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Idea for Zephir and Chroma


Hawner
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Hi. I would like to share an idea I had that involves these 2 frames.

When Zephir came out, we all thought we would be flying around corridors or stay several meters above ground in open areas as we made bullets rain down over Greener, Corpus or Infested. Naturally, that couldn't be done at the time (technical issues, not a good idea at the time...). Now, we have Archwings and we can use them in open maps such as Plains of eidolon and the upcoming Fortuna.

Thing is, while every frame can use the archwing for that purpose (flying around the map), there is one that has her own "archwing", so to speak: Titania.

Obviously, it doesn't work the same. She becomes smaller (fairy size) in order to be able to manoeuver inside halls and such, and her speed isn't much greater than that of any other frame bullet-running. Still, it offers a mechanic normally unique for Archwing.

It is a feature obvious for a fairy-like frame to have, but so would it be for one based on a bird. Or a winged dragon.

That is why I thought of something to allow these two frames to become what I think they should. At least, as long as they are in the Eidolon fields or Fortuna's map, that is.

Note: I am going to mention Titania a lot for comparison, so you get the idea of what my ideas are.

 

Zephir:

This frame can use her first skill to impulse herself into the air at high speeds and cross the map with a couple uses of that ability. That is the second use, the first one being to stay for several seconds a couple of meters in the air and shoot from that advanced location.

My idea would be to change how that skill works only in maps such as Eidolon fields and such. In there, charging normally would activate the "flight mode", which would channel energy at a rate similar to Titania's 4th ability (maybe even a little slower) and allow for very fast movement around the map, and pressing Shift while on movement (the same we use to run) would give a speed boost (similar to the Archwing's turbo) for fast traveling.

Edit: suggested by (PS4)ArtPrince17, these change would work in a similar way as Vauban's Minelayer or Ivara's Quiver, where we can change the effect of the skill in a rotating fashion: one option leaves the skill as it is now and the other applies the changes I suggest. That way, those who want to use Tailwind/dive bomb as normal when both styles are available, they would be able to.

During the use of this "flight mode", and contrary to what you can do with Titania or the Archwing, you can't use any weapons at all (Titania has wings on her back, letting her hands free, and the Archwing does similar). However, if you stop in the air and press the ability again, you create air currents that keep you in the air stationary (can't move around while like that) but you can use your weapons to defend yourself, and then press it again to go back to "flight mode". Of course, while of "flight mode" you would be able to use other abilities to attack instead of your weapons.

Basically, Zephir would be a fast flyer, but not as offensive in combat as other frames without putting herself in danger (staying put in the air for long periods of time is not exactly a good idea). You would need to either change between "hovering mode" and "flight mode" during the fight to re-ubicate yourself to a better position or fly fast to a location and then land to fight the enemies.

 

Chroma:

We all know of the "sentry mode" you have by pressing the 4th ability. Chroma's armor grows some amazing wings, detaches itself and attacks to any enemies around it while the player moves around. I think those epic wings are very underused.

My idea for Chroma would be to add another effect to that ability. One press, the sentry detaches like normal; you keep the button pressed, the wings grow but the sentry stays, lifting you in the air for a channeling cost bigger than Titania's (big and heavy body, big energy cost).

Chroma is way heavier than Zephir, so his max speed would be a speed similar to Titania's without turbo, maybe even slower. In exchange, he can use all his weaponry all the time and also his other abilities, becoming quite the offensive dragon and the terror of all creatures bound to the ground (sorry, I had to add some epicness there. XP).

Adding to the energy cost, and this is something I just thought about, so I am not sure if it is a good idea or a terrible one, and to avoid spamming of this ability, after the energy consumed reaches the 50% mark, once the "flight mode" is deactivated, Chroma cannot recover energy from any source at all or use the "flight mode". However, half of the energy used for flying will be reimbursed in the lapse of 10 seconds, after which he will be able to recover energy like normal and fly again.

My logic behind that last part is that, even if he is a dragon, lifting his body and using his powers to attack is very tiring. So, once back on the ground, he needs to let his body rest for a couple of seconds. So to speak, it is more his body overexerting too much and needing to let it recover rather than how much energy it has. This will essentially limit the use of the "flight mode" of Chroma to battle situations or for showing off a little (I would like to be able to use him for flying around just like Zephir or Titania, but I don't know how without overpowering him).

 

I would like to reiterate again that these changes would only be for the Open-world maps, not normal tilesets. Titania can because she becomes tiny and it suits her, but flying around corridors and storage rooms with Zephir banging her head around or Chroma barely being able to move around due to his size, is not a good idea.

 

So, in essence, Zephir would be the fast and maneuverable one, Titania the middle-ground offensive-agile one, and Chroma the heavy offensive. Three frames capable to soar the skies, three different ways to do it.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited by Hawner
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37 minutes ago, Hawner said:

Zephir:

This frame can use her first skill to impulse herself into the air at high speeds and cross the map with a couple uses of that ability. That is the second use, the first one being to stay for several seconds a couple of meters in the air and shoot from that advanced location.

My idea would be to change how that skill works only in maps such as Eidolon fields and such. In there, charging normally would activate the "flight mode", which would channel energy at a rate similar to Titania's 4th ability (maybe even a little slower) and allow for very fast movement around the map, and pressing Shift while on movement (the same we use to run) would give a speed boost (similar to the Archwing's turbo) for fast traveling.

During the use of this "flight mode", and contrary to what you can do with Titania or the Archwing, you can't use any weapons at all (Titania has wings on her back, letting her hands free, and the Archwing does similar). However, if you stop in the air and press the ability again, you create air currents that keep you in the air stationary (can't move around while like that) but you can use your weapons to defend yourself, and then press it again to go back to "flight mode". Of course, while of "flight mode" you would be able to use other abilities to attack instead of your weapons.

Basically, Zephir would be a fast flyer, but not as offensive in combat as other frames without putting herself in danger (staying put in the air for long periods of time is not exactly a good idea). You would need to either change between "hovering mode" and "flight mode" during the fight to re-ubicate yourself to a better position or fly fast to a location and then land to fight the enemies.

The basic mechanics to her Tailwind should be left as is, that Charge function is what needs to be changed in my opinion.

What could be done is, have the Charge Toggle on her flight ability. The energy cost would be substantially lower than Titania`s as its more of Zephyr`s perk to be a flier, she would have the same movement capabilities and speed as Titania but with a difference, Flying straight with Shift held down would cause her to fly at the same speed and under the effect of Tailwind (Damage + Knockdown on contact) but the energy drain would significantly increase.

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hace 19 minutos, BiancaRoughfin dijo:

The basic mechanics to her Tailwind should be left as is, that Charge function is what needs to be changed in my opinion.

What could be done is, have the Charge Toggle on her flight ability. The energy cost would be substantially lower than Titania`s as its more of Zephyr`s perk to be a flier,

1

Eeeeeem, I think that is why I said, I think? 

In any case, the speed you suggest, while another viable option, would be too slow for a bird-based frame like Zephir. Titania floats more than flies, whereas Zephir, just like birds do, needs to use air currents just to keep herself in the air, and that requires speed. Therefore, having her fly around faster than titania is almost a must.

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2 minutes ago, Hawner said:

In any case, the speed you suggest, while another viable option, would be too slow for a bird-based frame like Zephir. Titania floats more than flies, whereas Zephir, just like birds do, needs to use air currents just to keep herself in the air, and that requires speed. Therefore, having her fly around faster than titania is almost a must.

Just the normal speed would be like Titanias, so you could have more maneuverability in smaller/tighter areas, the Shift button would cause her to fly much faster. Her normal Tailwind manages to leave Archwings behind in the plains, thats the Speed she would obtain with flight toggled and using Shift.

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hace 6 minutos, BiancaRoughfin dijo:

Just the normal speed would be like Titanias, so you could have more maneuverability in smaller/tighter areas

1

What you mean is that she should be able to "float" around like Titania does, and that is precisely what she shouldn't be able to do, not if we want her to be able to fight while she flies at least. Think of it like she were a hummingbird, capable of stopping mid-air and moving around easily. if she uses her arms to keep herself in the air like that, how is she going to be able to shoot? If she is to fly, she should be able to separate her flying style from Titania's, basically because she isn't Titania. She is a bird, not a fairy, therefore she has a different method of flying that is incompatible with slow floating around and still be efficient in the offensive. So, fast moving around, stop and create a current to keep herself in the air for a moment while she shoots, and then keep flying around to re-ubicate herself, FASTER than Titania, the same way that Chroma should be slower.

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4 minutes ago, Hawner said:

What you mean is that she should be able to "float" around like Titania does, and that is precisely what she shouldn't be able to do

Are you expecting her to simply flying straight when her Flight is toggled? If so them im not much in favor of it. She has to have some hover/maneuverability capabilities for combat.

5 minutes ago, Hawner said:

if she uses her arms to keep herself in the air like that, how is she going to be able to shoot?

Zephyr doesnt need to flap her arms to fly, she can control the air around her to keep her aloft.

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hace 3 minutos, BiancaRoughfin dijo:

Are you expecting her to simply flying straight when her Flight is toggled? If so them im not much in favor of it. She has to have some hover/maneuverability capabilities for combat.

Zephyr doesnt need to flap her arms to fly, she can control the air around her to keep her aloft.

Ugggh, did you read my post at all? No, I don't mean that she has to fly STRAIGHT. You know how the archwing has 3 speeds? Hovering, normal speed (shift) and afterburner (Shift + space. Turbo mode, so to speak). Well, Zephir would fly always with archwing's normal speed (maybe a little slower), more maneuverable and without weapons. Then, when you want to use your weapons, you cast the ability again to create a current that will keep you in the air, without being able to move up, down, left or right, but with the arms free to shoot at will, much like what the skill does now when you charge it on the ground.

So, she wouldn't be a birdy-Titania and float around like she does, but quickly fly around to find a suitable place to stop, float, attack and fly again.

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I support thisvery much.  Two frames that people have been begging/craving/wanting etc to be what they actually should be.  I'm not a Zephyr player myself but I won't lie either... she has SO much more potential that her current iteration.  Wasted potential for both frames tbh and imo it would take very little time/polish to give them sooo much more utility and qol.

Chroma Prime in the index... pelt on, wings out... (why even do that in the first place? that shows off something he's not capable of in game and something the fans have been asking for.. stahp trolling DE) ..anyways there's literally nothing other than maybe* a more pronounced flapping motion to add in the game and bam he's flying around like a larger but extremely short ranged version of titania.  While visually related, it doesn't copy her or any frames skills exactly therefor it wouldn't step on any toes. 

in fact speaking of her, Titania's teaming up and taking advantage of Vex/EW while buzzing around a Chroma.. both of them in the air as he short ranges with Spectral Scream and soaks up incoming damage being the larger target, and she pews targets further or focuses on heavies... frame synergy.  Even keep his rediculous drain if need be, but in the end it would give two of his unused skills synergy and make them more useful.  #Make4ARealUlt

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hace 3 minutos, Conflux59 dijo:

I support thisvery much.  Two frames that people have been begging/craving/wanting etc to be what they actually should be.  I'm not a Zephyr player myself but I won't lie either... she has SO much more potential that her current iteration.  Wasted potential for both frames tbh and imo it would take very little time/polish to give them sooo much more utility and qol.

Chroma Prime in the index... pelt on, wings out... (why even do that in the first place? that shows off something he's not capable of in game and something the fans have been asking for.. stahp trolling DE) ..anyways there's literally nothing other than maybe* a more pronounced flapping motion to add in the game and bam he's flying around like a larger but extremely short ranged version of titania.  While visually related, it doesn't copy her or any frames skills exactly therefor it wouldn't step on any toes. 

in fact speaking of her, Titania's teaming up and taking advantage of Vex/EW while buzzing around a Chroma.. both of them in the air as he short ranges with Spectral Scream and soaks up incoming damage being the larger target, and she pews targets further or focuses on heavies... frame synergy.  Even keep his rediculous drain if need be, but in the end it would give two of his unused skills synergy and make them more useful.  #Make4ARealUlt

Don't forget that we finally could have a flying dragon breathing fire down to our enemies. *shudders* Oh, now I want that even more.

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I have spent three freaking years on these forums with people coming up with ridiculous ideas as to how Zephyr would Fly, and every one of them has not only missed the point of the frame, they all have innate problems with the ability needing to either nerf the frame by taking something away to allow that flight, or needing to rework the rest of the kit to fit around it, and always, always, always they forget that a flying mode in Warframe is a cut-down form of Archwing which completely removes the ability to use 'X to Interact' functions.

Not only that, the only place where Flying is useful for a full-size frame is the Landscapes (Plains or Orb Vallis), Titania shrinks down so that she has some actual headroom. Zephyr already gets stuck on doors and objects while in the air, and people complain about it all the time. Don't make it worse by giving her a function that makes her do that all the time.

For the 600th and more time... Stop trying to nerf my frame with flying!

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hace 2 horas, Thaylien dijo:

I have spent three freaking years on these forums with people coming up with ridiculous ideas as to how Zephyr would Fly, and every one of them has not only missed the point of the frame, they all have innate problems with the ability needing to either nerf the frame by taking something away to allow that flight, or needing to rework the rest of the kit to fit around it, and always, always, always they forget that a flying mode in Warframe is a cut-down form of Archwing which completely removes the ability to use 'X to Interact' functions.

Not only that, the only place where Flying is useful for a full-size frame is the Landscapes (Plains or Orb Vallis), Titania shrinks down so that she has some actual headroom. Zephyr already gets stuck on doors and objects while in the air, and people complain about it all the time. Don't make it worse by giving her a function that makes her do that all the time.

For the 600th and more time... Stop trying to nerf my frame with flying!

Pal, relax a bit. This idea is only, I repeat, ONLY for maps like Plains of eidolon and similar, not for indoor tilesets. I even explain the reasoning for that, one of the reason is exactly what you said.

Also, I can interact with X while using the Archwing without any problem, so that issue does not affect at all, even less taking into account that Zephir would have to land anyway in order to interact with anything, but that already happens even now without her flying around.

I took all, or almost all, factors into consideration before suggesting this idea. It won't screw your normal playingstyle, only the possibilities in open-world maps, theoretically without any detriment at all. Balancing energy cost, movement speed and such may take a while, but that's it.

Your post suggests you haven't read the idea at all since you brought up the "banging against walls in hallways" thing. Please, take a couple of minutes to read it and, then, come back and tell me what may be wrong with it.

 

EDIT: by the way, in what kind of situation is so important to use X while on an Archwing? So far, I only know those ammo dispensers, and that is not so important.

Edited by Hawner
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16 minutes ago, Hawner said:

Pal, relax a bit. This idea is only, I repeat, ONLY for maps like Plains of eidolon and similar, not for indoor tilesets. I even explain the reasoning for that, one of the reason is exactly what you said.

i doubt they would make it that certain frames get different kind of ability interactions for a specific tileset.

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hace 2 minutos, Atsia dijo:

i doubt they would make it that certain frames get different kind of ability interactions for a specific tileset.

Maybe they won't, that is an obvious possibility, but maybe DE likes the idea or have their own based on this one. That is the whole point of making suggestions on the forum.

In any case, there are already frames that can use some abilities a bit differently depending on the tileset. Zephir, for example, can impulse herself in the air, which was a very new feature unique to her until DE made it a must for the gameplay mechanics (bullet-jump). For a while, it was something only she could do. The same happens with Titania, she is the only one who can fly around like that. Ironically, that ability is better suited for indoors rather than open-world maps. Nova's portal is an old mechanic that gains a new dimension on open-world maps. The list goes on. In their own way, each warframe interacts somewhat differently on each tileset. Ivara is yet another example of that.

Maybe this is pointless, I know that. Maybe you are right and Titania was a very specific exception, but if we don't offer our ideas, this forum becomes just a "non-profesional bugs and problems support platform".

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2 hours ago, Hawner said:

EDIT: by the way, in what kind of situation is so important to use X while on an Archwing? So far, I only know those ammo dispensers, and that is not so important.

I actually listed a few; Open containers, revive a team member, hack a console, pick up a data mass. These things you have to interact with are not exclusive to the tile-sets. 

That said, there is absolutely no way that DE are going to bring in unique abilities for frames that only appear on open landscapes. That came up and was completely debunked back last year during the run up to, release of, and months of troubleshooting for Plains. We tried that one, we argued for that one, we stormed all sorts of media to get something like that confirmed, and it didn't work.

Warframes are warframes, location doesn't matter, only modding matters in how they perform.

Outside of that, why would you want to make an ability that's exclusive to the Open Landscapes when the base function of Tailwind already makes it difficult to use freely anywhere outside the Open Landscapes? Tailwind is incredibly fast, mobile and energy efficient when you're out on the plains and the only thing you can't do with it is a static hover. That static hover could be implemented from her existing kit and allow her more control over Tailwind everywhere, not just the Plains, and would be infinitely better than trying to work in some kind of Plains-only Archwing mode.

Even further, because this is a discussion I've had on a hundred other Zephyr threads over the course of 2017 and earlier, did you stop to consider what the functioning cost of this ability would be?

On Titania it's a Drain, and on Zephyr it would be a Drain. Doesn't matter how cheap you make it, because Drain functions all work the same way; they block energy regen, ability gifted energy and Energy Restores.

Flying on Zephyr... it's just a nerf. I'm sorry, but you're late to all the discussions about it, there isn't a version that you can put on an ability that would not be ungainly, inappropriate for the 95% of the game that is not Plain or Orb Vallis, and there isn't even anything you can gain from it. Anything that a flying Zephyr could do, a non-flying one could do if you let the Hover function she already has be cast while mobile and in the air.

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5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I have spent three freaking years on these forums with people coming up with ridiculous ideas as to how Zephyr would Fly, and every one of them has not only missed the point of the frame, they all have innate problems with the ability needing to either nerf the frame by taking something away to allow that flight, or needing to rework the rest of the kit to fit around it, and always, always, always they forget that a flying mode in Warframe is a cut-down form of Archwing which completely removes the ability to use 'X to Interact' functions.

Not only that, the only place where Flying is useful for a full-size frame is the Landscapes (Plains or Orb Vallis), Titania shrinks down so that she has some actual headroom. Zephyr already gets stuck on doors and objects while in the air, and people complain about it all the time. Don't make it worse by giving her a function that makes her do that all the time.

For the 600th and more time... Stop trying to nerf my frame with flying!

There was a point and time where I remember requesting her tornadoes lifting players back up and resetting aim glide duration

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1 minute ago, Synpai said:

There was a point and time where I remember requesting her tornadoes lifting players back up and resetting aim glide duration

Yeah, and that was also coupled with a discussion on completely removing Tailwind and giving her low-gravity passive a boost into High Speed Aim Glide, like this:

Superglide_KHBBS.gif

But this was also based entirely off the fact that Tailwind is, and was, her weakest ability and that moving Dive Bomb to her 1 (and buffing it up to have a ground-based function), while giving her a new 2.

I remember those ones well.

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hace 4 horas, Thaylien dijo:

 

 

I see your points, and you are right on some of them. However, they are only minor nuances against a lot of benefits.

 

hace 4 horas, Thaylien dijo:

I actually listed a few; Open containers, revive a team member, hack a console, pick up a data mass. These things you have to interact with are not exclusive to the tile-sets. 

 

Since those already have to be done while on the ground, there is no real change whatsoever. All frames have to stay on the ground, nothing would change.

 

hace 4 horas, Thaylien dijo:

Outside of that, why would you want to make an ability that's exclusive to the Open Landscapes when the base function of Tailwind already makes it difficult to use freely anywhere outside the Open Landscapes? Tailwind is incredibly fast, mobile and energy efficient when you're out on the plains and the only thing you can't do with it is a static hover. That static hover could be implemented from her existing kit and allow her more control over Tailwind everywhere, not just the Plains, and would be infinitely better than trying to work in some kind of Plains-only Archwing mode.

 

Because you are using that skill incorrectly. What is the effect right now? If you are on the ground, you charge it and then you are lifted a few meters in the air, remaining there for a certain duration; if you are already in the air, be it for the first effect or because you jumped, you perform a dash-like attack, damaging anything in the way, much like Excalibur's Dash or Rhino's Charge.

There are 3 major uses for this skill as it is right now:

1. Advanced shooting location. While you remain in the air, you have a clear vision of the enemies below you, so shooting them is easier. The problem with this is that you become a static target, so you are going to get a lot of shooting in your direction.

2. Offensive attack. No need for explanation here, we all know how this works.

3. Mobility booster. Right now, all frames can perform a Bullet-jump, but at the time of Zephir's release, that didn't exist. It was a revolution to be able to move around the rooms as Zephir did. And even now, only she can reach certain places or move certain distances with one use of this skill where any other frame would need several BJ, if they were able to reach it at all.

If you bang your head too much with this skill, if you can't seem to make it work, it's because you don't use it right. You don't use it like the Excalibur's or Rhino's skills I mentioned, it has a different mechanic you have to take into account. If you attack with it, you have to do it from above (that is why the first step of the skill lifts you) and aiming to the ground, so the excessive distance you can travel with it doesn't bother you; if you want mobility, you are probably going to use it to travel a distance where BJ would not take you, so banging your head, if you actually do it, is a minor price for fast travel; if you find yourself in a dire situation, using this skill takes you away from danger, and I mean AWAY, far enough so you can recover.

In the plains, where I am saying my idea would apply, battle situations are a bit different. Enemies tend to be more scattered, there is normally no platform you need to go to that can't be reached with a BJ... So changing how the skill works there is good. What it would do is turn the BJ-like dash and turn it into an actual flight (you know, because she is a bird) that would make her more agile on the battlefield, harder to hit and gives her the upper hand in strategic location (you know, like the bird she is).

the skill to dash your way through the skies is very energy-inefficient and very uncomfortable to use, not to mention you barely have any control. This idea would change all that.

 

hace 4 horas, Thaylien dijo:

Even further, because this is a discussion I've had on a hundred other Zephyr threads over the course of 2017 and earlier, did you stop to consider what the functioning cost of this ability would be?

On Titania it's a Drain, and on Zephyr it would be a Drain. Doesn't matter how cheap you make it, because Drain functions all work the same way; they block energy regen, ability gifted energy and Energy Restores.

2

Yes, it is obvious that it has to work that way. All birds have to land at some point to rest and eat, why wouldn't Zephir? It is the perfect method to simulate "resting" and to avoid excessive use as well as the use of too many other skills while you fly. That not only helps regulate its use, it adds at least 2 new gamestyles: either you fly long periods an barely use other skills as you shoot or you move both on land and flying, re-ubicating continually and use the energy for the other skills.

 

hace 4 horas, Thaylien dijo:

Flying on Zephyr... it's just a nerf. I'm sorry, but you're late to all the discussions about it, there isn't a version that you can put on an ability that would not be ungainly, inappropriate for the 95% of the game that is not Plain or Orb Vallis, and there isn't even anything you can gain from it. Anything that a flying Zephyr could do, a non-flying one could do if you let the Hover function she already has be cast while mobile and in the air.

1

I don't see it as a Nerf. That would entail that I take something from Zephir and make her weaker, whereas I am adding and making her stronger and opening more possibilities. All your negative points are easily negated because it does not take anything away, so you are just saying is bad because it adds things.

The hover function you speak about would not allow Zephir to stop 30 meters above the enemies, then quickly re-locate 15 meters to their right, now fly through them and stop 20 meters on the other side while shooting at each stop, but make her a slowly-moving barely-aerial target.

Zephir is about being agile, about movement, and that is what this would give without taking anything away. May need some or even a lot of tweaking? Sure it will! But it would be a possitive change.

Edited by Hawner
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hace 4 minutos, (PS4)ArtPrince17 dijo:

Hmm... why not just make it a two in one ability? Like Vauban's Minelayer or Ivara's Quiver. That way you wouldn't have to deal with all of the "DE isn't gonna do location based abilities" comments. Have Tail Wind / Dive Bomb work how it is now, and switch to have your prolonged flight version of the ability.

That is a very good point. It would also allow players who like the style we have now to keep using it without fear of activating the new by accident. Or even use both in the middle of the battle. Very good. ^^

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12 hours ago, Hawner said:

 

Zephir is about being agile, about movement, and that is what this would give without taking anything away. May need some or even a lot of tweaking? Sure it will! But it would be a possitive change.

 

Zephyr, please call her by the correct name. Zephir may be correct in other situations and environments, but here in warframe it is Zephyr.

But to the stuff that actually matters instead of what's instantly become a pet peeve...

 

Giving Zephyr archwing style flight is a barrel full of negative changes.

Zephyr is a jet, not a helicopter. I don't want flight on Zephyr because I can already get that on Titania. And I can use archwing charges in the plains. I know my Itzal works wonders. It's already in the game as something I can use at any time in multiple fashions. Having flight on both Zephyr and Titania is redundant and that's a sin for hero systems like this. The two frames serve difference niches and this point alone makes such flight on Zephyr extremely unlikely. Titania enjoys air superiority. Zephyr goes from here to there now. 'Cause she's a bird' is not helpful when DE has very obviously passed up putting the ability on 'the bird frame'. That it isn't there is telling. And I'm not talking about when Zephyr was released because 'flight wasn't an option within the game mechanics wise at that time'. I'm also talking about the recent... 'rework' they gave her.

She already stays in the air for an exceptionally long time simply due to her gravity passive and tailwind dashes though. And did you notice you can easily steer which direction she's floating while airborne? This provides a great deal of very subtle control. It feels so natural once you begin to use it that you don't even notice. But for making tailwind better? There has been reams and reams of feedback on methods to make Tailwind functionally better without turning it into a flight mechanic. Guess what, literal years of conversation and feedback were ignored for the ability to fart your way into a temporary hover. But they did change how duration works on Tailwind to make it much harder to mod turbulence and still be able to control tailwind in a reasonable manner. They did however remove an utterly reliable feature of tailwind by taking away the quick launch. It worked the same, all the time, every time. Up and go. I'd honestly love to have that back.

And again, Turbulence. Do you play Zephyr without turbulence? How often do you cast it. How often to you forget to keep it up? How much energy does it use? There is a very strong push to have turbulence with a long duration, which immediately makes tailwind difficult to use. Even then Turbulence costs a lot of energy. But unlinking the duration from Tailwind would immediately make her far more malleable in terms of modding. But back to energy.

Having flight on Zephyr is a nerf because she is already an energy hog just keeping turbulence running. Drain is a huge detriment in terms of keeping your energy stores full and that's the point. It's made on the assumption that it's there to make it difficult to keep your energy pool from rapidly diminishing. So disabling passive regeneration is a problem, especially for newer players just getting into what's already a difficult to understand frame. Once you're out of energy, you're out of turbulence and that ability is Zephyr's lifeblood, without it she just dies.

Here's another problem, there were two reasons Titania was shrunk to make her flight reasonable. The first of course is narrow corridors. The second problem, although related problem, is the skybox. Low gravity extends the distance of her jump. How many rooms can you simply bullet jump upwards and not have yourself reset back onto the ground? There are rooms Zephyr can just jump normally and be reset, better recast turbulence, hope you're not out of energy. This is a terribly annoying problem for Zephyr and to fix it would require a great deal of work on so many tilesets. But speaking of getting stuck, imagine if, when striking a surface with tailwind, Zephyr either started wall jumping or wall latched instead of just grinding her nose on the wall like it might magically disappear if she just tried harder. That didn't happen, just one of many suggestions made that seems to have never reached the appropriate eyes.

 

So for flight we are Nerfing her energy regeneration. We are copying Titania, but also in a way that is worse. We are forcing DE to either hamstring Zephyr or edit a bunch of tile sets. We have already ignored four years of feedback, only ever patching turbulence problems, nothing else. And we haven't even BEGUN to talk about how flight would change her power budget. What else would have to change to accommodate such a huge change to her kit.

There are things Zephyr needs, and more that she frankly just wants. But I strongly disagree that actual flight is one of them. And, I mean, if you wanna scratch that itch, go out into the plains, get your archwing and start tunnel diving. You'll find out very quickly how much DE wants flying things that aren't Titania in those tunnels.

 

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hace 8 horas, Caelward dijo:

Zephyr is a jet, not a helicopter.

 

You are correct, which is why I would like for her to actually fly instead of the Helicopter-mode (hovering) you like so much... or not, since you just said she is not a helicopter.

 

hace 8 horas, Caelward dijo:

I don't want flight on Zephyr because I can already get that on Titania. And I can use archwing charges in the plains.

2

Ok, then let's make a poll, we all choose 1 frame and let's all use only that one for the rest of the game. It would be interesting to see how the game would progress if everyone can only use, let's say Excalibur. It's exactly the same logic you are offering.

We have several tanks, but each has its own way of tanking; we have a couple of healers, but each heals in a different way; we have room-cleaners (Like Nova, Volt, Saryn...), but each does it in a different way. It is reasonable that more than 1 frame could fly and get benefits from strategic location and alternative traveling options (You know, like Titania has, or Nova with her portal, or Volt with his speed boost). The very point on having so many different frames is to have as many options even for the same thing. So, your reasoning is incorrect.

 

hace 8 horas, Caelward dijo:

And again, Turbulence. Do you play Zephyr without turbulence? How often do you cast it. How often to you forget to keep it up? How much energy does it use? There is a very strong push to have turbulence with a long duration, which immediately makes tailwind difficult to use. Even then Turbulence costs a lot of energy. But unlinking the duration from Tailwind would immediately make her far more malleable in terms of modding. But back to energy.

Having flight on Zephyr is a nerf because she is already an energy hog just keeping turbulence running. Drain is a huge detriment in terms of keeping your energy stores full and that's the point. It's made on the assumption that it's there to make it difficult to keep your energy pool from rapidly diminishing. So disabling passive regeneration is a problem, especially for newer players just getting into what's already a difficult to understand frame. Once you're out of energy, you're out of turbulence and that ability is Zephyr's lifeblood, without it she just dies.

1

Unless there is a mechanic I don't know about, Turbulence shields you from incoming projectile damage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is only a problem if you are stationary or not moving around, right? Like, when you are hovering? I wonder why would ZephYr be stationary in front of several enemies if she is not a helicopter.

If you play correctly, you will not stay at the same location for long, just enough to shoot a bit and then relocate. That reduces the chances of being hit by a lot. What Turbulence gives you is a reason to stay in front of enemies without fear of being hit, which is wrong. She is NOT a tank, so the use of that skill should be very sporadic (escaping a group of too many enemies, reviving an ally...). If you are the kind of player that uses it ALL THE TIME to the point of being a catastrophe if you forget to reactivate it, that is because you are lazy and don't want to move. Basically, it's the exact same problem there is with many frames that have too powerful ultis, either being capable of killing anything in the room at a relatively low cost or can leave that same skill on for an eternity. You want to be immortal and the player with most kills without effort. I am against that.

Which is why I offer an alternative that fits ZephYr style, gives you a lot of mobility to avoid almost/all damage income (if you move enough, bullets can't hit you) and it's fair because you actually have to work for it. You save energy while you fly since you don't need Turbulence and, since you have to land anyway every once in a while, energy can be replenished easily.

Don't use the "New players" excuse, please. You don't get access to ZephYr unless you are in a clan that has investigated her, and even then you still need quite some credits and materials a new player doesn't have or would need to farm for, so they get enough experience in how the game works before having her. And even then, the mechanics are not so complicated. Less so my idea, now I think about it, since she just flies around stops only for shooting, casts tornadoes wherever she goes.. whereas right now you have to keep always one eye on the energy meter, another on the duration of Turbulence, know where the escape route is in case something fails... That is complicated.

 

hace 8 horas, Caelward dijo:

Here's another problem, there were two reasons Titania was shrunk to make her flight reasonable. The first of course is narrow corridors. The second problem, although related problem, is the skybox. Low gravity extends the distance of her jump. How many rooms can you simply bullet jump upwards and not have yourself reset back onto the ground? There are rooms Zephyr can just jump normally and be reset, better recast turbulence, hope you're not out of energy. This is a terribly annoying problem for Zephyr and to fix it would require a great deal of work on so many tilesets. But speaking of getting stuck, imagine if, when striking a surface with tailwind, Zephyr either started wall jumping or wall latched instead of just grinding her nose on the wall like it might magically disappear if she just tried harder. That didn't happen, just one of many suggestions made that seems to have never reached the appropriate eyes.

3

I am starting to think that people here don't read before posting. SHE WOULDN'T FLY IN NORMAL TILESETS, ONLY IN OPEN-WORLD MAPS LIKE PLAIN OF EIDOLON!!

Moving on.

hace 8 horas, Caelward dijo:

So for flight we are Nerfing her energy regeneration. We are copying Titania, but also in a way that is worse. We are forcing DE to either hamstring Zephyr or edit a bunch of tile sets. We have already ignored four years of feedback, only ever patching turbulence problems, nothing else. And we haven't even BEGUN to talk about how flight would change her power budget. What else would have to change to accommodate such a huge change to her kit.

There are things Zephyr needs, and more that she frankly just wants. But I strongly disagree that actual flight is one of them. And, I mean, if you wanna scratch that itch, go out into the plains, get your archwing and start tunnel diving. You'll find out very quickly how much DE wants flying things that aren't Titania in those tunnels.

 

6

So far, I've proven you wrong on nerfing energy regeneration, copying Titania, problems with normal tilesets... Yeah, I think that covers everything.

Flying doesn't have to change her power budget at all. If anything, and this is personal opinion, not something I would suggest since THAT would be overpowering her, she should deal more damage with tornadoes and ramming against enemies while flying. Since she is not on the ground, placing the tornados would be a little more sporadic than it is now, so there would be a need to make up for that. Another option would be to do the opposite and reduce the damage they do but allow for more parallel uses, and make ZephYr a CC frame  (Maybe make that an augment mod?).

Those are details that would have to be addressed if and when DE thinks the idea is good enough to work on it (or even around it). Right now it's just a concept.

There are many things that all warframe needs, but this post is not about that. If you want to address problems any frame have, go to the appropriate section of the forum. Here, I am sharing an idea, a concept for two frames that lack something I think they should have. Instead of not reading my post (because you just showed you didn't with the "tileset issue") and saying is rubbish, a nerf and all that, take a couple of minutes to read it, consider it, and see how it could be better if and when this idea got accepted. Instead of turning down what could be beneficial with some working, or even just using a fraction of it, be nice and participate in a constructive manner.

Edited by Hawner
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Leave this one, @Caelward they're going counter-logical now.

Says that multiple frames do similar things, except differently, then re-iterates that Zephyr should fly like Titania... genius.

Still insists on the idea of only flying on the Plains or open landscapes.

Thinks that energy efficiency won't be affected by a drain.

Believes you don't need Turbulence if you're mobile against Hitscan enemies.

Thinks that they want a Jet, not a helicopter when they clearly stated that they want to 'allow Zephir to stop 30 meters above the enemies, then quickly re-locate 15 meters to their right, now fly through them and stop 20 meters on the other side while shooting at each stop'.

This one's a lot cause.

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hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Leave this one, @Caelward they're going counter-logical now.

 

I don't need to, you have no logic to counter.

 

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Says that multiple frames do similar things, except differently, then re-iterates that Zephyr should fly like Titania... genius.

 

 

Maybe that one is my fault, I probably didn't express myself clearly on that one. I'll be more specific:

Zephyr should be able to fly, coma, just like Titania is able to. That doesn't mean "fly in the same way titania does", coma, but simply being able to fly.

Clear enough?

 

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Still insists on the idea of only flying on the Plains or open landscapes.

 

That is because you keep bringing up problems flying in normal tilesets, when I very clearly stated several times that she would NOT be flying indoors.

 

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Thinks that energy efficiency won't be affected by a drain.

 

I didn't say "not being affected", more like "not being affected negatively", and that is after I also clearly said that energy costs and those kinds of details could be tinkered with if and when the concept itself where to be worked on.

 

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Believes you don't need Turbulence if you're mobile against Hitscan enemies.

 

While I indeed said that you could avoid all damage, I clearly stated it as a second of 2 possible outcomes. Let me quote myself.

hace 2 horas, Hawner dijo:

Which is why I offer an alternative that fits ZephYr style, gives you a lot of mobility to avoid almost/all damage income (if you move enough, bullets can't hit you)

 

For any normal people, it is easy to understand that, on normal circumstances, one would be able to avoid all damage that way because bullets would not land. However, it is very obvious that there are enemies, or more specifically some weapons, land hit almost always or even no matter what we do. Now, would Turbulence be handy on those cases? Well yes, obviously. But since we are working very specific situations that break the rule, there is also one thing that helps not being killed when an enemy capable to of one-shot kill you is around: stay with your team-mates to join forces. That will reduce drastically the chances of the terrible weapons to kill you even if you don't use Turbulence.

Also, since Zephyr would still be able to cast tornados, which have some CC effect, don't you think that would not be such a big problem if you use the tornados on those enemies? Also, don't you think that the fact that you are farther away from the enemies than your team-mates would affect which target the enemy chooses?

As I said, I prefer strategy instead of "one-button press and forget". Think about it.

 

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Thinks that they want a Jet, not a helicopter when they clearly stated that they want to 'allow Zephir to stop 30 meters above the enemies, then quickly re-locate 15 meters to their right, now fly through them and stop 20 meters on the other side while shooting at each stop'.

 

I also said that I didn't want to take anything away but to add some features, and that includes her ability to hover, which is a COMPLEMENT to the whole pack, not the main effect.

Also, there is one kind of jet that can stay stationary in the air due to its capability of ascending and descending vertically. Its called Harrier, if my memory serves right.

Also, being capable of flying around AND hover for short periods of time is very similar to what Hummingbirds can do. And Zephyr is a bird, am I right?

 

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

This one's a lot cause.

1

You took the words right out of my mouth. ^^

Edited by Hawner
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2 minutes ago, Hawner said:

I don't need to, you have no logic to counter.

1. Warframes do not get different abilities just for going onto a different mission. This was raised and turned down by DE over a year ago. You do not get to say that this flying ability would 'only work on the plains', that is not an option.

2. There is no other way to fly than the way Titania flies, it's entirely based off the Archwing mode of play, which is a bolt-on for the game engine. I was there when it was introduced, I was there when they made Sharkwing, I was there when they made Titania and I was there when they created the Plains Archwing. I know exactly the problems they had and was paying attention when they explained the limitations. You are asking her to fly like Titania because you can't fly like anything else.

3. Damage in Warframe scales. If you are avoiding 'almost all' damage then you're not avoiding enough damage to stay alive with Zephyr. Mobility is only partially a damage reducing method. If you do not know this, you have either not been playing long enough, or going past a certain difficulty level. Without Turbulence up you will be shot and you will die because Zephyr does not have the armour or any other form of damage mitigation to stop that.

4. Energy drain being introduced to a frame that does not have it mathematically causes energy management nerfs. We have done the calculations multiple times, with multiple people trying to argue different. There is no method you could introduce 'flight' to Zephyr that would not be a nerf to energy management.

5. I am English, we make the Harrier, it exists. What you may not know is that the Harrier is also one of the few sub-sonic military jets left in production, every other jet produced since the 1970's has been capable of at least Mach 1, if not up to Mach 3 or higher. The Harrier is not a fast jet. It just happens to have a jet shape.

6. Zephyr is visually a bird, only, she is an Air Caster functionally. In the same way that Valkyr is visually a Cat, but functionally a Berserker.

I have been playing Zephyr for over 4 years, as my most used frame, with 25% of my 1500 hours in mission (not idling in the ship or relays) on her. I have taken Zephyr, before and after her rework through multi-hour survivals in teams and solo. I have also spent a full two years here on the forum discussing ways to make Zephyr stronger, contributing to over 600 threads in 2017 alone.

I know Zephyr. In ways that you clearly do not, because I'm not the one trying to nerf her with a flying mode that, magically, only exists when the area is big enough to support it.

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