Re. players spamming gameplay-altering abilities...

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

From my perspective (which may or may not be precise), there are 3 categories where team-affecting abilities are concerned

• those that affect the team's O/D stats.
• those that affect the team's stats as a secondary effect.
• those that affect the team's movement and environmental interaction and (may or) may not be wanted. So far as I've seen, these seem to be abilities that can be cancelled by rolling out of them, and to my knowledge include at least Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift.

Examples of the first two would be Rhino's Roar and Mag's Crush, respectively. Nobody (that I've seen/heard of) doesn't appreciate Rhino's Roar, and can live with Mag's Crush (=bonus shields); however, the third category...of late that's been Volt's speed boost and Limbo's Rift. The first affects a player's speed (obviously) and movement, the second affects a player's ability to interact with loot and lockers/consoles. And it gets more annoying when the player using just such an ability spams it repeatedly -- ESPECIALLY after the unwanted gift has just been cancelled by its recipient.

Case example of this is the Neo Rescue I ran this morning on Eris. I get hit with a speed boost almost soon as the rest of the team spawns in; however, since it's not any real problem before the cells, I roll with it despite my dislike of it; however, that changes when we reach the holding cells as the guy then drops boosts right outside the lasers -- then proceeds to bull the lasers and trip the alarm. I roll out of it because I need fine control for navigation and platforming, and pop cell 1/3 (empty), then jump across to 2/3 -- and overshoot because the Volt player dropped ANOTHER boost. I take a few seconds to recover and properly pop the cell, then head to the extract, stopping to shake off the boost because I'm now bouncing off walls...and it gets reapplied almost immediately. This continues for 3-4 more times before I get annoyed enough to ask the guy to stop.

I'll have two questions regarding this:

1. would a toggle for team-affecting abilities that alter control or environmental interaction be reasonable?
2. if yes to #1, would it be feasible?

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk

[Xirka]

Play solo, or in premade groups if you don't like the way other frames abilities change gameplay. 

[sati44]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

Case example of this is the Neo Rescue I ran this morning on Eris. I get hit with a speed boost almost soon as the rest of the team spawns in; however, since it's not any real problem before the cells, I roll with it despite my dislike of it; however, that changes when we reach the holding cells as the guy then drops boosts right outside the lasers -- then proceeds to bull the lasers and trip the alarm. I roll out of it because I need fine control for navigation and platforming, and pop cell 1/3 (empty), then jump across to 2/3 -- and overshoot because the Volt player dropped ANOTHER boost. I take a few seconds to recover and properly pop the cell, then head to the extract, stopping to shake off the boost because I'm now bouncing off walls...and it gets reapplied almost immediately. This continues for 3-4 more times before I get annoyed enough to ask the guy to stop.

Given that the incident is pretty fresh, I'll admit that I'm getting a bit pissed off just recalling it, and might be losing my point here. So I'll wrap this up with two questions:

1. 1) would a toggle for team-affecting abilities that drastically alter control or environmental interaction be reasonable?
2. 2) if yes to #1, would it be feasible?

 

I'm sorry but that is just anecdotal. In all seriousness you have the option to shake it off and you can stop sprinting and just run if you feel it's a problem.

Plus no one cares about the extra reload and attack speed you get from Volt's Speed? Because I see people posting speed is an useless ability. Ok...

I played with speed volts and never found the boost a problem so I can write 3 or 4 stories how the boost was amazing and helpful in missions and how I had no problem working with it.

Would my anecdotal stories count as a counter to your argument?

Volts speed for me is not drastically altering anything and so my answer to your first questions is NO.

 

ps. there was a topic about this not to long ago, so we will have similar comments in this one.

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by sati44

[lukinu_u]

I totally agree with your point.
I would add Frost bubble and Atlas all to the list as they prevent you to shooting through and are even worth when you have weapons that can do self damages.

The ability to toggle theses abilities may be abused, for exemple a small range cataclysm to protect the objectif and one guy and 3 other inside the bubble (but not affected by it) who attack, that can be revived by the guy inside.
I think the most probable solution is the ability to exclude some warframe from your matchamking, but I doubt DE will ever do this.

[SpicyDinosaur]

oh gaaawd, I thought this stuff was over with.

 

I'm making a purely strength based banish build to rift surge enemies etc and just throwing banish around until people have a reason to complain.

 

Cataclysm you choose to step into. As for the rift tears, well, limbo is squishy, I pop in and out of the rift a lot especially in long survivals. The primary reason to complain (and why I never got to enjoy one of my two fav frames before because people would leave group immediately,) is fixed. You do not have a reason to whine. As you said, you can roll out of it.

 

When I am playing other warframes I just...don't have a problem doing this. It...isn't that hard. You might try binding it to a specific key? Pressing that key whenever you -yourself- walk behind limbo and get stuck in the rift because he slides back into it.

If you get banished while a limbo is riftsurging enemies, well, I get a tad flustered when other people murder massive groups of enemies when I'm trying to get focus. I'd be here every day complaining about OP frames and unfairness, (but no one does that, right?) if I let it bother me for very long.

 

Play Ivara for awhile, then you'll start rolling all the time. Good to learn how to move your frame effectively.

 

As for volt speed, try using run as a toggle? Then you can opt out of team affecting abilities by pressing that run/walk button!

 

Doing that would actually, btw, (opting out of team affecting abilities, I mean,) make you the issue to the team. If so I think the person should have a big red X over their glyph, so everyone knows and can "opt out" of playing with that person.

 

Also a poor example to make the point with as it is extremely trivial.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

1 minute ago, sati44 said:

In all seriousness you have the option to shake it off and you can stop sprinting and just run if you feel it's a problem.

You missed the part where the guy kept reapplying it as soon as I shook it off...

2 minutes ago, sati44 said:

Plus no one cares about the extra reload and attack speed you get from Volt's Speed? Ok...

Wait, really? I thought it was just movement speed. Then again, I don't use Volt despite having him. As for drastic alteration, I'm busy fighting when other folks drop in -- maybe it's on me that I don't check, but the first hint that a Volt has dropped in is usually the SFX followed by speeding into a wall. My typical reaction after is checking who's running Volt and trying to stay away from them; this USUALLY works...unless the guy's Volt is range-maxed and/or staying close and raining the boost.

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

There is a solo play option btw.

 

Limbo's rift, incidentally, also protects you from outside damage, maybe you missed that as well?

 

This is also why I never equip the haven augment. It would be such a waste. "WTF you put me in the rift and healed 25% of my health???? arrrrgh I'm off to the forums NOW!"

Edited July 29, 2018 by SpicyDinosaur

[sati44]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

You missed the part where the guy kept reapplying it as soon as I shook it off...

Wait, really? I thought it was just movement speed. Then again, I don't use Volt despite having him. As for drastic alteration, I'm busy fighting when other folks drop in -- maybe it's on me that I don't check, but the first hint that a Volt has dropped in is usually the SFX followed by speeding into a wall. My typical reaction after is checking who's running Volt and trying to stay away from them; this USUALLY works...unless the guy's Volt is range-maxed and/or staying close and raining the boost.

 

No I didn't I just think it easy to work around it unless you hold sprint all the time and never stop even when you get the buff. I know wf is all about movement and speed but I don't believe there are players that don't release the sprint key and just run 100% of the time - Never Stopping. So when they get the buff they don't stop sprinting and run into walls.

And yes Volts buffs your reload (17%) and attack speed (50%) that can go up to 63.41% reload and 186.5% speed with max str build. But who cares right? Rhino give me powah roar!

Edited July 29, 2018 by sati44

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

19 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

There is a solo play option btw.

 

Limbo's rift, incidentally, also protects you from outside damage, maybe you missed that as well?

Solo play was mentioned, but that's not exactly much of an option for me where relics are concerned.

And I've heard of Limbo's Rift protecting you from damage, but I got lost with his abilities -- honestly couldn't keep track of Rift/normal, ended up maxing Limbo Basic like a no-ability frame before I sold him. That was months ago; made Limbo Prime shortly after he came out, but I just haven't felt like (nor gotten around) to using him.

As for holding the sprint button, I usually do this if I'm running to the extract, especially if I'm dragging a hostage, but never 100% throughout a level. The speed boost makes navigation a bit more difficult while running, and screws fine control if I'm trying not to touch lasers or land a jump.

Edited July 29, 2018 by (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk

[SpicyDinosaur]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

Solo play was mentioned, but that's not exactly much of an option for me where relics are concerned.

And I've heard of Limbo's Rift protecting you from damage, but I got lost with his abilities -- honestly couldn't keep track of Rift/normal, ended up maxing Limbo Basic like a no-ability frame before I sold him. That was months ago; made Limbo Prime shortly after he came out, but I just haven't felt like (nor gotten around) to using him.

As for holding the sprint button, I usually do this if I'm running to the extract, especially if I'm dragging a hostage, but never 100% throughout a level. The speed boost makes navigation a bit more difficult while running, and screws fine control if I'm trying not to touch lasers or land a jump.

...

italics emphasis is mine. You don't know how either of the abilities you complained about work, and you want an entire feature added to the game for it?

 

If you don't like playing with other people, you are going to have to deal with all that that entails. And that includes them using abilities that aren't your totally fav ones. 

 

For example, your glyph, ember annoys me in play because she tops out so quickly and destroys bodies, and people love to bring her to things where she isn't helpful and the bodies are vital for some reason or another. What if I want ember's ability to burn enemies removed when I join the group because it affects me as say, nekros, being able to get loots and oxygen off the corpses?

 

Also, with a boosted speed loki, I can still handle volt's buff. But like, I'm not going to request entire code overhauls because I didn't get to pull out a power core without detection...

Edited July 29, 2018 by SpicyDinosaur

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

From my perspective (which may or may not be precise), there are 3 categories where team-affecting abilities are concerned

• those that affect the team's O/D stats.
• those that affect the team's stats as a secondary effect.
• those that affect the team's movement and environmental interaction and (may or) may not be wanted. So far as I've seen, these seem to be abilities that can be cancelled by rolling out of them, and to my knowledge include at least Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift.

Examples of the first two would be Rhino's Roar and Mag's Crush, respectively. Nobody (that I've seen/heard of) doesn't appreciate Rhino's Roar, and can live with Mag's Crush (=bonus shields); however, the third category...of late that's been Volt's speed boost and Limbo's Rift. The first affects a player's speed (obviously) and movement, the second affects a player's ability to interact with loot and lockers/consoles. And it gets more annoying when the player using just such an ability spams it repeatedly -- ESPECIALLY after the unwanted gift has just been cancelled by its recipient.

Case example of this is the Neo Rescue I ran this morning on Eris. I get hit with a speed boost almost soon as the rest of the team spawns in; however, since it's not any real problem before the cells, I roll with it despite my dislike of it; however, that changes when we reach the holding cells as the guy then drops boosts right outside the lasers -- then proceeds to bull the lasers and trip the alarm. I roll out of it because I need fine control for navigation and platforming, and pop cell 1/3 (empty), then jump across to 2/3 -- and overshoot because the Volt player dropped ANOTHER boost. I take a few seconds to recover and properly pop the cell, then head to the extract, stopping to shake off the boost because I'm now bouncing off walls...and it gets reapplied almost immediately. This continues for 3-4 more times before I get annoyed enough to ask the guy to stop.

I'll have two questions regarding this:

1. would a toggle for team-affecting abilities that alter control or environmental interaction be reasonable?
2. if yes to #1, would it be feasible?

 

Use operator in the rift. Completely unaffected.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I suggest a prompt for interaction. Volt leaves behind a coil and Limbo leaves behind a portal. What if touching them isn't enough to proc their effect. What if you need to press a button or key to interact with them?

Would also like to recommend a prompt before going into Nova's Worm Hole. Its okay if you know where its going but if it catches you off guard just by touching it, its disorienting.

Edited July 30, 2018 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[SpicyDinosaur]

How about we just learn to play in teams or... don't.

 

Also, ❤️ the stasis change so much, tried the tactical alert last defence again to help someone but this time used max range on my limbo and we breezed through it in between 20-30 minutes I think?

 

He got impatient though and bet me he could -solo- it faster as Frost, (he played frost previously, just as backup to my near zone wide shield). Shifted some things in his build and did it in 24 alone. >__>

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk:

You missed the part where the guy kept reapplying it as soon as I shook it off...

Ever looked at the abilities stats? It's got the power cost of a first ability with the corresponding duration. If you're not spamming it playing volt, you're not using it at all.

His overall kit? Made to ignore anything but a little bit of duration for the most part. Range is very, very important for his entire Cc too and also his survival since he's got no armor, no propper health, nothing but his Cc and augumented overshields in the same step and a shield that drains you dry so really, that volt did a decent job playing him. But then again, if he really was using max range he was probably not. 

I play him a lot, keep it balanced and recommend everyone to keep it that way too.

http://imgur.com/gallery/pvsPFVg

 

With that kinda build you're able to rush squads while not really restricting them. You can use speed, nuke and you really don't have to worry about dying. A little distance to melee enemys keeps the squad safe and that goddarn synergy with the zenistar is just epic.

 

There's really nothing wrong with his speed. The power economy and restrictions on his shields are a tad messed up, what would allow for less range and more duration focused builds (replacing stretch with narrow mindet and static discharge with shocking speed on my build for example) would it be better but he's peerless in any other regard so long players use it responsibly.

Edited July 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I suggest a prompt for interaction. Volt leaves behind a coil and Limbo leaves behind a portal. What if touching them isn't enough to proc their effect. What if you need to press a button or key to interact with them?

Maybe. At least it's kinda what I was getting at -- a middle ground between [abilities being imposed upon players] and [lobotomizing character ability lists], the latter of which would be (understatingly) not very well received.

That aside, tho, I'm looking back on my initial post. I concede that it would probably be complicated (at the least) to focus on blocking specific types of abilities, so I'm revising that and asking if it would be reasonable>feasible for a receiving player to toggle on/off their reception of ALL casted grants? For the record, this would not affect things like constructs (=http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Snow_Globe), and would nullify grants from primary effects (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Roar) or secondary effects (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Crush) if a receiving player has toggled off ability reception.

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

How about we just learn to play in teams or... don't.

And having said that, I knew it was gonna come up again. Bottom line, my problem is not wanting to run with other people, but individual players who seem not to get the hints.

---

Spicy, I'm not sure about that Ember vs. Nekros deal. Maybe I've never noticed it, or maybe I'm missing something (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nekros#Abilities), but I've also not heard of such an issue from anyone. Much thanks if you'd fill me in on that.

Also, apologies for the glyph, but to me it is just a glyph. Mag's my main, but the Mag glyphs...

---

CoolD, maybe this need rewriting, but the entirety of it includes Volt but is not about Volt specifically. Where Volt is concerned, I don't care if Speed is for personal use, but a potential problem arises when he grants it to other players who may (or may not) want it.

Edited July 30, 2018 by (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

 

Maybe. At least it's kinda what I was getting at -- a middle ground between [abilities being imposed upon players] and [lobotomizing character ability lists], the latter of which would be (understatingly) not very well received.

That aside, tho, I'm looking back on my initial post. I concede that it would probably be complicated (at the least) to focus on blocking specific types of abilities, so I'm revising that and asking if it would be reasonable>feasible for a receiving player to toggle on/off their reception of ALL casted grants? For the record, this would not affect things like constructs (=http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Snow_Globe), and would nullify grants from primary effects (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Roar) or secondary effects (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Crush) if a receiving player has toggled off ability reception.

And having said that, I knew it was gonna come up again. Bottom line, my problem is not wanting to run with other people, but individual players who seem not to get the hints.

---

Spicy, I'm not sure about that Ember vs. Nekros deal. Maybe I've never noticed it, or maybe I'm missing something (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nekros#Abilities), but I've also not heard of such an issue from anyone. Much thanks if you'd fill me in on that.

Also, apologies for the glyph, but to me it is just a glyph. Mag's my main, but the Mag glyphs...

---

CoolD, maybe this need rewriting, but the entirety of it includes Volt but is not about Volt specifically. Where Volt is concerned, I don't care if Speed is for personal use, but a potential problem arises when he grants it to other players who may (or may not) want it.

You could easily test ember or for that matter nova using 4 and then enemies that die disintegrating as well. You also were entirely unaware of very basic facts about several warframes. So I assume you aren't a "details" person, anyway.

 

Nothing like trying to hydroid/nekros farm say polymer bundles and having someone bring an ember or nova. >__> Also everyone wants to leave after 15 minutes so... hey my boyfriend and I only play those farms duo. Because we don't want other player problems. That would be a of parallel.

 

Basically you are asking for something entirely unnecessary and extra work for the programmers so you can not be inconvenienced. 

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

You could easily test ember or for that matter nova using 4 and then enemies that die disintegrating as well. You also were entirely unaware of very basic facts about several warframes. So I assume you aren't a "details" person, anyway.

That's more like "still learning" and working through my backlog. But it probably doesn't matter.

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Basically you are asking for something entirely unnecessary and extra work for the programmers so you can not be inconvenienced. 

Maybe I was. In any case, this thing is probably dead. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

Edited July 30, 2018 by (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk

[torint_man]

5 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I suggest a prompt for interaction. Volt leaves behind a coil and Limbo leaves behind a portal. What if touching them isn't enough to proc their effect. What if you need to press a button or key to interact with them?

This exact thing was tried before, and was horrible. People who want to benefit from volt's speed or can deal with it (which is the vast majority) don't want to have to pick up a specific thing at a specific location every 20 seconds, and makes speedrunning worse as you have to stop moving forward. All team buffs MUST be opt out, not opt in (except octavia due to how her 3 works), otherwise you are inconveniencing every player who wants to benefit, and those who want to benefit or can deal with it far outnumber those who have an actual problem with the team buffs. 

On a secondary note, learn to handle volt's speed. It's not that hard. You are going out of your way to not learn. I would go so far as to say you are doing your teammates a slight disservice with your refusal to learn as you are potentially slowing down the missions.

[mactrent]

21 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

The ability to toggle theses abilities may be abused, for exemple a small range cataclysm to protect the objectif and one guy and 3 other inside the bubble (but not affected by it) who attack, that can be revived by the guy inside.

Well, if Limbo is the guy inside, he could really do that from anywhere just by rolling into the Rift.  I don't see how this is any more abuse than that is.  The opt-outs aren't getting any protection from the Cataclysm, and if Limbo chose the make it small range, they're not really gaining much advantage of position - at best they're a few meters closer to the thing they still don't even need to defend.  I see your point, but this is a really poor example.

22 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I'm making a purely strength based banish build to rift surge enemies etc and just throwing banish around until people have a reason to complain.

 

Cataclysm you choose to step into. As for the rift tears, well, limbo is squishy, I pop in and out of the rift a lot especially in long survivals. The primary reason to complain (and why I never got to enjoy one of my two fav frames before because people would leave group immediately,) is fixed. You do not have a reason to whine. As you said, you can roll out of it.

 

When I am playing other warframes I just...don't have a problem doing this. It...isn't that hard. You might try binding it to a specific key? Pressing that key whenever you -yourself- walk behind limbo and get stuck in the rift because he slides back into it.

If you get banished while a limbo is riftsurging enemies, well, I get a tad flustered when other people murder massive groups of enemies when I'm trying to get focus. I'd be here every day complaining about OP frames and unfairness, (but no one does that, right?) if I let it bother me for very long.

Cataclysm is indeed a choice, and since the Stasis change, it's a much friendlier one - you simply limit your targets to inside/outside, without limiting your tactics, and you can freely switch back and forth any time you want so long as it is up.  The rift tears are at worst annoying, and at best inconsistent.  I'd love to see them better implemented or replaced somehow, but they're not the real pain point, I agree.

Rift Surge, on the other hand, does not leave Limbo's teammates much choice.  Rift Surge exists so that Limbo can stay in the Rift, and bring enemies in with him without having that choice-giving Cataclysm up at all times.  Rift Surge can bring enemies into the Rift, but not teammates.  So if you want to keep your targets, you can hope Limbo fails to successfully keep his chain going, then leaves the Rift to cast Banish to put you into the Rift at the same time he does your targets, or you can hope that he doesn't use Rift Surge at all.

OP frames and unfairness are a bit of a tangent, really, even when it comes to Limbo.  Should 1 person be able to solo a mission while 3 people watch and do nothing meaningful to contribute?  Sure, that's our power fantasy, and our reward for the grind.  What's really important is that everyone is having fun.  Fun is subjective, yes, DE agreed it wasn't fun (again, forget "fair") if Stasis affected allied bullets, with Limbo being as is/was.  It's arguably even more OP (and for most unwitting Limbo teammates, more fun as well) ever since that change, and it's one I applaud.  You don't see people on the whole using Rift Surge in pubs, because while watching your enemies die en mass (with the possibility of speeding their death, if even a little) is still reasonably fun, watching them do nothing, with no possibility of interacting with them in any way, is usually not fun at all.

I don't want to be the Limbo that people have a reason to complain about, but I know how awesome Rift Surge is, so it would be cool if I could use it more often.  Other frames can at least choose to mod their powers in specific ways or use them in specific situations where they're at least marginally helpful, or at worst irrelevant.  Rift Surge is the power that you use as little as possible around teammates, to try and keep it irrelevant, because there's just no way to use it that's helpful to your teammates.  Trying to get somewhere past these enemies?  Why not Banish, if your team actually wants protection?  Trying to defend something?  Cataclysm gives your teammates the choice of in or out, rather than having them stare at a field of lawn ornaments.  Damage buffs with the augment?  It's all fine for you, but they don't get the damage buff like Limbo does, and they still have to put up with the lawn ornaments until you can hunt them down, which in nearly all cases, is still slower than your 3 teammates could have killed some if you worked together.

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

24 minutes ago, mactrent said:

Well, if Limbo is the guy inside, he could really do that from anywhere just by rolling into the Rift.  I don't see how this is any more abuse than that is.  The opt-outs aren't getting any protection from the Cataclysm, and if Limbo chose the make it small range, they're not really gaining much advantage of position - at best they're a few meters closer to the thing they still don't even need to defend.  I see your point, but this is a really poor example.

Cataclysm is indeed a choice, and since the Stasis change, it's a much friendlier one - you simply limit your targets to inside/outside, without limiting your tactics, and you can freely switch back and forth any time you want so long as it is up.  The rift tears are at worst annoying, and at best inconsistent.  I'd love to see them better implemented or replaced somehow, but they're not the real pain point, I agree.

Rift Surge, on the other hand, does not leave Limbo's teammates much choice.  Rift Surge exists so that Limbo can stay in the Rift, and bring enemies in with him without having that choice-giving Cataclysm up at all times.  Rift Surge can bring enemies into the Rift, but not teammates.  So if you want to keep your targets, you can hope Limbo fails to successfully keep his chain going, then leaves the Rift to cast Banish to put you into the Rift at the same time he does your targets, or you can hope that he doesn't use Rift Surge at all.

OP frames and unfairness are a bit of a tangent, really, even when it comes to Limbo.  Should 1 person be able to solo a mission while 3 people watch and do nothing meaningful to contribute?  Sure, that's our power fantasy, and our reward for the grind.  What's really important is that everyone is having fun.  Fun is subjective, yes, DE agreed it wasn't fun (again, forget "fair") if Stasis affected allied bullets, with Limbo being as is/was.  It's arguably even more OP (and for most unwitting Limbo teammates, more fun as well) ever since that change, and it's one I applaud.  You don't see people on the whole using Rift Surge in pubs, because while watching your enemies die en mass (with the possibility of speeding their death, if even a little) is still reasonably fun, watching them do nothing, with no possibility of interacting with them in any way, is usually not fun at all.

I don't want to be the Limbo that people have a reason to complain about, but I know how awesome Rift Surge is, so it would be cool if I could use it more often.  Other frames can at least choose to mod their powers in specific ways or use them in specific situations where they're at least marginally helpful, or at worst irrelevant.  Rift Surge is the power that you use as little as possible around teammates, to try and keep it irrelevant, because there's just no way to use it that's helpful to your teammates.  Trying to get somewhere past these enemies?  Why not Banish, if your team actually wants protection?  Trying to defend something?  Cataclysm gives your teammates the choice of in or out, rather than having them stare at a field of lawn ornaments.  Damage buffs with the augment?  It's all fine for you, but they don't get the damage buff like Limbo does, and they still have to put up with the lawn ornaments until you can hunt them down, which in nearly all cases, is still slower than your 3 teammates could have killed some if you worked together.

 

umm yes all abilities are a choice, but whether you like teammates using any of their KIT to survive/attack enemies is also a choice.

Drop out if you hate Limbo's entire abilities, or should we list all the abilities other classes use that make enemies utterly invulnerable when I can slaughter the enemies just fine with rift surge and banishment. Oberon, Equinox, Banshee, Ember and on and on will kill en masses (some topping out though) often before others in the group depending on builds and mod power etc can get anything. (and if you are after affinity based on the old draco runs the one dealing all the damage gets the smallest cut of affinity.)

I mean seriously you are saying one specific warframe should be held accountable or programming should be done so that people can ignore their benefits and make the group less efficient, (because you can't adjust to their abilities due to what? A lack of skill or laziness?) for the awfulness of using their powers to attack the enemy just as efficiently as anyone else, (depending on the mission,) because you don't get to kill the mobs, too. But that is true of most classes really if you build for it. 

People used to do that to me constantly, drop out of group upon seeing limbo, that is, and even with limbo being a sort of poor man's harrow in eidolons with his own small benefits (and rocking with an ivara combo) people sometimes still drop when they see me on limbo, a lot of times I quickly explain my class works fine if a trinity joins like I need.

Hell I had en entire 3 cap where the group was ripping into me about how useless I was playing limbo instead of harrow because I couldn't give them crit. I finally just slipped into the rift and stopped using my powers to protect from the magnetic screams or stop the vomvalysts from getting to the eidolon. But goddamn it was depressing and demoralizing.

Minor inconveniences for you do not require recoding the kit of one or two warframes. They got rid of the problem with Limbo in my opinion. I can play him now and I've got some kickass builds.

 

What I'm trying to say and tl;dr:

Why doesn't Limbo have a bobblehead yet???

Edited July 30, 2018 by SpicyDinosaur

[mactrent]

18 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

umm yes all abilities are a choice, but whether you like teammates using any of their KIT to survive/attack enemies is also a choice.

Drop out if you hate Limbo's entire abilities, or should we list all the abilities other classes use that make enemies utterly invulnerable when I can slaughter the enemies just fine with rift surge and banishment. Oberon, Equinox, Banshee, Ember and on and on will kill en masses (some topping out though) often before others in the group depending on builds and mod power etc can get anything. (and if you are after affinity based on the old draco runs the one dealing all the damage gets the smallest cut of affinity.)

I mean seriously you are saying one specific class should be held accountable or programming should be done so that people can ignore their benefits and make the group less efficient, (because you can't adjust to their abilities due to what? A lack of skill or laziness?) for the awfulness of using their powers to attack the enemy just as efficiently as anyone else, (depending on mission,) because you don't get to kill the mobs, too. But that is true of most classes really if you build for it. 

People used to do that to me constantly, drop out of group upon seeing limbo, that is, and even with limbo being a sort of poor man's harrow in eidolons with his own small benefits (and rocking with an ivara combo) people sometimes still drop when they see me on limbo, a lot of times I quickly explain my class works fine if a trinity joins like I need.

Hell I had en entire 3 cap where the group was ripping into me about how useless I was playing limbo instead of harrow because I couldn't give them crit. I finally just slipped into the rift and stopped using my powers to protect from the magnetic screams or stop the vomvalysts from getting to the eidolon. But goddamn it was depressing and demoralizing.

Minor inconveniences for you do not require recoding the kit of one or two warframes. They got rid of the problem with Limbo in my opinion. I can play him now and I've got some kickass builds.

 

What I'm trying to say and tl;dr:

Why doesn't Limbo have a bobblehead yet???

Using the kit to survive/attack enemies is fine.  Cataclysm, for example, while making any contribution I make to most Mobile Defense missions moot, at least allows me to continue the core gameplay loop of killing things.  Boring for some, but yes, I can choose to like it.  How many Warframe abilities do make enemies invulnerable, though?  Inaros has one, Nyx has one, and Nidus has one.  They only work on one enemy at a time.  Nekros' shadows at least have very visible effects, and have a pretty low limit on how many he can have.  Ash used to be able to make enemies invulnerable while they were marked for death.  They were going to die, and teammates could easily see that, but they weren't dead yet, and there was nothing anyone that Ash could do about it.  That wasn't fun.

Just because Saryn, Ember, and Equinox can kill everything in a way that is decidedly not fun for their teammates, doesn't mean Limbo should be able to not kill things in a way that's even less fun.  Limbo is most decidedly not as efficient as any of those for killing, because he still needs to bring his weapons to bear just like everyone else does, even if he does get a boost to his own damage, with Rift Surge he's negating his 3 teammates' damage to those targets, so it's a net loss.  OP suggested programming changes (like they did for Octavia's music), but I'm actually suggesting power changes instead.  I'm perfectly able to adjust, but it could be better.  I'm not complaining, I love Limbo.  I love him and all of his powers, and I'd rather be able to use all of them.  "Adjust" to team-play as Limbo means "use 4 and 2 unless explicitly permitted otherwise"

That you had to put up with someone yelling at you is bad, and I'm sorry about that.  They did indeed get rid of one problem with him.  That doesn't make him perfect, is what I'm saying, but don't confuse it to mean it makes him useless or his players deserving of backlash automatically.

What I'm trying to say and tl;dr:

Limbo doesn't need to have his Rift Surge spread un-fun.  It can be improved, and I don't even think adding a switch to ignore the Rift is the right call; I'd rather he got his 3 or the Rift mechanic in general another look.

Edited July 30, 2018 by mactrent

[SpicyDinosaur]

It's not unfun. And you can ask for a banish if you want to tear it all up.

 

I carried, as I said before, a group through the last part of the tactical alert with a max range limbo using banish and rift surge (with a trin keeping mt energy up) and was efficiently killing things. From inside cataclysm, so could everyone else, even if the mobs were outside, because they too were in the rift. It was actually preferable to banish them and rift surge was exceptionally helpful, even with a low strength build.

I just did a totally cute anderson cooper eyeroll originally, but I guess the mods stealth deleted it. Thanks for not warning me, however, ICE, I appreciate it. (Actually I really do haha.)

 

Note: again, my friend did the same thing solo with frost in slightly less time, but that just attests to his significant skill imo.

 

Oh another note: I wouldn't -mind- a relook that made people more friendly to Limbo, I feel it is unnecessary, and really my biggest complaint would be a fear of what the devs would do mucking about with it.

Edited July 30, 2018 by SpicyDinosaur

[Arcira]

On 2018-07-29 at 10:20 PM, Xirka said:

Play solo, or in premade groups if you don't like the way other frames abilities change gameplay. 

Wtf is this kind of reasoning? Let me give you some over the top examples to illustrate your argumentation: If you don´t want to be exploited found your own state. If someone pullute your air move to another location. If you don´t like getting trolled play another game.

There no reason why things like volt speed which can affect your gameplay negatively have to be this obstrusive. Since solo play was, is and probably never will be as efficient as coop play and not everyone has 3 premates around at any given time this argument is invalid.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Arcira

[Buttaface]

Warframe powers are generally poorly designed. The Prime Directive of such design should be "can this ability be used to interfere with other players' enjoyment of the game?" (including aiming, movement, boredom due to aoe spam killing everything, and a whole host of other factors that spoil fun) and if the answer isn't a solid NO, it should be reworked or replaced. 

Harrow (who needs tweaks admittedly) should be the baseline for frame power design, as it's almost impossible to spoil other players' experience and fun using any Harrow powers. ALL warframes should have similarly unobtrusive kit, few do though. That's why WF isn't really that good a game. That WF doesn't apply this type of reasoning to frame power design is astounding.

Oh, and the "don't pug, play solo" retort is moronic... but game forum... so it is near endlessly repeated. No surprise there I guess.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Buttaface

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, Arcira said:

Wtf is this kind of reasoning? Let me give you some over the top examples to illustrate your argumentation: If you don´t want to be exploited found your own state. If someone pullute your air move to another location. If you don´t like getting trolled play another game.

There no reason why things like volt speed which can affect your gameplay negatively have to be this obstrusive. Since solo play was, is and probably never will be as efficient as coop play and not everyone has 3 premates around at any given time this argument is invalid.

I like your examples! Though I disagree with you on the actual point.

 

But you are an officer and a gentleperson!