The core gameplay flaw: healing, health, shields and general "staying alive" gameplay

[Artekkor]

18 минут назад, Synpai сказал:

I mean you could argue that good movement in WF/ killing ability is the same as your pure fighting skills. Experience and Options. Level 40 content I could sleep through on any frame. Level 80 content I watch shows through, but playing a game 5+ years will do that.

 

To be fair. L4D is not in the same genre. Warframe does in fact give you access to free restores and specters early on, but ultimately it's a looter where L4D is not. You could also choose the route of the Xiphos Med Tower Air Support and bring whatever you want, I did that for a while.

Just isn't 1-1. In Warframe if you want more healing and such, they entice you (although they tell you none of this, because WF is a very 'handsfree' game instruction-ally; which I hate) to go looking into caches and crates. I mean you're fighting literal hundreds of enemies, if a decent percentage dropped everything you needed, you'd have no need to slow down and explore/retreat.

Well i can sleep through level 40. Because i'm already part of the system. My health goes down - get melee out, do channeling, start slashing until there's no more enemies (because you keep taking damage through all that because shields are dead until all enemies are dead so nobody could shoot them anymore).

Rage is in 99% of all my warframes (except for couple of my so called "experimental" builds) and so is either Life Strike or Healing Return on all of my melees. And i NEVER go out without a melee. Health restores are on me at all times too, but i HATE to use them because they are obnoxious with their "waves" of healing. Just NO.

Its just then i go to Mesa and she's like "hey, i'm not supposed to have a melee you know" and i was like "wait, how do i heal myself then?" and then i turned into
  for 3 hours and that's how this thread was born.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Artek94

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Well yes. We are. We have to find 3rd party healing sources.

What? You mean my operator hoping in and out of my frame is 3rd party? I thought that he was the actual first party. 

Or using a tanky frame when I expect it to tank is a bad thing? Please don't tell my Rhino. 

Or using my actual health as a source of power for my abilities, and never noticing a significant problem isn't possible? Yeah my Nekros and Inaros will be going on strike if they find out. 

Or having my puppy along, or even one of the floating whatchamacallems to boost me as needed isn't a winning strategy either. 

And hey, I'm on a console so you know that I'm a couple of weeks behind you guys, but I suppose that staying airborne or rolling to avoid the majority of the predictable damage got taken out of the game by the last update. 😔

 

The fact is, Tenno, you can heal yourself. You can heal yourself in a lot of ways. But just like in real life, don't expect to get a limb chopped off and have it regrow instantly passively. 

[Syasob]

18 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Well, quiet frankly - i'm #$%^ doomed to die, because health orbs are useless.

Even if you're doomed health orbs have nothing to do with it. Bad set up does.

[Artekkor]

19 минут назад, (PS4)guzmantt1977 сказал:

What? You mean my operator hoping in and out of my frame is 3rd party? I thought that he was the actual first party. 

Or using a tanky frame when I expect it to tank is a bad thing? Please don't tell my Rhino. 

Or using my actual health as a source of power for my abilities, and never noticing a significant problem isn't possible? Yeah my Nekros and Inaros will be going on strike if they find out. 

Or having my puppy along, or even one of the floating whatchamacallems to boost me as needed isn't a winning strategy either. 

And hey, I'm on a console so you know that I'm a couple of weeks behind you guys, but I suppose that staying airborne or rolling to avoid the majority of the predictable damage got taken out of the game by the last update. 😔

 

The fact is, Tenno, you can heal yourself. You can heal yourself in a lot of ways. But just like in real life, don't expect to get a limb chopped off and have it regrow instantly passively. 

Operator - yes it is because its introduced mid-game and is not there by default.

So is a tanky warframe. Is Mag a tank? Don't think so.

Nekros spawns additional health orbs in ammounts so high they actually matter and Inaros actually has a build-in Life Strike into his ability kit.
Neither of them are starting frames also.

Pets are optional alltogether.

 

Yes i can heal myself. But by doing something outside of actual mission / combat. By doing something in the orbiter. If the game just picks me up and throws me into a battle without letting me prepare - that's it. Those health orbs are not gonna save me.
That's why i keep reffering to "core gameplay" and i should clarify that i call "core gameplay" something that's just THERE. Wether you want it or not - its THERE. Hence why its a "core".
The problem is: healing is not THERE. You must BRING IT THERE. Through outside sources which you must first unlock.

And ALL of the healing methods mentioned thus far are exactly that: outside progression-locked sources. Very definition of Optional too, because warframes are optional, so are guns, so are mods, so is building 9000 consumables with your credits and resources.

The only one that isn't is Health Orbs and they are worthless when you reach 35+ enemies and every single one of your warframes have 740 health or more.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Artek94

[Synpai]

40 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

"wait, how do i heal myself then?"

Well this thread has brought light to the many non-melee options. But to be fair Mesa is SLIGHTLY better without a melee. Really, it's not that much more health and if you're having trouble healing and don't want to use any other method then the answer is simple...keep the melee equipped.

25 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

That's why i keep reffering to "core gameplay" and i should clarify that i call "core gameplay" something that's just THERE. Wether you want it or not - its THERE. Hence why its a "core".
The problem is: healing is not THERE. You must BRING IT THERE. Through outside sources which you must first unlock.

As for your definition of "core" it is extremely skewed. Just because the game is not giving you a healing tower on every mission you play does not mean that it's not there. Using air support in survival drops health orbs for example. As well as higher odds to drop in caches. It does exist without preplanning, but the planning and modification is CORE to the gameplay. Like why doesn't the game just have weapons lying around for you to pick up when you don't feel like modding, leveling or building your guns to match content?

Even BL2 makes you make the choice of how you're going to heal. You can rely on the skill tree, grenades, weapon passive, or just run to a shop and buy it since the drop of health items isnt always allowed in places like challenge arenas and such. 

 

Also forgot to mention there's the Kuva Sceptor for more health orbs, just one method that's really impractical for most situations, but it's there.

 

Again, health orbs could definitely use improvement, but I don't think you'll ever not need the intent and preparation for consistent healing. Like they'd likely make it regenerate up to 100 extra health over time.

Warframe is closer to games like God Eater and traditional RPGs, where you have to buy into the potions. Although you are given restores and potions early, you will need more to sustain.

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Synpai

[Artekkor]

17 минут назад, Syasob сказал:

Even if you're doomed health orbs have nothing to do with it. Bad set up does.

Predicted comments - comment #2 - "Embrace your healing overlords".

I did. I'm just not happy that they are there. I would prefer for them to not be there and rather  actually me in the combat itself, not in the orbiter.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

19 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Operator - yes it is because its introduced mid-game and is not there by default.

Unlocked mid-game. And once unlocked always there by default. 

19 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

So is a tanky warframe. Is Mag a tank? Don't think so.

Rhino is literally the second one frame you can get. And if you want to use squishy frames you have two options, kill everything before it gets to you, or expect to need healing. 

19 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Nekros spawns additional health orbs in ammounts so high they actually matter and Inaros actually has a build-in Life Strike into his ability kit.
Neither of them are starting frames also.

MR 5, isn't a huge requirement, is it? And both of them show that there is choice. Every choice has a trade off, but it's available to you. 

19 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Pets are optional alltogether.

Everything is. That's why nothing is truly mandatory. 

19 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

And ALL of the healing methods mentioned thus far are exactly that: outside progression-locked sources. Very definition of Optional too, because warframes are optional, so are guns, so are mods, so is building 9000 consumables with your credits and resources.

So again you can see that none of them is mandatory. Not even your life strike. 

20 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

The only one that isn't is Health Orbs and they are worthless when you reach 35+ enemies and every single one of your warframes have 740 health or more.

You expect new, low MR players with only the starter frame to encounter level 35+ enemies? I don't. By that point, they have options. 

If you want to forsake every single option available to you, that's your call. But acting like giving up your favourite one means that none of the others exist isn't productive in any way. Not in the least. 

[Loza03]

56 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

But if i just... Don't? I picked another warframe, another weapon, didn't bring the consumable, mod or picked different focus school.

Then that was your mistake.

Going in unprepared is your decision.

[Artekkor]

3 минуты назад, Synpai сказал:

1) Well this thread has brought light to the many non-melee options. But to be fair Mesa is SLIGHTLY better without a melee. Really, it's not that much more health and if you're having trouble healing and don't want to use any other method then the answer is simple...keep the melee equipped.

2) As for your definition of "core" it is extremely skewed. Just because the game is not giving you a healing tower on every mission you play does not mean that it's not there. Using air support in survival drops health orbs for example. It does exist without preplanning, but the planning and modification is CORE to the gameplay. Like why doesn't the game just have weapons lying around for you to pick up when you don't feel like modding, leveling or building your guns to match content?

3) Even BL2 makes you make the choice of how you're going to heal. You can rely on the skill tree, grenades, weapon passive, or just run to a shop and buy it since the drop of health items isnt always allowed in places like challenge arenas and such. 

4) Also forgot to mention there's the Kuva Sceptor for more health orbs, just one method that's really impractical for most situations, but it's there.

5) Again, health orbs could definitely use improvement, but I don't think you'll ever not need the intent and preparation for consistent healing. Like they'd likely make it regenerate up to 100 extra health over time.

6) Warframe is closer to games like God Eater and traditional RPGs, where you have to buy into the potions. Although you are given restores and potions early, you will need more to sustain.

1) Yeah, except they're all something that i still have to actively seek out and bring with me. I can't just unequip melee and go out there. And yeah, that bonus is NOT worth it. Like, at all. SO WHY IS IT EVEN THERE?!

2) Yes, i agree. My definition is probably way too vague and stupid, but that's how i meant it. Maybe there's a better word for it, i don't know.

3) Borderlands had actually useful SHIELDS that actually did their job pretty good. And through the game you would find healing syringes that were actually good no matter how much health you had because they worked in percentages.

4) Well, quiet frankly i sold it because i hated it. In both fashion, performance and worthless "passive".

5) AT least we agree on that. I say - make them percentage based. That would be the simpliest solution i can think of.

6) I dont mind that. I played the games like that before. I wouild just prefer for it to be more... Engaging? Like a giant stack of health syringes that you keep stabing yourself with (with animation) would absolutely be fine by me. Health restores server same purpose but they are just not.... Fun... I hate them, alright?

[Artekkor]

7 минут назад, (PS4)guzmantt1977 сказал:

Unlocked mid-game. And once unlocked always there by default. 

Rhino is literally the second one frame you can get. And if you want to use squishy frames you have two options, kill everything before it gets to you, or expect to need healing. 

MR 5, isn't a huge requirement, is it? And both of them show that there is choice. Every choice has a trade off, but it's available to you. 

Everything is. That's why nothing is truly mandatory. 

So again you can see that none of them is mandatory. Not even your life strike. 

You expect new, low MR players with only the starter frame to encounter level 35+ enemies? I don't. By that point, they have options. 

If you want to forsake every single option available to you, that's your call. But acting like giving up your favourite one means that none of the others exist isn't productive in any way. Not in the least. 

That's the problem. None of this is MANDATORY because you can just pick to NOT DO IT because the game never tells you "hey maybe you actually should do that".

Except for taking damage. Its going to happen. That damage is coming, and that health will go down.
But healing is NOT coming. You must find it and you must make it. This desynchronisation is what bothering me.

Like, i would be absolutely fine if the game would just grab me, give me a bag of healing syringes (no matter what my setup / build is) that have a separate button and play one-second animation every time i use them and send me out like.
Except it didn't. If i want those syringes i have to make them. And they are the most boring S#&$ in history of ever (i'm talking about health restores of course).

So instead i settled for mandatory life strike in every single one of my melees, even if its unranked and unpotatoed. Although it starts to get really annoying that about every 10-15 seconds into somewhat higher-level mission i have to slooowly switch to melee (due to slightly unresponsive controls), make sure that channeling button didn't bug out and go heal myself. And then switch back to the gun in the same barely responsive way.

Hopefully melee 3.0 will make switching to melee and life striking things less tedious, but it'll probably won't.

[Artekkor]

By the way, sorry if im starting to sound more upset, stupid or insane as thread goes on - genuine thought-provoking discussions and debates with arguments take a fatique on me after some point and my thought process gets less refined than it was in the OP.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Here are my take.

1) Rejuvenation being my most used aura, because you can suffer a loss in damage from not having a Corrosive Projection, but 
having no HP you are effectively dead, sometime you have the luxury of time to walk to next objective while your HP replenishes.

2) Trinity being my most used warframe, I been playing before life strike, wind of purity etc appeared. 
So to answer your question I run 75% of my ~1700 hours Trinity.

Because shield is worthless unless you can regenerate it, HP the same, Blessing is cheaper than restores in the long run.
so punch the floor to heal up... uhm quite a strange animation but yeah.

3) Cover, as you mentioned, proper use of cover in this game is 100% damage reduction,
it can get annoying enough hiding behind cover but unless you are using Rhino or other tanky frames, 
it is better to get tactical.



Here are the options I have whenever I am not using Trinity.

Seriously this mod is very useful since health orbs is a rare thing



This when running with Nekros since usually you won't find health orb scatted around.

[ArcKnight9202]

I always found the scaling in this game to be bonkers. It often goes from "no problem" to "wow I died really fast". The scaling is especially noticed on damage-modified sorties.

There are so many ways for us to increase our killing abilities but we have to jump through hoops to have any kind of defensive edge. Shields have a bit of use against Corpus since their largely puncture-based weapons have a penalty to them. On low armor frames, this is actually the superior protection. It's still virtually trash when a Tech sees you, though.

Also, why are the most dangerous enemies in this game the ones that carry the pistols? The Kraken and Viper absolutely melt warframes. These things are far more dangerous than Bombards are. The Flameblades are seriously ridiculous, too.

From someone who uses Vazarin, Healing Return, and a Kavat, it still doesn't feel like enough sometimes. This is all just to counter the possibility I might not be on a sustainable frame all the time(which I'm usually not).

Anything to improve the feeling of attrition would be appreciated.

Edited October 23, 2018 by ArcKnight9202
Just wanted to state I'm almost entirely a solo player.

[Artekkor]

2 минуты назад, ArcKnight9202 сказал:

I always found the scaling in this game to be bonkers. It often goes from "no problem" to "wow I died really fast". The scaling is especially noticed on damage-modified sorties.

There are so many ways for us to increase our killing abilities but we have to jump through hoops to have any kind of defensive edge. Shields have a bit of use against Corpus since their largely puncture-based weapons have a penalty to them. On low armor frames, this is actually the superior protection. It's still virtually trash when a Tech sees you, though.

Also this. Like, jesus christ... Especially with eidolons. Perhaps its just my fault for not going to wiki and memorising every single one of their attacks, but they really do go from " 1000 shields was enough to keep me alive" to "1000 shields and 700 health with 700 armor was just oneshoted by barely telegraphed attack that covers 1 kilometer radius in every direction".

Unfortunately, getting casually oneshoted when you dont expect is a topic for another day and another thread. Here i just wanted to find (or rather suggest because there's NOT ANY) a way to cope with taking damage without having to go assemble and fine-tune a "LifeSaver9000" button on my keyboard.

[Synpai]

Just now, Artek94 said:

1) Yeah, except they're all something that i still have to actively seek out and bring with me. I can't just unequip melee and go out there. And yeah, that bonus is NOT worth it. Like, at all. SO WHY IS IT EVEN THERE?!

It's outdated...as I've mentioned in my first post. You CAN unequip melee and go out there using one of the many options presented to you.

 

3 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

5) AT least we agree on that. I say - make them percentage based. That would be the simpliest solution i can think of.

I mean...this means you're basically getting ~100 or 800(If you're Inaros) (assuming you have at least 1000 health and health orbs heal 10%) health. Health orbs are still seldom in base game play. That 100 hp orb is the same as a single high tier healing pad pulse, except you have to get lucky enough to pick it up which ultimately puts you in the same position at level 40 you could probably manage, but at level 80-100, less so. Then you have the toxin auras and procs, slash procs, random viral, slash, gas, or toxin damage modifiers on sorties.

You'd still need a consistent way to heal yourself. Even if they healed a massive 50% of your health, pickups in this game are automatic, unlike BL2. You take 1 HP worth of damage and lose a healing orb. They make it like BL2 and you still have the picking up in clusters like Sentinel's vaccum using multiple orbs (or Syringes) when you only need one.

Maybe they put little healing fountains randomly in the cache rooms? But there are still hundreds of enemies between you and that point. Then it just turns into a race of find the healing fountain. You'd have to bounce around the same way you do now and if you get dropped to <100HP and refuse to use a quick heal or avoidance method still a good change to go down. Any of the options presented are miles more straight forward. 

You make health orbs too common AND too powerful and everyone and their mom is using Health Convergence and vaccum to stay practically invulnerable. Then you have arcane pulse and grace to work around.

 

You get a high level toxin or bleed proc and don't do something to counter act it quickly, you die. The need to prep for sustain/spontaneous heal will still exist in a game like this. Adding healing stations to maps outside of the early game is a bit pointless and in the early game, shields manage fairly well. Not perfectly, but well.

16 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

6) I dont mind that. I played the games like that before. I wouild just prefer for it to be more... Engaging? Like a giant stack of health syringes that you keep stabing yourself with (with animation) would absolutely be fine by me. Health restores server same purpose but they are just not.... Fun... I hate them, alright?

Warframe is fast paced, still.

 

The dependence on Healing Pads which are the "cheapest" feeling method is alleviated by all of the other options presented to you.

Again, everyone knows that shield frames need more love defensively. But when it comes to healing, the options are paramount.

 

The weapons, frames, mods, etc. Tools you decide to bring with you before the match ARE apart of the combat.

Much like normal ammo drops are okay for some weapons, certain weapons or runs that require endurance will put a strain on your ammo supply and if you don't account for it, you'll be out of ammo, but there are tools to remedy this. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Artek94 said:

That's the problem. None of this is MANDATORY because you can just pick to NOT DO IT because the game never tells you "hey maybe you actually should do that".

So don't, pick any of the other options, or none if that's what floats your boat. But know that each is a trade off, and stop trying to blame the game for having to face the consequences of your choices. 

 

1 hour ago, Artek94 said:

Except for taking damage. Its going to happen. That damage is coming, and that health will go down.
But healing is NOT coming. You must find it and you must make it. This desynchronisation is what bothering me.

Ever find yourself in a high level capture mission? Or spy, or rescue? You see people cheese them dealing almost no damage and taking very little. If you choose to use a squishy frame, and try to tank without any damage reduction, and no healing, you can. But the result is pretty predictable. That's ultimately on you for making bad choices. 

 

1 hour ago, Artek94 said:

Like, i would be absolutely fine if the game would just grab me, give me a bag of healing syringes (no matter what my setup / build is) that have a separate button and play one-second animation every time i use them and send me out like.
Except it didn't. If i want those syringes i have to make them. And they are the most boring S#&amp;&#036; in history of ever (i'm talking about health restores of course).

I am not seeing why having to build health restores, and bind a key is difficult. I don't use them, personally, but I have them. I tend to prefer the ancient healers for when the team really needs help. 

1 hour ago, Artek94 said:

So instead i settled for mandatory life strike in every single one of my melees, even if its unranked and unpotatoed. 

Optional. 

1 hour ago, Artek94 said:

Although it starts to get really annoying that about every 10-15 seconds into somewhat higher-level mission i have to slooowly switch to melee (due to slightly unresponsive controls), make sure that channeling button didn't bug out and go heal myself.

Do you do anything to reduce the incoming damage? 

[Amhiel]

I belive you're expecting Warframe to be another game that it isn't. The design of the game gravitates completely around the concept of modding the S#&amp;&#036; out of everything and tailoring everything to a balance between the objectives and your preferred playstyle. Because of that the barebones are very basic while the modding system is extremely deep. I like warframe precisely because of that. You can bespoke even how the game mechanics work for you, but you have to make them do it. This is the core ethos of the game: you make it yourself. Instead of making all the decisions for you, they give you options so you can choose what you want. 

People in this thread have pointed out a ton of options to make the game behave the way you say you want it, you can take them and work it out and enjoy it. They made the game this way so anybody can find their cup of tea, brew it and add as much milk and sugar as they like. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

32 minutes ago, Amhiel said:

They made the game this way so anybody can find their cup of tea, brew it and add as much milk and sugar as they like. 

You go too far! Milk is an anathema to tea and coffee. It should only be paired with cocoa solids, certain cereals and possibly babies. 

Sugar on the other hand is always welcome. 

 

Have a great day. 😉

[Amhiel]

hace 7 minutos, (PS4)guzmantt1977 dijo:

You go too far! Milk is an anathema to tea and coffee. It should only be paired with cocoa solids, certain cereals and possibly babies. 

Sugar on the other hand is always welcome. 

 

Have a great day. 😉

I don't like milk with tea. On the other hand, ever heard of café aut lait, cappuccino, machiatto, cortado...? They're delicacies. 😂

A nice day to you too, sir. 

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, Amhiel said:

The design of the game gravitates completely around the concept of modding the S#&amp;&#036; out of everything and tailoring everything to a balance between the objectives and your preferred playstyle. Because of that the barebones are very basic while the modding system is extremely deep. I like warframe precisely because of that. You can bespoke even how the game mechanics work for you, but you have to make them do it. This is the core ethos of the game: you make it yourself. Instead of making all the decisions for you, they give you options so you can choose what you want. 

You make it sound as if there's some kind of grand design and purpose to the mods. It's really just a completely random assortment of junk picked out of a hat an accumulated over years. 99% of mods are useless, the rest are basically mandatory and build diversity is near inexistent.

 

I see a lot of nitpicking at the OP's post, and while there may be flaws in their argument, they have a point, and that's what you should be focusing on instead of pecking away at irrelevant details.

Very obviously health is of little or no use to squishy frames, which there quite a few of! No, I would not count Mesa among those, but that's not the point. They lose all or most their health in an instant, the game is often too chaotic in practice to avoid damage no matter how "skilled" you are, and effective healing is too cumbersome or involves important trade-offs you should not have to make for something so basic and necessary.

The solution as of now is to forget health exists and slap on QT, which is much more sustainable, but that comes with some nasty bugs that are probably going to sit in that ever growing pile forever.

I think shields should indeed be revisited, the OP makes some really good points about how the game has changed and the impact on shields. They are no longer relevant, they should be another viable alternative for frames that cannot rely on health, and so promote some of that build diversity.

[Amhiel]

hace 1 hora, Mudfam dijo:

You make it sound as if there's some kind of grand design and purpose to the mods. It's really just a completely random assortment of junk picked out of a hat an accumulated over years. 99% of mods are useless, the rest are basically mandatory and build diversity is near inexistent.

I wouldn't go as far as to say there is a grand design, we all know warframe is being improvised as we go but I do say there's an intention to allow you to customize your experience. The meta isn't the only way to build, basically because because we're overpowered enough to get away with many weird builds up to basically all the content available. Unless you're doing endurance runs or soloing 2 tridolons a night you have a lot of leeway. 

hace 1 hora, Mudfam dijo:

I think shields should indeed be revisited, the OP makes some really good points about how the game has changed and the impact on shields. They are no longer relevant, they should be another viable alternative for frames that cannot rely on health, and so promote some of that build diversity.

On that I agree and also with orbs being percentage based. Shields are pretty useless, I basically use them as a damage alarm clock 😅 

One very interesting fix that has been discussed in the past is shield gating, which I think would be pretty useful in making them worthwhile. 

[Artekkor]

3 часа назад, (PS4)guzmantt1977 сказал:

Do you do anything to reduce the incoming damage? 

Its as if you are implying i just run head first into enemies with famous W+M1 tactics.

Of course i try to avoid damage. I try to use skills (although i never spam, finding it a bad taste), i roll a lot - courtesy of Dark Souls experience, sometimes i try to act like Warframe is one of those hide behind cover games (although it gets boring very quickly and doesnt do much since enemies just spawn behind you very often). But after a certain point even being flanked by a grineer squad for 2 seconds is enough to chew through shields like they are nothing. Not to mention occassional events, when you just get randomly destroyed by a single enemy unit like a Bombard or Corpus Tech who got a good ambush on you.
Or when a fire eximus (or any heavy unit for that matter) knock you down and the entire grineer squad has you as their target practice, because you forgot Handspring (the best exilus mod in the game), so you get up with already no shields and a big  chunk of health missing.

Stuff happens, simple as that. No matter how hard you try sooner or later you either get overwhelmed or ambushed by a lucky enemy formation that just rips you apart.

[Amhiel]

hace 1 hora, Artek94 dijo:

Of course i try to avoid damage. I try to use skills (although i never spam, finding it a bad taste), i roll a lot - courtesy of Dark Souls experience, sometimes i try to act like Warframe is one of those hide behind cover games 

With all due respect, I think you're missing something in your defensive strategy which is moving as fast as possible and breaking enemy line of sight as often as possible. Enemies are very bad at tracking and aiming at you when you're doing that, even more than when you're rolling. When I play Mesa my strategy is usually having 2 and 3 up at all times, darting through the map and stopping only to activate 4 for a few seconds (making sure 3 is active before doing that) tank for 3 or 4 seconds and go back to darting. I don't feel the need for any defensive or healing mods whatsoever with her. 

[Darkuhn]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Artek94:

I want to be a strong independant no-melee Mesa (or any warframe) who doesn't need no health restores or Trinities when fighting level 40 enemies

have you tried Arcane Aegis? I use it on my Mesa and I have no problems surviving any Content from Sorties to ESO. I haven't used melee with Mesa in years and I don't use life strike on any melee weapon in my arsenal, as I don't need it to stay alive. Even Healing return is only on one Weapon and that is my exalted umbra blade with a CO build.

In my Opinion Life Strike is one of the more overrated mods in the game. Yes it can heal you to max Health with one hit, but that takes the last bit of danger out of fighting enemies that don't one-shot you.

Also Life Strike takes up a Mod slot that I can put to better use on every weapon.

And then there are Team Restores which cost nearly nothing and are spammable.  

Edited October 23, 2018 by Darkuhn

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, Artek94 said:

Its as if you are implying i just run head first into enemies with famous W+M1 tactics

No it was as if I was asking. But that's usually a pretty good strategy for folks with a good Ignis build, I've found. 

If they're all dead, it's a bit difficult for them to shoot you.