Fix the ugly rng machine aka the rivens

[Hobie-wan]

If your could choose what weapon the riven was for when it is first applied, nobody would use them to boost 'weak' weapons up to be more usable in late game. They would all be put on meta weapons to make them more powerful even if there were less stats like lower disposition does now. That type of change would make things even worse.

[DrBorris]

6 minutes ago, iHaku said:

the problem with that picture is that what you see on the left, is an attempt by DE to hit the weapon balance on the right. they regularely do big weapon balance updates to adress inbalances in how strong weapons are compared to others, but they just arent as good as a the community as a whole, especially the hardcore croud that is really good at figureing out what's good and whats not because they put more time into this then developers often do. That's not critizism towards the developers. most people that worked on the developement of a game or invested a lot of time into making mods for a game know very well how this kind of stuff can lead to an alienation towards the thing you're working with and often makes it hard to see things the way players do.

I spend waaaay too much time thinking about the mechanics of Warframe, and a lot of that is (unfortunately) spent on Rivens. And after trying to weigh all of the different ways to balance Rivens, I actually think the net best one is to keep it with the community, but differently.

Basically have a group of 7-11 anonymous community members who together come up with the disposition for Rivens. Then have a bi-monthly adjustment if there have been any meta shifts like new modes, new Warframe synergies, etcetera. It wouldn't be perfect, of course, but I think DE could easily find a group of people in the community who understand the core game mechanics well enough to (together) make the most fair dispositions. Also, new weapons only get assigned a disposition after at least two weeks of being released.

And while I know there will be those that just say "DE can't balance their own game, lul", when it comes to analyzing the meta of a game the people who actually make the meta are probably the most experienced.

[DrBorris]

10 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

If your could choose what weapon the riven was for when it is first applied, nobody would use them to boost 'weak' weapons up to be more usable in late game. They would all be put on meta weapons to make them more powerful even if there were less stats like lower disposition does now. That type of change would make things even worse.

This logically makes no sense if Rivens were balanced.

If I knew that ( Tigris Prime + Riven ) = ( Braton + Riven ) than why would I be any more inclined to get a Riven for Tigris over Braton? The end power is the same, if anything I would be more encouraged to get the Braton Riven because that would be adding a new weapon to my end-game arsenal. Tigris Prime is already good enough. Unless someone just really likes Tigris Prime, in which case why shouldn't they want to maximize their Tigris?

 

Look at how many problems are solved if DE would just balance disposition...

Edited December 5, 2018 by DrBorris

[Hobie-wan]

21 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Look at how many problems are solved if DE would just balance disposition...

That's not as easy as people seem to think it is, especially without making everything feel the same. Rock, paper, scissors is easy. Rock, paper, scissors, log, loose sand, bicycle, thumbtack with fire, cold, toxin, electricity, slash, puncture, impact, road rage, and cold indifference? Not so much.

Obviously rivens made things more difficult and hopefully they get things to a better place. There is absolutely no way everyone will be happy though when things change. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[DrBorris]

10 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

That's not as easy as people seem to think it is, especially without making everything feel the same. Rock, paper, scissors is easy. Rock, paper, scissors, log, loose sand, bicycle, thumbtack with fire, cold, toxin, electricity, slash, puncture, impact, road rage, and cold indifference? Not so much.

Obviously rivens made things more difficult and hopefully they get things to a better place. There is absolutely no way everyone will be happy though when things change. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Oh, I don't think it is easy, but I believe it is possible. And given how much of a boon it would be for the game if Rivens were better, I absolutely believe it is worth the effort.

And yes, someone will be upset no matter what, but just imagine if EA put Rivens into Anthem, you can't honestly tell me that would not be the sequel to the whole Star Wars: Battlefront 2 disaster. Or a closer example would be the player trading store that launched with Diablo III which was met with a bad enough reaction that the entire system was removed (and item drops rebalanced). I should actually do some more research into that because the similarities between that system and Rivens looks staggering on the surface.

[KilluaWalker]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

You do know that there are people who have gambling problems, right? And that there are some people (like me) that hate the core concept of putting something in for an unknown return? An end-game min/max system is a great idea, but please don't tie it to a slot machine.

But i and i sure hope DE don't care about People with gambling problems (when it pertains to video games). I find it so weird when people complain about rng systems when the entire game is just a bunch of dice rolls. 

 

 

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, KilluaWalker said:

But i and i sure hope DE don't care about People with gambling problems (when it pertains to video games). I find it so weird when people complain about rng systems when the entire game is just a bunch of dice rolls. 

1. Power Progression is not a bunch of dice rolls
   • Endo, Credits and MR are the most important things to your power and all just so happen to have virtually no RNG associated with their progression.
2. Generally RNG is within a reasonably tight variance, Rivens are not.

Spoiler

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by DrBorris

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, peterc3 said:

What is this supposed to mean? Mods already take up a slot. Is this supposed to be a meaningful balance by making you take it off one gun and put it on another?

If you read throught it you would noticed that what i suggest is no longer a mod but more like a gear style item equipped onto a weapon.

11 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Not just stat locking, wherein you still have to get the right roll to lock, but outright choosing the stats? They would sooner delete the entire system than allow this.

You literally missed out the whole point of why and how this thing works.

Rivens in this system are just FLAT stat adjustments what affect the base stats of the weapons.

DE sets up an universal max stat list for every weapon category and when you put in a riven it selects stats what can be still boosted from the universal max stat list.

Heres another example for you because it seems you completely missed it.

DE comes and creates a max stat list for full-auto weapons:

 

Fire Rate 10.0 rounds per sec

Accuracy 30

Magazine Size 100 rounds per mag

Max Ammo 500 rounds

Reload Time 2.0 s

Total Damage 20

Crit Chance 25%

Crit Multiplier 2x

Status Chance 25%

 

This is what DE intends to be the baseline for every full-auto weapons. This is the blank rifle.

Now lets say that you want to put a riven on the soma prime.

Looking at the list the soma prime could get the following stat choices from the riven:

+1.4 accuracy (because it has 28.6)

-1 second reload speed (because it has 3)

+8 damage (because it has 12)

+15% status chance (because it only has 10)

Not many choices because the weapon is already close to the baseline idea.

On the other side if you would want to use it on the Tetra you would get the following stat choices:

Firerate: +3.33 because its slower than the baseline.

Accuracy: +11.8 because its less accurate than the baseline

Magazine size +40 because its smaller than the baseline

Crit chance +21% because its lower than the baseline

Crit multiplier +0.5x because its smaller than the baseline

Status chance +5% because its lower than the baseline

 

Much more choices because the weapon is inheritly weaker than the others.

The idea behind the whole thing is to create a baseline amount for everything ingame and equalize the guns around that. IF a weapon is already better than the baseline it literally gets no benefits from the riven but if its worse than the user can freely choose how to improve it.

 

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

If you read throught it you would noticed that what i suggest is no longer a mod but more like a gear style item equipped onto a weapon.

That takes up a mod slot. It walks and quacks like a duck but you are calling it a cat. What is the point of making this not a mod but takes a mod slot anyways?

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You literally missed out the whole point of why and how this thing works.

You've missed the point of Rivens. Your suggestion is allowing all Rivens to work on anything within the same class, choose the stats on the Riven, have the stats affect the base stats of the weapon. This is an insanely huge buff to RIvens on the whole and DE would have no choice but to start designing the game around their existence. This has nothing to do with rarity but the fact anyone with even a single Riven now has access to whatever weapon and stat combo they want.

Your proposal invalidates weapons having different stats for a reason. Might as well reduce every weapon category to a single actual gun and turn the rest into cosmetics.

[Tyreaus]

I feel like everyone might be getting too hung up on the original purpose of Rivens. Yes, the stated intent was to buff underused weapons so they'd be used more often. That's failed abysmally and it's a five hundred mile walk back with no surefire way forward from there. For the work to backtrack Rivens, it's very possible a new system would be less painful and more effective in bringing those underused weapons up (albeit, as others mentioned: some weapons just don't have the mechanics, stats be damned).

IMO, Rivens right now seem kind of like a "screw around" toy. If they're going to be kept at all, that might be the better identity to aim toward, rather than trying to walk them back to their initial intent.

(Everything else I was going to say has already been said, e.g. with this change homogenizing a lot of weapons)

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

You've missed the point of Rivens. Your suggestion is allowing all Rivens to work on anything within the same class, choose the stats on the Riven, have the stats affect the base stats of the weapon. This is an insanely huge buff to RIvens on the whole and DE would have no choice but to start designing the game around their existence. This has nothing to do with rarity but the fact anyone with even a single Riven now has access to whatever weapon and stat combo they want.

Your proposal invalidates weapons having different stats for a reason. Might as well reduce every weapon category to a single actual gun and turn the rest into cosmetics.

It may invalidates weapon differences to a degree but thats the goal here.

I showed you on the soma prime example that some weapons are already soo good that they barely get anything out of this system.

You might have not noticed it but we dont get weapons because they are different, most of us want something what is better than the current we use and to get mr for it. If a weapon cannot provide anything for these it end up as fodder what in turn result in cash loss for DE because you wont forma/potato it anymore.

I dont think it would be realistic at all seeing people complaining at the forums because someone who uses the spectra is as good as they with a meta pyrana setup (sure they could but would it matter), so i dont see any problem with this kind of homogenization.

[Dabnician]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

IF a weapon is already better than the baseline it literally gets no benefits from the riven but if its worse than the user can freely choose how to improve it.

This sounds great in theory but in practice this isnt what happens.

You dont need rivens on a Lanka or a rubico, or a gram or any of the other weapons you all are using with out rivens.

This thread is like watching a bunch of billionaires talk about how tax breaks shouldnt apply to them because they donate so much money to a charity they own. Everyone and their mother knows rivens are broken because you all stick them on weapons that dont "need" them. They were intended to make weapons people would call trash into not trash, because no ips mod in this world could save it for PvE.

[(PSN)teacup775]

4 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

IMO, Rivens right now seem kind of like a "screw around" toy. If they're going to be kept at all, that might be the better identity to aim toward, rather than trying to walk them back to their initial intent.

Except the groll jackpot nature of them breeds gambling style mentality and ethic especially in trade chat. The OCD layers on it are nasty and it is NOT a characteristic DE should be cultivating. So many drops are utter trash, in the current system, they offer very little to a player for ther “luck” in terms of use or trade value. 

I’d rather see a system where a raw riven could make its weapon nice, if a player put effort into the riven. People could actually tinker with them and over time different “builds” may emerge.

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)teacup775

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Dabnician said:

This sounds great in theory but in practice this isnt what happens.

You dont need rivens on a Lanka or a rubico, or a gram or any of the other weapons you all are using with out rivens.

This thread is like watching a bunch of billionaires talk about how tax breaks shouldnt apply to them because they donate so much money to a charity they own. Everyone and their mother knows rivens are broken because you all stick them on weapons that dont "need" them. They were intended to make weapons people would call trash into not trash, because no ips mod in this world could save it for PvE.

I know thats why i suggested this change, its up to DE to decide what should be the baseline stats and every weapon what has better stats than what the baseline is simply doesnt benefit from them at all.

I mean if you now get a riven for the soma prime what gives more crit chance, crit damage, multishot with negative zoom thats great because it empowers already good stats but with this change that is no longer possible because those stats are already above the baseline.

The goal is to rise up the poor to the greats by making them function much better and since this system modifies base stats it also makes the mod possibility of these weapons better. 

[Volinus7]

Has someone spent more than $70000 on rivens? 

Is it time to insert Gudako meme into Warframe? 

 

[Chaemyerelis]

You misspelled delete.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Except the groll jackpot nature of them breeds gambling style mentality and ethic especially in trade chat. The OCD layers on it are nasty and it is NOT a characteristic DE should be cultivating. So many drops are utter trash, in the current system, they offer very little to a player for ther “luck” in terms of use or trade value. 

I’d rather see a system where a raw riven could make its weapon nice, if a player put effort into the riven. People could actually tinker with them and over time different “builds” may emerge.

Divorcing Rivens from a gambling mentality isn't exclusive with what I said. What I was getting at was the fact that Rivens fail miserably in trying to close the underused / meta gap in weapons and the effort required to roll them back in that direction is so gigantic that one may as well come up with something new for that purpose. A MR gilding system where players can boost specific stats on a weapon relative to the inverse of its MR (lower MR = more stat boosts), for example, off which Riven stats might springboard.

I don't disagree with the goals, I'm just weary about the proposed solution.

[Artekkor]

I'm sure someone probably mentioned it already... But rivens are not exactly meant to be something you strive for.
You just sort of... Get one and move along with it. Got it for a weapon you would love to try it on? Lucky you. Go roll it some and get something you are okay with.

Although it does gets annoying sometimes... (says the guy who rolld Quartakk riven 75 times and still not happy with the results)

[Alikka_TeSiw]

6 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

I'm sure someone probably mentioned it already... But rivens are not exactly meant to be something you strive for.
You just sort of... Get one and move along with it. Got it for a weapon you would love to try it on? Lucky you. Go roll it some and get something you are okay with.

Although it does gets annoying sometimes... (says the guy who rolld Quartakk riven 75 times and still not happy with the results)

I rolled my Synapse riven about 135 times T_T  but did finally get something i liked.

[Buttaface]

Let's not post in the existing 1-3 irrational riven whine threads per week, let's start brand NEW ones! That's the ticket!

Rivens are not "progression gear," more like weapon cosmetics for bored vets. Unlike other games, there is NO content in WF that requires rivens to complete. Unlike other games, rivens do not materially impact the overall damage picture of the game or any of its modes.

You do not NEED rivens to be terrifically successful at the easy game of Warframe, so these infinite whinging threads are the exact same as whining that you can't get this or that cosmetic other than by playing a game mode you do not like.

Don't like farming kuva, trading chat, riven.market, rolling rivens, etc. DON'T... DO... IT. None of those things has any impact at all on whether you succeed or fail at playing Warframe, not WOW, not a raid treadmill MMO, but the game called Warframe that you are actually playing.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Buttaface

[Fallen_Echo]

8 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Let's not post in the existing 1-3 irrational riven whine threads per week, let's start brand NEW ones! That's the ticket!

Rivens are not "progression gear," more like weapon cosmetics for bored vets. Unlike other games, there is NO content in WF that requires rivens to complete. Unlike other games, rivens do not materially impact the overall damage picture of the game or any of its modes.

You do not NEED rivens to be terrifically successful at the easy game of Warframe, so these infinite whinging threads are the exact same as whining that you can't get this or that cosmetic other than by playing a game mode you do not like.

Don't like farming kuva, trading chat, riven.market, rolling rivens, etc. DON'T... DO... IT. None of those things has any impact at all on whether you succeed or fail at playing Warframe, not WOW, not a raid treadmill MMO, but the game called Warframe that you are actually playing.

Look i own several good rivens what really make some guns powerful and lesser gear actually useful but that doesnt mean im going to sit down and say the system is perfect.

[Dabnician]

On 2018-12-06 at 11:01 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

I know thats why i suggested this change, its up to DE to decide what should be the baseline stats and every weapon what has better stats than what the baseline is simply doesnt benefit from them at all.

They could just make all 1 disposition rivens add +0% and -0% so that it will become powerful one day if that weapon falls out of favor and be done with it.