighed by the thousands of others, over 4 years of the game before he was changed, saying they didn't want a pres-4-to-win frame. The same change has happened across multiple other frames, like Saryn, who used to be a nuke frame with Miasma, like Mag, who used to be a nuke frame with Shield Polarise, like Excalibur, who used to be a nuke frame with Radial Javelin... All of them had their style changed so that they did more damage, more reliable effects, but lost that non-scaling nuke function.

DE made the change to Ash because of constant desire from the community to change Bladestorm. You are genuinely never going to gain enough of a following to change their minds or even get close to getting them to actually revert it.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

In fact, he has become more useless than ever.

I will direct you to a particular player and content creator: LifeofRio.

This man can take Ash for hours and hours of solo play on the highest difficulty modes in the game. He records his play, he streams it, he proves that he can do what he says he does, unlike hundreds of other players I can name. He is a dedicated end-game player who takes Warframes on multi-hour survival runs for fun. It's his preferred way to play, and his favourite frame is Ash. Go to the link, look him up.

Ash's damage has not been changed, his time-to-kill speed has not dropped, in fact because you can target so many more enemies with his 4 than you could before, and because you can guarantee 2 additional attacks on enemies, which you couldn't before, and because you aren't forced to join in with the slide-show anymore freeing you up to use your other abilities and your weapons at the same time...

Bladestorm is flat out better than before.

I mean, what people fail to understand is that old Bladestorm just had 18 attacks, you couldn't guarantee which enemies you hit beyond the first, and if there were less than 18 available only then would you attack one of them twice, but at random. 1 mark from Ash new Bladestorm is the same as 1 attack from old Bladestorm, so now that you can specifically tag an enemy up to 3 times, you can reliably deal 3x the damage you could previously to each enemy, and you can do it to just one enemy, or dozens and you can do it without being locked in the animation yourself. If there was only 1 enemy in the room with you and you pressed 4, you would be stuck attacking over and over and over until that enemy died. When what usually kills enemies from Bladestorm is not the initial stab, it's the massive Bleed damage you deal after it, the old way just looked ridiculous. 2000 True Damage with a 100% chance of a Bleed means at base you're dealing 8750 Bleed damage due to his passive making bleeds stronger and longer. 10,750 True Damage total will kill any enemy on the star chart, no exceptions. But that was old Bladestorm. Three attacks of that, from new Bladestorm, for a total of about 18 Energy when you're invisible (plus the cost of his 2, so 68 energy at base, so it's still cheaper than base cost of old Bladestorm) means you can kill any enemy up to Kuva Flood level with an un-modded Ash.

Give him Ability Strength, Efficiency and the melee combo counter scaling? And this ability wrecks everything. Literally everything. Old Bladestorm is looking on these numbers and falling down on its knees in worship. Even with just 30% Efficiency new Bladestorm costs only 8.4 energy to attack 1 enemy for the same damage that old Bladestorm did. To attack 18 enemies it's more than old Bladestorm, sure, until you take off the cost for being invisible, which is a grand total of 93 energy including the cast of Smoke Screen. It's cheaper than before just for those 18 hits you would have dealt with old Bladestorm.

Are there improvements that could be made? Sure, like pressing 4 again to join in instead of 3, because the current setup means you can't always use your 3 just in case it makes you join in when you don't want to. The bonus for being invisible when you start tagging enemies could be improved to make it cost a little less per tag, that would be nice.

But this is a far superior ability to what it used to be, especially from a game design point of view; just like Nekros previously needing to stand still and cast 3 every time somebody killed an enemy, and now it's an Aura that he can turn on and leave going, means that he can run around, cast his other abilities, use his weapons and is all-around better for the change. Ash has now had that same buff. He's not tied to only 18 attacks, he's not tied to randomly picking his enemies, he's not forced into long animations, he's able to run around and use his other abilities and his weapons as much as he likes...

The Warframe known as Ash is better with this ability than he ever was with his press-4-to-win strategy.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

you cant really use RIO as a benchmark for things like that XD

 

that said even Rio has mentioned that the damage of Bladestorm is not all that great above a certain point and that just using Seeking shruiken and your weapon, and not relying on just bladestorm is going to be the key to it.

those numbers mean very little when i can hit for that much on a dozen or so other warframe abilities that are instant. even abilities that so massively outpace Bladestorm DPS potential that its like those bleeds are standing still..

 

i dont want to see press 4 ash... it seems excessively boring and even if it was the old activation with the new "not forced into the cutscene stuff", it would be inventive.

 

but it needs something to compensate for the slowness of the ability.. for the lack of use against lower level enemies and the fact that in group play you will likely lose the marks before you can use them. 

Ash doesnt preform as well in groups as he should.. all frames need to have some group synergy and currently (and previously) ash effectively has none beyond "KILL DA THINGS".

Not counting Augments...

[Nazrethim]

Ash needs some further tweaks to smooth odd design flaws out, but other than that he's on a good spot.

And old BS, pre-nerf BS, was poorly designed and should never come back, unless it returns with an anti-spam gimmick (like having to build up by using his other abilities or something else related to his theme).

[Grimmstyler]

How much I'd love for Ash to go back to original due to that ridiculous marking enemies +++ times compared to other Frames Nuke abilities..

Ash really turns out to be effective at Ranged high level.. Modding for [Seeking Shuriken] Armor Reduction..

BladeStorm marking seems to be most effective during Melee Attacking.. Making Ash another Melee Frame..

Really BladeStorm seems most effective at high level enemies due to BladeStorm ignores enemies Armor.. Smoke (ability 2) halves the cost of BladeStorm..

Ash is not that bad of a Survival Frame.. But if you have a Defense Target, you might need a CC Frame or something else to divert Projectile attacks from enemies on the Defense Target..

Edited July 18, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[Sasuda]

Currently Ash's Bladestorm is mechanically alright other than:

• it's Energy cost is too high for what it does
• Getting marks on targets is more annoying than it should be.

I still have changes I would make to it myself, though I won't suggest that rework here.

He's overall pretty slow feeling I find. I think it's mostly his need to focus so much on individual targets for all of his abilities. Just needs some more generous targeting to fix that for the most part. Teleport is actually the part of his kit I'd say is most in need of tweaks.

I think while activated Bladestorm should auto-target any enemy within a hard (unmoddable) 5m. Would make his teleport a lot nicer to use as part of his kit. Also enemies hit by shuriken should be added targets. Dropping targets out of the range limit is really lame and an unnecessary limit when he already has to go for LOS marking. If Ash has targeted them, they should remain targeted until his ability is released.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Sasuda

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Spam 1?

 

Current shuriken have a similar range, damage and firerate as bladestorm had back at the beginning before combo mods were implemented.

If you're asking for a 50m range, 100k finisher damage aimbot...really?

 

... nah seriously. Really?

Edited July 18, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

hace 18 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Spam 1?

 

Current shuriken have a similar range, damage and firerate as bladestorm had back at the beginning before combo mods were implemented.

If you're asking for a 50m range, 100k finisher damage aimbot...really?

 

... nah seriously. Really?

Wierd, I don't recall Shuriken dealing 1800 finisher damage (affected by PowSTR, Combo multiplier and Steel charge). Or did you meant Closed Beta Blade Storm?

Pre-nerf BS:

100 Energy cost (regardless of targets). 18 targets (so that's about 5.5 energy per target). 18 attacks. 18m cast range and 18m radius around the target.

The 50m range came after the nerf. And I don't know what cheat you are using that gets 100k finisher damage. BS deals 2000 Finisher. Add Steel Charge and it's 3200. Add 100% PowSTR and you get to 6200. Add a x3 combo counter and you get to 18600.

It only reaches 100k if you account for the total damage of Bleeds, which aren't really accountable until beyond-Sortie levels due to the fact this game demands you to kill in enemies in less than 3s on average, so waiting the 9s for them to tick is silly in general. At best you could account for the first 3 ticks which are usually the ones that matter. At ~8100 per tick that's a 24300 extra damage, for a total of ~43k.

Of course, that only applies if you have 200% PowSTR, a 3x combo counter (not hard to get really but non-existent if you favor gunplay over melee or mix them) and Steel Charge (which has been the defacto aura for Ash since ancient times anyway).

Saying "it deals 100k finisher damage" is misleading.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Nazrethim:

Wierd, I don't recall Shuriken dealing 1800 finisher damage (affected by PowSTR, Combo multiplier and Steel charge). Or did you meant Closed Beta Blade Storm?

Pre-nerf BS:

100 Energy cost (regardless of targets). 18 targets (so that's about 5.5 energy per target). 18 attacks. 18m cast range and 18m radius around the target.

The 50m range came after the nerf. And I don't know what cheat you are using that gets 100k finisher damage. BS deals 2000 Finisher. Add Steel Charge and it's 3200. Add 100% PowSTR and you get to 6200. Add a x3 combo counter and you get to 18600.

It only reaches 100k if you account for the total damage of Bleeds, which aren't really accountable until beyond-Sortie levels due to the fact this game demands you to kill in enemies in less than 3s on average, so waiting the 9s for them to tick is silly in general. At best you could account for the first 3 ticks which are usually the ones that matter. At ~8100 per tick that's a 24300 extra damage, for a total of ~43k.

Of course, that only applies if you have 200% PowSTR, a 3x combo counter (not hard to get really but non-existent if you favor gunplay over melee or mix them) and Steel Charge (which has been the defacto aura for Ash since ancient times anyway).

Saying "it deals 100k finisher damage" is misleading.

1800 base, 50m range with max range aka -60% strength to begin with

Mod wise 2 slots occupied. From there you could or had to balance: 3-5 mods on 6 slots, later 8 when auguments replaced ability mods.

On the same strength mods used (for example transient fortitude) same range base that's 155% strength vs 95%.

775 damage triggering 10 proccs for 43,75% damage, 339 damage per procc, 3.390 totall damage vs

1.710 damage triggering 7 proccs for 33%, 560 damage per procc, 5.600 damage totall. 

Max strength is currently (power drift, umbra intensify like r2, blind rage, transient, growing power x1) 349%

1.745 damage, 763 damage/procc, 7.630 damage totall

Prior bladestorm could do (intensify, blind rage, transient - overextendet) 224% strength

4.032 damage, 1.330 procc, 9.300 totall

While sacrificing eather duration, efficiency, energy, energy management. Worst case all of those.

It could possibly be 5.000 damage better per interaction, didn't have support (armor drain, in contrary, it eliminated other damage) worse efficiency (worst case negative efficiency vs 135%+primed flow + rage) and targeted 18 enemys per cast and wait where current shuriken can be spammed indefinitly with enough damage working for you.

 

There sure was a time where combo affected it (and actually did something). That's the reason it was nerfed so i'm not exactly counting that one.

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Natfrog123]

On 2018-07-17 at 4:01 PM, Thaylien said:

There is a full community relations team who read through the Forums and the sub-Reddit and Twitter daily. They might not catch everything, but there's a very high chance they'll see it.

Well good for you, you're wrong though. What matters is that DE know how people play their game and have all the statistics, they also have a goal in mind for each of their frames, where they want them to be, how they want to balance them.

While you, and others, want this... you are vastly outweighed by the thousands of others, over 4 years of the game before he was changed, saying they didn't want a pres-4-to-win frame. The same change has happened across multiple other frames, like Saryn, who used to be a nuke frame with Miasma, like Mag, who used to be a nuke frame with Shield Polarise, like Excalibur, who used to be a nuke frame with Radial Javelin... All of them had their style changed so that they did more damage, more reliable effects, but lost that non-scaling nuke function.

DE made the change to Ash because of constant desire from the community to change Bladestorm. You are genuinely never going to gain enough of a following to change their minds or even get close to getting them to actually revert it.

I will direct you to a particular player and content creator: LifeofRio.

This man can take Ash for hours and hours of solo play on the highest difficulty modes in the game. He records his play, he streams it, he proves that he can do what he says he does, unlike hundreds of other players I can name. He is a dedicated end-game player who takes Warframes on multi-hour survival runs for fun. It's his preferred way to play, and his favourite frame is Ash. Go to the link, look him up.

Ash's damage has not been changed, his time-to-kill speed has not dropped, in fact because you can target so many more enemies with his 4 than you could before, and because you can guarantee 2 additional attacks on enemies, which you couldn't before, and because you aren't forced to join in with the slide-show anymore freeing you up to use your other abilities and your weapons at the same time...

Bladestorm is flat out better than before.

I mean, what people fail to understand is that old Bladestorm just had 18 attacks, you couldn't guarantee which enemies you hit beyond the first, and if there were less than 18 available only then would you attack one of them twice, but at random. 1 mark from Ash new Bladestorm is the same as 1 attack from old Bladestorm, so now that you can specifically tag an enemy up to 3 times, you can reliably deal 3x the damage you could previously to each enemy, and you can do it to just one enemy, or dozens and you can do it without being locked in the animation yourself. If there was only 1 enemy in the room with you and you pressed 4, you would be stuck attacking over and over and over until that enemy died. When what usually kills enemies from Bladestorm is not the initial stab, it's the massive Bleed damage you deal after it, the old way just looked ridiculous. 2000 True Damage with a 100% chance of a Bleed means at base you're dealing 8750 Bleed damage due to his passive making bleeds stronger and longer. 10,750 True Damage total will kill any enemy on the star chart, no exceptions. But that was old Bladestorm. Three attacks of that, from new Bladestorm, for a total of about 18 Energy when you're invisible (plus the cost of his 2, so 68 energy at base, so it's still cheaper than base cost of old Bladestorm) means you can kill any enemy up to Kuva Flood level with an un-modded Ash.

Give him Ability Strength, Efficiency and the melee combo counter scaling? And this ability wrecks everything. Literally everything. Old Bladestorm is looking on these numbers and falling down on its knees in worship. Even with just 30% Efficiency new Bladestorm costs only 8.4 energy to attack 1 enemy for the same damage that old Bladestorm did. To attack 18 enemies it's more than old Bladestorm, sure, until you take off the cost for being invisible, which is a grand total of 93 energy including the cast of Smoke Screen. It's cheaper than before just for those 18 hits you would have dealt with old Bladestorm.

Are there improvements that could be made? Sure, like pressing 4 again to join in instead of 3, because the current setup means you can't always use your 3 just in case it makes you join in when you don't want to. The bonus for being invisible when you start tagging enemies could be improved to make it cost a little less per tag, that would be nice.

But this is a far superior ability to what it used to be, especially from a game design point of view; just like Nekros previously needing to stand still and cast 3 every time somebody killed an enemy, and now it's an Aura that he can turn on and leave going, means that he can run around, cast his other abilities, use his weapons and is all-around better for the change. Ash has now had that same buff. He's not tied to only 18 attacks, he's not tied to randomly picking his enemies, he's not forced into long animations, he's able to run around and use his other abilities and his weapons as much as he likes...

The Warframe known as Ash is better with this ability than he ever was with his press-4-to-win strategy.

"I will direct you to a particular player and content creator: LifeofRio."

I watched his videos... you know what he NEVER uses? 

Bladestorm..... In the 3 videos I watched on Ash on his channel I never once saw the guy use bladestorm.

He was invis and spamming fatale teleport 90% of the time with the other 10% mele spam.

This proves exactly what the OP said.

Bladestorm is completely unused and needs to be fixed.

I'm using YOUR reference in my dialog here.

[Nazrethim]

En 18/7/2018 a las 15:21, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

1800 base, 50m range with max range aka -60% strength to begin with

Actually, at 18m range+18m radius, it had an effective range of 36m. So max range wasn't even needed. Just adding Stretch would have gotten to 50m range with no -PowSTR. You just can't think beyond Corrupted Mods, can ya?

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

Actually, at 18m range+18m radius, it had an effective range of 36m. So max range wasn't even needed. Just adding Stretch would have gotten to 50m range with no -PowSTR. You just can't think beyond Corrupted Mods, can ya?

 

Current shuriken have a static 60m range covering enemys so that much is a given.

[Nazrethim]

hace 34 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Current shuriken have a static 60m range covering enemys so that much is a given.

Again, are you comparing current Shuriken to closed beta Blade Storm? That Blade Storm did Slash damage (or rather, Blade damage) so the comparison kinda makes sense if that's the case.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

Again, are you comparing current Shuriken to closed beta Blade Storm? That Blade Storm did Slash damage (or rather, Blade damage) so the comparison kinda makes sense if that's the case.

Nah i'm comparing it to finisher damage bladestorm before combo mods what were the reason it was released, what op wants back? Or what's at least vastly more reasonable then a 100k finisher damage aimbot and i'm stating that just using shuriken repeatedly isn't as inferior to just that as people (are made to) believe.

Edited July 20, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Cyxe]

On 2018-07-17 at 12:31 PM, KochDerFrettchen said:

Instead of current Mag, who is the bane of corpus and grineer? 😛

Yeah no, Ash's 4 was bad for more reasons than people not playing him disliking it.  One-button-heroes are boring, poorly designed characters.

I think what OP is trying to say is that he enjoys the " One-button-heroes [that] are boring, poorly designed characters" and he wishes that there was an option to play that Warframe. And to some extent I empathize with him. I don't necessarily always want to go hardcore micro managing every little detail. Sometime's I just want to blow **** up and have a beer.  I do appreciate that DE is far and above better than Blizzard at balancing and overall improving the game. But mayyyyybe if DE gave us one button masher it wouldn't hurt. I mean there have been 20 new frames since I gave up on the game (around Nekros release). Now that I'm back it seems like there's plenty of content and things to do. What's one frame, really? It's not going to destroy the entire game if we have one Blade Storm.  Even if they made it so it only targeted NPCs or something.  I get that Conclave is a thing, though I haven't ventured into that part of the game yet. I started playing this game long before Conclave and enjoyed the game as it was.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Cyxe

[tripletriple]

They really should revert it. Warframe is so boring compared to when the frames had these amazing ultimate abilities.