Excalibur Prime Vs. Excalibur Umbra: Why it's an issue and what can be done to fix it

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Umbra is only statistically better when you consider the umbra mods so stating as such without mentioning said mods in your reasoning is fluffing your argument.  (you did mention the mods sort of but in a diff point with the polarities.)  Nothing needs to be done about prime vs umbra.  There is no issue here.  It's not like choosing umbra over prime is going to give you a big advantage.  And even if it did you don't need to play optimally in any content ever since the void exploded.

That being said I think how the umbra polarities were done was a bad idea.  It's a high investment for marginal benefits that hurts everyone that isn't an umbra cost wise.  I had suggested that primes could have the umbra polarity as well to cheapen said cost for them.  But umbra slots on umbra frames work as universal polarity slots.

[tripletriple]

10 hours ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

You know where this breaks down? Everywhere.

You weren't offered a "unique picture". Excal Vanilla was in the game at launch. And several skins have released over the years.

You also weren't offered a better Excal. At launch Primes were skins. Increased performance for Primes came later. So barring psychic powers You weren't paying for that. You paid for a unique aesthetic variant of Excalibur, and still have one. Is Umbra similar? Sure, so is vanilla Excalibur and every other skin he has because they're all, you know, Excalibur.

And Umbra isn't any better than Prime. While the death orb energy passive is situationally useful, so is howl (Sentients are in about 0.00001% of the game), and Specter mode is a hindrance in any high level content where his stupid AI gets him shot to hell.

You wanted a unique aesthetic variant. You paid for it. You got it. You still have it. And from what the devs have said, you'll probably be able to paste it onto Umbra if you have some inexplicable desire to see your frame get itself killed mid-mission. So even if you believe Umbra is better, you'll likely be able to use that exclusive aesthetic you paid for on it.

You need to stop pretending you speak for DE. None of those came from them. 

Secondly just taking excal prime and making a different and slightly better version for free is not fair for those who paid for excal prime.

[Makeup]

 

Another one of these threads. 

I'm going to come off as a prick, probably.

Non-founders should never ever get access to Excalibur Prime, it's an exclusive, and should remain that way. I see all these founders saying, "give the non-founders excalibur prime so our community doesn't hate eachother", and I'm going to say, not all of us founders agree with that, infact, most of us don't.

I'm not trying to come off as an arrogant prick either, I'm just stating the truth of the reality here. Umbra looks cool, and in my opinion just has better polarity mods. He doesn't beat excalibur prime in any other way in my opinion.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Goshies

[MasterControl]

Problem is, if you buff Excalibur Prime, you're going to have a bunch of non-founders complaining that we're back to square one with an unobtainable frame being better than any other variant you can obtain. This already happened a good while back over a TINY buff that Prime got in favor of base in 50 armor. In the long run it's just better that Umbra, a frame everybody (including founders) can get is the better pick, and that prime cosmetics can carry over. That way Founders have their exclusive look (that helmet is Excalibur's best imo) and normal players can have an upgraded, competitive Excalibur.

[Acos]

Umbra Excalibur has a very obvious edge over Prime Excalibur in that he comes pre-equipped with Umbral Polarity mods, and it is very difficult for other frames to match what these mods can do without sacrificing something in their build...  *spoilers* 

Spoiler

...although Umbral Excalibur had to sacrifice his son and humanity so I mean... maybe he kind of earned it.

Umbral Intensify in particular is pretty potent in that it gives a pretty large chunk of damage comparable to Corrupted Mods without any negative stats attached to it. U.Vitality and U.Steel Fiber also increase his EHP beyond what Excalibur Prime can have comfortably. Pretending like the two frames are entirely the same is a very obviously silly argument. 

I think it's probably enough if they just let us use Excal Prime's skin on Umbra. I also think Excalibur Prime is kind of ugly, so I don't really care either way. If they allow us to forma in the Umbral Polarity at some point (which I imagine they will) this will likely also dissolve this issue. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Acos

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

6 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

You need to stop pretending you speak for DE. None of those came from them. 

Secondly just taking excal prime and making a different and slightly better version for free is not fair for those who paid for excal prime.

I'm not speaking for DE. I'm correcting you since what you said was wrong on many levels.

Also, they didn't make a better Excal Prime. They made a better vanilla Excal that equals Prime. Which is perfectly fair since you actually bought a variant of Excalibur that only equaled the vanilla version. The buffs came later, after other Primes were released enhanced. So no, you didn't buy a better Excal. You didn't buy the best Excal. You bought one that was equal to the best, and still have that.

Lastly, unfair how? You still have Excal Prime, something that as a console player I was never even offered the ability to attain. And let's be honest here, he wasn't some massive investment. The minimum package that offered him was $50 and came with 1,220 Platinum... which if buying at the standard rate today is more than $50 worth. And if you got Grand Master for $250 that came with 8,875 Plat, an even better deal. And despite Prime being released as a skin when you bought in, he was later buffed... a bonus you never bought, giving you a lengthy exclusive hold on the best version of the game's poster boy, despite that never being part of the deal.

That doesn't sound unfair at all. It sounds like you got good value for your money and perks that weren't even part of it, for no additional cost, after purchase. Congrats.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

6 hours ago, haloamted said:

Don't waste your time on that guy. We had a one hour long discussion about what he paid for yesterday and he can't comprehend it. And waking up today, the entire thing is just purged from the topic. 

Oh I'm absolutely sure won't change his mind. It's the whole victim complex thing. That's not the point though. I'm not offering a counter point for him, but simply because it's good to have different opinions voiced in threads for any game where developers do in fact occasionally listen to the player base.

Take the rather infamous Destiny 2 for example. Most of the negative changes for the sequel were actually requested by a small portion of the community. Almost no one voiced an opposing opinion because, hey, the people who were fine with the decisions made didn't care. They were happy, so need to chime in. The community team, however, saw unopposed feedback and sent it up the chain to the developers who figured that was what the community wanted because a small number of vocal people wouldn't shut up about it, and no one was bothering to say much of anything different. So the sequel comes along and... all the people who were happy with the first game suddenly can't stomach the second.

Never underestimate the ability of a few people to affect change if no one else bothers to speak up.

[tripletriple]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

Oh I'm absolutely sure won't change his mind. It's the whole victim complex thing. That's not the point though. I'm not offering a counter point for him, but simply because it's good to have different opinions voiced in threads for any game where developers do in fact occasionally listen to the player base.

Take the rather infamous Destiny 2 for example. Most of the negative changes for the sequel were actually requested by a small portion of the community. Almost no one voiced an opposing opinion because, hey, the people who were fine with the decisions made didn't care. They were happy, so need to chime in. The community team, however, saw unopposed feedback and sent it up the chain to the developers who figured that was what the community wanted because a small number of vocal people wouldn't shut up about it, and no one was bothering to say much of anything different. So the sequel comes along and... all the people who were happy with the first game suddenly can't stomach the second.

Never underestimate the ability of a few people to affect change if no one else bothers to speak up.

Buddy stop pretending you are some hero. You are quite the opposite. 

If you really wanted to make a stand. Make a stand for the founders who paid money for an exclusive frame only to have a better version released for free.

[Almagnus1]

4 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

You need to stop pretending you speak for DE. None of those came from them. 

Secondly just taking excal prime and making a different and slightly better version for free is not fair for those who paid for excal prime.

You've had Excal Prime for 5-6 years at this point, something which no one else in the community has had access to.

I'm fine with (generally speaking) the Umbra line being a cosmetic sidegrade to the Primes, and as I have said prior, I'm all for (for example) Trinity Umbra and Trinity Prime sharing the same cosmetic pool.

I mean, how many of the starter weapons are really worth anything these days?

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

i could care less about the founders. tho i have been on their end of the spectrum of exclusivity i was never as overprotective of it (coldheart springs to mind as a more recent example). i have never seen such a selfish subsection of the exclusivity segment. i do however care about the fact that Primes are becoming outdated.

Umbra Polarities, Sentience passive, Anti Sentient innate features to an ability.. if all Umbras follow this pattern then they are an upgrade. regardless of "player choice" or "opinions" or the usability of the added features, they are added features on top of otherwise equal stats.. regardless of how you perceive a bonus, its still a bonus.

in the future, i hope that Primes get more to them, because i want to see them as the more versatile option, or the better option before mods.. the least that could be done is a single extra buffed stat, the most would be unique passive buffs that benefit more varied playstyles. the middle of the line, ability to place umbra polarities.

 

I see absolutely no reason for not adding something unique to excal prime or all primes beyond better stats and visual flair, even tho i do not and never will have Excal prime. At least i can get past that fact and try and look at the bigger picture.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

1 hour ago, tripletriple said:

Buddy stop pretending you are some hero. You are quite the opposite. 

If you really wanted to make a stand. Make a stand for the founders who paid money for an exclusive frame only to have a better version released for free.

I'm no hero. Neither are you. We're both just voicing our opinions; yours just happens to be based on inaccurate information .

The quality of Umbra is obviously debatable. I think it's lesser. The autonomy it has is a drawback, mainly due to the game's poor AI and his inability to avoid hazards and enemy fire. If you think otherwise I actually question if you've bothered to play him in any high end content, or whether your knee jerk reaction has soured you too much to even try him. The Umbra mods are nice, but the polarities shoehorn you into using them, even if they don't fit your build, or removing the polarity which cannot be restored. It limits versatility and hampers using Excal as a CC/finisher frame (generally his best use). And the sentient stripping howl is... kinda bad, since void mode makes you invincible (unless Umbra gets himself killed) and the secondary from a T1 amp will shred any Sentient dumb enough to challenge you making them a joke, and that bonus less worthwhile than energy from death orbs (which is also very not awesome).

Past that, you spent that money five years ago on a large amount of game currency (more than that amount would buy you today with no substantive bonus) and an aesthetic with no guarantee of no other versions (made obvious that there was one -at release- you know, vanilla). You still have the aesthetic, and one of the devs have already said that they are considering allowing that aesthetic to be used on Umbra, and that they're mainly just waiting for the preponderance of founders to agree they want this. So at this point the main person hurting you isn't the devs, it's not Umbra, it's not me or people who agree with me, it's you and others not simply and clearly saying that, yes, you want to use the skin on Umbra.

If you believe that Umbra is better, then get behind the idea of making the skin available for Umbra and use it. Then there is literally nothing to complain about. You can still use the skin you paid for on what you believe to be the best Excalibur (though likely if you spent a bunch of time playing him, you'd change your tune there).

Edited July 23, 2018 by (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

2 hours ago, tripletriple said:

 

If you really wanted to make a stand. Make a stand for the founders who paid money for an exclusive frame only to have a better version released for free.

Your attitude makes it hard to do that. Do you realize how awful you sound to everyone? “I won’t stay silent and neither should any other founder until Excalibur prime is better.” Stop thinking that just cuz you’re a founder that you own the game or DE and stop being smug about it. “Founders like me saved the game. It’s cuz of us that console have the game too.” News flash, everyone’s contributed to the success of Warframe. You sound like a child having a tantrum. You’re giving other founders who are cool with Umbra a bad name. YOU paid for an exclusive prime frame. Fine. It’s still exclusive, it’s still special as it shows that you’re a veteran. YOU should’ve considered the possibility that DE could release another Excalibur for everyone before buying the founders pack. You have such a rotten attitude and for what? You think your exclusive frame is not worth bragging about anymore? You want it how it was like before when prime only 25 more armor? Suck it up and move on

[tripletriple]

1 hour ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

I'm no hero. Neither are you. We're both just voicing our opinions; yours just happens to be based on inaccurate information .

The quality of Umbra is obviously debatable. I think it's lesser. The autonomy it has is a drawback, mainly due to the game's poor AI and his inability to avoid hazards and enemy fire. If you think otherwise I actually question if you've bothered to play him in any high end content, or whether your knee jerk reaction has soured you too much to even try him. The Umbra mods are nice, but the polarities shoehorn you into using them, even if they don't fit your build, or removing the polarity which cannot be restored. It limits versatility and hampers using Excal as a CC/finisher frame (generally his best use). And the sentient stripping howl is... kinda bad, since void mode makes you invincible (unless Umbra gets himself killed) and the secondary from a T1 amp will shred any Sentient dumb enough to challenge you making them a joke, and that bonus less worthwhile than energy from death orbs (which is also very not awesome).

Past that, you spent that money five years ago on a large amount of game currency (more than that amount would buy you today with no substantive bonus) and an aesthetic with no guarantee of no other versions (made obvious that there was one -at release- you know, vanilla). You still have the aesthetic, and one of the devs have already said that they are considering allowing that aesthetic to be used on Umbra, and that they're mainly just waiting for the preponderance of founders to agree they want this. So at this point the main person hurting you isn't the devs, it's not Umbra, it's not me or people who agree with me, it's you and others not simply and clearly saying that, yes, you want to use the skin on Umbra.

If you believe that Umbra is better, then get behind the idea of making the skin available for Umbra and use it. Then there is literally nothing to complain about. You can still use the skin you paid for on what you believe to be the best Excalibur (though likely if you spent a bunch of time playing him, you'd change your tune there).

Every single one of your posts has been pretending you know what DE intended. You do not speak for them, so stop acting like you do. 

Your opinion is just you trying to pretend your point is backed up by DE. Which it's not. Everything you posted is wrong information.

De can and will if they see fit buff excalibur prime.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

2 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Every single one of your posts has been pretending you know what DE intended. You do not speak for them, so stop acting like you do. 

Your opinion is just you trying to pretend your point is backed up by DE. Which it's not. Everything you posted is wrong information.

De can and will if they see fit buff excalibur prime.

No, my posts have been flat out saying what they released and what you bought. They offered a product that you saw fit to buy. The problem here is that you believe that you are owed more than that because... reasons. You're owed what you bought; an aesthetic you still have exclusive access to, and platinum which you've probably spent (and possibly some other stuff depending on the package you've purchased).

This isn't about DE's intent, it's about the product they released that you paid for, which they're provided and honored in an acceptable manner, which five years later you've decided isn't good enough after several post release buffs that weren't present at launch that have apparently convinced you that the product that you bought which was equal when you purchased it, should now be better, and that you are owed that, despite that not being the case at all when you bought it.

And if I am not fit to point out that what DE has done, as that is apparently "speaking for them" then you should probably stop saying that Prime needs a buff or should be better, since they saw fit to buff Prime already, and to craft Umbra exactly as he is now... which I think is a better indication of their intentions then your commentary on it is, and I'm not allowed to give my opinion on it without being accused of speaking for them, you shouldn't be allowed either.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

20 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

De can and will if they see fit buff excalibur prime.

They already gave him a buff when Umbra came out. Which btw, they didn’t have to. Buuut i guess they can give him 25 more armor 😜

[tripletriple]

56 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

No, my posts have been flat out saying what they released and what you bought. They offered a product that you saw fit to buy. The problem here is that you believe that you are owed more than that because... reasons. You're owed what you bought; an aesthetic you still have exclusive access to, and platinum which you've probably spent (and possibly some other stuff depending on the package you've purchased).

This isn't about DE's intent, it's about the product they released that you paid for, which they're provided and honored in an acceptable manner, which five years later you've decided isn't good enough after several post release buffs that weren't present at launch that have apparently convinced you that the product that you bought which was equal when you purchased it, should now be better, and that you are owed that, despite that not being the case at all when you bought it.

And if I am not fit to point out that what DE has done, as that is apparently "speaking for them" then you should probably stop saying that Prime needs a buff or should be better, since they saw fit to buff Prime already, and to craft Umbra exactly as he is now... which I think is a better indication of their intentions then your commentary on it is, and I'm not allowed to give my opinion on it without being accused of speaking for them, you shouldn't be allowed either.

 Where did I say I want more? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said i wanted a change to what i currently own. In the same way you add better parts to a car. 

Some of us have a sense of decency. DE do because they buffed excalibur prime. You on the other hand think copy and pasting with better usability is okay. They offered and exclusive warframe and then created an entire sub genre of warframe to cheat their way to making a prime but not prime.

[Almagnus1]

6 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

 Where did I say I want more? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said i wanted a change to what i currently own. In the same way you add better parts to a car. 

Some of us have a sense of decency. DE do because they buffed excalibur prime. You on the other hand think copy and pasting with better usability is okay. They offered and exclusive warframe and then created an entire sub genre of warframe to cheat their way to making a prime but not prime.

I'm not sure this is the intended result, but it's coming off as you flaming DE because they produced Umbra, which undermines your position.

To be honest, I'm fine with DE creating a completely separate line of warframes, despite having all the prime gear with the exception of the Founder's primes, Destreza Prime, and Pyrana Prime.  Given the story behind what Umbra is, and Umbra's origin with the origin of the Primes (basically Orokin warframes), IMO it makes sense that Umbra should be able to use the prime stuff as it's all Orokin in origin.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

19 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

 Where did I say I want more? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said i wanted a change to what i currently own. In the same way you add better parts to a car. 

Some of us have a sense of decency. DE do because they buffed excalibur prime. You on the other hand think copy and pasting with better usability is okay. They offered and exclusive warframe and then created an entire sub genre of warframe to cheat their way to making a prime but not prime.

So it all just boils down to you just being salty that DE was creative enough to give everyone a better Excalibur that isn’t prime but equal to prime. Are you saying you’d prefer no one having Umbra at all? Even though everyone’s been asking for something like this for years? If I’m not mistaken, prime is still exclusive.  Give it a rest. DE owes you nothing but the promise of exclusivity. Nowhere did it say this would never happen so DE was in the clear to release Umbra for everyone. Don’t like him? Don’t use him

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

22 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

 Where did I say I want more? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said i wanted a change to what i currently own. In the same way you add better parts to a car. 

Some of us have a sense of decency. DE do because they buffed excalibur prime. You on the other hand think copy and pasting with better usability is okay. They offered and exclusive warframe and then created an entire sub genre of warframe to cheat their way to making a prime but not prime.

Where did you say you want more? You're asking for buffs so... in nearly every post?

DE made Umbra as much as they buffed Prime. So do they have a sense of decency, no?

Past that, they didn't ever offer you a frame with better usability. When you bought the Founders package Primes were skins. Now you're complaining because they're releasing frames that are "prime but not prime", something comparable, when that's EXACTLY all Prime ever was when you made your purchase. You LITERALLY BOUGHT EXACLIBUR PRIME WHEN IT WAS A COPY/PASTE OF VANILLA EXCAL. You can't come out against copy/paste when you paid 50-250 dollars for exactly that

[tripletriple]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

Where did you say you want more? You're asking for buffs so... in nearly every post?

DE made Umbra as much as they buffed Prime. So do they have a sense of decency, no?

Past that, they didn't ever offer you a frame with better usability. When you bought the Founders package Primes were skins. Now you're complaining because they're releasing frames that are "prime but not prime", something comparable, when that's EXACTLY all Prime ever was when you made your purchase. You LITERALLY BOUGHT EXACLIBUR PRIME WHEN IT WAS A COPY/PASTE OF VANILLA EXCAL. You can't come out against copy/paste when you paid 50-250 dollars for exactly that

It's called consistency. Things change. That was 5 years ago.

If you are that intent on keeping things the same. Stop bullet jumping. That didn't exist 5 years ago either.

[Almagnus1]

Just now, tripletriple said:

It's called consistency.

Which is why we're all asking for Excal Prime to be in line with the other primes - that is, a strict stat upgrade to Excalibur with unique cosmetics and no other differences.

What I'd like to see is the precedence set with Umbra that Prime and Umbra share the same cosmetic pool, so that way when we get to Trinity Umbra, I have the option to use the Trinity Prime cosmetics on Trinity Umbra if I wish.  As far as Umbra and Prime go, I'm fine if Umbra is a marginal upgrade/sidegrade to Prime.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

2 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

It's called consistency. Things change. That was 5 years ago.

If you are that intent on keeping things the same. Stop bullet jumping. That didn't exist 5 years ago either.

Ha!

You are entitled to what you bought. You have that. You can't whine that you don't have a better Excal anymore when that's not what you bought and only ended up with that because "thing a change" unless you accept that, you know, THINGS CHANGE and that you no longer have that, and Prime is now equal to Umbra, putting you back where you started with exactly what you paid for.

Can't you see how self-defeating your argument is? How hypocritical nearly every post you're making is? It's just self-serving nonsense.

You're talking about consistency when you have none.

[tripletriple]

3 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which is why we're all asking for Excal Prime to be in line with the other primes - that is, a strict stat upgrade to Excalibur with unique cosmetics and no other differences.

What I'd like to see is the precedence set with Umbra that Prime and Umbra share the same cosmetic pool, so that way when we get to Trinity Umbra, I have the option to use the Trinity Prime cosmetics on Trinity Umbra if I wish.  As far as Umbra and Prime go, I'm fine if Umbra is a marginal upgrade/sidegrade to Prime.

I'm not fine with it. We don't need 300 variants of warframes each powercreeping each other.

[(PSN)Ragology]

9 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

It's called consistency. Things change. That was 5 years ago.

If you are that intent on keeping things the same. Stop bullet jumping. That didn't exist 5 years ago either.

Isn't this a "false equivalence" fallacy or something?

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

Ha!

You are entitled to what you bought. You have that. You can't whine that you don't have a better Excal anymore when that's not what you bought and only ended up with that because "thing a change" unless you accept that, you know, THINGS CHANGE and that you no longer have that, and Prime is now equal to Umbra, putting you back where you started with exactly what you paid for.

Can't you see how self-defeating your argument is? How hypocritical nearly every post you're making is? It's just self-serving nonsense.

You're talking about consistency when you have none.

I think you just became my best friend 😂