War Melee Effect On Sentients

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

Now before anybody assumes, I’ve tried looking this up but couldn’t find anything about what I’m gonna ask. 

Should the War be able to damage or kill sentients? No I’m not talking about the ones that appear on Lua. I’m talking about the PoE. The Vomvalysts and Tridolons. 

The War is a sentient weapon. Much like the amps. Figured it, of all weapons, should be able to kill the vomvalysts.

AND... Be able to damage the Tridolons’ shields. Not everybody like using their Tenno, and not everybody have their focus trees maxed out or leveled enough to be a part of the elites that can wipe out the Tridolons. 

Now that there are superior weapons compared to the War, I figured this could be a way to make the War more useful than just being trophy in your inventory. 

Also I like to be able to slay the Tridolons without having to wait for their shields to be brought down. Not mention be able to kill the Vomvalysts without having to switch back and forth between warframe and Tenno(mainly to see where on my map they are).

Just something to think about. Figured a sentient weapon, should be able to hurt/kill sentients.

[Xaero]

Going by your logic, Chroma and Revenant should be able to damage Tridolons' shields with their abilities.

[Rawbeard]

what makes you think sentients can kill each other? why would a sentient weapon pose any threat to a sentient?

[Fukushu]

6 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Now before anybody assumes, I’ve tried looking this up but couldn’t find anything about what I’m gonna ask. 

Should the War be able to damage or kill sentients? No I’m not talking about the ones that appear on Lua. I’m talking about the PoE. The Vomvalysts and Tridolons. 

The War is a sentient weapon. Much like the amps. Figured it, of all weapons, should be able to kill the vomvalysts.

AND... Be able to damage the Tridolons’ shields. Not everybody like using their Tenno, and not everybody have their focus trees maxed out or leveled enough to be a part of the elites that can wipe out the Tridolons. 

Now that there are superior weapons compared to the War, I figured this could be a way to make the War more useful than just being trophy in your inventory. 

Also I like to be able to slay the Tridolons without having to wait for their shields to be brought down. Not mention be able to kill the Vomvalysts without having to switch back and forth between warframe and Tenno(mainly to see where on my map they are).

Just something to think about. Figured a sentient weapon, should be able to hurt/kill sentients.

Ya see, I've bolded where the major flaw in your logic is. The Amps our Tenno use aren't what's harming the Sentients; it's the Tenno's void powers. Much like our Warframes, the Amps are a tool used to magnify our power, which is why even a Tenno who hasn't received their first amp can (very slowly) whittle down a Teralyst's shields. Weapons are just weapons to a Sentient, and they can build up resistances to basic damage types, but Void essence? That's like poison to the Sentients, even going so far as to strip their resistances.

Whether people like it or not, the powers our Tenno wield are more than likely going to be very necessary for taking out future Sentient forces, and the "some people don't like using their Operator" excuse really holds no water when it comes to what should and shouldn't be able to damage and easily kill a Sentient. Those players are willingly gimping themselves, and any blame for the struggles they face should fall on them alone.

[2.9.16.27.32.47]

cuz stalker use it to kill us not the sentient :b 

[MickThejaguar]

On 2018-09-01 at 3:38 PM, Ksaero said:

Going by your logic, Chroma and Revenant should be able to damage Tridolons' shields with their abilities.

What does Chroma have to do with sentients?

[Xaero]

1 minute ago, MickThejaguar said:

What does Chroma have to do with sentients?

His pelt is of Sentient origin.

[MickThejaguar]

Just now, Ksaero said:

His pelt is of Sentient origin.

Source?

[Xaero]

2 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

Source?

I don't think it was mentioned directly by devs, but everythings about it tells it's Sentient: adaptation mechanics, looks, energy effects when 4th ability is activated.

[MickThejaguar]

3 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

I don't think it was mentioned directly by devs, but everythings about it tells it's Sentient: adaptation mechanics, looks, energy effects when 4th ability is activated.

I'm not a huge fan of treating fan theories as actual canon and I personally don't see a huge similarity between the pelt and a sentient.

[Xaero]

39 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

I'm not a huge fan of treating fan theories as actual canon and I personally don't see a huge similarity between the pelt and a sentient.

Ok, not the point of this topic anyways.

[Almighty_Jado]

@Ksaero @MickThejaguar Rebecca confirmed this in a Primetime episode in the past. I don’t remember which one exactly, but she did explain that.

Someone in the chat was talking about monster hunter, and how you could obtain armour from monsters you kill. Then Rebecca explained that that’s exactly what Chroma did; kill a Sentient Dragon and then wear its pelt like a trophy/armour.

[Xaero]

10 minutes ago, Almighty_Jado said:

@Ksaero @MickThejaguar Rebecca confirmed this in a Primetime episode in the past. I don’t remember which one exactly, but she did explain that.

Someone in the chat was talking about monster hunter, and how you could obtain armour from monsters you kill. Then Rebecca explained that that’s exactly what Chroma did; kill a Sentient Dragon and then wear its pelt like a trophy/armour.

Oh, so there is a proof, thanks.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

On 2018-09-03 at 8:03 AM, Almighty_Jado said:

@Ksaero @MickThejaguar Rebecca confirmed this in a Primetime episode in the past. I don’t remember which one exactly, but she did explain that.

Someone in the chat was talking about monster hunter, and how you could obtain armour from monsters you kill. Then Rebecca explained that that’s exactly what Chroma did; kill a Sentient Dragon and then wear its pelt like a trophy/armour.

But how did chroma kill a sentient if “only void energy” can damage them? Too many flaws. But then again this is still an incomplete game. 

[Almighty_Jado]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

But how did chroma kill a sentient if “only void energy” can damage them? Too many flaws. But then again this is still an incomplete game. 

Considering the primary purpose of the Warframes was to fight the Sentients, I think that Sentients were not as hard to kill as they seemed. The reason why the Orokin struggled so much was because their technology was easily hacked by the Sentients, while the Warframes and Tenno weaponry are mostly analogue/biologically organic. In the end, Void energy is not the ONLY weakness of the Sentients, it’s just incredibly effective since the Sentients were designed to be weak against it.

If you ask why Eidolons require void damage exclusively to destroy their shields, it likely has something to do with the weird phase-shift afterlife that the Eidolon entered upon being destroyed. Sentients do have synthetic Oro, which may be a major factor, but that’s an entirely different argument altogether. The Eidolon appears to be an anomaly in Sentient physiology thanks to the Kuva it consumed. Other Sentients like Hunhow and his fighters are easily destroyers even without any influence of the Void. Remember in The Second dream? That is a great example: upon first meeting one of Hunhow’s conculysts, we struggled to take it down because it could adapt. Eventually though, we did it. But then once we found our operator, we could use the focus beam to annihilate them with ease. In conclusion, it’s possible to destroy a sentient without using Void energy, but it is easier if you do.

TL;DR: Warframes have been killing Sentients forever in the Old War

EDIT: also remember in The Sacrifice? Umbral Warframes were also employed against the Sentients as biological drones. They were effective, but ultimately failed because they were ‘feral’ enough to turn on the Orokin. Other than that though, they worked well as Anti-Sentient weapons.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Almighty_Jado

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

1 hour ago, Almighty_Jado said:

Considering the primary purpose of the Warframes was to fight the Sentients, I think that Sentients were not as hard to kill as they seemed. The reason why the Orokin struggled so much was because their technology was easily hacked by the Sentients, while the Warframes and Tenno weaponry are mostly analogue/biologically organic. In the end, Void energy is not the ONLY weakness of the Sentients, it’s just incredibly effective since the Sentients were designed to be weak against it.

If you ask why Eidolons require void damage exclusively to destroy their shields, it likely has something to do with the weird phase-shift afterlife that the Eidolon entered upon being destroyed. Sentients do have synthetic Oro, which may be a major factor, but that’s an entirely different argument altogether. The Eidolon appears to be an anomaly in Sentient physiology thanks to the Kuva it consumed. Other Sentients like Hunhow and his fighters are easily destroyers even without any influence of the Void. Remember in The Second dream? That is a great example: upon first meeting one of Hunhow’s conculysts, we struggled to take it down because it could adapt. Eventually though, we did it. But then once we found our operator, we could use the focus beam to annihilate them with ease. In conclusion, it’s possible to destroy a sentient without using Void energy, but it is easier if you do.

TL;DR: Warframes have been killing Sentients forever in the Old War

EDIT: also remember in The Sacrifice? Umbral Warframes were also employed against the Sentients as biological drones. They were effective, but ultimately failed because they were ‘feral’ enough to turn on the Orokin. Other than that though, they worked well as Anti-Sentient weapons.

The main reason why I suggest the War being able to damage shields and kill vomvalysts, is mainly because I’m tired of doing the exact same thing over and over which is basically just blast, blast, blast, blast. Other than the specific roles of the warframes(trinity heal, harrow protect, volt critical, and chroma/rhino damage) only other thing is switch to Tenno, blast them a lot, then switch back and shoot off a limb. Rinse, wash, repeat. 

And I chose the War because of the fact it is made from a sentient so it would be the only weapon(other than some future void weapons) that could deliver the final blow to vomvalysts or damage the eidolon shields. There would be an explanation to why only the War could damage shield but no other weapon. Other than that, it would like any other melee. But it would give the War purpose, again, and it would make hunting the tridolons a little more fun for some players who choose to use it, especially melee users. 

I’m not suggesting the War instakills the sentients, nor make the amps obsolete. Unless in hands of a chroma or rhino, the War would do just about the same damage a Void Beam. 

The advantages vs disadvantages:

Void beams have longer reach and can use the volt shields to gain critical. But have a recharge time. And Tenno can avoid damage. 

War has no recharge time and can be strengthen by weapon damage buffing abilities. But it requires to be up close and risky. 

So the difficulty won’t really change much at all. To me, it would be the same. BUT, there would be other options other than Void Beam, Void Beam, Void Beam, Void Beam, switch, shoot, shoot, shoot, destroy limb, take cover, switch Void Beam, etc..

I’m not suggesting DE completely change the entire Eidolon hunt. Just add a little something more than just blasting. It wouldn’t change the game and players don’t have to use the War. It would be purely your CHOICE. If anything else you could equip it with your primary just in case. Not to mention there have been times where I was glitched and couldn’t go in my Tenno at all no matter what I do. So this suggestion could’ve helped with that. Either way, my point is make the tridolon hunts more fun. Not easier. Really don’t see the problem with that. 

 

[Almighty_Jado]

So would the War take into account mods? Couldn't you just instadelete eidolon shields with a bloodrush/berserker build? The main problem is that if War or broken war, or the phantasma, or the sentient odachi were all capable of damaging the eidolon's shields, that creates some issues in terms of mods and such. It would in fact be easier if we never had to switch out of our Warframe- imagine Chroma, Rhino and some support dude with a min duration Harrow. Harrow makes everyone unable to take damage, then is guaranteed that maximum critical buff due to the amount of damage it soaks up. In the meantime, the melee folks have built up their combo counter then proceed to make the shields disappear with their sentient weapon of choice. This would become the new meta, so fast, and congrats! Amps and Tenno are pretty much obsolete in terms of damage dealing.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

37 minutes ago, Almighty_Jado said:

So would the War take into account mods? Couldn't you just instadelete eidolon shields with a bloodrush/berserker build? The main problem is that if War or broken war, or the phantasma, or the sentient odachi were all capable of damaging the eidolon's shields, that creates some issues in terms of mods and such. It would in fact be easier if we never had to switch out of our Warframe- imagine Chroma, Rhino and some support dude with a min duration Harrow. Harrow makes everyone unable to take damage, then is guaranteed that maximum critical buff due to the amount of damage it soaks up. In the meantime, the melee folks have built up their combo counter then proceed to make the shields disappear with their sentient weapon of choice. This would become the new meta, so fast, and congrats! Amps and Tenno are pretty much obsolete in terms of damage dealing.

Except Void Strike has made them insta kill the sentients shields and limbs. Like it only takes 1-2 seconds to destroy shields and limbs each time. Making it possible to beat 3 hydrolysts before morning. If DE wants, the war could do little damage that would require all those buffs. And those mods require a bit of time before it can build enough to inflict damage. With tridolons moving quickly you wouldn’t be able to hit that much unless you have a speed volt. The Void Strike tennos would be faster. I’ve used melees with those mods and a speed volt. And most melees have low critical chance except for the Fragor Prime. So it would take a lot of swings to damage. Only one that it would benefit is against the hydrolyst due to how tough it is but Void Strike tennos can still take it out within seconds. And when I mentioned the war doing about as much damage as the amps, yes, I calculated those mods. But I’ve also calculated the Void Strike too. And most players want Void Strike users for the hunts now so those who haven’t maxed it out are not so lucky with finding a good coordinated team. 

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

Amps don't kill Sentients because they are made from Sentients, they kill them because it is firing Void energy.

The Sentients only true weakness is the Void. Its energy does not follow any knowable logic, so it essentially fries the Sentient's adaption ability. War does not contain any Void energy nor can it effectively harness it.

[Almighty_Jado]

3 hours ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Amps don't kill Sentients because they are made from Sentients, they kill them because it is firing Void energy.

The Sentients only true weakness is the Void. Its energy does not follow any knowable logic, so it essentially fries the Sentient's adaption ability. War does not contain any Void energy nor can it effectively harness it.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

5 hours ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Amps don't kill Sentients because they are made from Sentients, they kill them because it is firing Void energy.

The Sentients only true weakness is the Void. Its energy does not follow any knowable logic, so it essentially fries the Sentient's adaption ability. War does not contain any Void energy nor can it effectively harness it.

If the amps, made from sentients, can amplify the void energy, then does that mean they have something in common? Only DE can really answer that. There’s a lot about the void and sentients DE hasn’t disclosed yet. So we can’t just assume or make fan theories to debunk some posts or ideas. 

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

If the amps, made from sentients, can amplify the void energy, then does that mean they have something in common? Only DE can really answer that. There’s a lot about the void and sentients DE hasn’t disclosed yet. So we can’t just assume or make fan theories to debunk some posts or ideas. 

Well we have to back up a bit. Its not officially confirmed that Amps are actually made from Sentient components. If Tyl Regor's remark about the Exilus Adapter has any merit, its entirely possible the "Sentient" look shared by the Sentients, Amps, and Adapters are just a design choice for some Orokin.

As for the relation between the Sentients and the Void, while not directly told it has been heavily implied that Sentients can't handle the Void is because of their innate adaptive design. Sentients, at their core, are evolving machines. They can analyze the environment and alter their systems to best handle it. This is how they can travel across solar systems without being incinerated. That said, to try and analyze an environment that is inherently illogical is impossible for a logic-based machine. Its like asking a calculator the meaning of life. As a result they wig out and die. Certain measures can be taken against this, like creating a sort of "environment suit" as seen in Octavia's Anthem, but this only help so much and leaves the Sentients in a decaying state. The only known Sentients to survive the Void were Hunhow, after transferring himself into a stagnant unfeeling sword, and Natah, after donning a mostly human body and burying herself deep within Lua. Its quite a fascinating thing to study from a physical perspective.

[Atsia]

10 hours ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Well we have to back up a bit. Its not officially confirmed that Amps are actually made from Sentient components. If Tyl Regor's remark about the Exilus Adapter has any merit, its entirely possible the "Sentient" look shared by the Sentients, Amps, and Adapters are just a design choice for some Orokin.

As for the relation between the Sentients and the Void, while not directly told it has been heavily implied that Sentients can't handle the Void is because of their innate adaptive design. Sentients, at their core, are evolving machines. They can analyze the environment and alter their systems to best handle it. This is how they can travel across solar systems without being incinerated. That said, to try and analyze an environment that is inherently illogical is impossible for a logic-based machine. Its like asking a calculator the meaning of life. As a result they wig out and die. Certain measures can be taken against this, like creating a sort of "environment suit" as seen in Octavia's Anthem, but this only help so much and leaves the Sentients in a decaying state. The only known Sentients to survive the Void were Hunhow, after transferring himself into a stagnant unfeeling sword, and Natah, after donning a mostly human body and burying herself deep within Lua. Its quite a fascinating thing to study from a physical perspective.

IIRC, it was straight up said that the Orokin deliberately put this "great flaw" into sentients in case they got any ideas, like say, coming back from Tau and starting a war. Most sentients (or at least the really powerful/ higher up ones) can actually survive in the void. The main issue about it is that the void renders sentients that survive barren, unable to reproduce, like with Natah and the Eidolon Sentient, though it's rumored that kuva can reverse that.

11 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

If the amps, made from sentients, can amplify the void energy, then does that mean they have something in common? Only DE can really answer that. There’s a lot about the void and sentients DE hasn’t disclosed yet. So we can’t just assume or make fan theories to debunk some posts or ideas. 

Well, sentients are explicitly weak to the void, so it's not to much of a stretch for that to also make them good conductors for it. But to you're original point, there nothing that really justifies such a thing. As I said, the only thing sentients are actually weak to is void energy, and operators are the only ready source of it. Unless DE puts in some other way to generate it, which I see as unlikely, it's supposed to be a unique player only thing.

[low1991]

On 2018-09-09 at 12:42 AM, Almighty_Jado said:

Amps and Tenno are pretty much obsolete in terms of damage dealing.

Maybe, let normal weapon dealt some damage with a lower damage cap to Eidolon' overshield, while operator' AMP & Void element dealt full damage with higher damage cap.

[Damocles]

New mod concept (Conversions)

Converts some% of <category of damage> to some% <another category of damage>

For War: Mod that turns Impact 100% into slash 200%, Thus, losing all impact and gaining it all in slash + a double for the fact you used a mod slot

For Eidolons hunting, primaries, secondaries, melees: converts 100% of ALL DAMAGE to 10% Void damage. Making it similar to using amps without going into squishy form.

Even other things like: Converts 50% of base Critical chance to base Status chance/ Converts 50% of base Status Chance to Critical Chance/ Converts some% reload to some% fire rate