[Suggestion] Turn "aim glide" into just "glide"

[Steel_Rook]

tl;dr Remove all zoom and scopes from all versions of Aim Glide.

Introduction:
While I like the new melee swapping mechanic, it brought up a topic I've been meaning to talk about for some time - Aim Glide. People seem to dislike losing their ability to "Aim Glide" with a melee weapon out, avoiding the annoying zoom that's usually attached to it. This got me wondering - why is that zoom even there in the first place? Clearly there's recognition that it's undesirable since mods exist to reduce it. It may be bias on my side, but I suspect that far more people use Aim Glide for its gliding component, rather than for the kind of long-range aerial marksmanship which might require additional zoom.

Suggestion:
I propose, then, that we entirely remove the zoom and scope aspects from Aim Glide entirely. We can retain the Aim part since I see no reason to not be able to fire while gliding - players would just have to shoot without the zoom. That, of course, orphans mods like Overview and Broad Eye which currently reduce Aim Glide zoom levels - can reduce no zoom. To fix this, I propose repurposing those mods for the opposite function - to ADD zoom while Aim Gliding. I'm not naive enough to think nobody likes their Zoom Glide, so I don't see a problem retaining it optionally, after all. I'd also recommend disabling sniper scopes during Aim Glide, along with removing zoom. Those mods, then, could also be used to re-enable sniper scopes, as well.

As I know weapons have different aim values for firing from the hip and aiming, I'd recommend that Aim Glide still count as "aiming" even if it's not zoomed in. That means weapons fired from an Aim Glide would be "more accurate" and sniper rifles would use their scoped spread. The only thing lost would be the magnification.

To bring it back around to the new melee system, though, I'd also recommend not swapping weapons while Aim Gliding unless that weapon is used. With the latest patch, melee weapons auto-equip themselves when used, but un-equip themselves if you aim down sights. On the ground this is fine. In the air, however, I would recommend letting people glide with their melee weapons equipped even with the Aim Glide button held down. This would allow them to melee-block in the air (now an automatic function). However, to preserve easy weapon switching, the player's ranged weapon will still auto-equip if the player attempts to fire it while aim-gliding. This retains all functionalities mostly intact.

Summary:
Remove all zoom and scopes from Aim Glide, refactor "decrease zoom during aim glide" mods to increase zoom and enable scopes instead, don't swap from melee to gun during aim glide unless the player fires that gun.

[SDGDen]

how about just making a setting for it? i rather like my aim glide. another option would be to seperate the actions into "aiming" and "gliding". so you can still aim during your glide, but you can choose not to. (this would mean the glide function gets turned to a different key.)

although i can see why "aim to swap" in midair might be annoying.

[Steel_Rook]

18 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

how about just making a setting for it? i rather like my aim glide. another option would be to seperate the actions into "aiming" and "gliding". so you can still aim during your glide, but you can choose not to. (this would mean the glide function gets turned to a different key.)

I wouldn't be opposed to an option, though that would entirely take aim glide zoom mods out of the game.

A new key might be interesting, though a brand new keybind is unlikely. Controller users have already complained (including to me) about it in the past. I wonder if gliding by holding jump while in the air might work... Do you see any real issues with this? Anything that it can interfere with or be mistaken for? Hmm...

[Hobie-wan]

This could mostly fix the problem with the exodia contagion change requiring aim glide as well. At least it would for the way I was using it.

[SDGDen]

19 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I wouldn't be opposed to an option, though that would entirely take aim glide zoom mods out of the game.

A new key might be interesting, though a brand new keybind is unlikely. Controller users have already complained (including to me) about it in the past. I wonder if gliding by holding jump while in the air might work... Do you see any real issues with this? Anything that it can interfere with or be mistaken for? Hmm...

hold jump makes sense, but that'd mean you could only do it after a doublejump... unless you make it like how the sprint/roll button works where tap = in-air jump and hold = glide (unless in-air jump has been used, then it just turns into glide). it'd probably be annoying for a couple months for a lot of players because muscle memory, but it might be better in the long run.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

hold jump makes sense, but that'd mean you could only do it after a doublejump... unless you make it like how the sprint/roll button works where tap = in-air jump and hold = glide (unless in-air jump has been used, then it just turns into glide). it'd probably be annoying for a couple months for a lot of players because muscle memory, but it might be better in the long run.

Yeah, I did consider double jump as a potential problem, but I figured the Sprint/Roll mechanic could apply there. Tap to double-jump, hold to glide. This has the benefit of not auto-swapping out of a melee weapon or triggering aim zoom while still allowing the player to aim anyway, plus it seems a bit more intuitive on principle. Gliding and jumping are - to me at least - a lot closer in terms of intuitive functionality than gliding and aiming. It's also how a lot of games have handled this in the past. I remember Darksiders had a double jump and a glide, though in that case you NEEDED the second jump. I believe Ori and the Blind Forest did glide similarly - hold jump after you've exhausted your jumps.

Oh, and a bit of a bonus - putting Aim Glide on jump would make wall latching easier. I often have issues wall-latching because I hit aim a bit too far from the wall. This causes my character to glide instead of latching. Having those two on separate controls might be nice.

[SDGDen]

56 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Oh, and a bit of a bonus - putting Aim Glide on jump would make wall latching easier. I often have issues wall-latching because I hit aim a bit too far from the wall. This causes my character to glide instead of latching. Having those two on separate controls might be nice.

actually... what would happen to wallrunning then? thats done by holding jump... i guess wall-latch could go to the sneak key? since that makes a lot more sense.

[Teljaxx]

I would love this. One of my favorite things about the Baza is that it actually zooms out a bit when you aim glide. Having a wider FOV while flying around trying to line up moving shots is nice, so I definitely wouldn't mind if this always happened.

7 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

actually... what would happen to wallrunning then? thats done by holding jump... i guess wall-latch could go to the sneak key? since that makes a lot more sense.

Crouch to wall latch would be nice, too. It is annoying when you try to aim glide near a wall, only to find yourself stuck to it because you were just a bit too close. Plus, you could then choose whether you wanted to aim while on the wall, instead of being forced to, like now.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

actually... what would happen to wallrunning then? thats done by holding jump... i guess wall-latch could go to the sneak key? since that makes a lot more sense.

It is? I always thought it was done by tapping jump, rather than holding it. I don't wall run a terrible lot (because most tilesets have decorative elements on their walls which trip it up). Either way, though, holding jump would cause a glide, then transition to a wall run near a wall, then back to a glide depending on where you're aiming. Admittedly, this proposal is a spur-of-the-moment proposal, so it might hold a few pitfalls I'm not thinking of right now.

 

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

Crouch to wall latch would be nice, too. It is annoying when you try to aim glide near a wall, only to find yourself stuck to it because you were just a bit too close. Plus, you could then choose whether you wanted to aim while on the wall, instead of being forced to, like now.

That too, yeah. I've had that happen on multiple occasions, wondering why I wasn't gliding. Turns out I'd attempted to glide near a wall and just stuck to it. I'm fine with Wall Latch being an entirely separate key, as well, though I don't know about "sneak." DE talked about refactoring the Crouch key into a sneak key, and crouch is often used for "mid air sliding." Which - now that I've brought it up - is honestly kind of really odd to do and tends to bypass the "high drop" animation a bit too easily, so I can envision that being taken away. We're getting a bit off-topic, though.

Generally speaking, I'm in agreement that movement abilities ought to not be tied to the gunplay keys, but rather be entirely separate. Wall latch in particular could do to be separate from Aim, because the aim zoom actually gets in the way of using it for mobility. In a lot of cases, I'll climb one wall, latch so I can turn around, then bounce off the wall to jump onto something else. The heavy zoom slows down my mouse pan and makes it harder to tell what I'm jumping at, where a quick un-zoomed mouse flick would have helped. So having a means of gliding and latching SEPARATE from aiming while doing it would be nice, AND also help address issues with trying to do those things while wielding a melee weapon.

[SaiKrithik]

On 2019-03-08 at 9:53 PM, Steel_Rook said:

...

Summary:
Remove all zoom and scopes from Aim Glide, refactor "decrease zoom during aim glide" mods to increase zoom and enable scopes instead, don't swap from melee to gun during aim glide unless the player fires that gun.

This is what we need now, Honestly sometimes the aim part of the ai glide is so close, it sometimes blocks crosshair. I have no screenshots currently to show but it makes shooting while aim gliding precisely using bows or One shot non AoE weapons, difficult.

wish it was holding space in mid air for glide part

so Tap space = jump

Tap again, now when space bar is released within, say 0.1 second or less = Double jump

Tap again, Spacebar is held for or longer than, say 0.1 seconds = gliding

Now voila, you can have good visibility for movement, while also maintaining the mobility. You can also use RMB to aim during the new gliding maneuver, since it is now an independent key.

 

Now to address wall running issue:

On 2019-03-09 at 8:30 PM, SupremeDutchGamer said:

actually... what would happen to wallrunning then? thats done by holding jump... i guess wall-latch could go to the sneak key? since that makes a lot more sense.

On 2019-03-09 at 10:17 PM, Steel_Rook said:

It is? I always thought it was done by tapping jump, rather than holding it. I don't wall run a terrible lot (because most tilesets have decorative elements on their walls which trip it up). Either way, though, holding jump would cause a glide, then transition to a wall run near a wall, then back to a glide depending on where you're aiming. Admittedly, this proposal is a spur-of-the-moment proposal, so it might hold a few pitfalls I'm not thinking of right now.

 

Wall running:

Now this is also done by holding space, but it would trigger only when jumping off a wall and staying there, so if you want to bullet jump away from a wall using the new method, you press a back key (S) to move away from the wall

Or you would wall run if you do W + Space, jumping on a wall not moving elsewhere (which means not using any movement key during the gap between first wall jump and the holding spacebar) so the game understands you are going to do a wall run.

To sum up, it would be lot of convenient if aim glide is separated. If the aim and glide aspect be independent of each other, it would not be too much obstructing the view and crosshair (it happens sometimes while aim gliding, especially with high zoom weapons).

[TheMostFrench]

I would like just like it if aim gliding didn't bring up the sniper scope on sniper weapons. It makes them harder to use for indoor missions.

[BDMblue]

Sounds good put it in.

[NinjaZeku]

On 2019-03-08 at 5:23 PM, Steel_Rook said:

I would recommend letting people glide with their melee weapons equipped even with the Aim Glide button held down. This would allow them to melee-block in the air (now an automatic function). However, to preserve easy weapon switching, the player's ranged weapon will still auto-equip if the player attempts to fire it while aim-gliding. This retains all functionalities mostly intact.

Alas, mostly is not fully :P

Like, if I want to use a Secondary Fire function on my gun, this would not let me do that
unless I first fire a regular shot / manually cycle through my weapons.

But I do like the idea in general, so add it as an option and I think everyone walks away happy, or at least no less happy than before.

[lemonforest]

A method to switch to free aim mode should be doable. It would have the same aim penalties for hip firing scoped weapons however.

[Drasiel]

On 2019-03-09 at 4:08 AM, SupremeDutchGamer said:

hold jump makes sense, but that'd mean you could only do it after a doublejump... unless you make it like how the sprint/roll button works where tap = in-air jump and hold = glide (unless in-air jump has been used, then it just turns into glide). it'd probably be annoying for a couple months for a lot of players because muscle memory, but it might be better in the long run.

This would cause huge problems with toggle run. Toggle run is activated by holding the run key. It's already a massive issue with drift maneuvers in railjack which use the hold run button to trigger. It's so bad I can't even use drift maneuvers because the input gets confused about whether I want to run, drift, or stop running and the game just randomly picks one. 

[SaiKrithik]

On 2019-03-09 at 5:38 PM, SupremeDutchGamer said:

hold jump makes sense, but that'd mean you could only do it after a doublejump... unless you make it like how the sprint/roll button works where tap = in-air jump and hold = glide (unless in-air jump has been used, then it just turns into glide). it'd probably be annoying for a couple months for a lot of players because muscle memory, but it might be better in the long run.

Jump release can help. So if they code it as "on press and release key second time without delay = double jump, else press key alone = glide"

[SaiKrithik]

On 2021-02-08 at 12:23 AM, Drasiel said:

This would cause huge problems with toggle run. Toggle run is activated by holding the run key. It's already a massive issue with drift maneuvers in railjack which use the hold run button to trigger. It's so bad I can't even use drift maneuvers because the input gets confused about whether I want to run, drift, or stop running and the game just randomly picks one. 

No he meant, them attached to the key as tap/ hold  for two different actions to put like how shift key is used as roll/ sprint already, now we use space bar as jump/ glide

[Aesthier]

Simply add the "option" to remove the zoom portion of Aim gliding through a toggle setting in the Options menu.

It also gets around the need to create new keybindings.

^ That would be enough for me.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Aesthier

[Steel_Rook]

15 hours ago, Aesthier said:

Simply add the "option" to remove the zoom portion of Aim gliding through a toggle setting in the Options menu. It also gets around the need to create new keybindings. That would be enough for me.

Would be enough for me, as well, but there's a problem with this. DE already have a number of "-zoom while aim gliding" mods which they'd need to either redesign or scrap. It feels like there's a single stubborn person at DE who stonewalls all attempts at QoL and can only be compromised with if said QoL has some kind of build cost - mods, Arcanes, Helminth infusions, etc.

The reason I favour separating the systems is it would be a systemic solution. It would allow people to glide, aim in the or glide AND aim in the air without tying systems together against our will. It should also help with the currently very buggy aerial autoblock which forces us into a glide we can't stop.