Marakai

As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

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10 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Yes it's arguably wrong to allow this to continue due to profit motive, but that's how things appear to be. Now to those of you that think that DE allowing this sort of thing is wrong, make your respectful opinion heard on the forums, Reddit, and Twitch...and vote with your wallet. Stop buying plat and Prime Access with real money.

Don't like obnoxious, OP builds in your matches? Leave as early as possible when you see one and find another session. It's not an ideal solution, but at least it spares you several minutes of boredom watching someone else clear the level for you.

I respect your opinion, but it's precisely that, an opinion. I like to clear rooms just as much as I like them to be cleared by other people for me. And yes, you put it very well actually, players are indeed voting with their wallets - it's making DE money. Let's not forget this is a PvE game in which you are a genocide machine, so being god-like is expected and wanted by the community. It is the point of the game.

Edited by (PS4)Pauloluisx
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My opinion? My opinion... hmm.

Remove Saryn and Mesa from public matchmaking pending a rework that will result in non game breaking, non fun sucking, and non braindead gameplay.

I don't understand how anyone can have "fun" playing these two, honestly.

Nah, fix these two and ppl will find other way to don't use brain cells.

Don't bother hating me, tl;dl reading past 6 pages, won't read next replies too.

Edited by Critiamat
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34 minutes ago, Critiamat said:

My opinion? My opinion... hmm.

Remove Saryn and Mesa from public matchmaking pending a rework that will result in non game breaking, non fun sucking, and non braindead gameplay.

I don't understand how anyone can have "fun" playing these two, honestly.

Nah, fix these two and ppl will find other way to don't use brain cells.

Don't bother hating me, tl;dl reading past 6 pages, won't read next replies too.

Well, you did admit you didn't read the previous pages so I'll give you credit for being honest.

My first post on this thread said something similar to "do not blame any particular warframe for this gameplay issue, it is systematic across the game." Many warframes in the past spammed radials constantly, and DE finds ways to prevent mindless radial spam from becoming effective, from making enemies durable, ability-resistant, or able to nullify abilities. Meanwhile the developers put true line-of-sight on melee weapons and have put line-of-sight on abilities before. Nerfing any one warframe without an adequate rework just makes players move on to the next warframe who abuses radials.

The blunt reality is, if the developers don't nerf all specific radial-damage frame abilities or implement line-of-sight on abilities globally, they'll push out more ability-resistant enemies to ensure spamming radial damage is not viable. They do this because spamming radial damage is mindless and takes away from the game experience by making the game boring to the player doing the spam, and making the game barely enjoyable for anyone following in the footsteps of the player as there's barely a single living enemy to battle.

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15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Wow, sorry but this shows some serious disconnect from reality. A noob can't choose to shoot or not to shoot when that decision is made for him by another player. 

False. This is defeatist attitude on your part. You make every other player not Saryn out to be some kicked mewling dog on the ground. You are completely wrong for a few reasons. #1 No player forces another player to do something in any public game. A noob can let Saryn kill everything for them. The noob chooses to not fire the trigger, chooses not to play solo, and chooses to complain about getting a first world problem of overly competent teammates. 9 times out of 10, a Saryn takes a position relatively in the middle of the map, then has a delay between when enemies spawn, and when they start dying. Usually about the time before a Saryn can apply spores, shoot an enemy, then Miasma. Miasma also usually lasts around 7 seconds. A Miasma alone has been nerfed damage wise, and won't impede noobs from participating. The noob could move to an enemy spawning gate, and run around the edges of the map. While most Saryns will be in the middle, so they won't take damage. (Remember, Saryn is no Inaros.) This means that Saryn will let enemies come to them. Nox, ancient disruptors, and nullifiers are easy targets for these noobs to seek out. As they will be largely immune to Saryn's AoE. 
 

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

I've seen matches where MR1 excals were desperatly trying to get ahead an Ember with an Ignis just to get a shot in only to fail miserably. 


Oh the horror. We should also get rid of the ignis, ember as concept, and make it so that all enemies have 99.99% damage reduction except against low Mr players. 

Let's actually be realistic here. #1 a Mastery Rank 1 player has no idea what is going on. A Frost Prime with a kraken could shoot and kill everything before most newbs could get a chance. Low Level content and the entire solar system as a whole is the basic tutorial for the game. You'll get farther in the game by trying to compete with the strongest players, then giving up. Excalibur could easily get ahead of Ember, just using Slash Dash as a movement ability. Would kill everything low level as well. 

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Saying this one player that claims all enemies wasn't the dictator of that particular group is a statement that needs some serious backup, right now I'm not convinced. And then wanting to force noobs out of public matches is indeed you wanting them to cater to your needs, if you want to acknowledge that or not. It is YOU who expects someone else to not do something, i.e. asking for changes/nerfs, so in return you have to accept the request they have that you let them play without going out of their way to have their definition of fun. You say no to the latter, so they have every right to deny you the former. Also players have no tools at all to control a group even if they are hosting it so your second point goes nowhere aswell. Also you totally ignored how realistic it even was to expect noobs to always make their premades.

Interesting how your argument twists all logic. You know how many times I have had a player politely ask me in group chat to not use my powers as much? Either cut back my power spam, or simply slow down? Hmmm. Not once. I've had people see me join a mission as a frame they don't like (usually limbo) and instantly leave..... Even when it's an arbitration so I can defend the objective... So let me get this straight. Your response to "forcing noobs out of public matches" is to force veterans out of public matches. No, I'm not forcing noobs out of public matches, I'm forcing them to fix their own problem. If they constantly find themselves in low level exterminates, and higher level players, (Doesn't even need to be veterans. A Mastery rank 4-5 player with basic serration mods could trivialize the first few planets for a Mastery rank 1-3 player) blasting through before they have a chance to fire a bullet, they can turn the mission solo, then return to public play at their leisure. You would force every other player, cater to the needs of a few newbs who have every ability to pick how they experience the game. 

Instead, you would force the players without a problem, to fix other player's problem. A Mastery rank 8 player can do the same thing; just going in to get polymer bundles so he can build the next frame he wants, and kill everything before the low level excals even figure out what's going on. This is a slippery slope that would start out with excluding veterans, then after nothing changes would exclude more and more groups from each other. You are really punishing anyone who has spent any amount of time in warframe, and secluding them out of the player base for what reason? If you only seclude low level missions, the newbs will complain about the later planets. It never fixes the problem, and nerfs don't serve anything either. People will either switch frames, or simply leave the game after getting bored of everything being a bullet sponge. 

Your idea hurts the noobs the most, as they can't be carried through spy missions, sorties, or events anymore. Tough luck for any newb who wants to take part of archwing missions, without a proper archwing for the task. This is a cancerous idea through and through, and terrible for game balance, or anyone who didn't get a leg up on the immense grind of warframe before every last drop of fun was removed from the game, and every enemy turned into a bullet sponge, so every newb can get a shot off. 

I'm not even asking a newb to always make a premade group. I'm asking them to do it, when they take issue of having their shiny metal ass carried by somebody else. 
Take it from me, I would love nothing more then every newb to carry their weight and duly help the team. Alas, that doesn't happen often. 

 

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Oh please. THIS half-arsed defense / justification of Saryn's brokenness again...? *rolls eyes*

I'm not saying shes overpowered, underpowered, or fine. It's called context... *rolls eyes* my point was that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Edited by Betsill

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2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

You know why DE allows Saryn, Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and a couple of other outliers to utterly dominate small defense maps and make gameplay boring for everyone else unlucky enough to be teamed with elitist try-hards and their OP, kill-hog builds?

Same reason DE allows Loki, Ash, Ivara, to dominate Spy and rescue missions. Same reason Nova, Booben, dominate interception missions or make the index brain dead easy to complete. Same reason that Frost and Gara make excavations trivial. 

Each frame has their niche, where they excel when other frames can't. They elitist try hard argument isn't a good argument. This is a half baked assumption that you, and people like you have. Warframe is an extremely casual game. The try hards are more likely to be doing something that actually benefits them, then waste their time in a mission with you. The only place you are realistically likely to run into these people is in leveling missions, where they want to level up a weapon as fast as possible, so they can get on to the next forma as fast as possible. (Multiple forma-ing weapons gets boring fast.) 

Tryhards go solo into missions as equinox, to farm focus, with the stealth multiplier. Or are busy farming eidolons to get those best arcanes. Doing events, or farming prime parts/weapons. As a vet, there is only a single resource I farm for ever. And it's polymer bundles as almost every recipes seems to use it. My massive Clan dojo, ate up most of mine, and it's the only resource I ever occasionally farm. ( I might need mutagen samples if they every make something as stupidly high cost as the Hema though.) You won't find me in anything

Complaining that one frame is too good for specific scenario #1 and no other scenario, is a very quick way to kill every last ounce of fun in the game. My Nova with a 90m range can turn every interception into Sloooooow M-mooooootion... AAAAHHHHH... 

Also makes it as painless, as possible while those towers go untouched and the mission completes faster. 

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I take solace knowing that it only works in low rank missions. In mid to higher rank missions it doesn't work nearly as effectively. Once they start passing 30 ranks the whole press 4 to win starts slowing down.

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15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Well, I'm not mad at you if you play that way, but I don't. Usually I like support roles most, warframe doesn't really offer that, but I can still decide not to bring my Ignis to any low level mission to give my fellow tenno something to do. I like the weapon for syndicate missions, but I don't use it f.e. in lith fissure. Sure, I'd save a few seconds each run, but I don't like seeing low MR rank players trying to fight but ending up with 0-1% damage dealt. But as I said, noone can force you to be a teamplayer, egoism is fine. Just don't expect other players to cater to you then and not ask for nerfs on things they don't like.

There are plenty of ways to play support.  It's my second preferred kind of style in a group.  Perhaps define what support means to you.  I'm not against players asking for change.  I'm against not informed/misinformed players asking for changes purely because they dislike something.  I'm not saying vet players should go into the beginnings of the star chart and blow everything up.  That's them going out of their way.  I'm merely saying that if a new player ends up running content vet players are doing (relic runs, certain resource farming spots, etc) they really shouldn't be complaining if someone is trying to efficiently farm.

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

 

The tone of this threat has been more than passive aggresive, so excuse me if I'm not worried about microaggressions. And it does belong, since you show with your very next sentence that you argue from the same standpoint. Different players have different opinions of what this game should be about. Each are equally valuable and unlike you, I haven't stated mine as a fact. I don't care too much about being most effective when I can't have fun doing it. Still managed to do almost everything in the game. But like I said, that's just for me, but I find it a little bit funny to see ppl trying to take these power fantasies to an extreme when together in a group. Usually one person feels powerful, the rest collects loot. Giving the advice to play solo or in premades is the equivalent of forcing your playstyle onto them, nothing inherently bad, but it in turn again gives them the right to try to do the same to you.

It's an empirical statement.  The game is a grind game.  You can argue what makes warframe warframe for you.  That's not what i'm arguing.  This game is built from the ground up as a time sink.  This is why we have build times.  this is why we continually have new resources added.  This is why you have the ability to shortcut time with money.  It is a game about grinding and being efficient at it.  There is no arguing against that.  As I said.  You can tell me what the game is for you.  You can tell me you like x aspect about the game and that's why you play.  But you can't argue against the foundation of the game.  Before there was fashion frame, before their was a thriving market, before there was a cohesive story.  It was a game built on the premise of grinding.  And no that's false equivalency.  DE's solution to this conundrum has been and always will be solo/group making.  They already established that no one has any right to say what is the proper way to play in pubs.  I'm not telling you that it's my way or the high way.  Because that implies I have power on the situation.  I'm telling you what the situation is.  and what you can do about it.

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

I'm not overly bothered myself tbh. Warframe is in a state where it can't just go to being a challenging, balanced game, for that the entire damage, weapon and AI system would have to be reconstructed and I don't see that happen. What I'm adressing is the absolute lack of logic here. I always read this "don't force me..." stuff. Ofc we're infringing on each others games, it's a multiplayer game. The question is are we willing to restrain ourselfs and if we're not, how do we claim that others can't do the same?

There is no lack of logic here.  I treat others the same way I wish to be treated when I play in pubs.  Asking someone to slow down their gameplay for me so I can participate the way I wish to is asinine to me.  If we didn't have the capability of crafting our own experience or if playing this game solo was not viable then I could understand.  But that's not the reality of our situation.  If I don't like something I can leave and find a different game/play my own game.

15 hours ago, W3zeer said:

 

OP writes for a low level environment, where press 4 to win still works perfectly fine. I agree though because other frames absolutly outshine her in that regard 😄 . Also complaining about "passive agression" and then use ad hominems don't mix to well, I'm not offended though 😉 . Just food for thought: Do you think the grind would be quicker, slower or the same, if missions would take longer on an average? I'd think it would stay the same, as I would think the devs envision a certain time players are supposed to grind and adjust the numbers accordingly. I could be wrong though.

Game's not really balanced around that point.  And that's neither here nor there.  The point was the "meta" frames of today involve a lot of player interactivity.  So someone dumbing down saryn's gameplay purely to fluff their argument is a problem.  Slower.  

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17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I have to agree with @MechaKnight here: at the end of the day, "if you don't like this frame, make your own squad" is not a valid excuse, because one of the core components to playing Warframe is being able to easily join other players when running any mission, and pushing players to isolate themselves, or otherwise make their multiplayer experience far more convoluted than it needs to be, is good for neither the game nor its community. Moreover, it fails to address the core issue at hand, which is that some frames are simply not fun to play with. If a hypothetical frame had the power to kill any of their allies at the press of a button, or even permanently destroy their allies' frames and weapons from their inventory, the answer to that shouldn't be "just make your own squad if you don't like playing with this frame", it should be "this frame is unpleasant to play alongside by design and should be changed". In this case, I'd also be willing to bet that there would still be some community of people who'd defend this frame for their "fantasy", and push back because they want to be able to play the game "their way", even if "their way" of playing the game hinges upon making it less fun for others. That alone is not a sufficient defense when the fun those players have comes at the expense of many more.

Playing with other players is not really a core aspect to the game.  The only thing that out right encourages it is the fact that there are more resources going around when you do.  Frames do not play well with other frames and synergies are few and far between.  It's not a coop game.  People do not work together in the average mission.  It's merely 4 players playing in the same space.  It is not convoluted at all in order to make your own group.  I've made more than a handful of them JUST looking for others with the same relic to crack open.  Takes all of maybe 5 minutes to accomplish.  Your problem is that you assume that something is wrong when something isn't fun.  It's also not an excuse.  it's literally how it is.  It's been DE's point whenever it's been brought up.  They give us these tools for a reason.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

While the above is an extreme example, the same arguments can be applied to frames that are currently notorious for the issues they cause, namely Saryn, Limbo, Equinox/Ember at times, etc. The problem with these frames isn't that players aren't going out of their way to avoid playing with them, but that these frames give players incentive to do so in the first place. In all of these cases, these frames typically generate frustration because they remove interaction from missions: Saryn, Equinox and Ember (also Volt) are all capable of single-handedly killing all enemies in a large radius and through walls, given the right enemy level, and so quicker than anyone else can go around and fight them. Limbo is a special case in that his kit is built to remove physical interaction between different elements of the game, which just so happens to include allies. In all of these cases, these frames are not great to play with, because while it's okay for some players to kill more enemies than others, it's generally not considered okay for a single player to be able to kill all the enemies, and so without the consent of their allies.

Saryn needs allies to help her keep her spores going.  She can't be everywhere.  If she doesn't keep them up evenly then they smother out and stop spreading.  her spore ability is built like this on purpose so her team can help her.  Limbo plays well with others.  He can act as a choke point, a second layer of defense for the objective, he can isolate pockets of enemies or a problem target.  Limbo is only bad for his team in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use him.  Equinox is also very much a team player.  She has a panic heal for her team.  She can boost team defenses.  and she can mass sleep things for her allies to get extra damage multipliers on.  She's just seen as a "nuker" because people misrepresent her and only use her nuke ability.  That's not the frame's problem.  Ember can also be quite the support player with good CC and buffs on allies.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

My personal take on Saryn in particular I'd say is quite simple: her current kit is mostly fine, but her Spores just need to be unable to deal lethal damage. If Saryn could bring all enemies down to 1 health from across the map, she may in fact become amazingly fun to play with, because she'd become one of the best kill enablers in the game. In most cases, there wouldn't be much of a difference in clear speeds, because those enemies would be so weakened that they'd die just as quickly, but the difference in gameplay would be massive for Saryn and her allies, because everyone would have a fair chance of killing those weakened enemies, and Saryn herself could have an added layer of gameplay from being able to hold her plague for longer in certain locations. I don't doubt that there'd be players who'd push back against this, but overall I'd still say it could be a win-win for everyone involved.

Saryn doesn't need to change.  If her spores are the primary source of things dying then her spores are not spreading.  Which means eventually she has to start her cycle again.  If her spores ARE constantly everywhere then that means her team is helping them do so by popping them to spread them or killing the enemies to spread them (but in a smaller radius.)  There are other frames out there that already enable allies to kill.  Saryn does this a bit her self with both viral procs and corrosive procs.  She just happens to be able to kill things as well.

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As terrible saryn player-I, unfortunately, cant make entire map die. I couldnt care less about dps either. So even if I get matched with 3 other saryns that do better job than me-Im ok.

If you want unnecessary challenge-go play solo or with friends who agreed upon frame choice. And stop asking to nerf things that dont need to be nerfed just because you dont like them. 

On 2018-11-25 at 11:13 AM, Marakai said:

Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

So... which one of you is saryn then?

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On 2018-11-25 at 5:24 PM, Voltage said:

If you dislike how others play the game, you can form a squad with specific players or play alone. Saryn and Equinox are not the problem, you just dislike efficient players being matched with you as they will rush the mission whether it is Capture, Exterminate, Defense, etc. You simply can't impose your way of playing on other people.

This is an endless loop of discussion as there are two sides that are not in the wrong, and Digital Extremes cannot do much to combat this. We have seen changes to Mag, Saryn, Ash, Ember, Mesa, Excalibur, Frost, Limbo, and more. Nothing will stop an efficient player from speed-running, nuking, or other gameplay styles that quickly finish missions.

Any changes they've made to those Warframes have either made them stronger or pushed them into utter obscurity. In Saryn's case, they've made her stronger with every attempt to "fix" her. [DE] puts the limit on what efficient players can work with, but they make no effort to. You're bound within the confines of the game, and right now, anyone near Warframe balance has no idea what they're actually doing.

The more this community parades on about the idea of not balancing anything because muh PvE and muh playstyle, the sooner we're going to end up with a Clicker Heroes: 3D version.

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Each frame has their niche, where they excel when other frames can't. They elitist try hard argument isn't a good argument. This is a half baked assumption that you, and people like you have. Warframe is an extremely casual game. The try hards are more likely to be doing something that actually benefits them, then waste their time in a mission with you. The only place you are realistically likely to run into these people is in leveling missions, where they want to level up a weapon as fast as possible, so they can get on to the next forma as fast as possible. (Multiple forma-ing weapons gets boring fast.) 

It's not a niche if they dominate 90% of the game's mission types.

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10 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Playing with other players is not really a core aspect to the game.  The only thing that out right encourages it is the fact that there are more resources going around when you do.  Frames do not play well with other frames and synergies are few and far between.  It's not a coop game.  People do not work together in the average mission.  It's merely 4 players playing in the same space.  It is not convoluted at all in order to make your own group.  I've made more than a handful of them JUST looking for others with the same relic to crack open.  Takes all of maybe 5 minutes to accomplish. 

Um, no, Warframe is a massively multiplayer game, and multiplayer is a core part of its design. You cannot seriously claim that it isn't when many different portions of content, e.g. Relic runs, Tridolons, ESO -- where Saryn is queen, by the way -- are expressly designed to be played in teams, where significant emphasis is placed upon the community and community interaction, and where some mission types don't even work properly when playing solo (e.g. Excavation). Whether it's "4 players playing in the same space" or not is irrelevant, the end result is still that you have 4 players playing alongside each other towards a common objective. As such, the game needs to prevent players from actively ruining each others' fun. I can agree with you that the game should be soloable from start to finish, or should at least be fully functional when playing solo, but even then, that is not an excuse for poor multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game, and does not justify actively discouraging players from playing multiplayer when they want to.

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Your problem is that you assume that something is wrong when something isn't fun.  It's also not an excuse.  it's literally how it is.  It's been DE's point whenever it's been brought up.  They give us these tools for a reason.

I'm sorry, what? So if I advocate for this frame you like to be made healthier, it shouldn't happen because you'd consider the frame less fun by default, but if players don't enjoy their play because your frame is actively sucking the fun out of their session, that's somehow fine? This is a rather interesting double standard, not to mention one that doesn't quite seem to understand what the purpose of a video game like Warframe is. Warframe is meant to be a fun game, and if it isn't offering that fun, why should anyone play it? More generally, why should anyone engage with a piece of entertainment that fails to deliver any entertainment or artistic value? If a game meant to offer fun isn't offering fun, something is wrong, by definition, and if you really think players making their own fun is a valid excuse to ignore real gameplay issues, you should perhaps take a look at Fallout 76. 

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Saryn needs allies to help her keep her spores going.  She can't be everywhere.  If she doesn't keep them up evenly then they smother out and stop spreading.  her spore ability is built like this on purpose so her team can help her.

Okay, so a few things here:

  • First of all... no. Saryn does not have trouble spreading or maintaining her spores unless she plays especially poorly, and even if she cannot cover the literal entire map, she doesn't need to. Even if her spores aren't spreading, they're killing enemies at a distance, and even if her entire plague dies, she can instantly start a new one and resume killing enemies better than most other frames in the game.
  • I'm getting the impression that there's a running theme here, where there's this implicit assumption that it's okay for other players to be expected to work and lessen their own enjoyment for the sake of a Saryn player, but the reverse is somehow unacceptable. Why can't she help her team instead? Not only would it make her significantly more fun to play with, it could likely be better for the Saryn player as well, who'd get along much better with their allies. I do not understand how you can legitimately call Saryn a team-reliant frame, while simultaneously claiming that multiplayer isn't an important aspect of Warframe: there is a fundamental contradiction between these two opinions, and ultimately what you're advocating for is to encourage players to not play with Saryn, which according to you is detrimental to Saryn, in addition to the players who have to constantly inconvenience themselves for her sake.
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 Limbo plays well with others.  He can act as a choke point, a second layer of defense for the objective, he can isolate pockets of enemies or a problem target.  Limbo is only bad for his team in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use him.

Sure, Limbo can play well with others, and in most situations he does, but the very fact that he can actively hamper his team's enjoyment if he plays poorly (or trolls) is a problem already. If an Excalibur messes up, he's not going to directly harm his allies. If an Oberon plays poorly, perhaps some players might die when expecting to be healed or resurrected, but in the end he's not going to be interfering directly with their play. By contrast, even a single misplaced Banish can be enough for another player to suddenly become unable to play the game normally, and be forced to work around Limbo just so that they can resume their play (and this is assuming the player gets Banished, not the enemy, who may become impossible for that player to kill). Limbo gets a lot of flak for a reason, and that reason is that he interferes with how others play the game.

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 Equinox is also very much a team player.  She has a panic heal for her team.

So first off, the ability's not a "panic heal", it's a heal that takes time to charge up in one of her forms. Second, it is not an ability that is typically used, because most Equinoxes instead use Maim, which directly conflicts with Mend, and if they wanted a healing ability, they would've likely picked a Trinity, whose Blessing is significantly better in every respect.

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 She can boost team defenses.  and she can mass sleep things for her allies to get extra damage multipliers on.  She's just seen as a "nuker" because people misrepresent her and only use her nuke ability.  That's not the frame's problem.

Except it is. By your own admission, players typically use her Day form only, and while that in itself is fine, the problem with her Day form is that it's got an ability that kills enemies through walls, and can thereby rob other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. It is that simple.

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Ember can also be quite the support player with good CC and buffs on allies.

She can be, but that's also irrelevant to her problems, because she's known for literally blazing through low-level missions and killing everyone in a radius without even having to target them, thereby robbing other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. Making excuses for all of these frames and talking about how they can do good things for their team has strictly no relevance to the real problems they have, which countless players have pointed out over the years, and which need to be addressed for the simple reason that they exist. Moreover, making excuses for literally every single frame that got called out here, beyond just Saryn, comes across as fairly strange, and more of a blanket defense of the status quo than a real attempt at having a meaningful discussion on the state of the game's current design (and it's not perfect, so it does need to change whether you personally like it or not).

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Saryn doesn't need to change.  If her spores are the primary source of things dying then her spores are not spreading.  Which means eventually she has to start her cycle again.

... and thereby continue killing enemies across the map through walls, which is made even easier by Miasma. You are not describing any downtime to Saryn's problematic mechanics here.

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 If her spores ARE constantly everywhere then that means her team is helping them do so by popping them to spread them or killing the enemies to spread them (but in a smaller radius.)  There are other frames out there that already enable allies to kill.  Saryn does this a bit her self with both viral procs and corrosive procs.  She just happens to be able to kill things as well.

Except by your own admission, Saryn can single-handedly kill enemies, so she isn't so much of a kill enabler as she is a kill stealer, in the sense that she is capable of killing enemies before anyone else can reach them, thereby causing her allies to travel through a virtually empty map and fail to engage at all with major core gameplay elements. This is a problem players have pointed out, and so it is a problem that needs to be resolved. If you think being a kill enabler is part of Saryn's theme, then it seems we're in agreement, and in which case I don't really see why it you'd disagree to preventing her Spores from dealing lethal damage.

Edited by Teridax68
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... yeah, rework saryn. So she will be the next unplayable frame.. ember is already scum, nezha cant be played any more without "hitting this this this button and uh i have to swing the ring soorry where i have to go", so kill one of the last good frames for non newbies. 

This whole tread is useless. The problem isnt the frame. The problems are player who play solo nuke on low level. But as already wrote before, solution is simple: create your own group. Or player just should be nice to lower lvl players. 

To bash frame just because they are able to mass destructe is just stupid. How do you want survive high levels if you do not have such frames around you. I'll give you the answer: you wont. So go on, kill the last existing frames, for this purpose and noone will be able to play elite missions any more... 

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On 2018-11-26 at 1:22 AM, WhiteMarker said:

You don't like the nuke-playstyle. Nukes may don't like your "boring" playstyle. Accept the fact that everyone has their own way of playing. Don't try to force your way on to others.

That's not what OP was saying. Saryn being a mind-numbingly strong nuke isn't about gameplay choices or matchmaking, it's about messing with the experience that the game is "supposed" to give to players. There's no "right" answer one way or the other -- some players like the feeling of easy power, some prefer the feeling of power got via effort -- but what OP is saying is that one particular player option is so strong that it basically removes the second style of gameplay for players unless they take that extra time to make a squad for the mission. It's not about matchmaking preferences. It's the idea that if a player wants Warframe to provide gameplay that rewards effort, or wants the game to offer any kind of co-operation incentive, one-button wins like nuke Saryn shouldn't exist in the game. It's a design issue.

Edited by SenorClipClop

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There are many Warframes that have AOE attacks, and if you build them just right they could as powerful or more powerful then Miasma. I say no to nerfing, because there is no point to do so. The game isn't supposed to equal on everything. There is always going to be a more powerful frame, weapon, sentinel, or whatever. 

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I do like Saryn, but I have used other frames, and I see them as very powerful as well, maybe even more powerful. Like I said it just depends how you build it. We shouldn't be punishing Saryn mains because they found out how to place a good set of mods.

Edited by GrayFrequency
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5 minutes ago, GrayFrequency said:

There are many Warframes that have AOE attacks, and if you build them just right they could as powerful or more powerful then Miasma.

That's (arguably) accurate, but the difference is that I'm not sure there's a frame who can match Nuke Saryn in both her high power and low effort. There's no problem with frames dealing insane damage over wide areas, but the fact that Saryn can do so just by standing there and pressing 2 buttons over and over means that the game is overly rewarding of minimal engagement. The presence of such a low-effort yet high-power setup both cheapens the high-action gameplay DE has developed for Warframe and, in this case, regularly removes that gameplay for all 4 people in a Saryn's squad.

 

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

False. This is defeatist attitude on your part. You make every other player not Saryn out to be some kicked mewling dog on the ground

This is either a blatant lie, or you lack basic reading comprehension

Am 30.11.2018 um 13:02 schrieb W3zeer:

OP writes for a low level environment, where press 4 to win still works perfectly fine. I agree though because other frames absolutly outshine her in that regard 😄

At no point have I made that argument you claim I did, it's the same thing I've criticized you for earlier. You make up strawmen and fire walls of text against them.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Oh the horror. We should also get rid of the ignis, ember as concept,

Same here, I have clearly stated that I am not using that excessivly in gorups. I outright said it is fine if you want to do it. Telling I implied otherwise is dishonest on your part.

And you still don't get the entire "choice" thing, which is sad at this point. Tell me how you choose to interact with something that is not there anymore? The choice has been made before you're in a position to choose. This is basic logic and this will be the last time I'm going to adress this.

The rest is just more blah blah that entirely misses the point. The funny thing is you actually don't see that acknowleding my position would actually help yourself. I have no problem with Saryn or how you play personally. I have long found my niche I'm happy in. But apparently you're pissing off enough ppl to make this discussion very prevalent in the forums. What happend in the past when that occured? DE at one point stepped in and took your toys away. And I always read the same arguments of "don't tell me what to do!". How often has this defense helped you yet? Let me tell you the answer: Never. You want to know one definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

The thing I was going at with low MR players is this: when I'm in a group with others, I'm always ready to carry the group on my own, but I always try to let others participate when I have the feeling they want to. Now you don't have to follow that philosophy, I don't know how often I have to tell you, I'm not here to dictate anything, although you're accusing me otherwise. If you could at least understand why I'm doing that you might have a better chance at understanding why your so called arguments will never make your opponents stop attacking your playstyle. Just see that you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of and maybe you can go forward, or you'll be doing the same song and dance for the next years, every time your newest nuking strategy gets attacked. What you don't seem to get is that you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm not saying nerf Saryn and all the AoE things with her right now. What I'm pointing out is dishonesty. I just see "me me me" and at the same time you expect others to be altruistic. In the end it will be as always, if the players can't behave themselfs, the Devs will bring out the nerf bat, and you will only have yourself to blame.

 

vor 11 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

- snip

I'm don't want this post to become too long, so I'm trying to give you a short answer. I agree with you on many points, Warframe is a looter at its base, i never denied that. The only thing I said in that direction is that I don't think the grid would become worse if missions would take longer, because the numbers would be adjusted according to a time gate. The problem I have with support is that it's irrelevant for 90+% of the game, it makes no difference if you can heal or buff, when every single player can kill everything on the map while passing by, but that's a whole different story and doesn't really belong here. I can enjoy it though in very high level environments it's just that this only affects very select few missions.

What I've tried to say in admittedly less polite words (because I hate it when someone is trying to misrepresent what I said) to your collegue in the above section is that I'm indeed interested of finding a middle ground, but that can't even start, when one side isn't even acknowledging the fact that their playstyle takes away from others and that the wishes of those others are just as important as their own. In a perfect world, no nerfs would be neccessary, but we don't have that, we have collections of very egoistical players that will put their fun before others any day. And I don't blame them for that, I have never attacked a Simulor Mirage or an old bladestorm Ash or anything like that. One of my favourite Clanmates was an Ultra-Tonkor user and I still played with him daily, although I had much less to kill ;). But I also can understand the mass of players with less sophisticated gear and knowledge of the movement system that get frustraded when they can't even see anything to shoot. Let me make this clear one last time: I'm not trying to take something from you, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. Even if one see's their teammates as nothing more than additional drops and more relic choices than that's fine aswell. Just know that they do have a voice and don't complain when they make themselfs heared. I have no problems when you defend your way of having fun, it's subjective. But don't use double standards. Even if something is really fun to you, maybe at one point you could take the time and look at how others around you might be affected.

In the end, the game is about making its company money. If only 1 person out of 4 can have fun that's potentially a ratio of 75% disappointed player. Ofc the people in charge will step in. Solo and premades are not a solution, claiming they are and thus locking new players out of the community from the start, in a game that's advertized as a cooperative multiplayer shooter is ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, W3zeer said:

This is either a blatant lie, or you lack basic reading comprehension

At no point have I made that argument you claim I did, it's the same thing I've criticized you for earlier. You make up strawmen and fire walls of text against them.

Same here, I have clearly stated that I am not using that excessivly in gorups. I outright said it is fine if you want to do it. Telling I implied otherwise is dishonest on your part.

And you still don't get the entire "choice" thing, which is sad at this point. Tell me how you choose to interact with something that is not there anymore? The choice has been made before you're in a position to choose. This is basic logic and this will be the last time I'm going to adress this.

The rest is just more blah blah that entirely misses the point. The funny thing is you actually don't see that acknowleding my position would actually help yourself. I have no problem with Saryn or how you play personally. I have long found my niche I'm happy in. But apparently you're pissing off enough ppl to make this discussion very prevalent in the forums. What happend in the past when that occured? DE at one point stepped in and took your toys away. And I always read the same arguments of "don't tell me what to do!". How often has this defense helped you yet? Let me tell you the answer: Never. You want to know one definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

The thing I was going at with low MR players is this: when I'm in a group with others, I'm always ready to carry the group on my own, but I always try to let others participate when I have the feeling they want to. Now you don't have to follow that philosophy, I don't know how often I have to tell you, I'm not here to dictate anything, although you're accusing me otherwise. If you could at least understand why I'm doing that you might have a better chance at understanding why your so called arguments will never make your opponents stop attacking your playstyle. Just see that you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of and maybe you can go forward, or you'll be doing the same song and dance for the next years, every time your newest nuking strategy gets attacked. What you don't seem to get is that you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm not saying nerf Saryn and all the AoE things with her right now. What I'm pointing out is dishonesty. I just see "me me me" and at the same time you expect others to be altruistic. In the end it will be as always, if the players can't behave themselfs, the Devs will bring out the nerf bat, and you will only have yourself to blame.

 

I'm don't want this post to become too long, so I'm trying to give you a short answer. I agree with you on many points, Warframe is a looter at its base, i never denied that. The only thing I said in that direction is that I don't think the grid would become worse if missions would take longer, because the numbers would be adjusted according to a time gate. The problem I have with support is that it's irrelevant for 90+% of the game, it makes no difference if you can heal or buff, when every single player can kill everything on the map while passing by, but that's a whole different story and doesn't really belong here. I can enjoy it though in very high level environments it's just that this only affects very select few missions.

What I've tried to say in admittedly less polite words (because I hate it when someone is trying to misrepresent what I said) to your collegue in the above section is that I'm indeed interested of finding a middle ground, but that can't even start, when one side isn't even acknowledging the fact that their playstyle takes away from others and that the wishes of those others are just as important as their own. In a perfect world, no nerfs would be neccessary, but we don't have that, we have collections of very egoistical players that will put their fun before others any day. And I don't blame them for that, I have never attacked a Simulor Mirage or an old bladestorm Ash or anything like that. One of my favourite Clanmates was an Ultra-Tonkor user and I still played with him daily, although I had much less to kill ;). But I also can understand the mass of players with less sophisticated gear and knowledge of the movement system that get frustraded when they can't even see anything to shoot. Let me make this clear one last time: I'm not trying to take something from you, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. Even if one see's their teammates as nothing more than additional drops and more relic choices than that's fine aswell. Just know that they do have a voice and don't complain when they make themselfs heared. I have no problems when you defend your way of having fun, it's subjective. But don't use double standards. Even if something is really fun to you, maybe at one point you could take the time and look at how others around you might be affected.

In the end, the game is about making its company money. If only 1 person out of 4 can have fun that's potentially a ratio of 75% disappointed player. Ofc the people in charge will step in. Solo and premades are not a solution, claiming they are and thus locking new players out of the community from the start, in a game that's advertized as a cooperative multiplayer shooter is ridiculous.

I agree with your point about support frames. As a fan of playing more of these types of roles, im finding myself playing solo now these days because dps frames can self sustain themselves. The only time i feel healing frames are needed are for tri hunts in the plains. And that is a huge issue. I also feel that some of the support frame designs can be counter productive with dps frame abilities like harrow and saryn. In order for harrow to be useful in a squad, he needs to have kills in order to obtain energy. But when you got a frame like saryn for example that has the ability to wipe half of the map (and a power that goes though walls none or less) it can make playing as harrow irrelevant and pointless. Im not asking for nerfs, but i do hope saryn mains can see this issue of incoherent frame design. 

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Then tell me, how helpful is Saryn against Eidolons? How does her killing potential aid in spy and rescue missions? How does she help destroy hive missions?

These types you mention (Rescue, Spy, Eidolons) are the niche missions. Missions where you need to work out a particular setup that isn't as effective as others if taken out of those contexts and into the majority of mission types. Saryn isn't that effective in those niche mission types, but she's stupidly braindead powerful in everything else. Saryn is not niche, because her strength (killing many enemies at once) is the most effective strength to have in most of Warframe's game modes.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Strip the AoE off Saryn's abilities. Make Spores only affect a cone in front of her and not spread to anything else. Make Miasma only pop spores for damage. How good a warframe is Saryn then? Terrible. Damage is her niche, or in other words her strong suit. It is all she has been based around, and without completely throwing away her identity, and everything that ever made her Saryn, there is no way to change her.

It's okay for Saryn to deal insane damage. It's okay for her to have huge AoE. There's nothing wrong with that. What's frustrating about Saryn is that she gets to deal her insane damage over large areas with almost zero build-up and almost zero effort. The fact that she gets to be so strong while at the same time making that damage so easy to achieve (stand there and press two buttons) means that leaving her design as-is turns the action combat of Warframe into idle-game levels of engagement very quickly. Saryn can easily be changed without touching her insane damage or giant AoE: simply make that harder to do. Require some kind of skill or effort of the player in order for her to wipe the map, so she can't do it every 5 seconds unless the player is really good at playing the frame. Right now being "good" at Saryn means having Overextended and some Strength mods on, and pressing two buttons. Good design in an action game is when skill and engagement are rewarded with greater effectiveness. With current Saryn, the opposite is true.

22 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

she will always be strong damage, but any other tweaks is just casting her in the garbage, for another frame to take her spot. 

This makes it sound as though you only like Saryn because she wipes the map with zero effort. If that's the case, my previous paragraph might be lost on you.

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1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

It's okay for Saryn to deal insane damage. It's okay for her to have huge AoE. There's nothing wrong with that. What's frustrating about Saryn is that she gets to deal her insane damage over large areas with almost zero build-up and almost zero effort.

There is nothing wrong with that, as a base level 30 Saryn can't do that. It doesn't take effort to use a level 30 Saryn with multiple forma on her to nuke everything. It does take effort to build Saryn up to that level. This is why I am fine with it. 

De has already nerfed Saryn's Miasma in half. 
Unless you want to nerf Miasma again, and make it do 8x damage on spored enemies...

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

There is nothing wrong with that, as a base level 30 Saryn can't do that. It doesn't take effort to use a level 30 Saryn with multiple forma on her to nuke everything. It does take effort to build Saryn up to that level. This is why I am fine with it. 

This is where we disagree then, as I'm not fine with how it's expressed in the current game. Rewarding players' efforts to Forma their stuff for added power is good, but if a frame is so high-power and low-effort that it allows a player to be Candy Crush levels of involved in the game, while at the same time removing all gameplay for an entire squad*, there's a design problem. And as I said before, I think it's okay for Saryn to nuke, but I dislike that her most effective setup is her most boring one from a gameplay perspective, and that she removes gameplay from most missions by destroying every enemy in their spawn closets within a few seconds of them appearing.

*Let's get specific here and talk about this at say T3 levels and beyond. Any frame with passive area damage of any amount is going to wipe missions below Level 20, so there's not much point arguing about them. T3+ missions are a level around which a lot of the game is played (Bounties, Fissures, standard SO, most Alerts, etc.) and the everything-is-instantly-dead issue is prevalent yet fixable here.

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41 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

*Let's get specific here and talk about this at say T3 levels and beyond. Any frame with passive area damage of any amount is going to wipe missions below Level 20, so there's not much point arguing about them. T3+ missions are a level around which a lot of the game is played (Bounties, Fissures, standard SO, most Alerts, etc.) and the everything-is-instantly-dead issue is prevalent yet fixable here.

The problem is that any number of weapons, and combos can do this. No real solution that doesn't detract from the game as a whole. Excalibur's level 3 base radiant javelin can one shot a corpus crewman at level 20. Then basically any other frame with an AoE as well...

I'm all for optional fixes for this. Like the option of going solo, or the option of playing with players near your level added as a match making that you host. 

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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On 2018-11-30 at 4:43 PM, W3zeer said:

There is no false equivalency, this is what you said, do what I say or get out of my group. Also, do you seriously expect a brand new player who's in the process of clearing the earth nodes to put together premade groups?  And furthermore, you force them to not shoot at anything because everything is dead before they see it, this is not letting them play at their pace because they wont do anything when you're leaving nothing. Again you're forcing a specific playstyle on them. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try then to argue they can't do the same to you by getting a higher authority (the Devs) involved.

 

As I've said, I have absolutely no problems with them being in my group. At all. So, no, this is not a "do what I say or get out of my group" situation, this is a "here's a workable alternative because you might not enjoy being in a group with me." situation. They are not the same. I'm not asking that they "do" anything specific.

Personally I did most of my early missions solo or with a couple of friends to avoid this exact issue. And, as a veteran player, I can't remember the last time I've randomly done a star chart mission on public or even seen someone below MR12. I don't think there's much overlap between the content that new and old players do. 

 

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18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Um, no, Warframe is a massively multiplayer game, and multiplayer is a core part of its design. You cannot seriously claim that it isn't when many different portions of content, e.g. Relic runs, Tridolons, ESO -- where Saryn is queen, by the way -- are expressly designed to be played in teams, where significant emphasis is placed upon the community and community interaction, and where some mission types don't even work properly when playing solo (e.g. Excavation). Whether it's "4 players playing in the same space" or not is irrelevant, the end result is still that you have 4 players playing alongside each other towards a common objective. As such, the game needs to prevent players from actively ruining each others' fun. I can agree with you that the game should be soloable from start to finish, or should at least be fully functional when playing solo, but even then, that is not an excuse for poor multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game, and does not justify actively discouraging players from playing multiplayer when they want to.

Just because activities exist that are built around playing with people does not mean the game actively supports such a true cooperative experience.  And it's not irrelevant.  I made that distinction for a very specific reason.  To outline the nature of the game.  You and others are arguing that the game is coop.  In my mind a cooperative experience holds a much bigger emphasis on team work and synergy.  You actively get pushed to and rewarded for working with your allies.  This is not the case for Warframe.  Every piece of content that currently exists is soloable.  A player is even capable of doing this when having 3 other players in their game doing little to nothing.  This is an important part of my discussion and you can't simply brush it off.  Also, i'm not discouraging people from playing multiplayer.  Making your own group is still multiplayer.  I'm specifically stating if they want a very specific experience they're supposed to use the tools for doing so.  To make such broad strokes with responses at me is disingenuous.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, what? So if I advocate for this frame you like to be made healthier, it shouldn't happen because you'd consider the frame less fun by default, but if players don't enjoy their play because your frame is actively sucking the fun out of their session, that's somehow fine? This is a rather interesting double standard, not to mention one that doesn't quite seem to understand what the purpose of a video game like Warframe is. Warframe is meant to be a fun game, and if it isn't offering that fun, why should anyone play it? More generally, why should anyone engage with a piece of entertainment that fails to deliver any entertainment or artistic value? If a game meant to offer fun isn't offering fun, something is wrong, by definition, and if you really think players making their own fun is a valid excuse to ignore real gameplay issues, you should perhaps take a look at Fallout 76. 

Healthier to YOU.  Don't try to pass off your perspective as the correct one.  I'm not even saying my perspective is the proper one.  As i've already said.  I'm simply saying how things are based on DE's past actions.  There is no double standard here.  You're making me to be the villian and misrepresenting my side of the argument to make yours sound better.  I will make this point clearer to you with an analogy from a seperate game.  CC in overwatch.  CC is not fun to be hit with.  It however exists to keep a players offensive powers in check.  By your logic because nukers are not fun to be playing with you say nukers are a problem.  Without frames being able to cc/kill efficiently in a horde based game things become very difficult to accomplish.  You could argue that by the power of "team work" they could surmount this.  However I would counter your point by bringing up what i've already brought up.  This game is not designed at it's foundation to support that kind of gameplay.  If you want to see that as a problem that is your right to do so.  That doesn't make it factually a problem though.  Which loops back to the beginning of this.  Yes some frames are unfun for you to play with.  But that doesn't factually mean said frames are problems.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so a few things here:

  • First of all... no. Saryn does not have trouble spreading or maintaining her spores unless she plays especially poorly, and even if she cannot cover the literal entire map, she doesn't need to. Even if her spores aren't spreading, they're killing enemies at a distance, and even if her entire plague dies, she can instantly start a new one and resume killing enemies better than most other frames in the game.
  • I'm getting the impression that there's a running theme here, where there's this implicit assumption that it's okay for other players to be expected to work and lessen their own enjoyment for the sake of a Saryn player, but the reverse is somehow unacceptable. Why can't she help her team instead? Not only would it make her significantly more fun to play with, it could likely be better for the Saryn player as well, who'd get along much better with their allies. I do not understand how you can legitimately call Saryn a team-reliant frame, while simultaneously claiming that multiplayer isn't an important aspect of Warframe: there is a fundamental contradiction between these two opinions, and ultimately what you're advocating for is to encourage players to not play with Saryn, which according to you is detrimental to Saryn, in addition to the players who have to constantly inconvenience themselves for her sake.

Sure, Limbo can play well with others, and in most situations he does, but the very fact that he can actively hamper his team's enjoyment if he plays poorly (or trolls) is a problem already. If an Excalibur messes up, he's not going to directly harm his allies. If an Oberon plays poorly, perhaps some players might die when expecting to be healed or resurrected, but in the end he's not going to be interfering directly with their play. By contrast, even a single misplaced Banish can be enough for another player to suddenly become unable to play the game normally, and be forced to work around Limbo just so that they can resume their play (and this is assuming the player gets Banished, not the enemy, who may become impossible for that player to kill). Limbo gets a lot of flak for a reason, and that reason is that he interferes with how others play the game.

That's not how she works.  Her spores will spread far on their own based on how her kit works.  If her spores are killing off pockets of enemies away from her they're not spreading.  They specifically allow spores to be spread on death without popping so long as the spores were not the thing that killed them.  Which is where allies come in.  Her allies going around and killing infected enemies/popping spores keeps her infection going through out the map.  The only place this doesn't entirely hold true is ESO because the enemy density there is absurd.  Any other game mode and she struggles to maintain spores through out the map.  And semantics on both points.  If her spores are not everywhere she's not killing everything.  Meaning her allies are getting to do something.  So why complain then?  And "she can just start over"  is not a viable argument when you're playing higher content.  She's actively helping her team already by debuffing them with viral and corrosive.  But it's convienent to ignore that because it goes against your argument.  Once again I specified coop.  You're just hearing what you want to hear.

 

Nah see now you're just downplaying in order to make limbo look bad.  Limbo gets flak because he isn't played well by players.  Not because he's a problem frame.  If an excal is in the group he's either primary dps or secondary cc.  If he's not killing as much as he should he's effectively useless.  And someone could have chosen a different frame to be more helpful.  If he's secondary cc then messing up can kill people.  It's convienent for you to argue this because in star chart content anything is a push over thus making limbo's potential bad look worse than it is.  If you're doing content where you'd actually want other players anyone not doing their job well is a problem.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So first off, the ability's not a "panic heal", it's a heal that takes time to charge up in one of her forms. Second, it is not an ability that is typically used, because most Equinoxes instead use Maim, which directly conflicts with Mend, and if they wanted a healing ability, they would've likely picked a Trinity, whose Blessing is significantly better in every respect.

Except it is. By your own admission, players typically use her Day form only, and while that in itself is fine, the problem with her Day form is that it's got an ability that kills enemies through walls, and can thereby rob other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. It is that simple.

She can be, but that's also irrelevant to her problems, because she's known for literally blazing through low-level missions and killing everyone in a radius without even having to target them, thereby robbing other players of interaction with the mission they're playing. Making excuses for all of these frames and talking about how they can do good things for their team has strictly no relevance to the real problems they have, which countless players have pointed out over the years, and which need to be addressed for the simple reason that they exist. Moreover, making excuses for literally every single frame that got called out here, beyond just Saryn, comes across as fairly strange, and more of a blanket defense of the status quo than a real attempt at having a meaningful discussion on the state of the game's current design (and it's not perfect, so it does need to change whether you personally like it or not).

This is strawmanning.  You listed frames that were by your own admission poor team players (aka not fun to play with.)  My point was that each frame you listed can be extremely great with other players.  The issue lies within how people choose to play them.  Not the frames themselves.  This is easily seen in your example to tear down my point on equinox.  She's a very team centric frame regardless of how players choose to play her.  Modding allows us to play frames in a variety of ways, this is what allows us to focus on things.  So sure.  you CAN focus on nuking with equinox.  This doesn't mean she's only a nuker.  and that she's of poor design because she can nuke.  I'm not making excuses here bud.  You are.  You're trying to push your agenda of a problem that doesn't exist.  Being dismissive of things that are straight up counters to your arguments doesn't help your points.  At best you can say that said frames can be played in a way that's annoying to players.  Which I can't dispute.  But you're insisting the frames themselves are designed poorly because of this.  Which is reaching beyond your grasp.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... and thereby continue killing enemies across the map through walls, which is made even easier by Miasma. You are not describing any downtime to Saryn's problematic mechanics here.

Except by your own admission, Saryn can single-handedly kill enemies, so she isn't so much of a kill enabler as she is a kill stealer, in the sense that she is capable of killing enemies before anyone else can reach them, thereby causing her allies to travel through a virtually empty map and fail to engage at all with major core gameplay elements. This is a problem players have pointed out, and so it is a problem that needs to be resolved. If you think being a kill enabler is part of Saryn's theme, then it seems we're in agreement, and in which case I don't really see why it you'd disagree to preventing her Spores from dealing lethal damage.

It's not one or the other.  She does both.  Majority of frames out there are capable of "kill stealing" at star chart content.  The fact that you'd specifically call something kill stealing means you believe you have some kind of right to the enemy you didn't kill.  Which is silly.  If you didn't kill it that's your problem.  Not your allies.  If kills mean that much to you play a frame that's designed to kill very well.  I'm against it because it's a completely not needed change to a kit that works fine.  You're wanting change for the sake of change and dressing it up with a "problem" that is a player perceived one.  Not a legitimate one.  Saryn's power is properly in check as is.  She needs to keep her spores spreading to keep her damage going so she can continue to kill.  She needs her allies to help spread her spores in anything outside of ESO.  Why would I bother keeping my spores up if they can't kill?  I can just recast and have the same debuff ability at the same effectiveness.  It would go against her current design to make that change.  At that point i'd just play another frame who's arguably better at debuffing.

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