- DE - When will the level of the enemies follow the power of the weapons

[Q7frkz]

(I'm not English 🙂 sry for the errors of syntax)

Hey

I think there is a problem, you create more and more content for new players but there is nothing for experimented players (MR20+).

I just time me in simulacre, I need 22 seconds to kill 20 corrupted bombard eximus lvl160 with a plague keewar and a trinity which does not influence the damage (no aura, no arcane, no exodus, no riven on weapon). Is it normal ?  (with normal equipment 11 seconds !)

This level of ennemies does not exist in (normal) game and I can nuke them so easily ?

We can find them after about 1.5 hour of survival arbitration ? Is it normal to wait hours and hours to begin to play ?

There is a lot of things to do without lot of code or with existant code :

=> Nightmare sortie mission : 1)lvl200 2)lvl250 3)lvl300 => that going to force us to play in team 

=> Nightmare Arbitration : start lvl 150-200

=> Encrease the evolution of level in endless mission (x4 x5 x6 each hour ?)

=> Encrease the number of enemies in game

=> BONUS : Let us choose the level of game, that could be so cool to try an extermination lvl500 😄 

 

Today there isnt any game we cannot do alone, isnt it strange for a cooperation game ? Some players do trio eidolon alone !!

The real problem is warframe and weapon are rly rly rly too powerful for present enemies, don't nerf our weapons ! Buff the enemies ! I think the experimented players' equipment today is made to play with lvl200-250 ennemies perhaps 300 (i dont know i can't test in simulacre)

 

Thank you for reading / sorry for my English

Best regards !

 

 

 

[Voltage]

I love it. Also make the scaling in Nightmare Arbitration much tougher than the slowness of normal Arbitration.

Enemy density is a major factor in the difficulty of a mission, and this should be addressed throughout all endless modes, especially Fissure endless missions.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Voltage

[Q7frkz]

Ye, for arbitration, twice the difficulty and endo every 5 minuts in survival 🙂

For the density of enemies, there will be maybe a problem with low configuration computer., but i don't know their code

[peterc3]

6 minutes ago, Q7frkz said:

There is a lot of things to do without lot of code or with existant code :

I'm sure the devs will appreciate being told they have an easy job to do with this. Will get right on it.

7 minutes ago, Q7frkz said:

=> Nightmare sortie mission : 1)lvl200 2)lvl250 3)lvl300 => that going to force us to play in team 

Numerous ways to do this solo. Forced team content will be unpopular.

[Sorkheff]

Not sure about a lot of the scaling, but I like the idea of Nightmare/extra challenge modes for more content.

I would love to see some sort of way to increase enemy spawn counts, though. Even if it requires you to stress test in the simulacrum to find the limit of enemies your own computer can take.

I think for survival, excav, endless missions, you should have the option to start at 30 minute intervals you've already completed. IE, you do a survival mission get to 35 minutes, now you can open that mission up at 30 minute scaling to start with. You wouldn't start with bonus loot or anything, just you challenging enemies.

[Q7frkz]

x

Edited December 16, 2018 by Q7frkz

[Q7frkz]

il y a 11 minutes, peterc3 a dit :

I'm sure the devs will appreciate being told they have an easy job to do with this. Will get right on it.

Numerous ways to do this solo. Forced team content will be unpopular.

I could try explain them my vision of next open world :), that will open world in Void .... Lot of code and they don't need me for that.

But nightmare sortie, its just no code ! Change the variable lvl 60 by 200 finish !

I'm not denigrating their work I just say : "before doing big update you can do little things with these ideas" nothing more.

For the second part, we can do everythng alone but we are here to play 🙂 Force people t play togather is not a bad thing when you do a trio eidolon you recrute ? hat will be the same for Nightmare Sortie, nothing else.

You always can do a survival lvl10k with a loki or a limbo, is this fun for you ?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Q7frkz

[Q7frkz]

il y a 3 minutes, Sorkheff a dit :

Not sure about a lot of the scaling, but I like the idea of Nightmare/extra challenge modes for more content.

I would love to see some sort of way to increase enemy spawn counts, though. Even if it requires you to stress test in the simulacrum to find the limit of enemies your own computer can take.

I think for survival, excav, endless missions, you should have the option to start at 30 minute intervals you've already completed. IE, you do a survival mission get to 35 minutes, now you can open that mission up at 30 minute scaling to start with. You wouldn't start with bonus loot or anything, just you challenging enemies.

ah ye ! not choose the level but choose the time, good idea.

[rune_me]

As has been said many, many times before (since this has been suggested many, many times before as well), simply increasing the level of enemies isn't really going to do much, other than make me spend more time killing an enemy. We all know that once you reach a certain level, the threat in this game is nullifiers, not whether the level of the enemy is 200 or 300. Nova will still slow a lvl 300 to a crawl just as well as a lvl 200. Rhino's stomp will still stun them. Limbo will still stroll right through a lvl 300 crowd, and Octavia will still dance in a corner while they proceed to kill themselves. 

[ThumpumGood]

As soon as you stop leaving at 5-20 minutes and go for hours instead.  Start in a 60-80 and just stay til you cant stay any longer.

 

 

[Voltage]

24 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

I'm sure the devs will appreciate being told they have an easy job to do with this. Will get right on it.

OP is implying that his idea could be implemented off an existing foundation in the game. Meeting their ideas and feedback with sarcasm provides absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand. Increasing enemy level and spawn counts would logically be small changes.

24 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Numerous ways to do this solo. Forced team content will be unpopular.

I partially agree. All content should be allowed to be done alone, but doing so should severely gimp the player. Only highly skilled and equipped players should be able to complete the objective alone. Team based content forces you to work with others and communicate to a common objective. If this content is available, it should incline you to form a team, and give you a really hard time when you don't. I don't see anything wrong with making players communicate in some form to finish an objective.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Voltage

[Urlan]

I both don't see the point of increasing the enemy levels to such silly degrees as players don't scale to that point; and have repeatedly found that mastery rank is no mark of play experience or being a veteran. You might notice that enemies keep increasing while players have a limited mod slot space, points and base stats per their gear that doesn't just increase outside mod assistance. That said, it wouldn't be too hard to add more modes to nightmare and arbitration if a significant number of players want them. As is, we would have to hear back from DE about the official numbers on those, as I don't figure they are all that high.

[zornyan]

4 minutes ago, Urlan said:

I both don't see the point of increasing the enemy levels to such silly degrees as players don't scale to that point; and have repeatedly found that mastery rank is no mark of play experience or being a veteran. You might notice that enemies keep increasing while players have a limited mod slot space, points and base stats per their gear that doesn't just increase outside mod assistance. That said, it wouldn't be too hard to add more modes to nightmare and arbitration if a significant number of players want them. As is, we would have to hear back from DE about the official numbers on those, as I don't figure they are all that high.

To be fair lvl 200 isn’t even crazy, people have solo’d lvl 800+ enemies in survivals and well over level 2000 in group endless runs.

 

actually in any decent group, lvl 400 isn’t even challenging, with 4X cp armroed enemies are cannon fodder, and decent CC still makes them a cake walk

[LSG501]

Without some sort of 'scaling rewards' anything like this will basically be dead on arrival for a large portion of the players in the game...as much as 'end gamers' shout for it a large majority have no interest in doing long runs etc. 

Also all that will happen with 'higher levels' is a meta squad will be formed (as there already is for 'high level' endless runs) so players can cheese things.  As soon as you put something in to remove the cheese we complain because it stops us using our abilities to cheese things (elite onslaught cooldown for example). 

 

In essence we need more than just higher levels to make things 'harder' in this game and in all honesty I doubt DE are that interested in catering to the 'end gamers' as a majority of their income is derived from players who don't have everything and as such that will be or is their main focus. 

Even 'end game' stuff like arbitrations and eso isn't really end game, it's just a mode where it can 'prevent abilities' and/or has no revives.

 

Now don't get me wrong I'd love a 'higher tier' star map but I'd also expect higher level rewards for it, and I don't mean relics or endo/ayatan like the current 'end game' content. 

[WRESinn]

I don't think that the enemies level following the power of the weapons is a good idea.  Consider this, you're some new player working his way through Venus and doing well enough.  Suddenly a level 24 tenno joins the party and suddenly all of the enemies are level 80 because of his weapons.  Sounds like a real problem to me.

[RhythmScript]

Enemy scaling is the worst way of designing difficulty though. Lv200, lv300, it doesn’t matter because after a certain point you’re rolling out some meme team based on Arcane Energize, Zenurik Dash, and ability spam that doesn’t care what level the opposing enemy fodder is.

What is really needed is

(a) more diverse and aggressive enemy AI (Orb Vallis is a great start toward this)

(b) more ways for the enemy to counter ability spam when it happens; I’d like to see adaptive spawning AI where relative usage rates of ability, gun, and melee trigger more enemies which can counter you. E.g. if you spam abilities, the game starts sending out tons of units with nullifier capability. If you only use guns, the game drops tons of enemies which can dodge quickly and spawn snowglobes or other shields. If you only use melee, enemies can parry your strikes and tend to carry big AoE guns that make it difficult to get close.

Adaptive spawning (and new AI patterns to complement it) if done right would mean players are compelled to switch tactics frequently to deal meaningful damage, which in turn prevents leaning too hard into cheese builds.

Sentients are a decent step in this direction (with damage adaptation), it’s just that in practice it doesn’t play out like on paper, especially with their low spawn rates.

[peterc3]

47 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Team based content forces you to work with others and communicate to a common objective.

This immediately turns off lots of people. Jump in, jump out co-op is what most people want.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

15 minutes ago, RhythmScript said:

(b) more ways for the enemy to counter ability spam when it happens; I’d like to see adaptive spawning AI where relative usage rates of ability, gun, and melee trigger more enemies which can counter you.

WoW already has adaptive AI. Want to know how it turned out? Billion dollar studio with all the money/advice/inhouse tools included ... and as a tank you gather the mob and peck them to death, while the adaptive AI has them trying to literally kiss your rear end.

That's not fun, that's annoying. More so when your back is towards the wall like a good tank tanks, the AI is still behind you within the wall now, and your abilities doesn't whittle them down.

Tech isn't there yet to use adaptive AI well. NPCs are still quirky in routing and countering abilities, more so when they get "lost" in the environment, especially walls and floors. Then add the maddening scripting that doesn't factor in can't go into walls/floors and fire back -- or even more silly, have 3 NPCs standing on your SHOULDERS (yes, literally stacked on your shoulders, because the script has them avoiding your bonuses in attacking from the front, even at comic levels!).

[zornyan]

Also, spawning nullifiers isn’t even a challenge, it’s just a “hey you can’t use any powers, what’s that you’re not one of 2 frames that ignore nullies? Tough”

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb zornyan:

Also, spawning nullifiers isn’t even a challenge, it’s just a “hey you can’t use any powers, what’s that you’re not one of 2 frames that ignore nullies? Tough”

What is a challenge then?

 

Ive seen this statement already when they introduced the Drones in Arbitrations, lots of people only saying "its no challenge, its just annoying".

But imo thats the point, like people pointed out, as long as we can effect 90% of the enemies with all our abilities, nothing will be a challenge, so it has to be done like that.

[zornyan]

7 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

What is a challenge then?

 

Ive seen this statement already when they introduced the Drones in Arbitrations, lots of people only saying "its no challenge, its just annoying".

But imo thats the point, like people pointed out, as long as we can effect 90% of the enemies with all our abilities, nothing will be a challenge, so it has to be done like that.

NOX, perfect sentiment of challenge.

 

requires targeting a weak point, can cause knockdowns if you’re careless, far more tanky than normal enemies without hitting weakspot, deals good damage too.

 

poor idea of challenge would be commanders, spam CC switch teleport on you

 

The smaller orbs in fortuna are a better idea, couple stages to deal with, multiple different moves etc.

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, zornyan said:

To be fair lvl 200 isn’t even crazy, people have solo’d lvl 800+ enemies in survivals and well over level 2000 in group endless runs.

 

actually in any decent group, lvl 400 isn’t even challenging, with 4X cp armroed enemies are cannon fodder, and decent CC still makes them a cake walk

With tricks and avoiding damage through massive crowd control, you can not play against such enemies on an even ground and what is used to try to do so is what DE and some players would call "cheese" rather than good play and tactics. This should be telling.

[Sorkheff]

3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Without some sort of 'scaling rewards' anything like this will basically be dead on arrival for a large portion of the players in the game...as much as 'end gamers' shout for it a large majority have no interest in doing long runs etc.

Now don't get me wrong I'd love a 'higher tier' star map but I'd also expect higher level rewards for it, and I don't mean relics or endo/ayatan like the current 'end game' content. 

Yep. I have a hard time trying to figure end game out in this game, because they've done a good job of keeping it soloable...and any "endgame" content in most other games is exclusively not that. I think they'd do well to add in leaderboards for modes, so the players that want to cheese can get their recognition without breaking the games economy/balance?

What would be an acceptable end game reward? (Not just addressed at you, but it's a question I'm very curious aboot)

For those who already have everything, what more is there to give them?

[RhythmScript]

2 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

WoW already has adaptive AI. Want to know how it turned out? Billion dollar studio with all the money/advice/inhouse tools included ... and as a tank you gather the mob and peck them to death, while the adaptive AI has them trying to literally kiss your rear end.

That's not fun, that's annoying. More so when your back is towards the wall like a good tank tanks, the AI is still behind you within the wall now, and your abilities doesn't whittle them down.

Tech isn't there yet to use adaptive AI well. NPCs are still quirky in routing and countering abilities, more so when they get "lost" in the environment, especially walls and floors. Then add the maddening scripting that doesn't factor in can't go into walls/floors and fire back -- or even more silly, have 3 NPCs standing on your SHOULDERS (yes, literally stacked on your shoulders, because the script has them avoiding your bonuses in attacking from the front, even at comic levels!).

I’m not saying we need “learning AI” or whatever buzzword, I’m just saying that instead of drawing from a purely random pool of enemies, the spawn script should weight what spawns based on current damage output.

simple script, which is (essentially) already in use, which is to track total damage dealt. Instead track effective damage dealt (so dealing 37,454 damage to an enemy with 6k HP only adds 6k to your total) based on 3 categories: ability use, gunfire, melee strike. All this data is already gathered to determine things like end-mission stats and the allocation of XP, the scripts are there.

Take your weighted ratios and use them to draw from 3 tables of enemies; “ability counter” enemies, “gunfire counter” enemies, “melee counter” enemies. If a squad has dealt 90% of its damage via ability use, 90% of the enemies spawned from that point on should be pulled from the “ability counter” table. Assuming all tables share some class of grunt enemy, what this will look like is “nullifiers spawn way more if you use abilities a lot; bursas spawn way more if you use guns a lot, trenchers spawn way more if you use melee a lot” or whatever. The enemy classes that “hard counter” certain playstyles are already in the game, I’m mainly suggesting that the game listen to your gameplay behavior each mission to determine which hard counters to spawn most often based on what you do. Forces more frequent switch-ups and requires players to make more well-rounded builds if Saryn 4 spam across 3 rooms brings 6 nullifiers each in the next 3.

[Kierlak]

You people need to stop ordering a pizza, and then complaining it's not a catfish dinner.

 

Warframe is not a game designed to be challenging, nor could it ever be turned into a satisfying challenge game, because the foundations were never built with that in mind.

 

If you want challenge, go elsewhere.