All Endless missions discussion (Ideas to stay longer)

[torint_man]

Any sort of scaling should not be infinite. If you want an example of scaling that DE finds acceptable, look at endless fissures. You get +25% boosters of each type every 5 minutes and a refined relic every 25 minutes. However, the boosters stop at +100%, and the refined relic reward doesn't go beyond a single radiant relic. I think it should be VERY obvious why infinite scaling shouldn't be a thing, but I'll explain anyway. You get a situation where the players that do go long get exponentially more rewards than those who don't, requiring DE to balance around the players that get insane rewards, in turn going against the philosophy that they have outright stated they want to maintain, that of Warframe being able to be played in 20-60 minute chunks and not losing out significantly doing that just because you don't no-life the game.

Any sort of scaling needs to cap. Endless fissures effectively cap at 75 minutes as it gives you radiant relics from then on, and fully caps at 95 minutes if you care to get that last 25%, which isn't that relevant outside of the resource one for void traces. Also, void traces have a storage cap, meaning that if you go beyond 100 minutes, you'll very quickly not need to bother, as any "no-life" with a booster will cap their storage cap by 125 minutes. You are not compelled that heavily to go beyond an hour. You don't get exponentially less rewards for not going long.

If we math out something like +25% kuva every 20 minutes infinitely, anyone can see why infinite scaling isn't a thing. Going 10 hours would get you 3.7 times more kuva than doing 1 hour 10 times. That is ridiculous. In order to be actually efficient, you'd be forced to spend multiple hours in a mission, which is unreasonable in and of itself, and flies in the face of DE's 20 minutes to an hour philosophy.

Ideal, acceptable scaling would be something like kuva scaling to +25% after 20 minutes and +50% after 40 minutes, then no further. Going 10 hours only gets you 18% more than going an hour 10 times. It's more efficient to go long, but not to an extent where the game has to balance around the more efficient method. Another I would like is AABC going to ABC after the first rotation, encouraging going beyond one or two rotations for a rotation B or C reward. Doing a 100 round interception gets you 33 rotation Cs, while doing 4 round interceptions 25 times gets you 25 rotation Cs, making the endurance method a 32% increase. Objectively better, but not to an extent where players feel punished for not doing so.

[DerGreif2]

All I am reading here is: "I dont want that others with more time than me should be rewarded more. I like getting rewards with no effort! Dont let others that stay longer get more than me."

Its not like all people would say: "We do 3 hour missions now or I troll".

 

I am surprised by this tbh. I thought that better rewards by fighting stronger enmys would be a good thing.

Edited February 12, 2019 by DerGreif2

[DerGreif2]

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

Any sort of scaling should not be infinite. If you want an example of scaling that DE finds acceptable, look at endless fissures. You get +25% boosters of each type every 5 minutes and a refined relic every 25 minutes. However, the boosters stop at +100%, and the refined relic reward doesn't go beyond a single radiant relic.

THAT is a thing that I can get behing. I just wish they would remove the credit and mod rewards later and would gave us better relics instread and more endo. Sure a max point where the scaling ends is needed.But toget nothing out of it is pretty bad also.

Edited February 12, 2019 by DerGreif2

[Medeucea]

How about making them fun and interesting

[Guest]

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam and their answer is still the same. Not going to happen. Deal with it.

Marathon runs not being encouraged is a deliberate design choice. They've said that they might make some slight changes on how the reward rotations work but don't expect anything more than that.

 

[RitzBitz13]

11 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

That is not the point. We need scaling rewards for endless missions. The people that want can go but the people that stay should be rewarded for taking the risk. It is not fair in the moment. Per 20 min / waves there should be 2x the rewards and after 40 min 3x times the reward and so on.

What is so hard to understand that simple scaling rewards would make the game better? It does not mean scale the rewards down for the 20 min player.

Fighting higher enemys = getting higher rewards.

It's simple as that. Just because some people dont want to stay in a mission for a long time why should people that like it should not be rewarded for it?

No one forces you to stay above 20 min or waves but some people might want that.

 

Sometimes I dont understand some people...

yeah its not about ppl dont want to stay longer. There are some that do, point being the Kuva mission. The longer you grind the more kuva you get would be a great insentive and ppl grind Kuva like crazy so if you push higher, you should be rewarded with higher was what i was trying to get at

Edited February 13, 2019 by RItzBitz13

[RitzBitz13]

3 hours ago, torint_man said:

Any sort of scaling should not be infinite. If you want an example of scaling that DE finds acceptable, look at endless fissures. You get +25% boosters of each type every 5 minutes and a refined relic every 25 minutes. However, the boosters stop at +100%, and the refined relic reward doesn't go beyond a single radiant relic. I think it should be VERY obvious why infinite scaling shouldn't be a thing, but I'll explain anyway. You get a situation where the players that do go long get exponentially more rewards than those who don't, requiring DE to balance around the players that get insane rewards, in turn going against the philosophy that they have outright stated they want to maintain, that of Warframe being able to be played in 20-60 minute chunks and not losing out significantly doing that just because you don't no-life the game.

Ideal, acceptable scaling would be something like kuva scaling to +25% after 20 minutes and +50% after 40 minutes, then no further. Going 10 hours only gets you 18% more than going an hour 10 times. It's more efficient to go long, but not to an extent where the game has to balance around the more efficient method. Another I would like is AABC going to ABC after the first rotation, encouraging going beyond one or two rotations for a rotation B or C reward. Doing a 100 round interception gets you 33 rotation Cs, while doing 4 round interceptions 25 times gets you 25 rotation Cs, making the endurance method a 32% increase. Objectively better, but not to an extent where players feel punished for not doing so. 

That makes sense too, I was going to add that in my long discussion but I had put so much i knew someone would mention that. Even if after a certain point the scaling stopped it would still make more sense than just the general amount that we have. If we push really high, I would want to get more or extra rewards for facing much stronger enemies. but ur explanation would be awesome too

Edited February 13, 2019 by RItzBitz13

[Venyxos]

Wanted to toss this in:

I reckon the biggest issue with "endless" missions is maintaining a party...

To this I say, at some point(s) during the mission, there must be a re-instancing where players on the same level of the same mission get grouped together as folks leave. That way, players who wish/actively trying to stay longer, regardless of the implementation/rewards, may do so

[DerGreif2]

5 hours ago, Venyxos said:

I reckon the biggest issue with "endless" missions is maintaining a party...

If I want to do a long run I go alone or with clan mates... it's not common for a public group to stay longer than 20 min.

[stormy505]

A fair scailing system that de has said they might add is. Removing the more common/useless rewards the farther you go into the mission. Imo this wouldn't be a hard incentive to go longer and also for the people capable for going longer than an hour, chances are they already have all the mods from the common drop table.

[DreisterDino]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb DerGreif2:

I am surprised by this tbh. I thought that better rewards by fighting stronger enmys would be a good thing.

I think this shows that it is about greed and envy, although the people that are against it wouldnt admit it (not saying its the case for everyone)

The thing is, even the people that dont want to do 2 hour runs would still benefit from scaling rewards, because in most suggestions, rewards start scaling already after 5 or 10 minutes, and i think everyone does a mission that is a bit longer than that from time to time. So everyone would benefit.

 

But, they dont benefit as much as others, and thats the point.

 

There has been a study in which people were asked something like this (dont remember exact numbers):

Do you want to earn:

A: 1000$ when everybody else earns 900$

B: 1200$ when everybody else earns 1400$

 

You might have guessed it already, but more people have chosen A, although they have less than in scenario B.

I guess its something similiar here...you could get more, but when that implies that others get even more than you - no thx.

 

vor 12 Stunden schrieb torint_man:

Any sort of scaling should not be infinite.

I agree with this though, because like torint_man explained already, DE would have to balance around the very few people that go crazy long then, and that would probably mean that casual players would get less than they get now. Like he said, the way it works in FissureMissions would be fine.

Edited February 13, 2019 by DreisterDino

[Birkenhoff]

Am ‎12‎.‎02‎.‎2019 um 01:40 schrieb RItzBitz13:

If there was an extra type of reward system that was put in place, players would extend their mission time and would start grinding out higher levels. This would give everyone the opportunity to push their warframes to the limit with these extra rewards as incentive.

IMO there's no need for extra awards. Best example is excavations. People play them when they're in need of cryotics - as I do. I usually play about 10-20 excavations with a full squad. People usually just want to leave when excavators start dying not because of the self given goal to do 2 extractions and leave.

The motivation to join a pug for other endless missions is usually the relic farm and there the AABC rotation kicks in as the biggest downer. It barely happens that people continue after reaching the C rotation because there's no reason to continue.

If those rotations would be adjusted to arbitrations (maybe with slightly more crap in the loot table so market traders won't be offended :) ) people would simply stay longer - as they do in arbys. I'd 2 hour interception and survival games with arbitration pugs and I'm safe to say that this will never happen in a random Axi farm.

[Chewarette]

6 minutes ago, Birkenhoff said:

If those rotations would be adjusted to arbitrations (maybe with slightly more crap in the loot table so market traders won't be offended :) ) people would simply stay longer - as they do in arbys. I'd 2 hour interception and survival games with arbitration pugs and I'm safe to say that this will never happen in a random Axi farm.

I'm pretty sure this is not only due to Arbitrations' endless C rotation. It's more likely due to the fact you also can't repeat the mission itself. 

So either you leave early and cry upon this infamous Defection / Atlas +300% / Furis +300% that just respawned, or you continue because you're quite happy with this Survival / Chroma+300%

Edited February 13, 2019 by Chewarette

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Won't happen & is a bad idea.

Like it or not. DE would have to rebuild the loot tables & design them around Endurance runs. Otherwise Endurance players would easily obtain everything/hoard absurd amounts of resources (Kuva, Endo, etc).

This would negatively impact the rest of the game & the community.

This isn't an "Us vs Them" arguement its RPG/Loot Table common sense.

It isn't even a matter of greed for the majority of the playerbase.

The majority of the playerbase leave within/around DE's intended time frame.

Scaling the rewards would now effectively be creating a system that punishes players. (Punishment is used because once the players learn of the scaling. They would realize that unless they dedicate __ time then game will NOT reward them properly. That is punishment.)

We have to be careful with "Incentive" as it can be used positively. But just as quickly can be used to manipulate, pigeonhole, & blackmail.

A previous comment nailed it by break down how gaming communities degrade over mechanics like this.

People can pretend it doesn't happen all they want but to the truth is that such a system would end up empowering players to self-enforce. Meta builds, Auras, Frames, Weapons, etc.

Which in turn would breed toxicity.

Personally, I think DE should just add the the Boosters to all Endless missions.

4 cycles/rotations = Maxed Resources Boosters.

Fair enough.

[DreisterDino]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Zero_029:

Scaling the rewards would now effectively be creating a system that punishes players. (Punishment is used because once the players learn of the scaling. They would realize that unless they dedicate __ time then game will NOT reward them properly. That is punishment.)

If you just continue to play like you always do when scaling rewards would exist, you

• get just as much rewards as if scaling rewards wouldnt be a thing
• even get a little more because scaling would start already pretty early in the game

 

How can someone make this into

• not rewarded properly
• Punishment

 

If you stay a little longer, you get rewarded - if not you get as much as always - how the hell can someone describe that as punishment?

Sry, proof me wrong but for me the only reason is: Others get more than i do - and i dont like that although it doesnt even affect me.

[so_many_watermelons]

On 2019-02-11 at 7:45 PM, Phatose said:

Not in favor.  Super long missions do not please me, neither does inefficiency.  I do not want to have to choose between the two.  Endless missions should not provide extra rewards beyond the base, save for bragging rights.  If we want harder, more rewarding missions, just give us missions that start out harder, not missions that incentive sitting for extended periods of time.

You sort of just suggested a decent addition to what the OP's wanting, and it was something mentioned a couple devstreams ago. Selective difficulty. I'd be very up for scaling rewards in endless missions like Kuva Survivals and Excavations if we could select the general enemy difficulty level we want to start at, regardless of the planet. This could then also slightly adjust the loot knob to numbers that make more sense. That way, you don't have to wait until 60 minutes to get good Kuva numbers going, but damn if you're not going to suffer against greatly increased difficulty if you wish to circumvent that waiting.

[spirit_of_76]

14 hours ago, RItzBitz13 said:

yeah its not about ppl dont want to stay longer. There are some that do, point being the Kuva mission. The longer you grind the more kuva you get would be a great insentive and ppl grind Kuva like crazy so if you push higher, you should be rewarded with higher was what i was trying to get at

Most pub teams I find will do about 40min on average (I have done 1 hour + missions here with a good necros, and a 35min mission with 2 Octavia's a Loki and a limbo)
While I agree that adding some scaling to the mission would help I would cap it after a while and I would keep it less effective per unit time than a kuva flood.  

I would not bother scaling the excavation missions, pub will still do 12-20 round depending on comp,
Defense and interception need better drop tables/rewards than anything
Finally, survival needs a total drop table overhaul, it needs to be on par with the longer modes and not tied to the fastest endless mode. 

[spirit_of_76]

30 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

You sort of just suggested a decent addition to what the OP's wanting, and it was something mentioned a couple devstreams ago. Selective difficulty. I'd be very up for scaling rewards in endless missions like Kuva Survivals and Excavations if we could select the general enemy difficulty level we want to start at, regardless of the planet. This could then also slightly adjust the loot knob to numbers that make more sense. That way, you don't have to wait until 60 minutes to get good Kuva numbers going, but damn if you're not going to suffer against greatly increased difficulty if you wish to circumvent that waiting

while a pain from a matchmaking front I would like to see this as well.   personally I would enjoy the chance to test my build on LV 70 enemies without going into ESO or the sortie.  if it boosted the enemy drop chance in  normal missions I could see this as a boon to the player

[Softballbryan]

Start the mission on a certain difficulty that gives more/better stuff. Love it!

[Venyxos]

On 2019-02-13 at 5:05 AM, DreisterDino said:

I think this shows that it is about greed and envy, although the people that are against it wouldnt admit it (not saying its the case for everyone)

The thing is, even the people that dont want to do 2 hour runs would still benefit from scaling rewards, because in most suggestions, rewards start scaling already after 5 or 10 minutes, and i think everyone does a mission that is a bit longer than that from time to time. So everyone would benefit.

 

But, they dont benefit as much as others, and thats the point.

 

There has been a study in which people were asked something like this (dont remember exact numbers):

Do you want to earn:

A: 1000$ when everybody else earns 900$

B: 1200$ when everybody else earns 1400$

 

You might have guessed it already, but more people have chosen A, although they have less than in scenario B.

I guess its something similiar here...you could get more, but when that implies that others get even more than you - no thx.

Maybe this was in the study you're quoting but due to the nature of money/economics/currency, your 1200 IS less if everyone else is making 1400. It's rock hard math.

***You could ask the exact same question this way:
Everyone earns 100% except you. Would you rather earn:
A: 111%
B: 86%

Edited February 14, 2019 by Venyxos

[Venyxos]

14 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

If I want to do a long run I go alone or with clan mates... it's not common for a public group to stay longer than 20 min.

Yea because if one person leaves, it's usually over. Hence why you're better off going alone or counting on clanmates with the current system. Am I missing something?

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Meanwhile I would like a void capture mission that rewards Axi Relics because Heiracon is getting old....finally...

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

On 2019-02-12 at 7:37 AM, DerGreif2 said:

But we should be rewarded for staying longer. That's normaly the point of endless modes.

Which would alienate and annoy a huge portion of the playerbase.  Just because I decide to play longer doesn't mean I should be treated special.

 

That is what more difficult content is for 

[so_many_watermelons]

42 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Which would alienate and annoy a huge portion of the playerbase.  Just because I decide to play longer doesn't mean I should be treated special.

 

That is what more difficult content is for 

It's not really being treated special, it's just getting a worthwhile amount of reward for playing longer and against such an infinitely scaling difficulty. I can't see how that's so terrible. Not everybody cares about bragging rights on the crappy leaderboards nobody really checks ingame. People who don't play so long will get the same amount they usually get for the same effort, while people who want to put in the considerably larger investment of time and effort can get an amount of in their reward. Sounds like a decent trade off to me, since while you're putting a lot of effort into playing at such high levels for maybe 20% extra of a resource per drop, someone else could be coasting by in a much easier game by extracting and starting over. Easy game, good rewards. Harder game, somewhat better rewards.

Nobody's getting alienated but those who want to feel like they are. When in reality, they can either try to follow suit and play longer/at higher levels, or not and simply not worry about being challenged, because they don't have to be.

I'm saying this with the good idea in mind that we should be able to select the difficulty/starting enemy levels when jumping into endless missions, because I still don't like the idea of having to play for long periods of time to reach levels I find actually challenging and engaging.

[(XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE]

1 hour ago, so_many_watermelons said:

It's not really being treated special, it's just getting a worthwhile amount of reward for playing longer and against such an infinitely scaling difficulty. I can't see how that's so terrible. Not everybody cares about bragging rights on the crappy leaderboards nobody really checks ingame. People who don't play so long will get the same amount they usually get for the same effort, while people who want to put in the considerably larger investment of time and effort can get an amount of in their reward. Sounds like a decent trade off to me, since while you're putting a lot of effort into playing at such high levels for maybe 20% extra of a resource per drop, someone else could be coasting by in a much easier game by extracting and starting over. Easy game, good rewards. Harder game, somewhat better rewards.

Nobody's getting alienated but those who want to feel like they are. When in reality, they can either try to follow suit and play longer/at higher levels, or not and simply not worry about being challenged, because they don't have to be.

I'm saying this with the good idea in mind that we should be able to select the difficulty/starting enemy levels when jumping into endless missions, because I still don't like the idea of having to play for long periods of time to reach levels I find actually challenging and engaging.

You and others like you always seem to forget this thing called Balance.

Unless this game had dedicated servers to mitigate the myriad of connection issues that plague this game STILL, staying in any mission past 20 minutes is simply not worth it, even if the drop tables get better the longer you go.

DE has already stated they don't want people playing like that.