Rivens Support Immoral Exploitative Tactics

[Lobosandia]

I'm really not one to chime in on game forums, but I've recently been unnerved at the state of affairs with Rivens in general. I don't usually care, but I am concerned that this could eventually affect people in real life. That sounds like an exaggeration, but Rivens are being taken way too seriously (the irony is not lost on me in this statement).

I want to point out the following issues with Rivens that I've noticed since prices have started becoming inflated over the course of a few months. I'm basing my opinions and observations on watching trade chat and just looking at player interactions with regards to this issue on the forums.

Rivens as a concept are great because they allow for some variation in your weapons if you decide to put some time into them. For example, I like using the Mios, but it's subpar without my riven. Likewise, my Okina probably wouldn't stand at higher levels without its riven. I love rivens because they let me use weapons I'm interested in, but realistically cannot use in the game.

However, they have turned from a fun concept into a point of controversy simply because they are the subject of exploitative practices by certain players. These players are manipulating the market through the following:

1. Introducing the idea of scarcity in certain rivens, despite the fact that they are actually extremely common.
   1. When I started on the Switch I had 0 rivens after moving my account from PC. Now I have ~29. They are not that easy to obtain, but over time they tend to pile up. I don't even do Sorties daily except when Nightwave requires it. Literally millions of people play this game, which could potentially mean there are thousands of Rubico rivens laying around.
2. Taking advantage of the idea that they are the "end all be all" of the game. They are what take a good item (like the Rubico, Vectis, etc.) and make it "God Tier".
   1. Based on reactions to the recent disposition changes with players saying things such as "My Rubico is worthless now thanks to my riven getting worse!" You don't -NEED- a Riven, but people are driven to think so. The exploitative traders take advantage of this and sell at exorbitant prices.
3. Taking advantage of lack of market/riven concept transparency.
   1. This is the worst part of the whole ordeal just because trade chat, the forums, and third party websites are not helpful in determining prices. A group of people can easily spam the trade chat with bots to gradually increase prices over time. People will see the increasing prices and jump on the bandwagon. This is something you only need to glance in trade chat to witness. A group of 10 people just needs to rotate multi-line price posts to dominate the chat and set the standard.
   2. DE also needs to better communicate the mutability of Rivens ESPECIALLY in game. The worst part of Rivens is that there is no clear indication that stats will change. This is communicated most often through other media, but obviously these communications fall on deaf ears and if the last disposition change is any example, people think their rivens (and by extension their guns) become worthless.
   3. I have been the subject of minor intimidation tactics by some of the aforementioned people. At least twice when trying to sell a riven (I have tried to sell maybe 5 in the past 3 months) on both PC and NSW I have been bombarded by players aggressively challenging me on the price I either ask for or the price I post. They use these tactics to intimidate the player from participating in the market.

 

Honestly, a lot of this feels like much ado about nothing because, in the end, what people do with their plat (and ultimately their money) is their business, but I'm arguing from a moral standpoint and pointing out an error in a game concept that is being blown out of proportion based on what was intended.

People are essentially spending their money on a many-layered RNG gamble that is being exploited by third parties that have seen the errors in the gamble. This is all outside of what I have been lead to believe was the reason behind implementing Rivens in the first place, and therefore Rivens are not being used based on their design concept.

I know actions are being taken to address this issue, but they aren't coming fast enough. Players are often saying that they don't want to use rivens, which is ultimately helping the aforementioned exploitative tactics by locking out people who would have otherwise added supply to the market.

Additionally, there is something to be said about these riven sellers who are amassing huge quantities of platinum. I can only hope that they only amass this platinum to EZ mode the game or to buy their own overpriced rivens because otherwise it's strange to need so much platinum.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Well... What else is new?

[Lobosandia]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Well... What else is new?

I agree, this comes up too often. :/

I decided to post because I haven't been able to find recent feedback threads on this though, just a bunch in General Discussion which I've been lead to believe DE doesn't pay as much attention to.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Lobosandia
Clarification

[(NSW)Belaptir]

This is a thing I've talked about so many times. It's inmoral that some rivens reach prices such as 6k platinum. And what's worse is that DE is not doing anything about it. Everybody complains about predatory practices of companies like EA, but hey, a game in which there is a single digital item worth hundreds of dollars/euros it's fine because "it's the free market". No, it's not ok. It's not ok because someone had to earn that money, and so many times, the person buying the riven could not be aware of the amount of real money they are paying for it.

I've said this many times, but seems nobody wants it. Rivens should be tradeable only while they are veiled. The moment you unveil them, they become untradeable.

Edited April 10, 2019 by (NSW)Belaptir

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, Lobosandia said:

I agree, this comes up too often. 😕

I decided to post because I haven't been able to find recent feedback threads on this though, just a bunch in General Discussion which I've been lead to believe DE doesn't pay as much attention to.

Well, in any case, and I don't know if you got the news, DE is working on a public riven tracker to be an official alternative to what Semlar had. So hopefully a step in the right direction, by providing good information on riven trades.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

This is a thing I've talked about so many times. It's inmoral that some rivens reach prices such as 6k platinum. And what's worse is that DE is not doing anything about it. Everybody complains about predatory practices of companies like EA, but hey, a game in which there is a single digital item worth hundreds of dollars/euros it's fine because "it's the free market". No, it's not ok. It's not ok because someone had to earn that money, and so many times, the person buying the riven could not be aware of the amount of real money they are paying for it.

I've said this many times, but seems nobody wants it. Rivens should be tradeable only while they are veiled. The moment you unveil them, they become untradeable.

Meanwhile I'm here trying to be as fair as possible, and some people call me an overpricer. Some context, of course. While I don't see any Kitgun riven being advertised on TC in PS4 for less that 400p (not GRolls, those are 800p+), I price mine at 80-120p (I also do not sell GRolls, but unrolls). This is the case for pretty much every riven, it doesn't mean I won't go lower, but trying not to rip people off and being called that is not nice. What I mean mostly is that yes, Rivens are absurdly expensive most of the time, but sometimes people do want these magnificent, highly demanded rivens, for almost free, if not really free. I also hope the riven tracker helps me back up whatever is "fair" at any given time. Because scammers, they exist both on the selling side and the buying side.

Edited April 10, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[Lobosandia]

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Well, in any case, and I don't know if you got the news, DE is working on a public riven tracker to be an official alternative to what Semlar had. So hopefully a step in the right direction, by providing good information on riven trades.

I hope this does resolve the issues overall, though I doubt it unless it's a user friendly in-game interface.

I didn't like Semlar's site because it didn't provide great transparency, but it was a good start. For example, you can't see how bad inflation got over time because you can't navigate past a certain time window when you see price trends.

[Lobosandia]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Meanwhile I'm here trying to be as fair as possible, and some people call me an overpricer. Some context, of course. While I don't see any Kitgun riven being advertised on TC in PS4 for less that 400p (not GRolls, those are 800p+), I price mine at 80-120p (I also do not sell GRolls, but unrolls). This is the case for pretty much every riven, it doesn't mean I won't go lower, but trying not to rip people off and being called that is not nice. What I mean mostly is that yes, Rivens are absurdly expensive most of the time, but sometimes people do want these magnificent, highly demanded rivens, for almost free, if not really free. I also hope the riven tracker helps me back up whatever is "fair" at any given time. Because scammers, they exist both on the selling side and the buying side.

Overall the Riven market is awful because of this. There is no set value for any rivens at all. That was my point: Rivens have NO value apart from what the buyer/seller agree upon. It's like putting a value on a college degree.

[(PSN)Page8988]

2 hours ago, Lobosandia said:

Overall the Riven market is awful because of this. There is no set value for any rivens at all. That was my point: Rivens have NO value apart from what the buyer/seller agree upon. It's like putting a value on a college degree.

No kidding. Most of the difficult trading experiences I've had involved rivens in some way. Nothing like making an offer that's quite fair for an average-ish riven and getting cussed at up and down because "That's a joke for this GROLL you ####### noob!!!" Except it's a modest but decent riven, not an amazing roll, but eh. And when you ask what they think is fair, they say some insane amount that's like 5x what I offered. Or just swear at me more. Yeah, no.

Riven trading is the most toxic experience most players run into. It's second to Conclave, but most players avoid Conclave anyway.

[Lobosandia]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Page8988 said:

No kidding. Most of the difficult trading experiences I've had involved rivens in some way. Nothing like making an offer that's quite fair for an average-ish riven and getting cussed at up and down because "That's a joke for this GROLL you ####### noob!!!" Except it's a modest but decent riven, not an amazing roll, but eh. And when you ask what they think is fair, they say some insane amount that's like 5x what I offered. Or just swear at me more. Yeah, no.

Riven trading is the most toxic experience most players run into. It's second to Conclave, but most players avoid Conclave anyway.

 

I always have this lovely exchange to use an example of how skeezy it can be. I ended up not getting it just because I didnt want to support him. I would have totally bought the riven for 100p. He obviously had no 500p offer.

I dont remember what the stats were, but it wasnt bad, but wasnt amazing. This was over 2 months ago before it became a bad issue.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Lobosandia
Added time conversation happened

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

It's funny how you mention riven disposition nerf cause a lot of players to complain. Tell those same players to sell their riven for the price they bought it for and they refuse. Not becuase no one is willing to buy the riven, but they rather have a buff to the weapon they're comfortable with.

[Atsia]

6 hours ago, Lobosandia said:

Overall the Riven market is awful because of this. There is no set value for any rivens at all. That was my point: Rivens have NO value apart from what the buyer/seller agree upon. It's like putting a value on a college degree.

Now that's not something against Rivens. The entire intention DE had for trading is that prices are determined between players.

[Lobosandia]

1 hour ago, Atsia said:

Now that's not something against Rivens. The entire intention DE had for trading is that prices are determined between players.

That's what the comment you quoted says. I'm arguing that the prices are high because of market manipulation which goes outside of supply and demand.

I'm arguing the market is bad because there is no transparency that allows for immoral tactics.

[Test-995]

It could be better if they made every riven purchasable with 200-600pt or something.

[Benour]

Just make kuva easier to farm so the god tier rolls are more common and cost less. Id rather buy riven for up to Xk than actually trying to roll it myself. Its better to farm eidolons/prime sets (and get guaranteed reward/plat) than grinding kuva whole week get like 300k and then roll riven 100 times and still get nothing or half decent stats (not perfect - useless trash for me = endo - wasted my time - disappointed - Alt+F4 - play different game until i feel like playing WF again). This happened many times btw. 

Make "god tiers or even top tiers" more frequent and prices will drop. 

Yeah not gonna happen, cause rivens = money for DE, there are lots of wallet warriors who just throw money on theyr monitors and dont care about paying 16k plat for god rolled rubico. 

[(XBOX)E Da Richard]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Page8988 said:

No kidding. Most of the difficult trading experiences I've had involved rivens in some way. Nothing like making an offer that's quite fair for an average-ish riven and getting cussed at up and down because "That's a joke for this GROLL you ####### noob!!!" Except it's a modest but decent riven, not an amazing roll, but eh. And when you ask what they think is fair, they say some insane amount that's like 5x what I offered. Or just swear at me more. Yeah, no.

Riven trading is the most toxic experience most players run into. It's second to Conclave, but most players avoid Conclave anyway.

TC has always been cancerous, that’s old news. After some tool does this sort of thing to me  I ask him “you mad bro” and then block him. 9/10 times they’ll leave Xbox live hate mail. So troll till they leave a message that when reported will result in a Xbox communications ban that also keeps them from posting anything in WF chats. My little WF mini game I like to play when I get one of those ppl.

9 hours ago, Lobosandia said:

That's what the comment you quoted says. I'm arguing that the prices are high because of market manipulation which goes outside of supply and demand.

I'm arguing the market is bad because there is no transparency that allows for immoral tactics.

 

17 hours ago, Lobosandia said:

Overall the Riven market is awful because of this. There is no set value for any rivens at all. That was my point: Rivens have NO value apart from what the buyer/seller agree upon. It's like putting a value on a college degree.

Nor should there be a “set” price. Can’t sell something for a price that nobody’s willing to pay for. If you don’t like the deal don’t take it. Take your plat elsewhere. You see outrageous pricing on all kinds of items all day in TC.

“WTB Nekros 80p”, “WTS Rhino 500p”, “WTB (place item here) for 1/3rd of the avarage price”, “WTS (place item here) for 2-3x the avarage price”. All day every day. Sellers hate lowballers just as much as potential buyers hate sellers with ridiculous prices.   

Do the same thing you do when you see posts or offers like these, laugh at them or ignore it and move on.  Your not obligated to buy anything from anyone. Shop around, take your time. It might even take a few days to find the Riven you want at a price you can live with, but you’ll have less animosity and stress if you just relax, take your time and realize you will have to deal with TC sleaze regardless if/what your buying or selling, deal with it and move on.  

Edited April 11, 2019 by (XB1)YouBitePi11ows

[Lobosandia]

48 minutes ago, (XB1)YouBitePi11ows said:

TC has always been cancerous, that’s old news. After some tool does this sort of thing to me  I ask him “you mad bro” and then block him. 9/10 times they’ll leave Xbox live hate mail. So troll till they leave a message that when reported will result in a Xbox communications ban that also keeps them from posting anything in WF chats. My little WF mini game I like to play when I get one of those ppl.

 

Nor should there be a “set” price. Can’t sell something for a price that nobody’s willing to pay for. If you don’t like the deal don’t take it. Take your plat elsewhere. You see outrageous pricing on all kinds of items all day in TC.

“WTB Nekros 80p”, “WTS Rhino 500p”, “WTB (place item here) for 1/3rd of the avarage price”, “WTS (place item here) for 2-3x the avarage price”. All day every day. Sellers hate lowballers just as much as potential buyers hate sellers with ridiculous prices.   

Do the same thing you do when you see posts or offers like these, laugh at them or ignore it and move on.  Your not obligated to buy anything from anyone. Shop around, take your time. It might even take a few days to find the Riven you want at a price you can live with, but you’ll have less animosity and stress if you just relax, take your time and realize you will have to deal with TC sleaze regardless if/what your buying or selling, deal with it and move on.  

I think you lost the point of my original argument. I'm arguing that trade chat allows for creeping inflation that goes against the actual worth of the item in question. I think there was definitely a coordinated effort to inflate prices to where we have the issue of horrendously overpriced trade chat overall.

This is based on the argument that there will ALWAYS be someone that will be willing to buy at an exorbitant price (referred to as "whales") because they don't care about money; however, this creates an expectation that you can sell at that huge price and other people jump on board, creating inflation and excluding other buyers unless they participate in the inflation. Most will opt out entirely, reducing supply and creating perceived scarcity.

The only reason this situation is possible is because the market is essentially a scrolling ticker. I don't think there should be a set price on anything, only that measures need to be in place to combat market inflation that's being created artificially.

I'm not arguing for any kind of market intervention where DE regulates players. I only want the market to be more visible. Otherwise, there are issues arise such as the huge price discrepancies between buyers and sellers. Buyers want to make money and sellers want to save money, but there's no basis for market value other than perception of the two parties who are biased based on their position in the market.

 

Also, on your point:

 

"Do the same thing you do when you see posts or offers like these, laugh at them or ignore it and move on.  Your not obligated to buy anything from anyone. Shop around, take your time. It might even take a few days to find the Riven you want at a price you can live with, but you’ll have less animosity and stress if you just relax, take your time and realize you will have to deal with TC sleaze regardless if/what your buying or selling, deal with it and move on."

That's so inefficient and time consuming, not to mention boring if you consider you have to be in a relay or orbiter to be on trade chat at all. This is a game and trading should be simple and easy, but instead you make it sound like shopping for a car.

 

[Gawizard]

I feel ya mate. Rivens are Great thing but in its current state, its more of a gamble with your time. worst part is that selling stuff thats rather unpopular would have you get shamed by everyone for having ok prices because they want to low ball it. The Flipping game in the 'Riven Mafia' is a scumbag's dream; Buying rivens for 10 times less and selling them for 10 times more. this is exploiting newer riven traders. Wish they can change rivens to benefit non meta weapons (like the rubico [My favourite sniper before eidolons came and @%$(ed everything up}, amprex, Vectis and the Kohm) and give light to weapons that no one would ever use. There used to be a time when if i got a random riven, id go out of my way to get that weapon, build it for the riven and try to find an optimal build for it, i did it with the tonbo and now look what i have

Now id just endo them since there are some weapons that cant be saved.

[Gawizard]

also if DE nerfs the Tonbo or its disposition because of this build, i wouldnt be surprised. The new "anti-fun" thing is expected at the moment.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

9 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

I feel ya mate. Rivens are Great thing but in its current state, its more of a gamble with your time. worst part is that selling stuff thats rather unpopular would have you get shamed by everyone for having ok prices because they want to low ball it. The Flipping game in the 'Riven Mafia' is a scumbag's dream; Buying rivens for 10 times less and selling them for 10 times more. this is exploiting newer riven traders. Wish they can change rivens to benefit non meta weapons (like the rubico [My favourite sniper before eidolons came and @%$(ed everything up}, amprex, Vectis and the Kohm) and give light to weapons that no one would ever use. There used to be a time when if i got a random riven, id go out of my way to get that weapon, build it for the riven and try to find an optimal build for it, i did it with the tonbo and now look what i have
 

Now id just endo them since there are some weapons that cant be saved.

Riven trading 101: "All the rivens I buy must be under 50p. All the rivens I sell are worth 600p+. Weapons, rolls, etc don't matter. They are priced like that because I'm the one buying/selling, and I'm special"

[Gawizard]

Its sad that its true.

[SteelOverseer666]

2 hours ago, (XB1)YouBitePi11ows said:

 deal with it and move on.  

No.

People are done laying down and taking this crap from the people who exploit the market and the people who enable those exploiters.

I suspect anyone who advocates "just dealing with it" is probably someone who profits from the current system.

Edited April 11, 2019 by SteelOverseer666

[Gawizard]

22 hours ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

This is a thing I've talked about so many times. It's inmoral that some rivens reach prices such as 6k platinum. And what's worse is that DE is not doing anything about it. Everybody complains about predatory practices of companies like EA, but hey, a game in which there is a single digital item worth hundreds of dollars/euros it's fine because "it's the free market". No, it's not ok. It's not ok because someone had to earn that money, and so many times, the person buying the riven could not be aware of the amount of real money they are paying for it.

I've said this many times, but seems nobody wants it. Rivens should be tradeable only while they are veiled. The moment you unveil them, they become untradeable.

Honestly that would be bad for several reasons. Im thinking that if i ever get tired of using a riven (i had a kronen riven) i can just sell it to someone who would like it for a fair price rather than have it take up inventory space or waste it. I do support an untradable riven state though but it would have to be implemented in another way

[(NSW)Belaptir]

4 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

Honestly that would be bad for several reasons. Im thinking that if i ever get tired of using a riven (i had a kronen riven) i can just sell it to someone who would like it for a fair price rather than have it take up inventory space or waste it. I do support an untradable riven state though but it would have to be implemented in another way

Now that you mention it, yes, it might not be the best idea. So then, what about making riven tradeable only for another riven? When trading unveiled rivens, you can only trade 1:1 for other rivens. That way, someone who unveils a riven for a weapon they don't like, can trade it for another riven (veiled or unveiled), but only one. By doing this you also make all the riven worth the same. And also make that you will only roll rivens that you like and are willing to use.

If, after you used a riven (and presumably rolled it), you want to sell it, you know you can either get an unrolled one, or a riven for something that you actually want to use. In the end, rivens are not really rare, I mean, all rifle riven have the same chance to become a rubico or a burston, so a riven for a rubico costs so much because, since it's a free market, someone decided that the first one would cost that much because people use that weapon. But its value is not other than a fake scenario created by certain individuals in which they make people believe that a given riven is unique when it's not.

[Gawizard]

yep, Diamonds at face value are just crystals, something that you can make artificially, their price was bumped up artificially too, same with rivens to an extent