Can a Dax soldier beat a warframe?

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

There's only one answer, no, if Dax soldiers were transformed into Umbras, it's because they weren't strong enough in the first place

Quite the opposite.

For example, Umbra was one of the best. They explicitly call out that he's basically a legend. And compare the Gemini sheath with his Nikana - his has it's own special properties, and was forged for 'only the finest of Dax'.

Only the best in any field were transformed. 

[CoolDudeMcCool]

45 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Quite the opposite.

For example, Umbra was one of the best. They explicitly call out that he's basically a legend. And compare the Gemini sheath with his Nikana - his has it's own special properties, and was forged for 'only the finest of Dax'.

Only the best in any field were transformed. 

I don't see why the Dax being amazing and the Dax not being good enough are mutually exclusive. If the Dax were good enough, Warframes wouldn't have had to become a thing. I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Dax aren't good at what they do, but Warframes are a step above that. Dax, for their time, are amazing. But just like computers, like the army, like improvements in general, they need to keep getting better to handle what's thrown at them. Better games demand better computers. Better enemies demand stronger soldiers.

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

Titania destroyed a whole battalion of Dax and she's like top 3 worst frames, so...

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

I don't see why the Dax being amazing and the Dax not being good enough are mutually exclusive. If the Dax were good enough, Warframes wouldn't have had to become a thing. I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Dax aren't good at what they do, but Warframes are a step above that. Dax, for their time, are amazing. But just like computers, like the army, like improvements in general, they need to keep getting better to handle what's thrown at them. Better games demand better computers. Better enemies demand stronger soldiers.

Good point. Looking back I see that in the post I was replying to.

I agree, by the way, Dax are powerful by every stretch. It's just that Warframes are just better, and Tenno have the high quality experience of learning from lethal mistakes. Which I'm fairly certain Dax didn't get the luxury of.

[(XBOX)PrecursorNam]

Not quite. really it varries. Not all the dax are the same. You got ur teshins and then you got ur isahs. Teshin could probably kick some warframe's asses if he really wanted to. He has the orvius to if he wanted to disable it. But that also depends on the tenno as well.  

[Goodwill]

How many hours into a survival mission are we talking about?

 

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, (XB1)i know your nam said:

Not quite. really it varries. Not all the dax are the same. You got ur teshins and then you got ur isahs. Teshin could probably kick some warframe's asses if he really wanted to. He has the orvius to if he wanted to disable it. But that also depends on the tenno as well.  

Teshin got his arse kicked by my Warframe.  Also don't forget that we have the Orvius too, and it's more dangerous in our hands than in Teshin's.  Especially if Ivara is using it.  

Sorry for the spoilers.  😁 

[DeathDweller]

Idk  i see all these we kicked his ass etc but 2 things:

1 We haven't see a Dax fight and what abilities they possess, i mean those guys took down Sentients the old days and 

2 I wouldn't consider TWW a prime example since Teshin was controlled by the Queens, yet he didn't want to do any harm and when we knocked the sword of him i'm pretty sure by the way he Darth Vaded it back to his hand without flinching, if he wanted to he would stick it up our asses.

Their full power and skills are yet to be seen.

Edited July 23, 2018 by DeathDweller

[Rythiman]

I believe a high skilled Dax can beat a novice Warframe user. But Warframes have several innate advantages, not the least of which are being really durable, being able to revive self, being linked to void demons that can dash in the blink of an eye or become intangible. And, spoiler alert,

 

many if not all Warframes are essentially genetically enhanced Dax.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Rythiman
Hide spoilers

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

Idk  i see all these we kicked his ass etc but 2 things:

1 We haven't see a Dax fight and what abilities they possess, i mean those guys took down Sentients the old days and 

2 I wouldn't consider TWW a prime example since Teshin was controlled by the Queens, yet he didn't want to do any harm and when we knocked the sword of him i'm pretty sure by the way he Darth Vaded it back to his hand without flinching, if he wanted to he would stick it up our asses.

Their full power and skills are yet to be seen.

Number 1 is irrelevant because we also took down sentients in the old days also.  😁

Number 2 might also be said of us as we also didn't want to hurt Teshin.  Him Darth Vadering the sword back to his hand isn't all that impressive when you consider all the stuff that we ourselves can do.  

Tenno full powers and skills haven't all been unlocked or seen.  Remember that we did self powered transference with teleportation over a vast area that no one else had done before we did it in that quest.  

Teshin only had a small idea of what we could do, but not even close to what we can really do.  

In all honesty, how in the hell would Teshin fight against Ash, Ivara, or Loki without getting handed his own arse.  

Edited July 23, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Loza03]

Just now, DeathDweller said:

Idk  i see all these we kicked his ass etc but 2 things:

1 We haven't see a Dax fight and what abilities they possess, i mean those guys took down Sentients the old days and 

2 I wouldn't consider TWW a prime example since Teshin was controlled by the Queens, yet he didn't want to do any harm and when we knocked the sword of him i'm pretty sure by the way he Darth Vaded back without flinching if he wanted to he would stick it up our asses

1 Umbra's original form was the only Dax confirmed to be capable of beating back Sentients and was considered a living legend because of it. He had portraits in his honor, blades crafted for him decorated and made with the finest Orokin gold and he had not just the audience but the respect of one of the seven for his might and strategic ability (if we consider Ballas's respect for him at Komi/Go). I wouldn't call Umbra the average Dax soldier. And he'd be fighting for US if Tenno and Dax came to blows nowadays. Even if there were others around his level, the vast majority weren't, otherwise the Orokin wouldn't have needed us. Meanwhile, the vast majority of Tenno can go up against Sentients and more than a few can utterly obliterate them. Consider Hidden Messages, Mirages quest, where she tears a squad of them apart with her bare hands.

2 Yes, Teshin was almost certainly holding back. But he also survived the encounter, unlike basically everyone else short of Alad V we've fought in our Warframes, meaning we probably were too. He even mentions we showed him mercy. So neither fighter was going full-force in that duel.

[DeathDweller]

5 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

 

Tenno full powers and skills haven't all been unlocked or seen.  Remember that we did self powered transference with teleportation over a vast area that no one else had done before we did it in that quest.  

 

In all honesty, how in the hell would Teshin fight against Ash, Ivara, or Loki without getting handed his own arse.  

Well if you get the Tenno aspect out of a Warframe cause the thread was not about Tenno/Warframe but Warframe  let's say we got an Umbra or feral or whatever a Dax would most likely have the advantage cause of warrior skills and full sentience making him able to conceive strategies.

Now with the Tenno inside yeah things change but at the time TWW happened i believe we couldn't do much we seemed too naive.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

let's say we got an Umbra or feral or whatever a Dax would most likely have the advantage cause of warrior skills and full sentience making him able to conceive strategies.

In regards to this all I have to say is look up the Guyver.  I say this only because a good bit of Warframe seems to draw heavily from that anime/manga series.  The Warframes themselves are extremely similar to the Guyvers.  

One part worth mentioning is what the Guyver itself does when the it's in danger and the operator/controller is unconscious or incapacitated.  It displays a remarkable level of cunning, skill, and ruthlessness.

  I believe this to be no different for warframes.  Umbra during the Sacrifice quest and our warframe's actions during the Second Dream give credence to this being the case.  

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Teshin got rekt in tww

[rand0mname]

Hmm, so many Tenno are so sure that they would wipe the floor with Dax...

Do we know what a Dax in a big hat fully armed and experienced Dax in a serious killing mood was capable of? 

Yep, Tenno killed Sentients, and Dax vs Sentients... Yeh. But Dax and their weapons were made with “light and science” and Sentient could subvert Orokin tech. And yet at least once Dax won. Art for Battle of Hull (10.54). Just look at the full picture. Badass.

Yep, Ordin Karris killed Dax and he was not a Warframe. But in a Warframe comic Excalibur were taken out by a pack of Ghouls. And Ordan was not a bad figther himself. One of the kind.

Yep, Titania wiped out a battalion of Dax. But we have no idea how well trained this Dax were – the war have been going on for some time and that battalion could be a fresh band of rookies like Isaah. Would you send your best of the best to set a forest on fire?

Yep, Symaris entry Dax were taken out by Grineer. But again, said Grineer were unique and we have hints that said Dax were not at their best (or were not the best). The story is about pitiful leftovers of the mighty Orokin Empire. If one would see a Warframe soon after said frame fell out of stasis and think that this is all Tenno is capable off... Well, that one is in for a suprise ;).

As several posters already pointed out, in WW Teshin got a drop on Tenno. And he and Tenno both were holding back then they fought. After that fight Teshin stands up and distracts the Grineer. Not bad.

I would not underestimate Dax. Tenno would win, but I do not think it would be an easy win. And I am certain that a well prepared Dax can beat a careless Warframe ;).

Edited July 23, 2018 by rand0mname

[(PSN)Abdo_Xm]

If the tenno is inexperienced and the Dax knows enough of the Warframe's Weakness then Yes, If both are on their peak Experience I'd say The Tenno would win

[Marvelous_A]

Difficult to tell. We don't know the full potential of a Dax. But Teshin can easily decapitate a warframe with Orvius and our operator ain't accomplish sh1t without a warframe.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said:

Difficult to tell. We don't know the full potential of a Dax. But Teshin can easily decapitate a warframe with Orvius and our operator ain't accomplish sh1t without a warframe.

If their target isn't heavily armoured, Operators can do some serious damage. And looking at Teshin, Isaah and the Umbra Portrait, they didn't wear much armour, similar to Warframes. At least compared to the Grineer. Which means that Operators can hurt Dax. And they aren't bad fighters themselves - much less powerful than a Warframe, sure, but they have some good moves. Madurai can just burn people up in the void, so that'd cause the Dax some issues.

[Velveteen]

18 hours ago, (XB1)Cooldog234jr said:

Just wanted to know.

Umbra almost broke our neck in the orbiter and we are damn void demons, we genocided the orokin, a warframe would probably rip a dax's head clean off with one slap. 

[Alaeacus]

Some, probably. Not all Tenno are created alike, just like all Dax. Some are more badace than others. Teshin was purposely holding back and we don't even know how high he ranked among Dax. It's very likely the Dax from Sacrifice was much higher rank, and more skilled, than Teshin as he was a retired decorated "hero" of the wars.

Not all Tenno are the player character. You can't imagine your OP Tenno represents all Tenno. That's absurd.

Edited July 23, 2018 by AlMcFly

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, AlMcFly said:

Some, probably. Not all Tenno are created alike, just like all Dax. Some are more badace than others. Teshin was purposely holding back and we don't even know how high he ranked among Dax. It's very likely the Dax from Sacrifice was much higher rank, and more skilled, than Teshin as he was a retired decorated "hero" of the wars.

Not all Tenno are the player character. You can't imagine your OP Tenno represents all Tenno. That's absurd.

I thought about this, and we can say player characters are the level we can go at for tenno in Warframe from an interesting angle they took: There is only one Tenno NPC, and they are outside the norm, that  character being Rell*. As opposed to, say, Destiny, where there are non-player Guardians all over the shop. Unlike Destiny where the player is the exception, in Warframe the player is the norm. If they're a Tenno, they're a player. So we can generalise what players can do, at least outside of feats displayed in quests, where we're breaking what we normally do and are functioning as the one canon Tenno performing these actions in the story, basically excepting our feats here as not something all Tenno can do (even if it's rarely said that our abilities in quests is something only we can do).

Basically: Destiny has non-player guardians, therefore not all Guardians are like players. Warframe only has player Tenno, so all Tenno are like players.

*Also, technically, Rell was very technically playable, if you count us influencing his card choices as playing as him. Extremely on a technicality, but we do have control of him.

[Alaeacus]

16 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I thought about this, and we can say player characters are the level we can go at for tenno in Warframe from an interesting angle they took: There is only one Tenno NPC, and they are outside the norm, that  character being Rell*. As opposed to, say, Destiny, where there are non-player Guardians all over the shop. Unlike Destiny where the player is the exception, in Warframe the player is the norm. If they're a Tenno, they're a player. So we can generalise what players can do, at least outside of feats displayed in quests, where we're breaking what we normally do and are functioning as the one canon Tenno performing these actions in the story, basically excepting our feats here as not something all Tenno can do (even if it's rarely said that our abilities in quests is something only we can do).

Basically: Destiny has non-player guardians, therefore not all Guardians are like players. Warframe only has player Tenno, so all Tenno are like players.

*Also, technically, Rell was very technically playable, if you count us influencing his card choices as playing as him. Extremely on a technicality, but we do have control of him.

We have plenty of lore entries showing Tenno losing fights and battles in the past, Gara for instance.  Thus, power levels do fluctuate between Tenno, in the canon universe.  

We can't consider the player character as "the norm" because only the player character thwarted the Grineer Queens, chased Teshin to the mountain, and stabbed Ballas.  We can't consider every Tenno in the universe are Tenno who thwarted the Grineer Queens and stabbed Ballas.  The story forces us to assume we are the only special Tenno, otherwise it would not make sense.  This is what people are referring to when they say your player character is the "chosen one" in the story. 

It is not canon that there are 500,000 chosen ones in the universe.  Playing with other Tenno, you are supposed to assume they are not the chosen ones, as you are.  

Edited July 23, 2018 by AlMcFly

[Loza03]

46 minutes ago, AlMcFly said:

We have plenty of lore entries showing Tenno losing fights and battles in the past, Gara for instance.  Thus, power levels do fluctuate between Tenno, in the canon universe.  

We can't consider the player character as "the norm" because only the player character thwarted the Grineer Queens, chased Teshin to the mountain, and stabbed Ballas.  We can't consider every Tenno in the universe are Tenno who thwarted the Grineer Queens and stabbed Ballas.  The story forces us to assume we are the only special Tenno, otherwise it would not make sense.  This is what people are referring to when they say your player character is the "chosen one" in the story. 

It is not canon that there are 500,000 chosen ones in the universe.  Playing with other Tenno, you are supposed to assume they are not the chosen ones, as you are.  

For Gara, I wouldn't call sticking what I can only assume is a sort of void nuke in the Sentient and pulling the trigger can really be counted as a 'loss'. It was a self-sacrificial moment, but she had that Sentient on the ropes for ages to begin with - and the Sentient's attack that triggered it was just as much of a desperation move because it literally knew "If I keep fighting like this, I will fail."

That said, yeah, there are lore entries of Tenno losing fights. The three that come to mind are Valkyr/Zanuka, Atlas and Mirage. Zanuka, however, we know how they operate. They basically snatch Tenno up, which is how Alad got Valkyr and other sleeping frames in the Gradivus Dilemma, which is what the majority of Zanuka is made of. We already know who wins in a straight fight, because of the Alad V boss fight. For Mirage, whilst the exact circumstances are vague, was up against a full squadron of Sentient fighters, unarmed, and still killed a bunch of them before she was finally taken down. We've never seen that number of fighters in-game, but if what is talked about is any indication, she went down swinging harder than we do, if anything. And Atlas, well, Jordas is hardly a reliable narrator. We know Atlas lost, yes, but nothing of the conditions surrounding it. It's quite possible that he, like Mirage, dealt considerable damage to his enemies before falling. Besides, the canonical losses for the Tenno are far, far outweighed by the number of victories against similar, or even greater odds. 

Also...

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

at least outside of feats displayed in quests, where we're breaking what we normally do and are functioning as the one canon Tenno performing these actions in the story, basically excepting our feats here as not something all Tenno can do (even if it's rarely said that our abilities in quests is something only we can do).

Already addressed that. Including the fact it's almost never said to my memory that what we're doing is particularly outside of any individual Tenno's power. It's said that we are particularly noble and all that, yes, but I don't think at any point anyone says "Tenno, nobody but you (singular) could have done this", at least in the sense of 'nobody else is powerful enough.' If it is said, it's generally in the sense of 'You're the only one close enough'. Even in the 'Smiles from Juran' scene with Umbra, the Vitruvian entry refers to the Tenno's ability to take away a Warframe's pain as a collective ability. And in TWW opening, the Worm Queen says "the DreamerS have awakened" indicating that the other Tenno at least have their Operators. And Onkko mentions when sacrificing an Amp that it'll arm 'another'. Since only Tenno can wield these particular amps since they use void magic, that implies that other Tenno have awakened their true powers as well.

Compare again to Destiny where we know for a fact that there's a clear power disparity between player Guardians and NPC guardians because A: Vanguard Guardians, AKA non-player Guardians are shown breaking gameplay rules presumably because of the power gap, and B: they point out more than once that these achievements the player makes are out of the ordinary for a Guardian. Case and point, Destiny 2 campaign, there's 100 Guardians with light running around when the Player is the only one canonically with light, as opposed to the previously-mentioned instances which at least imply and at most confirm that most, if not all, Tenno have the same powers we do. We just are the ones who acquire them first in our respective stories. If Onkko's anything to go by, that's down to Multiverse and Unum shenanigans.

[(XBOX)PrecursorNam]

On 2018-07-22 at 9:17 PM, DatDarkOne said:

Teshin got his arse kicked by my Warframe.  Also don't forget that we have the Orvius too, and it's more dangerous in our hands than in Teshin's.  Especially if Ivara is using it.  

Sorry for the spoilers.  😁 

But take note he was purposely hoding back the entire time

[(PSN)robotwars7]

no, but how much of a fight you get depends on rank, if we're talking noob Dax like Isaah, not a cat in hell's chance. if it's a mid/high level Dax like Isaah's Father or Teshin, they can pose a threat, but Warframe's still win. Dax can be evenly matched with Tenno in terms of martial prowess with melee weapons, but we have powers and higher durability on our side. Dax also notably don't appear to use any ranged weapons, so bringing a gun automatically give you a major advantage over a Dax; at the very least they have to keep deflecting bullets which prevents them from attacking, at worst they can get literally killed in one shot.

The Dax weren't strong enough against the Sentients, but we can take them on thanks to our powers. there's a very big difference in overall power between us and the Dax. and if a Dax were to fight a Tenno without it's frame, it would be even worse as our kids are even faster than our frames and can become invincible and cloaked at the same time.

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by (PS4)robotwars7