Conclave should be deleted (not)

[Cephalycion]

I crawled through the conclave section of the forums and safe to say I've come out scarred and still recovering from all the PTSD that I got from people saying "I'd throw a party and buy another prime access if conclave was removed". It disgusts me to see how much some people want to take away other people's enjoyment of the game. For themselves. And they say it's for the sake of preserving the non-toxicity of the community.

I know that people on the forums are very vocal about this. There are people who want Conclave gone, thinking that it is some kind of virus that will infect us all if it ever sees any improvement. Thinking that trying to improve conclave would be pandering to the PVP community, would be blindly following in other PVE/PVP games' design and would dilute the uniqueness of Warframe that is supposed to be centered around PVE and PVE only. This is on such a level of selfish that even I myself cannot achieve.

Those people wanting Conclave gone say that making Conclave more integrated to the PVE experience would be disastrous. They don't want to be forced to play a gamemode and in their argument, say that, if there were any substantial rewards in Conclave, the people playing would only tolerate it until they obtain said reward, and leave forever. This doesn't exactly make sense because nobody suggested Conclave-exclusive rewards in the first place. All the rewards we want in Conclave are things that you would be able to get elsewhere. You won't be forced to play Conclave, at all.

They say that things would just become much better if all the PVP "nonsense" went away.

There are other people who have much more neutral views on this. They say that the developers don't want to invest time and money into something that is most likely not to get much positive feedback, seeing that the current Conclave community is small. Which leads onto less people playing Conclave due to it being an outdated gamemode. Which leads to less priority from the devs. And so on. That point actually makes sense if you think about it.

However, the idea of "Warframe will benefit from the deletion of Conclave" needs to be addressed. The majority of players do not play conclave but that doesn't mean that nobody enjoys it, and that nobody plays in on a regular basis. There exists a small amount of us that dedicate our Warframe playtime to the conclave, I myself included. In fact, I no longer do my daily sorties and play only Conclave exclusively since I no longer have the time (due to life) to farm as hardcore as I did before. And I can safely say that it is very enjoyable once you get the hang of it. Finding strangers to play conclave with you might be difficult, and take some time advertising your invites on recruiting chat, but eventually you can gather up a small group of players and start having fun. If you find a friend to regularly play with, even better.

I cannot safely say that improving conclave will make the game more popular or interest more people into playing conclave. But I can safely say that deleting Conclave will make players leave. If you're cool with it, leave it as it is.

TL;DR: Please don't delete my favorite gamemode which is Conclave.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Cephalycion

[Syasob]

Spoiler

 

[Aeon94]

DE, please ignore all of OP and delete Conclave :D

Joke aside Conclave's upkeep isn't that bad on DE's side ( unlike Raids ) , so they won't remove Conclave from game.

You are safe ( for now ) to enjoy the gamemode you like. :d

[DiabolusUrsus]

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

I crawled through the conclave section of the forums and safe to say I've come out scarred and still recovering from all the PTSD that I got from people saying "I'd throw a party and buy another prime access if conclave was removed". It disgusts me to see how much some people want to take away other people's enjoyment of the game. For themselves. And they say it's for the sake of preserving the non-toxicity of the community.

Players who want Conclave to be removed and would throw parties to celebrate aren't thinking about how other players would feel about it. They are thinking about how resources dedicated to Conclave could be reassigned to other parts of the game, and how there would not be anything gated behind PVP. Humans are just selfish like that; I don't see any real indication that they are actually intending to relish in your suffering.

The emphasis there is on "real" indication, because obviously there are trolls out there. However, trolls are not typically inclined to discriminate against Conclave players specifically; they relish the suffering of everyone equally.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

I know that people on the forums are very vocal about this. There are people who want Conclave gone, thinking that it is some kind of virus that will infect us all if it ever sees any improvement.

This probably has something to do with the fact that players repeatedly bring up ideas aimed at making Conclave "more popular," typically through the use of events/rewards/incentives/etc. I think of it rather like proselytizing, in that sense.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

Thinking that trying to improve conclave would be pandering to the PVP community, would be blindly following in other PVE/PVP games' design and would dilute the uniqueness of Warframe

Have you played Lunaro?

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

that is supposed to be centered around PVE and PVE only. This is on such a level of selfish that even I myself cannot achieve.

There is nothing intrinsically selfish about this sentiment.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

Those people wanting Conclave gone say that making Conclave more integrated to the PVE experience would be disastrous.

That's because it would be. Conclave is only tolerable because it is entirely irrelevant to PVE. The fundamental purpose of integration is co-dependence; of course PVE players aren't going to want that. If Conclave being separate from PVE is enough to make you discontent with Conclave, I think you need to sit down and think about how much you actually like Conclave.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

They don't want to be forced to play a gamemode and in their argument, say that, if there were any substantial rewards in Conclave, the people playing would only tolerate it until they obtain said reward, and leave forever.

This has already been demonstrated through Conclave events. It's not "this would happen," it's "this did happen."

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

This doesn't exactly make sense because nobody suggested Conclave-exclusive rewards in the first place. All the rewards we want in Conclave are things that you would be able to get elsewhere. You won't be forced to play Conclave, at all.

If you are talking specifically about a suggestion you made that was rejected, I'd advise you to give some context here. Otherwise I can say with absolute certainty that many players do suggest Conclave-exclusive rewards repeatedly. "But really, Conclave would be great if it just had good rewards" claims are a dime-a-dozen.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

They say that things would just become much better if all the PVP "nonsense" went away.

For the record, I wouldn't go that far. It's in the game and it doesn't eat up a ton of resources; I don't see the value in scrapping it entirely.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

There are other people who have much more neutral views on this. They say that the developers don't want to invest time and money into something that is most likely not to get much positive feedback, seeing that the current Conclave community is small. Which leads onto less people playing Conclave due to it being an outdated gamemode. Which leads to less priority from the devs. And so on. That point actually makes sense if you think about it.

I think that if Conclave was going to hold such a low, second-class priority for DE they never should have added it to begin with. But what's done is done, so they may as well follow through and give it the necessary support.

Where I draw the line, however, is when there is any sort of talk about integrating it into PVE or creating any sort of crossover.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

However, the idea of "Warframe will benefit from the deletion of Conclave" needs to be addressed. The majority of players do not play conclave but that doesn't mean that nobody enjoys it, and that nobody plays in on a regular basis. There exists a small amount of us that dedicate our Warframe playtime to the conclave, I myself included. In fact, I no longer do my daily sorties and play only Conclave exclusively since I no longer have the time (due to life) to farm as hardcore as I did before.

I'm not really inclined to disagree... but... lemme get this straight: You have less time to farm, so you play Conclave? How much time do you spend in a queue vs. actually playing?

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

And I can safely say that it is very enjoyable once you get the hang of it.

Purely subjective, and it is dangerous to assume that this will hold true for everybody. It is predicated upon the assumption that critics of Conclave simply haven't given it a fair shot.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

Finding strangers to play conclave with you might be difficult, and take some time advertising your invites on recruiting chat, but eventually you can gather up a small group of players and start having fun. If you find a friend to regularly play with, even better.

The most fun I've had in Conclave out of all the time it took me to reach Typhoon was when I could simply host a clan-only dedicated server and farm standing with a buddy or two while uninterrupted by tryhards. Then they patched that at some point.

24 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

I cannot safely say that improving conclave will make the game more popular or interest more people into playing conclave. But I can safely say that deleting Conclave will make players leave. If you're cool with it, leave it as it is.

TL;DR: Please don't delete my favorite gamemode which is Conclave.

One thing I'm not clear on: Why is deleting Conclave even on the table? Where has DE given any indication that they are considering this? Conclave isn't in any real danger; players are just running their mouths.

[Sormaran]

The feature does not interfere with anything nor it costs much to maintain. Even so concalve is a dead feature(which is even acknowledged by Rebecca in warframe documentary that came out few months ago), theres no point in deleting it.

For the same reason i dont see any rework coming anytime soon(maybe ever), because that will require resources for the rework itself and maintenance after, im sure DE do not want situation like with Raids happen all over again.

All that said, im on PvE side of the argument.... if one to come up, but since Conclave going to stay dead, there is no argument to begin with. DE never going to force PvP on their playerbase, they'd need entirely new audience that would instantly replace the old one and will be of the same size for PvP to be successful - so never gonna happen.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Sormaran

[uxx0]

I remember some PvP peeps cheering at raids going away. But yes, unlike raids Conclave doesn't have a whole lot of upkeep so they might as well leave it in. Although at one point someone compared the lines of fixes in patch notes for raids vs PvP and suffice to say that PvP had a lot more fixes. If people talk about how they want Conclave removed it's because it's an easy target and a damn meme of a game mode. I just chuckle sometimes when I see PvP players complain about the standing farmers, Zaws and Snipetron.

So yeah, as far as I'm concerned I don't care either way. Wouldn't wish even my worst enemy a "temporary" removal of their favorite game mode.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

13 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

Please don't delete my favorite gamemode

History teaches us that this plea doesn't work on DE. They might delete starchart in its entirety tomorrow, if they so choose, and I personally wouldn't even be surprised.

[Nitro747]

On 2018-11-22 at 4:30 AM, Cephalycion said:

TL;DR: Please don't delete my favorite gamemode which is Conclave.

 

 

People can have "fun" with literally anything. Even a rock.

DE removed raids on the excuse that not enough people were playing it and it was "too demanding". Even though there was even an entire Discord server dedicated to running Raids...

If DE made ANY sense, they would either have removed the Conclave instead or removed both.

TL;DR: just because you are one of the 53 people that genuinely enjoys that horrid gamemode doesn't mean it should be kept on the game. Conclave is a shame and should be removed from the game until it is decently reworked... just like how they did with raids 🙂

[Nitro747]

On 2018-11-22 at 4:30 AM, Cephalycion said:

They say that things would just become much better if all the PVP "nonsense" went away.

Literally no one ever said that btw

[----Legacy----]

40 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

People can have "fun" with literally anything. Even a rock.

Yeah, some people had fun with standing simulator. Even tough its removal sucked for the simple fact of ot being less things to do in game, you could still see players dancing on its grave when their removal was announced, which made things even worst.

40 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

DE removed raids on the excuse that not enough people were playing it and it was "too demanding".

There is a difference between content that breaks randomly on every update whenever they touch something else, undoing the work of whoever was at charge of fixing it and content that keeps running nearly on its own, barely gets bugs specific to it, and mostly could use some number tweaks in balance and can still run if said balance isn't done.

40 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Even though there was even an entire Discord server dedicated to running Raids...

There is also an entire discord dedicated to conclave and still i wouldn't use that as a point since i could make an entire server dedicated to run defection missions, be alone there forever and it would still be "an entire discors server dedicated to run defection missions".

40 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

If DE made ANY sense, they would either have removed the Conclave instead or removed both.

Your opinion here is biased simple because we as players don't know how many times DE worked on fixing trial bugs, managed to get them fixed and the fix got broken as soon as all the parts of the hotfix containimg it were put together, turning the work of the dev(s) on that task on nothing but a waste.

40 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

TL;DR: just because you are one of the 53 people that genuinely enjoys that horrid gamemode doesn't mean it should be kept on the game.

Just because you're one of the 55 people that genuinely enjoyed DE's attempt of raids which was removed, doesn't mean you're entitled to ask for something others enjoy to be removed.

40 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Conclave is a shame and should be removed from the game until it is decently reworked... just like how they did with raids 🙂

Players like you are a shame since even tough you know what it means to lose your favorite part of the game's content (just like players who enjoyed solar rail conflicts do) you still can't get to empathize with others and go around antagonizing instead just because you can't get over it and want other players to go through the same.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

No it should go..but in it's place all the PVP assets should be turned over to the Dojo and the new Obstacle Course where De can allow players to create PVP content on their own...Youtube videos will pop up, creators will get popular, clans will showcase and recruit, and new game modes will appear..and it might get popular enough to warrant another look and perhaps matchmaking for player created content rather than simple clan invites...

 

As of now..it's stagnate, surrounded by a PVE player base, and there are far more superior PVP games available for players to participate in...Anyways this is the Forums...I doubt they'll get rid of Conclave anytime soon especially not with Teshin's part in the lore and the specific PVP rewards and time spent on it..unless it really really tanks out even further.... 

[AbyssalWyrm]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

there are far more superior PVP games available for players to participate in...

That's subjective, there are plenty of pvp games available in the market but none of them offers anything similar to warframe's freedom of movement.

As one of those players who got into warframe after watching some videos of conclave in youtube and falling in love with its mobility system, conclave is a refreshing eye bleach when the plethora of run and game games gets boring, but the mandatory mind numbing pve experience offered by warframe keeps pushing players like me away from it, providing no reason for us to call our friends who we know would enjoy warframe and invest our time and money in the game.

Warframe is closing itself to a huge market, which for a free to play game is one of the dumbest decisions to be made.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

5 hours ago, AbyssalWyrm said:

That's subjective, there are plenty of pvp games available in the market but none of them offers anything similar to warframe's freedom of movement.

As one of those players who got into warframe after watching some videos of conclave in youtube and falling in love with its mobility system, conclave is a refreshing eye bleach when the plethora of run and game games gets boring, but the mandatory mind numbing pve experience offered by warframe keeps pushing players like me away from it, providing no reason for us to call our friends who we know would enjoy warframe and invest our time and money in the game.

Warframe is closing itself to a huge market, which for a free to play game is one of the dumbest decisions to be made.

I would rather De turn Conclave over to another developer like how they did with the Switch and just make a PVP only version of Warframe since it's a free to play game...players could have one or the other or both on their hard drives and the benefit would be both PVE and PVP could be free of the other while having the space available for their own respective game modes...

Side note I've been around PVP communities for years from Quake Arena, Halo 2, 3, Call Of Duty, Battlefield and so on and so on...So I lack the empathy to shed a tear on the loss of your PVP friends and their interest in Warframe after what I suspect is a wonderful sales pitch of how PVE in the game sucks...Warframe's mandatory mind numbing pve experience has been fine and carried it 5 years under one title....while we are on what sequel number out of the churned out drek between COD, Battlefield, and Halo by now?

[deothor]

On 2018-11-22 at 8:26 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

This probably has something to do with the fact that players repeatedly bring up ideas aimed at making Conclave "more popular," typically through the use of events/rewards/incentives/etc

There was 1 PVP event (with potato/Sigil/BP) I participated. DE trie to make PVP interesting or popular or whatnot.

It was a f...ing disaster of an event. Almost everyone afked and only few conclave-fans actually played. When you won it felt exhausting and weak, when you lost you just lost 15-30 minutes of your life. Add to that Host migrations, S#&$ty connections.. I'll be honest here. Conlave sucks major ass. No events nor updates nor fixes will change that. it simply does not work in WF. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, deothor said:

There was 1 PVP event (with potato/Sigil/BP) I participated. DE trie to make PVP interesting or popular or whatnot.It was a f...ing disaster of an event. Almost everyone afked and only few conclave-fans actually played. When you won it felt exhausting and weak, when you lost you just lost 15-30 minutes of your life. Add to that Host migrations, S#&$ty connections..

Yeah, I know. Which is why players are upset when people insist that those would be good ideas.

Quote

I'll be honest here. Conlave sucks major ass. No events nor updates nor fixes will change that. it simply does not work in WF. 

I disagree.

Nothing about the game is impossible to fix; it would simply require identifying and systematically eliminating the issues that turn most players off of Conclave.

That said, I don't think there would be much value in attempting that. Most players don't come to Warframe looking for PVP.

[deothor]

25 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Nothing about the game is impossible to fix; it would simply require identifying and systematically eliminating the issues that turn most players off of Conclave.

You cannot marry fast paced and speed movement Warframe has with a shooter, unless you implement some kind of soft aimbot. But even aimbot wouldn't work if weapons aren't hitscan. What about projectile based weapons? They simply can't work with speed warframes had, when most of them can outrun the rocket (exaggeration).

What about servers? It's a must for PVP. A p2p (or p2h) connection can't work if you want this to be fair for everyone (for example For Honor failed here). But wouldn't that really strain the resources DE has?

So what then? Slow every frame? Disable their double jumps? 

But what if the issue lies somewhere else? What if players simply do not want to play PVP WF shooter? And those who like it would enjoy any other PVP-based shooter on the market?

 

If DE suddenly made a WF MOBA (or WF Sims... Or WF TBS...) it'd gain similar popularity as Conclave. Not because it's good, but because people simply enjoy MOBAs (Sims/TBS) in general. Does that mean we should keep those 1-2-3% of players happy and invest in the game mode if they could have as much fun playing LOL/HOTS/The Sims/Whatever?

 

I think not.

Edited November 27, 2018 by deothor

[k05h]

Am 22.11.2018 um 07:30 schrieb Cephalycion:

Please don't delete my favorite gamemode which is Conclave.

DE has not removed anything from Warframe so far even if it proved unsuccessful. Sharkwing and Lunaro are also still part of the game 😉 

The only argument from DE's side to remove it would be cost cutting because they have a separate team for Conclave. And if that was the case then there is nothing that could be done about it.

I still have hopes that Warframe copies the gambit mode from Destiny 2. That would make a great addition to Warframe and could revive Conclave.

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by k05h

[trndr]

26 minutes ago, k05h said:

DE has not removed anything from Warframe so far

So Trials are still in the game?

I'm not saying conclave should be removed, but I would be happy if I didn't have to play with gimped equiptment against other players in a PvE game to get the cosmetics.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

22 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

No it should go..but in it's place all the PVP assets should be turned over to the Dojo and the new Obstacle Course where De can allow players to create PVP content on their own.

I actually like this idea.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, deothor said:

You cannot marry fast paced and speed movement Warframe has with a shooter, unless you implement some kind of soft aimbot. But even aimbot wouldn't work if weapons aren't hitscan. What about projectile based weapons? They simply can't work with speed warframes had, when most of them can outrun the rocket (exaggeration).

So increase projectile speed in Conclave to levels where weapons are usable.

Quote

What about servers? It's a must for PVP. A p2p (or p2h) connection can't work if you want this to be fair for everyone (for example For Honor failed here). But wouldn't that really strain the resources DE has?

Didn't DE already add the option for players to host dedicated servers? Pretty sure they did.

Quote

So what then? Slow every frame? Disable their double jumps? 

But what if the issue lies somewhere else? What if players simply do not want to play PVP WF shooter? And those who like it would enjoy any other PVP-based shooter on the market?

I don't understand why you are conflating variability with impossibility. Sure, there are lots of possible problems, but those should be addressed one at a time and on a case-by-case basis.

Simple theorycrafting won't prove or disprove that Conclave can be improved.

Quote

If DE suddenly made a WF MOBA (or WF Sims... Or WF TBS...) it'd gain similar popularity as Conclave. Not because it's good, but because people simply enjoy MOBAs (Sims/TBS) in general. Does that mean we should keep those 1-2-3% of players happy and invest in the game mode if they could have as much fun playing LOL/HOTS/The Sims/Whatever?

 

I think not.

Did I say otherwise?

I've made 2 main claims in this thread:

• Conclave shouldn't be removed, because some players like it and it has low upkeep (contrasted with Trials).
• It would not be impossible to "fix" Conclave so that most players could find it reasonably enjoyable (though perhaps uninteresting).

There are 3 generalized populations at play here: players who love Conclave and want it to grow, players who hate Conclave and will never play it, and players who don't like Conclave because it's a pointless and imbalanced mess.

Conclave will never reach those who hate it, but it could be made more appealing to players who simply ignore it because it sucks.

As I said earlier, though, I don't think there would be much value in the effort required to pull that off.

It would be possible, just probably not worth it.

[(PSN)charmhoney]

Possible conclave options:

K drive and archwing races.

Railjack battles

Frame fighter but tekken style

Enemies vs warframe (1 player becomes the boss or supervisor and controls boss fights vs 4 tenno) 

Operator hijack/protect the payload

Operator paragon

Operator stealth course/ hide and seek

[(PSN)negativ21]

Fair enough. I don't think it warrants attention, but leaving it is fine Imo.