Nerfing and buffing riven dispo based on popularity is a bad idea

[sergioakon2]

baza got nerfed, even supra,

 

yet prisma gorgon got buffed.  the difference btw this weapons is that gorgon can pull and easy extra 20k-30k dps, or more.

 

because no one uses prisma gorgon. i mean damn i get punished for using a good looking weapon like baza? but i don't get for using one of the ugliest weapons in the game gorgon?. alright.

 

riven dispo should be balanced based on how strong the weapon is with one.

 

game should be fun, but instead it's a gamble, the patch comes, oh here is riven changes, oh buff screams happily, oh nerf cries. it hurts, it hurts so much

it's even more stupid when you compare baza to gorgon, 

 

[redkunaz]

I understand they wanting us to use diffrent weapons. but some people only like assault rifles. others shotguns. and sometimes we only like that one weapon. I mean to use most rivens we need to be like mr 10 or 15, by then i'm sure we already tried a lot of weapons.

 but when someone pays 1000 plat for a riven... or when rivens take forever sometimes to roll decent stats, 3500 kuva might not look like a big deal if you have a smeeta and resourse booster, but for many it's a lot. 

If decent rivens costed like 200p max, or maybe 500p , i would accept all this dispo changes

 

it's really weird, like broken war, prisma skana , and other swords , aren't dispo 5, when zaws exist and make using other swords useless. because popularity? why?

Edited May 8, 2019 by redkunaz

[Loza03]

Quote

We are also making one slight change based on feedback from our last Workshop: past Disposition changes have been primarily based on weapon usage stats, where more popular weapons received lower Dispositions, and vice versa. These numbers were adjusted by hand where we deemed appropriate, but players have suggested we should take it one step further - going forward, we have compiled our own internal ranking of weapon power levels, which will be referenced in addition to usage stats to reach our final numbers. As further tweaks bring us closer to “ideal” Disposition numbers, changes should become less drastic, reinforced by our internal rankings providing a solid baseline.

Usage is no longer the deciding factor. It is an element, but DE are now doing it on an internal power scale.

[Rhyandra]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Loza03:

Usage is no longer the deciding factor. It is an element, but DE are now doing it on an internal power scale.

And you honestly believe that? Sad.

[Loza03]

Holy forum glitch batman. I posted an entirely different comment and it repeated my first

Edited May 8, 2019 by Loza03
Forum Glitch.

[Loza03]

21 minutes ago, Karu-QW said:

And you honestly believe that? Sad.

Yeah. Why shouldn't I? That's the line of reasoning that's lead to anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers.

DE don't have a history of being actively malicious to their playerbase. They don't even have a history of being money-grubbing A**hats. WF could make them way more money if they used more predatory practices, but they don't - that alone is enough to clear them of suspicion in my eyes.

What they do have a history of is not being as in-tune with balancing as they could and maybe should be. Note I didn't say anything about the quality of that interal power scale.

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

[Rhyandra]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

Yeah. Why shouldn't I? That's the line of reasoning that's lead to anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers.

DE don't have a history of being actively malicious to their playerbase. They don't even have a history of being money-grubbing A**hats. WF could make them way more money if they used more predatory practices, but they don't - that alone is enough to clear them of suspicion in my eyes.

What they do have a history of is not being as in-tune with balancing as they could and maybe should be. Note I didn't say anything about the quality of that interal power scale.

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

Oh okay. So you wanna tell me that the Aklex, Panthera, Angstrum, Baza, Stradavar, Lato, (Ak)vasto and Akjagara are all overpowered weapons that deserved the recent dispo nerfs even though nobody uses them? 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Karu-QW

[Loza03]

14 minutes ago, Karu-QW said:

Oh okay. So you wanna tell me that the Aklex, Panthera, Angstrum, Baza, Stradavar, Lato, (Ak)vasto and Akjagara are all overpowered weapons that deserved the recent dispo nerfs even though nobody uses them? 

What part of my post indicates I'm defending the choices DE made?

I'm defending them as a non-malicious company. Not as some perfect saviour without flaw.

[Xolgys]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Karu-QW:

Oh okay. So you wanna tell me that the Aklex, Panthera, Angstrum, Baza, Stradavar, Lato, (Ak)vasto and Akjagara are all overpowered weapons that deserved the recent dispo nerfs even though nobody uses them? 

aklex, panthera and angstrum didnt.

akjagara and akvasto with the right riven are slash/viral monsters, now as before. the nerf does reduce that ofc but it doesnt make them any worse weapons overall.

lato..no clue, dont have it dont use it.

stradavar....no big deal, still a good weapon even with a +recoil riven and the nerf wasnt too big. baza doesnt really matter, it still needs hunter munitions later and without more multishot its really unreliable anyway, aside of the meh status chance and IPS distribution. might as well use soma with a riven now, the difference in these 2 is really minimal now, both similar issues anyway and paper dps alone only matters vs lower enemies anyway but these die even without a riven so there is that dilemma i guess~

overall i would say its a mixed bag. i dont understand the aklex, panthera and angstrum nerfs myself since i never see them and aside of panthera i dont even use them anymore myself, panthera here and there but still...strange decision to nerf these, especially since their performance isnt really impressive in comparison to others. the rest imo doesnt matter too much or is fine for balance's sake.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Xydeth

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

My question is this: Did the riven disposition made these weapons unusable? Or was there just a small drop in perfermance a few more round would still kill the enemies. All the sniper rifles got disp nerfs. People are still using them for eidolon hunting. The nerf wasn't that bad. Hell, just remember that it should be worse. Going by how DE wants weapons to be balance for popularity NOT performance.

[000l000]

My only concern so far with popularity being a factor in riven disposition is that DE are deciding only by themselves what will be popular or not. They leave any prime weapon at 5 disposition, it becomes popular. Then they nerf it, it becomes less popular...

Truth is that DE should revise their riven disposition policy asap, hence creating new rivens when prime or variant weapons are created cause the rivens main purpose is to buff underpowered weapons first, which isn't relevant anymore when prime versions are implemented.

Thus they'd stop the speculative bubbles we see every three months, when everyone is stocking rivens, waiting for the next prime announcement. DE only mistake so far has been to keep 5 disposition on brand new prime variants. When the riven nerf hits, it also nerf the first version, which is nonsensical and should be fixed at some point.

[Arcira]

I don´t like the whole concept of rivens as compensation. They are good for keeping player engaged with a new system with this random stats and kuva farm stuff. But that´s all they should be.

In other words I think they need to remove disposition entirely and add a better way to improve old weapons. Like some form of weapon specific upgrade. Not something like a mod that consumes capacity but a straight up base stat buff like reaktors and catalysts do with mod slots. And voila now you have new rewards and balance updates in one step.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Arcira

[ShaKaL95]

Snipers got nerfed because they are popular in eidolon hunting,yet nobody uses them outside that because the tilesets are not made for snipers,they were tailored for AR/Shotguns,and their zoom hampers players. Possibly they nerfed them because they introduced Archwing rivens? Still would not make too much sense,you can 1 shot eidolons with a well charged Void Strike.

[Xolgys]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb ShaKaL95:

Snipers got nerfed because they are popular in eidolon hunting,yet nobody uses them outside that because the tilesets are not made for snipers,they were tailored for AR/Shotguns,and their zoom hampers players. Possibly they nerfed them because they introduced Archwing rivens? Still would not make too much sense,you can 1 shot eidolons with a well charged Void Strike.

i do use them and they are more than just usable. lanka getting "abused" to only hunt eidolons before rubico prime was always overshadowing the madness gas/electric lanka is and in all honesty i wonder how many people use aoe stuff like ignis when a well placed lanka shot insta wipes a group of lv 100 enemies no matter their armor and whatnot, unbuffed or anything.

snipers have the advantage of combo counter too and whilst nerfing their rivens further is bad at this point because especially multishot values are already reaching questionable amounts i dont think the nerf was too bad. people hype lanka and especially rubico, vectis is nothing to laugh about too and vulkar wraith is great but rarely used so it still has a very good but honestly appropriate disposition. nerfing vulkar wraith dispo would be highly questionable too but even generally i think the sniper rivens overall are at a "fine" spot right now considering their power/usage/hype. personally i would differentiate more between rubico, lanka and vectis since these share a similar disposition, 0.85 aside of rubico with 0.8 and give lanka 0.95 since its charge is a killer for some people and a downside actually. vectis can be really rapid fire so its fine all things considered even with the not-too-great multishot values on average.

[marelooke]

 

On 2019-05-08 at 12:18 PM, sergioakon2 said:

baza got nerfed, even supra,

 

yet prisma gorgon got buffed.  the difference btw this weapons is that gorgon can pull and easy extra 20k-30k dps, or more.

 

because no one uses prisma gorgon. i mean damn i get punished for using a good looking weapon like baza? but i don't get for using one of the ugliest weapons in the game gorgon?. alright.

 

riven dispo should be balanced based on how strong the weapon is with one.

 

game should be fun, but instead it's a gamble, the patch comes, oh here is riven changes, oh buff screams happily, oh nerf cries. it hurts, it hurts so much

it's even more stupid when you compare baza to gorgon,  

  

And this, folks, is one of the arguments that was brought up when Riven mods were initially introduced.

Riven mods were never intended as a way to balance weapons, they were meant as a way to throttle weapon use (or popularity, if you prefer), at least among those players that actually use Riven mods. This was clear from the get go and DE even basically said as much.

Riven mods were never really about weapon balance.

If a weapon is OP then messing with its Riven mods isn't going to really change that. It might become slightly less OP, or slightly more OP, but only proper rebalancing can fix real issues. But since DE couldn't keep up with that they invented this RNG band-aid that is Riven mods.

And while Riven mods can take a decent weapon and make it actually good (eg. Kohm) by patching up some weaknesses one might wonder that if the Riven is pretty much required to get a weapon to perform well then why it doesn't get rebalanced properly to not need the Riven anymore (and how many weapons like that are there anyway?)

Edited May 9, 2019 by marelooke

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

6 minutes ago, marelooke said:

 

And this, folks, is one of the arguments that was brought up when Riven mods were initially introduced.

Riven mods were never intended as a way to balance weapons, they were meant as a way to throttle weapon use (or popularity, if you prefer), at least among those players that actually use Riven mods. This was clear from the get go and DE pretty much even said as much.

Riven mods were never really about weapon balance.

If a weapon is OP then messing with its Riven mods isn't going to really change that. It might become slightly less OP, or slightly more OP, but only proper rebalancing can fix real issues. But since DE couldn't keep up with that they invented this RNG band-aid that is Riven mods.

And while Riven mods can take a decent weapon and make it actually good (eg. Kohm) by patching up some weaknesses one might wonder that if the Riven is pretty much required to get a weapon to perform well then why it doesn't get rebalanced properly to not need the Riven anymore (and how many weapons like that are there anyway?)

Now if only DE actually tried balancing all their weapons accordingly as to not force us to stick with what is either considered meta or ridiculously powerful because of the riven system. Myself in general, I despise the riven system, too much RNG ingrained into it, and the riven market itself is one of the most inhospitable things to ever exist in the game. If DE attempted to balance damage mechanics and weaponry alongside armor scaling, this game could potentially be in a different state where rivens aren't theoretically necessary for a vast majority of weapons, that is but an impossible dream at this point though.

[ryvrdrgn14]

My question is if DE has a relatively good range for what is acceptable usage. If a weapon becomes nearly as popular as a current popular weapon, then wouldn't it be better to focus on the disposition of other kinds of rivens to boost up their usage as well instead of using it to knock a popular weapon down? I know people who have spent mad hours farming Kuva for their rolls. Would suck to be them if they had their riven nerfed.

 

You know how gamers hate having the stuff they earned taken away from them. That's just basic human nature though.

[ShaKaL95]

8 minutes ago, ryvrdrgn14 said:

My question is if DE has a relatively good range for what is acceptable usage. If a weapon becomes nearly as popular as a current popular weapon, then wouldn't it be better to focus on the disposition of other kinds of rivens to boost up their usage as well instead of using it to knock a popular weapon down? I know people who have spent mad hours farming Kuva for their rolls. Would suck to be them if they had their riven nerfed.

 

You know how gamers hate having the stuff they earned taken away from them. That's just basic human nature though.

Can relate to that, had a vectis riven in which i rolled 317 times,that is 1.1 mil kuva. When i got my actual decent roll, i said "I hope they won't nerf it again,i worked really hard for this" and yet it happened,and never played with it again,not because it is a bad weapon,it is a great one...it's just that the  kuva farming killed me from inside and playing with it brings a sour taste of hard work spoiled.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2019-05-08 at 7:04 AM, Karu-QW said:

Oh okay. So you wanna tell me that the Aklex, Panthera, Angstrum, Baza, Stradavar, Lato, (Ak)vasto and Akjagara are all overpowered weapons that deserved the recent dispo nerfs even though nobody uses them? 

If nobody uses them, then clearly DE isn't using popularity as the sole factor in dispo nerfs.

[redkunaz]

On 2019-05-08 at 2:58 PM, Loza03 said:

Yeah. Why shouldn't I? That's the line of reasoning that's lead to anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers.

DE don't have a history of being actively malicious to their playerbase. They don't even have a history of being money-grubbing A**hats. WF could make them way more money if they used more predatory practices, but they don't - that alone is enough to clear them of suspicion in my eyes.

What they do have a history of is not being as in-tune with balancing as they could and maybe should be. Note I didn't say anything about the quality of that interal power scale.

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

the op himself stated it, gorgon that was already strong has hell with hm, or without got buffed, baza and supra that are weaker nerfed. how does that make sense

a person spends hours , farming kuva so what they got gets destroyed.

Edited May 10, 2019 by redkunaz

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, redkunaz said:

the op himself stated it, gorgon that was already strong has hell with hm, or without got buffed, baza and supra that are weaker nerfed. how does that make sense

 

On 2019-05-08 at 3:21 PM, Loza03 said:

What part of my post indicates I'm defending the choices DE made?

I'm defending them as a non-malicious company. Not as some perfect saviour without flaw.