Excalibur Prime Vs. Excalibur Umbra: Why it's an issue and what can be done to fix it

[S0thaSil]

I'll start off by saying this , I am not an Excalibur fan and I don't enjoy playing him , I'm only keeping Umbra for fashionframe purposes cus boii does he look stylish.
Anyway , I am not a founder but still , I agree that Excalibur Prime should be revisited ( a retexture + improved passives + the exact same base stats as Umbra) to bring him to 2018's standards. That only seems fair , if I were a founder I would want to main the frame that shows prestige rather than keep it hidden in the inventory because of how weak it is.

However , I don't think Excalibur Umbra should be edited in any sort , the idea of turning him into a 'heavy blade' frame is just bad and is extremely unfair for all the Excalibur fans who build their frames around fast blades.

Yes , Fix Excalibur Prime but please don't touch Excalibur Umbra

[Insizer]

Just now, tripletriple said:

Umbra cast is the same as primes now.They changed it. 

Hopefully excal prime gets some changes for the positive. I'm not staying quiet about this and neither should any founder. 

Ah so they did change it.  I'd still use Excal Prime over umbra as i dont have to worry about an AI doing something stupid and well i dont use operator mode for anything other than a battery charger.  Plus my glorious keyface still turns head and I don't have those weird elbow things.

I won't stay quiet, but I'm on the other side of the argument, because I don't want to keep reading "unvault excal prime" threads over and over again.

[tripletriple]

3 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Ah so they did change it.  I'd still use Excal Prime over umbra as i dont have to worry about an AI doing something stupid and well i dont use operator mode for anything other than a battery charger.  Plus my glorious keyface still turns head and I don't have those weird elbow things.

I won't stay quiet, but I'm on the other side of the argument, because I don't want to keep reading "unvault excal prime" threads over and over again.

My question is why make the frame that saved your game the worse version? Why make their frame the weaker one?  Just respect their purchase.

[Insizer]

4 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

My question is why make the frame that saved your game the worse version? Why make their frame the weaker one?  Just respect their purchase.

saved my game/their game? Huh?

My question is if you see a hornet's nest, why smack it?

Edited July 23, 2018 by Insizer

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

30 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

My question is why make the frame that saved your game the worse version? Why make their frame the weaker one?  Just respect their purchase.

DE is respecting your purchase, by keeping it exclusive 😄

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, S0thaSil said:

I agree that Excalibur Prime should be revisited ( a retexture + improved passives + the exact same base stats as Umbra) to bring him to 2018's standards.

The stats are already the same if you didn't know. Also, what are 2018's standards for Prime passive?

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

The precedent set by Excal, if all umbras are like his. it is a probem as primes should be the best in stats if nothing else..

Simply put imo they should buff Excal Prime to be a statwise upgrade over the umbra, but still lack the unique flavor of the umbra..

 

this gives both Prime and Umbra a unique feel.. normal basic frames.. primes which have the best stats, and Umbras which contain unique effects over the normal and primes.

 

otherwise older primes become more and more worthless.. its a not ok power creep.

 

as for Excal Primes looks, he looks primed well enough imo... i dont think they will update any older primes visually tho...

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Simply put imo they should buff Excal Prime to be a statwise upgrade over the umbra

If you want to flood forums with salt then yeah that's the way to go.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

2 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

If you want to flood forums with salt then yeah that's the way to go.

there are always tantrums about Excal Prime, so i see no difference..

again, Excal must set the precedent.. Are Umbras going to be a straight upgrade to the existing primes? or slightly weaker with unique benefits.

if they have equal stats and unique benefits, the Primes become unnecessary..

Edited July 23, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[Xaero]

Just now, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

there are always tantrums about Excal Prime, so i see no difference..

Not being able to complete the collection remained the only argument. You wanna add another one?

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

again, Excal must set the precedent.. Are Umbras going to be a straight upgrade to the existing primes? or slightly weaker with unique benefits.

If Excal was the frame to set a precedent, all Primes would be exclusive. It's rather a special case than an example.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

12 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

If Excal was the frame to set a precedent, all Primes would be exclusive. It's rather a special case than an example.

My argument has nothing to do with the exclusivity of Excal.... its about the differance between Prime and Umbra..

 

the method for obtaining umbras has not been released... Primes are farmed slowly, Umbra was obtained via a short quest with minimal effort.

 

1: it is easier to obtain umbra than any given Prime without using Platinum

2: Umbras stats are equal to Primes, Reducing the Value of the Prime at the start.

3: Umbras have unique benefits, unique passive and ability strength against certain enemys

4: Umbra has unique mod Polarities for its own unique set mods that DRASTICALLY improve its stats over even a prime..

 

Apply this logic to Ember, or Rhino... and who would pay hundreds of plat for them?

 

i could care less about the exclusivity aspect of Excal in particular.. but power creep must be addressed. look beyond your "why cant i have it too" arguements.

Edited July 23, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

there are always tantrums about Excal Prime, so i see no difference..

again, Excal must set the precedent.. Are Umbras going to be a straight upgrade to the existing primes? or slightly weaker with unique benefits.

if they have equal stats and unique benefits, the Primes become unnecessary..

That works both ways though.

Which do you pick for a spy mission? A frame that stays where you leave it, or a frame that'll run around and do it's own thing?

Which do you pick when you're planning on actively using your Operator? A frame that gains DR/Invulnerability or a Frame that shoots enemies but might (will) need saving at higher levels?

They have the same stats, but the Prime has the added benefit of control.

It's not as simple as "one is better". They are different. Frankly I think the whole difference between them can be boiled down to this:

Umbras give you a means with which you can combat Sentients without using your Operator and polarities favouring a particular playstyle.

Primes and normal frames give your Operator greater freedom to fight Sentients and greater build diversity overall.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

there is some truth that having your frame invulnerable is an advantage itself... But a flat majority of this game does not make extensive use of the Operator...

As tough as operator can be, its not the focus of general gameplay. With Notable Exception of Eidolons, and a few boss fights where being able to immunize yourself to damage is easier than avoiding it.

as a frame, being used as a frame.. Yes the Umbra is "better" and not just "Different".

Edited July 23, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose
you people get way too worked up around exclusivity and power creep.

[Xaero]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

My argument has nothing to do with the exclusivity of Excal.... its about the differance between Prime and Umbra..

I'm saying Excalibur (including variants) isn't the one to judge how other frames and their variants will work. Because exclusivity. It's obvious. Excal Prime had a less than marginal stat boost since mid 2015 until now, and before mid 2015 he wasn't any different from vanilla Excal except name, visuals and additional passive. UNLIKE other Prime warframes. The reason we have Umbra in the first place is Excal Prime's exclusivity. But this works only for Excalibur. Future Umbras for other frames may have heavier disadvantages compared to their Prime variants. But it won't have to do anything with Excal because he falls out of the line.

 

12 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

the method for obtaining umbras has not been released... Primes are farmed slowly, Umbra was obtained via a short quest with minimal effort.

1: it is easier to obtain umbra than any given Prime without using Platinum

And this makes you think other Umbras will have their own cinematic quests with minimal gameplay effort?

16 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

2: Umbras stats are equal to Primes, Reducing the Value of the Prime at the start.

Excal Prime current value can't be measured due to the exclusivity. Future Umbras may be different stats-wise though, who knows. Also, have you heard of Twitch Prime? Trinity Prime for free. Zero value. Same thing happened to Frost Prime last year. And free Ash Prime just for watching Tennolive.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

3: Umbras have unique benefits, unique passive and ability strength against certain enemys

Which Umbras exactly? I only know of one.

19 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

4: Umbra has unique mod Polarities for its own unique set mods that DRASTICALLY improve its stats over even a prime...

Again, won't be a problem if future Umbras are handled differently.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Apply this logic to Ember, or Rhino... and who would pay hundreds of plat for them?

There's no need to apply this logic (at least yet). If we get another Umbra frame that is superior to its commonly available Prime counterpart, then we'll see.

23 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

i could care less about the exclusivity aspect of Excal in particular.. but power creep must be addressed. look beyond your "why cant i have it too" arguements.

Well you should care more since this was the reason for creating Umbra. You don't want powercreep to become a thing, you can make proposals for future Umbras. Excal doesn't have to be included.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

5 hours ago, tripletriple said:

No, it's more like "I'm going to paint you a unique painting just for you" then they copy and paste that painting with platinum lined signatures.

You know where this breaks down? Everywhere.

You weren't offered a "unique picture". Excal Vanilla was in the game at launch. And several skins have released over the years.

You also weren't offered a better Excal. At launch Primes were skins. Increased performance for Primes came later. So barring psychic powers You weren't paying for that. You paid for a unique aesthetic variant of Excalibur, and still have one. Is Umbra similar? Sure, so is vanilla Excalibur and every other skin he has because they're all, you know, Excalibur.

And Umbra isn't any better than Prime. While the death orb energy passive is situationally useful, so is howl (Sentients are in about 0.00001% of the game), and Specter mode is a hindrance in any high level content where his stupid AI gets him shot to hell.

You wanted a unique aesthetic variant. You paid for it. You got it. You still have it. And from what the devs have said, you'll probably be able to paste it onto Umbra if you have some inexplicable desire to see your frame get itself killed mid-mission. So even if you believe Umbra is better, you'll likely be able to use that exclusive aesthetic you paid for on it.

[DeMonkey]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

as a frame, being used as a frame.. Yes the Umbra is "better" and not just "Different".

You ignored the "build diversity" point.

Yes, if you run Excal with a "Warrior" type build and never use your Operator then Umbra is the better frame.

If you use your Operator for CC, healing, dashing etc. If you want to build Excalibur as a CC machine focused on blinding enemies, then Umbra is not the better frame. 

This is especially important to note for future Umbra Warframes. Based on the fact that Umbral mods are a set of 3 (and unlikely to have more added, although who knows) it's clear they're intended to be built with a focus on a "warrioresque" playstyle (bit tanky, bit strong). What happens when we get to frames like Nyx who are CC focused?

Once again, there is no clear cut "better" frame. Perhaps Umbra suits your preferences more than the normal version, that's okay, it's better for you. Others will prefer to use the default or Prime in order to maintain control of their frame and enable builds that Umbra doesn't. 

[S0thaSil]

3 hours ago, Ksaero said:

The stats are already the same if you didn't know. Also, what are 2018's standards for Prime passive?

I was referencing the textures when I said that , my bad for not clarifying , Excalibur Prime Is just ugly.
and I thought prime had lower stats than umbra , well in that case I don't see why it would need a buff

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, S0thaSil said:

I was referencing the textures when I said that , my bad for not clarifying , Excalibur Prime Is just ugly.
and I thought prime had lower stats than umbra , well in that case I don't see why it would need a buff

On one hand: Wouldn't changing the appearance of excal prime turn all of the ads from 5 years ago into false advertising? 

On the other, why not let whatever new appearances of warframes be enjoyed by everyone? Would you have been happy if, for example, proto armor or dexcalibur had been founder exclusive skins despite being developed and released way after founder pack offering had ended?

Edited July 23, 2018 by ----Legacy----

[S0thaSil]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

On one hand: Wouldn't changing the appearance of excal prime turn all of the ads from 5 years ago into false advertising? 

On the other, why not let whatever new appearances of warframes be enjoyed by everyone? Would you have been happy if, for example, proto armor or dexcalibur had been founder exclusive skins despite being developed and released way after founder pack offering had ended?

the frame is ugly , it should be updated.
tbh , many skins in the game should get their textures reworked.
Excalibur Prime should look as good as the newer prime frames , at least work on his helmet since it's the only thing that says 'hey , I have excal Prime'

[haloamted]

4 hours ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

You wanted a unique aesthetic variant. You paid for it. You got it. You still have it. 

Don't waste your time on that guy. We had a one hour long discussion about what he paid for yesterday and he can't comprehend it. And waking up today, the entire thing is just purged from the topic. 

[Xaero]

32 minutes ago, S0thaSil said:

the frame is ugly , it should be updated.
tbh , many skins in the game should get their textures reworked.
Excalibur Prime should look as good as the newer prime frames , at least work on his helmet since it's the only thing that says 'hey , I have excal Prime'

DE have updated the textures not long ago and added the ability to recolor golden bits. Is this what you mean?

[S0thaSil]

3 hours ago, Ksaero said:

DE have updated the textures not long ago and added the ability to recolor golden bits. Is this what you mean?

indeed

[Almagnus1]

16 hours ago, Sorenxoras said:

If anything is changed i just think that Excalibur Prime's appearance should get a look over. It doesn't really hold up to the other primes as far as aesthetics go. Maybe keep the old one and mail out an updated Prime skin to founders. I dunno.

I could get behind that, as several of the early primes don't really look prime compared to the newer ones.

I mean, Excal Umbra looks more prime than Excal Prime.

 

[Pizzarugi]

The only reason Umbra is considered better, is because he originally comes with Umbra polarities for mods that are much better than their base. In turn, it makes him better than the prime, because it takes less forma to maximize his potential. His sentience passive is negligable, his anti-Sentient scream is niche, and he has the same base stats.

And between you and me, I'd rather have Umbra's sash on prime, not the prime skin on Umbra. Not to sound elitist or anything, but anyone can get Umbra, only few have prime.

If DE were to come up with "umbral forma" to allow making umbra mod polarities, it would bring the prime up to the same level as Umbra, but only after investment.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Almagnus1]

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The only reason Umbra is considered better, is because he originally comes with Umbra polarities for mods that are much better than their base. In turn, it makes him better than the prime, because it takes less forma to maximize his potential. His sentience passive is negligable, his anti-Sentient scream is niche, and he has the same base stats.

You can still mod Excal Prime to be close to Excal Umbra as far as the Umbra stats go, I mean take a look at:

Prime: https://goo.gl/s2LLiq

Umbra: https://goo.gl/DXMkdw

On Excal Prime, that's only a four forma build, which is actually isn't all that bad as far as forma goes - as there are some secondaries (like the Aklex Prime) that demand you use 6 or 7 forma.  Coupled with two arcanes to make Excal even tankier, I doubt you will ever notice the difference in the HP and Armor due to the Umbra mods not being maxed on Excal.

IMO, if I had access to Excal Prime instead of Umbra, I'd take Prime over Umbra for general stuff because Prime won't get himself killed if I'm in Operator mode and I can recharge at the Orbs in the Void if I'm in a mission there - which are two really nice bonuses to the Primes that Umbra doesn't have.

But again, I'm also of the mind that all Umbra and Prime should cosmetics, so for example, Rhino Prime and Rhino Umbra should be able to use each other's cosmetics.