The New Nullifier Paradigm = Unfun

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, MaryoSlayer said:

Just shoot the damn thing down...it is supposed to be hard to kill.I see so many snowflakes around here lately demanding enemies nerfs wtf...

Melee Nullies already have been nerfed, and not just a little, because people were sad about them.

[DeadVoid118]

1 minute ago, Kylo. said:

How the hell are ten nullifiers are running at you, you are making s hit up, at no time will ten nullifiers run at you and if you can't see the nullifiers before they are already in your face then that's your problem.

If I could be bothered to start a match just to take a video I would. Regardless, it happens and is not all that rare. Also, it's rather hard to distinguish nullifiers from other enemies when they don't have a bubble up and somebody is blasting a staticor in my face.

1 minute ago, trst said:

Except I just gave three examples on how to deal with them without going anywhere near the bubble.

If they didn't have nullifiers there would be no gameplay to them outside of nuke frames so much as glancing at them. Making them more of a non-threat than infested.

And balancing can work as the only scaling issues there could be in armor which we have ample options to deal with or outright remove with CP. But besides, our weapons are already far more overpowered than most frames.

Your three examples were all 'shoot them', which isn't quite that effective if you're a bad shot (and/or use AOE weapons)/having to move around to keep from getting shot, have weapons with low firerate, and/or multiple are running at you with their drones all over the place.

Your argument of them being the only thing that makes the Corpus not vaporized by nukes doesn't hold water. The nullifiers are the only thing not vaporized by proper nukes. Grineer are in the same boat as infested for most of the time. And you can solve for X without using Y. The Corpus, if you want them to be difficult, could have something else. Give some of them shield-gating (unless using a finisher because muh stealth) or make enemies that are resistant to AOE abilities, or any other number of things you can think of adding. The problem with nullifiers is they serve several functions that should be in different units. They're shield ospreys (boost survivability for those around them), tanks, energy drains, and ability nullifiers. Give them one of these things, not all four (and as I personally outright detest anything that's pure immunity, I'd prefer resistance to abilities).

Weapons do not increase durability, nor does their damage scale as some frame abilities do. That is the problem with scaling. The abilities either scale to do (or reduce) too much damage or too little, making them unusable or far too usable to the point of being a requirement. You can't survive higher-level missions without X ability, which is normally a 90-99% damage reduction.

5 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Opinion:

Since I personally don't like to press 1 or 2 buttons and watch Affinity number and loot pop up all over the screen, I like them and I think DE need to implement more high priority enemies, like Nullifiers and Ancients.

I don't want more of anything with an unavoidable grab that can't be stopped despite knockdown/interruption.

[EmberStar]

43 minutes ago, Kylo. said:

How are Melee Nullifiers annoying? They can't shoot you, you need to watch out for them a bit and can't just mindlessly play but other than that they can't do anything.

Except run right up to you and annihilate survivability buffs (Inaros, Oberon, Nehza, Rhino, Zephyr, Mesa) and prevent you from using abilities at all.  (Every other frame.)  And while the melee nullifier is kind of "meh" in combat, the new Corpus engineer types with the Kormorex sniper rifle or Exigis bazooka shotgun are standing right behind him, ready to one-shot you while you slap down the melee nullifier.

Regular nullifiers are irritating, because they negate a big part of what makes Warframe interesting.  (If I wanted to spend three minutes shooting some dipstick in a hoodie with a million HP, the Division is *right* over there.)  But at least they hang back at range, allowing you to make tactical decisions and choices in combat.  You can switch to a rapid fire weapon and burn down the bubble, or slide into it and melee them if doing so won't wreck your buffs.  The melee nullifiers *remove* choices, because if they're even relevant in combat at all it's because they're *already* at melee range whapping you with their hittin' stick.

Aspects of Nullifier design also make them less interesting and much harder to fight than they really need to be.  The "weakspot" projector isn't centered above the enemy.  Instead, it's offset forward, and moves very rapidly and in a way that's very hard to predict when the enemy turns.  As mentioned above, the collision box for them is also... wierd, and you'll probably hit the bubble shield instead of the projector unless you're firing *just* right.  Instead of making sniper rifles valuable ("I'll snipe the projectors!") it just makes even more frustrating to use than against normal enemies.  The fact that the bubbles stack is also *incredibly* annoying.  I really can't count the number of times I've seen two, three, or even four Nullifiers standing side by side and shielding each other.  At that point if you don't have a Soma Prime or Akstilletto, you're looking at a lot of frustration to deal with them.  And that's not even counting the part where enemy AI seems to prioritize standing inside the bubbles, so "just slide in and melee" is probably going to get you point blank shot in the head by the Nullifier Clump and another ten enemies hiding under their shields.

[ZeroBladeTV]

Nullifiers are the reason I avoid corpus missions like the plague. If their bubbles were popped by huge damage hits, the same way they are with fast firing weapons, maybe they might be bearable, but right now it's just an annoyance.

Go into bubble, kill nullifier, rebuff/recast, repeat ad infinitum.

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

The term 'Power Fantasy' is massivly misunderstood by large parts of the Warframe community.

I know I could lose a few pounds, but calling me large is kinda mean, don'tchu think?

[DeadVoid118]

2 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

The term 'Power Fantasy' is massivly misunderstood by large parts of the Warframe community. A Power Fantasy is distinctivly NOT being able to kill anything without any effort. A power Fantasy still NEEDS a challenge.

Achtuallie, the term 'Power Fantasy' just means fantasizing about having power. Whether or not you acquired it through effort or a challenge is irrelevant (and most people use it to refer to when you unfairly acquire power without effort, the opposite of your definition, and English is majority rules most of the time, so eh).

[DeadVoid118]

7 minutes ago, MaryoSlayer said:

Just shoot the damn thing down...it is supposed to be hard to kill.I see so many snowflakes around here lately demanding enemies nerfs wtf...

Just nerf the ding dang darn thing down... it is supposed to be easy to kill. I see so many snowflakes around here lately demanding the game be uber-hard...

[Ced23Ric]

4 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

This is why I stop hoping for challenging endgame. Players think they want one. But they don't. 

This entire thread, the complaints about the Wolf, the complaints about the melee nullies a few days ago, all of that is a distinct sign of people not wanting challenging fights that are clutch and tough. What a lot of people seem to want is a) large numbers, such as "level 200", and b) effortlessly killing them with over-powered gear, only to then turn around and say, and think, they did well.

As soon as they can't nuke a room or double-tap an enemy, it's all doom and gloom, and my favorite brand of complainers comes out of the wood-works: "tHinK oF tHE neWBiEs dE!!!11"

So yeah, that's a power fantasy. A fake challenge, ending with player dominance, as means of escapism. Where the victory is assured and resistance is token.

 

 

Warframe would need the armor scaling fixed, the basic damage mods melded into the weapons, and every other mod cut down in half by effect. Multiplier effects need to go way, way down, and then there can be a much more level playing field, where players still have agency and effect, but no longer sleepwalk through missions. But then it would lose a lot of its core; which is a horde shooter where players are these nigh undefeatable gods of war.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Ced23Ric

[MaryoSlayer]

1 minute ago, Keylan118 said:

Just nerf the ding dang darn thing down... it is supposed to be easy to kill. I see so many snowflakes around here lately demanding the game be uber-hard...

  

[844448]

1 hour ago, FatherGrimm said:

With all the Corpus content in recent months (Fortuna, Gas City) there's been a huge increase in the frequency of nullifying mobs/traps/etc.  Disruption missions are the latest (and worst) implementation of this phenomenon, including melee nullifiers that pop frequently and run right into you.  Doing any Orb Vallis content for an extended period of time (e.g., toroid runs) will pop tons of nullifer and scrambus/comba mobs.

Having to constantly recast abilities, check on other buffs on group members, and simply being prohibited from using any abilities takes away from all the unique fun of the frames.  This game might as well be a generic FPS shooter if the uptime on our WF abilities is completely tanked. 

You know we're blessed with insane mobility that rarely present on other shooter games, don't you? If you see one you can quickly retreat to gain some distance and take them down, you're not forced to get into the bubble and give the nullifier a melee slap to deal with them

[844448]

5 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

This entire thread, the complaints about the Wolf, the complaints about the melee nullies a few days ago, all of that is a distinct sign of people not wanting challenging fights that are clutch and tough. What a lot of people seem to want is a) large numbers, such as "level 200", and b) effortlessly killing them with over-powered gear, only to then turn around and say, and think, they did well.

As soon as they can't nuke a room or double-tap an enemy, it's all doom and gloom, and my favorite brand of complainers comes out of the wood-works: "tHinK oF tHE neWBiEs dE!!!11"

So yeah, that's a power fantasy. A fake challenge, ending with player dominance, as means of escapism. Where the victory is assured and resistance is token.

 

 

Warframe would need the armor scaling fixed, the basic damage mods melded into the weapons, and every other mod cut down in half by effect. Multiplier effects need to go way, way down, and then there can be a much more level playing field, where players still have agency and effect, but no longer sleepwalk through missions. But then it would lose a lot of its core; which is a horde shooter where players are these nigh undefeatable gods of war.

And when the enemies are nerfed and being too easy, they claim the game is too easy and no challenge

[844448]

1 hour ago, Paradoxity said:

Do they though? We've been talking about how Nullifiers and immune enemies are garbage and unfun design from day 1 of their appearance, and they... add more of them. Either they don't see that nullifiers are unfun, they don't care and think it provides necessary challenge (Which, to be fair, yes, nullifiers are harder to kill if only by dint of the fact that the bubble is also a shield), they don't agree that they're unfun, or they don't care that we, as players, dislike them and find them unfun.

 

 

 

 

I find them something of a reminder that you can't be brain-dead pressing 4 all the time and they're really weak already without their bubbles

[--DSP--Jetstream]

11 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

This is why I stop hoping for challenging endgame. Players think they want one. But they don't. 

True, like some people in this thread cant even shoot a big bright bubble because they just too used to nuke everything with saryn or just press 4 with mesa and the "i avoid playing corpus mission because i cant press 4 to win!" kind of thing. Its partly de's fault too for making op abilities then later having to rely on ability disruption mechanic to add challenge because theres no other way it seem.

[seprent]

4 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

I don't want more of anything with an unavoidable grab that can't be stopped despite knockdown/interruption.

its a high speed moving projectile it can miss it can be blocked it can be dodged 

ancients and scorpions used the hook ahead of where they think your going to go up until they acually throw it once they throw it you can avoid it 

ancients even have a larger trigger radius to use the move then the actual hook range a sharp change in direction or using that instant melee swap helps since you will auto block it now hell even your normal movement if your bouncy enough will throw them off 

if you want to talk bs of the hook cuz there is some you named one being able to use no matter how you interrupt or knock them down once they start oh they can also do it behind them if they started it and you get behind them fast enough or they use it in melee range to push you  you can fix this with adding a minimum range they are allowed to use so if you get to close they stop or cant use it and put it in like a cone in front of them so you could potentially side step the range this also avoids the your behind me get hooks scenario 

as for nullies eh not a problem for me just melee them and they go away not exactly hard to rebuild what they took you might be abit of a low swing for a minute but even a low swing for us is pretty deadly though who ever suggested the nullified change of it's still on just in a standby state for abit after being effected that sounds pretty good still allows them to be a threat and do their job but also saves you abit of hassle if you can even call it hassle to rebuild your powerbase 

[844448]

57 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Other than, you know, cancel and prevent all your abilities which is kind of the point of warframes in a game called Warframe. Sure, you can run away and attempt to dodge, but that gets real dicey real quick in a full squad surrounded by level 100+ nullifiers.

Just because nullifiers make the Corpus harder does not mean they make the Corpus better in terms of gameplay. Resistance I can handle. Outright immunity and disabling (which effectively makes them energy sinks as well) is gonna be a no from me. And making frame abilities balanced isn't an option moreso due to scaling issues than anything else (as making them work properly for X-Y level range makes them terrible/overpowered for A-B level range.

Watch out properly and effectively enough for any enemy and they are not a threat. The problem is splitting your focus between a dozen things at once in a fast-paced game like Warframe. I'm constantly having to be reminded to activate X ability or use Y weapon against this enemy or use my amp because this guy is my enemy and immune to basic damage or I'm out of energy so I need to use energizing dash or I'm moving too slow and getting hit too much so focus on moving faster or there's a nearby energy leech you need to find or you need to switch weapons because you're running out of ammo and need to conserve it for a specific enemy or you need to check your minimap for an objective/enemy locations/loot or etc.. It gets real draining real quick, and nullifiers just add to the pile. I'm not saying all these things are bad, but when I'm focusing on all these things it feels real cheap to see that bubble suddenly disable all my abilities from behind.

What if I tell you that you're not ready for warframe? Maybe honing your reaction speed and eye/hand coordination on lower levels can help? Or playing some games with slower pace (contra and super contra help in this case)

(If this is a case where you spend your time leeching exp on hydron so your movements become dull, it's on you)

[seprent]

22 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Just nerf the ding dang darn thing down... it is supposed to be easy to kill. I see so many snowflakes around here lately demanding the game be uber-hard...

there no tougher then a vapos detron crewman literally the same stats in the codex just a bubble just walk up to them and kill them or shoot them

what would you want nerfed the radius some more because that got cut by 66% i think when they got nerfed before 

and the opposite of the snowflake thing can also be said with people demanding the game be made easier its a constant thing from both sides just depends were you look so i wont dig that can of worms 

Edited June 3, 2019 by seprent
wrong word used

[DeadVoid118]

1 minute ago, Ced23Ric said:

This entire thread, the complaints about the Wolf, the complaints about the melee nullies a few days ago, all of that is a distinct sign of people not wanting challenging fights that are clutch and tough. What a lot of people seem to want is a) large numbers, such as "level 200", and b) effortlessly killing them with over-powered gear, only to then turn around and say, and think, they did well.

As soon as they can't nuke a room or double-tap an enemy, it's all doom and gloom, and my favorite brand of complainers comes out of the wood-works: "tHinK oF tHE neWBiEs dE!!!11"

So yeah, that's a power fantasy. A fake challenge, ending with player dominance, as means of escapism. Where the victory is assured and resistance is token.

To be fair, that's what games are. Any good game should always end in player victory (outside of PVP or games specifically tailored to uber-hardness). Additionally, Warframe is currently a 'patchwork of fairness'. Certain rewards can only be acquired through hard content, which is unfair to F2P. I understand some vets wanting a real challenge, but locking good rewards behind that (like Adaptation or arcanes) is not fair because many people can't uber-optimize including myself. I want to play the dang game, not spend an hour figuring out the best build for what I have because all the guides have stuff I don't/use stuff from other hard content that I can't do because I need rewards from this hard content. It'd be better if they just offered better rewards in terms of consumables like Kuva or Endo and/or made those unique rewards attainable in easier missions for a lower chance. Sure, I can get through harder content, but I feel like I'm being carried more often than not with how often I get downed and how often the numbers show I've barely killed anyone compared to everyone else (and I'm not a buffer or healer at the time). I'm getting better, but that's only because I've been carried by others so much that I've now got the rewards I need.

1 minute ago, MaryoSlayer said:

  -snip-

It's not bait, it's a joke attempting to point out the idiocy of your statement. Telling people their opinions are invalid and that they're just 'snowflakes' isn't conducive to discussion, which is why it probably seems like bait now that I think about it. My bad I suppose.

2 minutes ago, seprent said:

its a high speed moving projectile it can miss it can be blocked it can be dodged 

ancients and scorpions used the hook ahead of where they think your going to go up until they acually throw it once they throw it you can avoid it 

ancients even have a larger trigger radius to use the move then the actual hook range a sharp change in direction or using that instant melee swap helps since you will auto block it now hell even your normal movement if your bouncy enough will throw them off 

if you want to talk bs of the hook cuz there is some you named one being able to use no matter how you interrupt or knock them down once they start oh they can also do it behind them if they started it and you get behind them fast enough or they use it in melee range to push you  you can fix this with adding a minimum range they are allowed to use so if you get to close they stop or cant use it and put it in like a cone in front of them so you could potentially side step the range this also avoids the your behind me get hooks scenario 

as for nullies eh not a problem for me just melee them and they go away not exactly hard to rebuild what they took you might be abit of a low swing for a minute but even a low swing for us is pretty deadly though who ever suggested the nullified change of it's still on just in a standby state for abit after being effected that sounds pretty good still allows them to be a threat and do their job but also saves you abit of hassle if you can even call it hassle to rebuild your powerbase 

Well, I was trying to say that knockdown and interruption were useless and it's stupidly-hard to avoid when you're close.

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

What if I tell you that you're not ready for warframe? Maybe honing your reaction speed and eye/hand coordination on lower levels can help? Or playing some games with slower pace (contra and super contra help in this case)

(If this is a case where you spend your time leeching exp on hydron so your movements become dull, it's on you)

I think you'd be rather surprised by my reaction time and eye/hand coordination. I'm not amazing, but I'd say I'm average for PC gamers. Not anything terrible. But that doesn't solve anything. I'm prone to mistakes. I get caught on things, I press the wrong button at times, and so on. Sometimes, the punishments for those mistakes feel earned like when I divebomb into an abyss. Other times, not so much like when a nullifier appears and disables everything following with my instant death because it's a high level.
For the record, I don't actually farm Hydron. I go into Onslaught with Equinox or a frame I need to level with Staticor or Arca Plasmor (I still need Khora's bp). I never attempt to leech (but sometimes I might as well be with how outclassed I am on occasion).

[DeadVoid118]

7 minutes ago, seprent said:

there no tougher then a elite detron crewman literally the same stats in the codex just a bubble just walk up to them and kill them or shoot them

what would you want nerfed the radius some more because that got cut by 66% i think when they got nerfed before 

and the opposite of the snowflake thing can also be said with people demanding the game be made easier its a constant thing from both sides just depends were you look so i wont dig that can of worms 

No tougher than an elite detron crewman except the bubble that turns them into a tank, buffer, ability nullifier, and energy drain if you enter that bubble. Walking up to them is suicide at higher levels when you're reliant on abilities for sustainability.

I'd prefer they nerfed the ability nullification. Make it pause abilities rather than disable them, or make it a 99% resistance rather than outright ability stoppage. Give them the role of tank, or buffer, or ability nullifier, or energy drain. Don't give them all four of those at once. Give them one or two and give those other roles to some other enemies.

and that was my point. I quoted someone calling one side snowflakes, so I did the same by calling the other side snowflakes while slightly mimicking the quote.

[DeadVoid118]

1 minute ago, moostar95 said:

Well, if you want the best stuff. Buy it with plat or earn it. 

That was my point. Let me earn it through time rather than difficulty as an option.

[spirit_of_76]

1 hour ago, Kylo. said:

How are Melee Nullifiers annoying? They can't shoot you, you need to watch out for them a bit and can't just mindlessly play but other than that they can't do anything.

they actually try to get into range with you.  if you are useing a buff relaiant frame (see Oberon) then you are kinda hosed unless you brought a weapon that is good at tilling them.  I would love an amalgome mod for the snipetron that let it shoot through nullifier sheilds

[844448]

2 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

To be fair, that's what games are. Any good game should always end in player victory (outside of PVP or games specifically tailored to uber-hardness). Additionally, Warframe is currently a 'patchwork of fairness'. Certain rewards can only be acquired through hard content, which is unfair to F2P. I understand some vets wanting a real challenge, but locking good rewards behind that (like Adaptation or arcanes) is not fair because many people can't uber-optimize including myself. I want to play the dang game, not spend an hour figuring out the best build for what I have because all the guides have stuff I don't/use stuff from other hard content that I can't do because I need rewards from this hard content. It'd be better if they just offered better rewards in terms of consumables like Kuva or Endo and/or made those unique rewards attainable in easier missions for a lower chance. Sure, I can get through harder content, but I feel like I'm being carried more often than not with how often I get downed and how often the numbers show I've barely killed anyone compared to everyone else (and I'm not a buffer or healer at the time). I'm getting better, but that's only because I've been carried by others so much that I've now got the rewards I need.

It's not bait, it's a joke attempting to point out the idiocy of your statement. Telling people their opinions are invalid and that they're just 'snowflakes' isn't conducive to discussion, which is why it probably seems like bait now that I think about it. My bad I suppose.

Well, I was trying to say that knockdown and interruption were useless and it's stupidly-hard to avoid when you're close.

I think you'd be rather surprised by my reaction time and eye/hand coordination. I'm not amazing, but I'd say I'm average for PC gamers. Not anything terrible. But that doesn't solve anything. I'm prone to mistakes. I get caught on things, I press the wrong button at times, and so on. Sometimes, the punishments for those mistakes feel earned like when I divebomb into an abyss. Other times, not so much like when a nullifier appears and disables everything following with my instant death because it's a high level.
For the record, I don't actually farm Hydron. I go into Onslaught with Equinox or a frame I need to level with Staticor or Arca Plasmor (I still need Khora's bp). I never attempt to leech (but sometimes I might as well be with how outclassed I am on occasion).

Maybe you want to take a look at other games, because so far I can't find a game that gives you everything just like that unless you can help me find one game that doesn't have anything locked behind some hard content and being honest, warframe is already very easy (unless the problem is you don't really know how to mod because I don't use any riven or event limited mods at all and still okay), there's no uber-optimizing needed. Perhaps more solo training will help

 

If knockdown and interruption are hard to avoid when you're close, maybe try not to get too close?

 

I don't know, here in my place we rarely have problems with nullifiers, perhaps those memes about Asians are true after all?

 

[Wyrmius_Prime]

14 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Certain rewards can only be acquired through hard content

There is no hard content in the entire game.

[EmberStar]

19 minutes ago, 844448 said:

What if I tell you that you're not ready for warframe? Maybe honing your reaction speed and eye/hand coordination on lower levels can help? Or playing some games with slower pace (contra and super contra help in this case)

(If this is a case where you spend your time leeching exp on hydron so your movements become dull, it's on you)

What if I tell you that not everyone who plays Warframe is a fifteen year old hopped up on Red Bull?  And point out that for some people, "not fast enough to dodge three Ancients trying to hookshot them in the back" is as fast as they're ever going to get?

Not every damn game needs to be "eSports ready" where the average reaction speed needs to be measured in microseconds.  And harpoon attacks (and moa stomps) are kind of BS because of how the game implements them.  The AI gets to calculate exactly where it thinks you will be, with no "stormtrooper spray" like on normal weapons.  Unless you normally jitter around like a gnat having a seizure, it's *very* good at predicting where you're going to be.  And more importantly, hitting those enemies with a stun or crowd control power won't stop it.  I've been churning through Derelict Defense missions with Khora to get the last 1500 Mutagen Samples for my solo dojo Hema research.  (Because it's something to do.)  And the Ancients can *absolutely* nail me with their harpoon even *AFTER* they've been ensnared.

[ZeroBladeTV]

4 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

...nail me with their harpoon even *AFTER* they've been ensnared.

And stunned and knocked down, AND through a wall/corner. That's "fun".

[844448]

1 minute ago, EmberStar said:

What if I tell you that not everyone who plays Warframe is a fifteen year old hopped up on Red Bull?  And point out that for some people, "not fast enough to dodge three Ancients trying to hookshot them in the back" is as fast as they're ever going to get?

Not every damn game needs to be "eSports ready" where the average reaction speed needs to be measured in microseconds.  And harpoon attacks (and moa stomps) are kind of BS because of how the game implements them.  The AI gets to calculate exactly where it thinks you will be, with no "stormtrooper spray" like on normal weapons.  Unless you normally jitter around like a gnat having a seizure, it's *very* good at predicting where you're going to be.  And more importantly, hitting those enemies with a stun or crowd control power won't stop it.  I've been churning through Derelict Defense missions with Khora to get the last 1500 Mutagen Samples for my solo dojo Hema research.  (Because it's something to do.)  And the Ancients can *absolutely* nail me with their harpoon even *AFTER* they've been ensnared.

What if I tell you I play the game more often being extremely sleepy than not? They have this stormtrooper spray if you don't stand still

MOA stomps have 1.5 seconds for the MOA to lift one leg before the stomp happens, maybe you want to try solo on venus or phobos and observe a bit. Harpoon attack is no different, you can see the rope coming at you and you can roll sideways to avoid it

Perhaps, a solo strolling like I often do can help you understand the enemies