Scott Says The Stamina Bar Wasn't Relevant...

[Ced23Ric]

His answer was to add a system that hindered us so that we would notice the bar. My answer is to just get rid of it altogether.

If a system isn't relevant why force it to be? Do we really need a stamina bar?

 

I agree that the stamina is a forced mechanic that does not flow with the game - and the band aid mods are not a solution or foresight, they are on the same pile as the other unused mods, such as Warm Coat and Intruder.

[K_Shiro]

 ...2 warframe stamminamod slots...

 

I for one hated the idea of the aura mod slot too, so I'm highly against the idea of even more separate slots. Sorry, but I feel that would take out some tactical depth - you could put in those mods whatever happens, meaning there would be less things to plan out. If we follow this pattern, we would get a game that plays itself and there is no use for the player to think at all.

 

I agree that the stamina is a forced mechanic that does not flow with the game - and the band aid mods are not a solution or foresight, they are on the same pile as the other unused mods, such as Warm Coat and Intruder.

 

I disagree.

Having a stamina system forces you to plan your mod loadout with it in mind - I for one have to use speed and stamina mods for the moves I usually use - I just can't stand my Frost slow speed and stamina, I love that frame but love to move around walls in a speedy manner too. I know it sounds I would have it easier if the stamina system would disappear but I feel that would be a loss of previously mentioned depth.

____________  _ _  ____________

 

Edited September 19, 2013 by K_Shiro

[Justin_Case001]

you're missing the point, we're not talking about the current state, we're talking about how scott made it for a couple hours

 

you could run for 2-3 seconds then you had to wait 10+

Yeah.  I guess some people never knew about it.  My entire clan didn't play for those, what, like, 12-24 hours when the stamina was horrible.  They never knew about it, and still don't know.  I never told them, and I never will.  Why give them nightmares?

 

In fairness, for a game that touts mobility having a limitation on our mobility such as a stamina bar is a poor idea.

 

 

I agree, the stamina bar's relation to movement should be done away with.

 

 

However, in terms of blocking, parrying and dodging there should be a cost.

Yes.  This is the way to make stamina more relevant.  Make dodging and blocking more fun and useful mechanics that cost a large chunk of stamina.  Nerfing movement was never the answer.

[kaboomonme]

Agreed! Ninjas have great stamina anyways, they are conditioned to have a great endurance since they are, as you may know, ninjas! So yeah, ninjas that can't run, after 8 seconds, kinda of non-ninja :P

Ninjas have great stamina, yes.

 

When wearing a massive-&#! high-tech suit, carrying a massive glowing great-sword, a handheld missile launcher and a poisonous vial gun?

At some point, one of the Grineer bosses (forgot which one) mentioned the warframes making the Tenno slow and clumsy. I think that is pretty much a satisfying explanation for why they cannot have UNLIMITED POWER WOOT COS NINJAS

Plus I've never really had trouble keeping up with rushers without stamina mods, so I don't really get what the fuss is about. Sliding saves stamina, use it in conjuction with sliding, rolling, wallrunning to cover distance, dragonkicks... I don't see the problem with stamina, I really don't.

Is it really satisfying to just hold one button to run through one entire map? Let all the "advanced techniques" rot? Not counting the rest, sliding is already really good, I don't see the need to make it even more effortless when you have all those options at your disposal.

[DiabolusUrsus]

The issue isn't that we shouldn't have a stamina bar. We should. The issue is that we should have a stamina bar that we have a reason to use. Scott limiting the usage of stamina to the point where people would actually run out of it for periods of time without stamina mods would have been a perfectly reasonable change if not for the fact that stamina is currently only useful for sprinting.

If DE were to successfully make dodge-rolling, blocking, parkour maneuvers and melee combat potent and viable components of gameplay, requiring stamina mods would be excellent. It would force players to choose between ability-optimized Warframes, defensively-optimized Warframes, or utility-optimized Warframes. That's not even including all the in-between moderation and mix builds that would accompany maximum efficiency in a given stat. Mod loadout diversity strikes me as something that this game could always use more of for the time being.

Simply put, we should have limited stamina. We should need stamina mods. We should have a reason to want larger quantities of more quickly regenerating stamina outside of better sprint capabilities. Give us diminishing bonuses between when our stamina gauges are full and empty. Stuff like that. The stamina bar should stay. It just needs to be made a more interesting component of gameplay.

[litlit]

The issue isn't that we shouldn't have a stamina bar. We should. The issue is that we should have a stamina bar that we have a reason to use. Scott limiting the usage of stamina to the point where people would actually run out of it for periods of time without stamina mods would have been a perfectly reasonable change if not for the fact that stamina is currently only useful for sprinting.

If DE were to successfully make dodge-rolling, blocking, parkour maneuvers and melee combat potent and viable components of gameplay, requiring stamina mods would be excellent. It would force players to choose between ability-optimized Warframes, defensively-optimized Warframes, or utility-optimized Warframes. That's not even including all the in-between moderation and mix builds that would accompany maximum efficiency in a given stat. Mod loadout diversity strikes me as something that this game could always use more of for the time being.

Simply put, we should have limited stamina. We should need stamina mods. We should have a reason to want larger quantities of more quickly regenerating stamina outside of better sprint capabilities. Give us diminishing bonuses between when our stamina gauges are full and empty. Stuff like that. The stamina bar should stay. It just needs to be made a more interesting component of gameplay.

 

No. Not if it comes at the cost of the fluidity and freedom of movement that makes Warframe feel great to play.

Edited September 19, 2013 by litlit

[Casbeli]

I for one hated the idea of the aura mod slot too, so I'm highly against the idea of even more separate slots. Sorry, but I feel that would take out some tactical depth - you could put in those mods whatever happens, meaning there would be less things to plan out. If we follow this pattern, we would get a game that plays itself and there is no use for the player to think at all.

 

Hm, sorry but i think u dont read my whole post. I fully agree with u that there should be more tactical depth. Thats why i said " I liked the stammina system in Update 10" donno if u play the first houres of this update, where u had  nearly no stammina without these mods.

its not a +++ modslot for MORE mods. These extra slots should be for your own "balancing" the stammina system like u want/need it for your char.

 

The auraslot was just a + slot, for no nerf of the game mechanic, thats true and i completly agree with u.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Casbeli

[EganMC]

How much can I make you suffer?

[TheJagji]

No they changed it, we all hated it, they changed it back.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! No they didn't. They adjusted it a bit, but they have not done a total rollback.

[psycedelic]

i noticed as soon as i got on. I am a hardcore ash player. this update gave me nightmares

well at "hardcore" nightmares is a part of it you always run into nightmares ;D

[whitejackale]

Newbies sometimes are forced to rush because they can't fight the 10 Napalms in their way; they have to rush past them. Then they run into the next room, with half of their shields left, and OH CRAP there's 10 more guys, gotta rush past them too!

 

Next room, 5 more guys... if I stop now, those 10 I just passed are gonna bend me over...

 

etc etc etc.

 

Newbies have a hard enough time these days trying to slog through Earth. And no, Rush, Marathon, etc does not drop in Newbie Areas any longer. They don't.

 

My Newbie Account Test doesn't have a single Marathon, Rush, or Quick Rest and I went all the way through my guide (which involves getting up to Europa and building Rhino).

I fail to see how allowing players to rush through content is a solution to new players having a hard time in low level zones. If anything, the low level zones should be changed in order to allow players to clear the content without having to find ways around it.

[Xylia]

I fail to see how allowing players to rush through content is a solution to new players having a hard time in low level zones. If anything, the low level zones should be changed in order to allow players to clear the content without having to find ways around it.

 

In an idea situation, yes. The low level zones SHOULD be changed.

 

But until they are, Newbies need to be able to rush without mods and not run out of Stamina and get shot until they start staggering (because they somehow felt we needed MORE staggers, right?).

[whitejackale]

People keep pointing out that a change like this would cause players to always sprint as if it's a bad thing, but what exactly is the problem with that?  It used to be the norm that players would always be running in shooters, only slowing down for careful movements on ledges and such.  Stamina only really started becoming common in shooters as they started shifting more toward cover-based gameplay, where positioning is a HUGE part of the game and rationing rapid repositioning makes sense.  Warframe isn't a cover shooter.  That's a big part of what makes it stand out in the current shooter market.  Sprinting didn't need to be limited in games like Quake and Unreal Tournament, and it doesn't need to be here.

The reason that stamina bars limit player's ability to continuously sprint is that it brings a level of realism. What is the point of differentiating between running and sprinting? What if they got rid of the idea of changing the rate at which you move and simple had one movement speed? Here is an interesting link that covers stamina and why it is used in video games.

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/stamina-bar/3015-3569/

[Xylia]

The reason that stamina bars limit player's ability to continuously sprint is that it brings a level of realism. What is the point of differentiating between running and sprinting? What if they got rid of the idea of changing the rate at which you move and simple had one movement speed? Here is an interesting link that covers stamina and why it is used in video games.

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/stamina-bar/3015-3569/

 

That doesn't mean it is good for OUR game, though.

 

We don't need slowdowns. This game is built around Tenno moving fast. And besides, there already is only one movement speed: Sprint Slide Sprint Slide Sprint Slide Sprint Slide.

 

99% of everybody who isn't a newbie does either that, or Zorencopter which is even faster.

 

I don't know ANYBODY who plays Warframe who is Rank3+ who doesn't Run Slide Run Slide. Public games, friends, Nobody I know doesn't do this already.

 

Since we are all Sprinting every available second, it makes no sense to suddenly make players unable to do so. It adds nothing to the game, and it makes the game less fun. Why make a game less fun? "Realism"? We're freaking Space Ninjas running around doing Parkour in full suits of armor with huge guns strapped to our backs. Look this up:

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality

 

Read some of that, to understand why allowing us to Sprint endlessly a little easier really wouldn't hurt the game much.

[whitejackale]

That doesn't mean it is good for OUR game, though.

What do you have to support your claim that making it so that we can not sprint at all times would not be good for our game? It is your opinion that making it so that we can sprint at all times would be best for our game, and it is my opinion that it would not be best for our game. I have provided the reasonable argument of "if it is possible to sprint at maximum speed at all times, then they should just make it so that we are always moving at that speed instead of having a normal movement speed and a sprinting speed."

 

We don't need slowdowns. This game is built around Tenno moving fast. And besides, there already is only one movement speed: Sprint Slide Sprint Slide Sprint Slide Sprint Slide.

The game is build on mobility, but that does not mean that we are supposed to be "sprinting" at all times.

 

 

99% of everybody who isn't a newbie does either that, or Zorencopter which is even faster.

I am not a newbie and I do not go around spamming the sprint slide because it is very repetitive. I play this game to shoot enemeis, to cast abilities, and to melee enemies

 

I don't know ANYBODY who plays Warframe who is Rank3+ who doesn't Run Slide Run Slide. Public games, friends, Nobody I know doesn't do this already.

People rush through the game at maximum speed because their goal is to complete the levels as fast as possible in order to get certain rewards, and not because it is enjoyable.

 

Since we are all Sprinting every available second, it makes no sense to suddenly make players unable to do so. It adds nothing to the game, and it makes the game less fun. Why make a game less fun? "Realism"? We're freaking Space Ninjas running around doing Parkour in full suits of armor with huge guns strapped to our backs. Look this up:

We are not all sprinting at every available second. It makes perfect sense to make it so so that players are unable to sprint at all times because a sprint is meant to be a temporary boost in speed. Taking the ability to sprint at all times does not make the game less fun, and it might increase people's enjoyment of the game by making it so that they actually play through the content that DE has created instead of skipping most of it.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality

 

Read some of that, to understand why allowing us to Sprint endlessly a little easier really wouldn't hurt the game much.

Sprinting is a bonus that is meant to allow us to run faster than normal for a short amount of time. Allowing us to sprint at all times defeats the purpose of having a sprint. Like I said, if the game would be more enjoyable for us if we could sprint at all times, then why not ask the developers to remove the normal running speed and make it so that we are moving at maximum speed at all times without having to press a sprint key?

[litlit]

Who cares about any of that? Sprinting shouldn't be tied to stamina, it adds NOTHING to the game and only makes it less fun for those of us who enjoy movement.

 

For people like you who don't want to move around fast? Guess what, you don't have to. Why do you want to force others to play the way you do?

Edited September 19, 2013 by litlit

[BladesGenesis]

I always thought space ninjas would, you know, be ninjas.  The way they implemented this stamina is just contradictory to the game.  Now, if they made stamina do something that kept movement the same but altered something else, that would be completely fine.  Eh, hopefully DE can do some modifications to make this stamina system more relevant to the lore of being "space ninjas."

[Majicebe]

His answer was to add a system that hindered us so that we would notice the bar. My answer is to just get rid of it altogether.

 

If a system isn't relevant why force it to be? Do we really need a stamina bar?

I actually disagree on both counts.  I definitely noticed it before, particularly on new and slower frames.  If you're used to sprinting (which I assume all of us are) and don't have mods to either increase stamina or have it regen faster, then I don't know how you wouldn't notice it; you end up having to walk or pay attention slides constantly.

 

As for ridding the game of the system, I don't really like that idea either.  I guess I like that extra layer of combat management that goes along with stamina.  I don't mind the new changes at all, as you can still play almost entirely without concerning yourself with it... if you have the right mods.  It's another way to play, which adds to different build options, and that's something I'm all about.  Down with cookie cutter!

[MofineBovine]

At the moment i find myself running five feet, sliding, running five feet, sliding, running five feet, sliding... 

 

It doesnt require skill. It doesnt make the game more fun. It's probably just going to give me rsi in my left hand.

 

Then there are those fun moments when you go to wallrun across a wall but didnt stop to check your stamina bar first and you just do a face slide down the wall and go "whoopsi daisys" and turn around to get a little run up to have another go. 

 

 

Alot of the time this game just doesnt "flow" and stamina is one of the things it in that makes it "flow" less.

 

 

 

IF this game actualy had some variety to the melee combat system, if stamina existed purely for melee attacks/combos and blocking, then i could see a use for stamina. But atm it only exists to hinder mobility which = less fun for everyone.

Edited September 19, 2013 by MofineBovine

[MofineBovine]

 I don't mind the new changes at all, as you can still play almost entirely without concerning yourself with it... if you have the right mods.  It's another way to play, which adds to different build options, and that's something I'm all about.  Down with cookie cutter!

 

So the way to encourage variety is to hinder players to the point that they feel like they have to take certain mods?

[Malaheart]

I think the system is in a good place right now, sprinting feels better than it did pre-update 10. I also do have to check my stamina bar before I sprint for that wall run. All and all a bit more tweaking needed but it's feeling pretty good right now.

[KJMARZAN]

Yeah, probably remove the Stamina Bar anyway, I mean, Warframe ninjas should never get tired to keep the fast-paced game flowing...

[Majicebe]

So the way to encourage variety is to hinder players to the point that they feel like they have to take certain mods?

I don't consider it a hindrance -- it's a game mechanic that's been there for as long as I've played this game (6 months).  Yes, it can be slightly frustrating infrequently, but as it stands, it seems to encourage more use of the various movements in the game rather than just holding 'W'.  What seems more Space Ninja to you?  Run forward with one button, or using slides, slide-jumps, and jump attacks to speed around?  A huge part of the gameplay is movement in this game (which is unique to Warframe), so why should we dumb it down so everyone just pushes 'run forward' rather than doing slides/flips/etc.?  Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game to offer a hindrance without a way around it.

[Giltiamesh]

Sorry but as for stamina I feel it adds to realism - if you run without any rest you ought to have problems, especially if you do that running on a wall... upwards.

Space ninjas. SPACE NINJAS. NINJAS. IN. OUTER. @(*()$. SPACE.

 

I KNOW I can't run up a wall! That's because physics hates you and all of your filthy offspring. Physics is the worlds most powerful jackass. Every single injury you have ever suffered is the fault of Physics.

 

This is why I play video games. This is why EVERYONE plays video games. To duck reality and it's bullS#&$. If you want realism? Practice parkour. This is a videogame about flying space ninjas killing deformed human clones using powerfists and rocket launchers. Realism need not apply.

 

There is a flow to the game that is broken every time you run out of stamina. I imagine a lot of Rushers only rush at all because it feels right to do so. You are a NINJA. You are given ridiculous ninja mobility. Elevators are for CHUMPS. What self respecting ninja would take an elevator when he can hurl himself down the side way and surprise his enemies with a knife to the spine?

 

Yes yes, ninja's with guns and rocket launchers are already making a point of being god awful at stealth. But even then, there IS stealth gameplay. You can sneak around picking off enemies like a ghost if you want (not that you would because it's terrible as is). The point here is not realism. Realism is dumb, and a poor excuse to enforce the run-walk-run stamina garbage of other games. In realistic games? It makes sense to have the character get tired from sprinting too long. This is not realistic. It is in space. With ninjas.

 

Here's a game that did stamina properly: Dark Souls. In Dark Souls, stamina is actually as valuable as your life. If not MORE valuable. Because stamina in Dark Souls is used for just about everything. Every attack drains stamina (no guns to speak of means this is relevant, magic has no stamina cost but only a limited number of uses and leaves you vulnerable as a tradeoff), meaning all of your attacks have to be carefully planned and executed. But at the same time, defence (blocking, parrying, rolling) all use stamina as well. But let's not stop there! Sprinting costs stamina! So here we have everything costing stamina. It is a HIGHLY valuable resource because you have to manage it between attack, mobility and defence. Its existence is CORE to gameplay. And while it can be annoying to run out of stamina mid-sprint while simply exploring, it's a small price to pay for what it adds to the games overall design and (intended) difficulty.

 

What Warfram has done, is put a stamina bar in for jollies. It is not integral. It is not essential. It has no meaning other than getting from Point A to Point B. Melee was never really affected by it, and blocking, parrying and dodging? Who even REMEMBERS how to use those? All the stamina bar did before was force us to Sliderun. And apparently even that wasn't acceptable, so they butchered our stamina bars to the point even that's impossible. Nope. We, the Tenno, motherFUKKEN space ninjas, have to WALK. Yup. Walking. Not sneaking or creeping or stalking. Just... walking. Real ninjalike right there.

 

A ninja should never sprint around a corner, and have to STOP for three seconds until he has the STAMINA to wallrun. Go play the Sands of Time. You won't hear the Prince of Persia complain about how his legs hurt. You think Ryu Hayabusa would slow down to admire the décor? When half the city is on his &#! because he just stabbed someone important, Altair didn't think "man I should stop for a second before I continue fleeing my enemies."

 

Realism is fantastic. When it ADDS something. This adds nothing.

[MofineBovine]

Majicebe:

"I don't consider it a hindrance -- it's a game mechanic that's been there for as long as I've played this game (6 months).  Yes, it can be slightly frustrating infrequently, but as it stands, it seems to encourage more use of the various movements in the game rather than just holding 'W'.  What seems more Space Ninja to you?  Run forward with one button, or using slides, slide-jumps, and jump attacks to speed around?  A huge part of the gameplay is movement in this game (which is unique to Warframe), so why should we dumb it down so everyone just pushes 'run forward' rather than doing slides/flips/etc.?  Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game to offer a hindrance without a way around it."

 

 

Sliding, slide jumps and jump attacks all have a place without stamina... if the ONLY reason you are ever sliding is purely because its more economical then you are doing it wrong. 

 

Imagine playing assassins creed or prince of persia with a stamina bar. If they removed stamina, then i would do a slide when i wanted to slide, becasue the situation warrented it. Not just to regen a bit of stamina. Going run, slide, run, slide isnt rocket science. Removing the need to do it wouldnt "dumb it down." It would make moving forward less of a pain in my left hand.

Edited September 19, 2013 by MofineBovine