Katinka Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I'm fine with the melee Nullifiers. A while back I actually suggested them as an alternative to the original sniper Nullifiers everyone was complaining about. I figured a melee rushing Nullifier would be preferable to the camping combo of Corrupted Nullifier, Healer & Bombard/Gunner that was the focus of peoples ire back then. Now that they are actually a thing, I think I was right. They rush forward forcing us to deal with them but also enabling us to remove them easily instead of sitting at the back covering a deadly band of allies. From my experience of the new mission (soloing the 4000 points required for Glaxion Vandal with Chroma Prime) the melee Nullies weren't a big deal. The bubble is fairly obvious so I either switched to my secondary weapon to bring it down or just hopped around and over them while my Djinn's Deth Machine Rifle popped the bubble. The far more irritating thing was the power deactivating wave the Demolysts have as that seemed to have little warning and would drop my Vex Armour at the exact time I needed it's dps boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Star_Rival_Defender Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Nullifies should just A. Prevent casting abilities. B. Cleanse enemies of being affected by Warframe abilities. They should not remove self-buffs on Warframes or allies, and shouldn't disable most non-offensive channeling abilities, like Renewal. They should disable Exalted weapons I suppose, and stuff like World on Fire, but not things like Adsorb or Renewal. I primarily say disabled Exalted Weapons because they make it particularly easy to kill a Nullifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadVoid118 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 33 minutes ago, 844448 said: Maybe you want to take a look at other games, because so far I can't find a game that gives you everything just like that unless you can help me find one game that doesn't have anything locked behind some hard content and being honest, warframe is already very easy (unless the problem is you don't really know how to mod because I don't use any riven or event limited mods at all and still okay), there's no uber-optimizing needed. Perhaps more solo training will help If knockdown and interruption are hard to avoid when you're close, maybe try not to get too close? Look at any non-online game and you'll find it has difficulty settings and a rather large amount of purposefully-abusable mechanics (like in Dark Souls) which you can use to get past any 'challenge'. Now, this of course doesn't mean that such things easily translate into online games, but you can achieve that by having easier content and harder content with the same rewards but different drop rates. Incentive to run the harder stuff while allowing the easier stuff to be done, theoretically satisfying both the people who want to be Gods and those who want a challenge. My personal skill level does not play into this. I was saying that ancient grapples aren't disrupted by knockdown, the grapple can't be interrupted and that the grapple is hard to avoid when close, almost impossibly so if you're not prepared. Trying to not get close isn't much of a help in a horde game that spawns them everywhere. 59 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said: There is no hard content in the entire game. I recommend you go for the 'no mod' challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seprent Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 32 minutes ago, Keylan118 said: No tougher than an elite detron crewman except the bubble that turns them into a tank, buffer, ability nullifier, and energy drain if you enter that bubble. Walking up to them is suicide at higher levels when you're reliant on abilities for sustainability. I'd prefer they nerfed the ability nullification. Make it pause abilities rather than disable them, or make it a 99% resistance rather than outright ability stoppage. Give them the role of tank, or buffer, or ability nullifier, or energy drain. Don't give them all four of those at once. Give them one or two and give those other roles to some other enemies. and that was my point. I quoted someone calling one side snowflakes, so I did the same by calling the other side snowflakes while slightly mimicking the quote. ok im in the sim as im typing this listening to the vapos hit me he has no armor just health and shields i will use my exergis to destroy the bubble this vapos is level 135 it took 3-4 shots depending on my muti shot an automatic/fast semi auto weapon could be better i will now go get and use my stubba to destroy the bubble stubba did it fairly quickly since the nullifier bubble has a min and max damage it can take i was probably do min to it or maybe abit above but took like a second in a half ill use a semi pistol now akvasto prime to destroy the bubble that took four shots to destroy i am now standing in the bubble with energy siphon on then ill go take it off still gaining energy at the same rate not losing energy i will now kill the nuli with my exergis then my pistols (AkvastoP) then my melee tatsu one shot, 3 shot, and 4 swings they are not a tank a buffer yes since the shield can eat some hits before dropping for them not many but some allowing them to shoot at you and they do have eximus variants that can give benefits but they are fairly squishy the eximus variant is abit tougher with increased health now an eximus variant of them yeah that's a tank in just having high health. But they can only really help other melee units due to being melee they have to rush you so they only protect melee ones and indirectly ranged ones. Their bubble however is quite small so if you got a automatic weapon or a semi you can jackobs as fast as you can pull the trigger you can drop it quick and probably move back or around them to kite while holding your survival buffs as for your nullification idea i like it personally id go for something like this allies (corpus) inside the bubble gain the equivalent of the ancient disrupt power effect buff it has heavy reduced duration and damage effect entry to the bubble puts your abilities on stand by abilities lose effect till you leave the bubble the eximus variants can cover tank on a basic since they have more health and shields and buffer or energy drain depending on their variant i think they have access to leech since its a melee unit. Abilities will go though the bubble this way but will be shortened in duration and effectiveness dramatically damage will still hurt them but not as much and will only last little bit rather then just saying No and when they do reach your nullified abilities put on hold and paused till you move or deal with the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadVoid118 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 55 minutes ago, 844448 said: What if I tell you I play the game more often being extremely sleepy than not? They have this stormtrooper spray if you don't stand still MOA stomps have 1.5 seconds for the MOA to lift one leg before the stomp happens, maybe you want to try solo on venus or phobos and observe a bit. Harpoon attack is no different, you can see the rope coming at you and you can roll sideways to avoid it Perhaps, a solo strolling like I often do can help you understand the enemies Being sleepy doesn't necessarily impair your reaction time. In fact, if I remember correctly, staying up long enough can pump your body full of adrenaline to keep you awake which might actually help your reaction time (I don't actually know though, don't quote me). That's not stormtrooper spray. That's dodging. Their accuracy is so ridiculously good when you're not moving it's suicide to stop moving (which is very bad design since people need breaks (short ones to re-situate themselves) and my break shouldn't be 'I've vaporized everything in the room' since I can't really do that in endless modes like survival without a nuke frame). The sheer amount of clutter on screen is going to prevent anyone with a one-track mind like me from paying attention to everything at once and always being a perfect beast at everything I do. If I'm shooting something, I want to be focused on shooting it, not countering the nullifiers, shockwaves, energy leeches, and arbitration drones at the same time as shooting that thing. Sure, I can generally keep up, but all it takes is one mistake when outside a tank frame, and mistakes will be plentiful with all that clutter. 7 minutes ago, seprent said: ok im in the sim as im typing this listening to the vapos hit me he has no armor just health and shields i will use my exergis to destroy the bubble this vapos is level 135 it took 3-4 shots depending on my muti shot an automatic/fast semi auto weapon could be better i will now go get and use my stubba to destroy the bubble stubba did it fairly quickly since the nullifier bubble has a min and max damage it can take i was probably do min to it or maybe abit above but took like a second in a half ill use a semi pistol now akvasto prime to destroy the bubble that took four shots to destroy i am now standing in the bubble with energy siphon on then ill go take it off still gaining energy at the same rate not losing energy i will now kill the nuli with my exergis then my pistols (AkvastoP) then my melee tatsu one shot, 3 shot, and 4 swings they are not a tank a buffer yes since the shield can eat some hits before dropping for them not many but some allowing them to shoot at you and they do have eximus variants that can give benefits but they are fairly squishy the eximus variant is abit tougher with increased health now an eximus variant of them yeah that's a tank in just having high health. But they can only really help other melee units due to being melee they have to rush you so they only protect melee ones and indirectly ranged ones. Their bubble however is quite small so if you got a automatic weapon or a semi you can jackobs as fast as you can pull the trigger you can drop it quick and probably move back or around them to kite while holding your survival buffs as for your nullification idea i like it personally id go for something like this allies (corpus) inside the bubble gain the equivalent of the ancient disrupt power effect buff it has heavy reduced duration and damage effect entry to the bubble puts your abilities on stand by abilities lose effect till you leave the bubble the eximus variants can cover tank on a basic since they have more health and shields and buffer or energy drain depending on their variant i think they have access to leech since its a melee unit. Abilities will go though the bubble this way but will be shortened in duration and effectiveness dramatically damage will still hurt them but not as much and will only last little bit rather then just saying No and when they do reach your nullified abilities put on hold and paused till you move or deal with the problem I see now that I may have miscommunicated some things. First off, the 'energy drain' I mentioned was from their nullifying of abilities, meaning you have to recast them, meaning you lose energy. Secondly, they are a tank. They take more hits than those around them. That's a tank. Sure, you can annihilate them quickly, but not relatively when everything else is instantly dead. They're even tankier against certain attacks (abilities). Thirdly, they're a 'buffer' as in a buff-giver, like the shield ospreys. They make those around them tankier by hiding them in their bubble, preventing abilities from working (and requiring you take down the bubble first before dealing damage from outside it). They also indirectly buff everyone behind them by blocking line-of-fire and punch-through (but at least abilities work on those). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844448 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 23 minutes ago, Keylan118 said: Look at any non-online game and you'll find it has difficulty settings and a rather large amount of purposefully-abusable mechanics (like in Dark Souls) which you can use to get past any 'challenge'. Now, this of course doesn't mean that such things easily translate into online games, but you can achieve that by having easier content and harder content with the same rewards but different drop rates. Incentive to run the harder stuff while allowing the easier stuff to be done, theoretically satisfying both the people who want to be Gods and those who want a challenge. My personal skill level does not play into this. I was saying that ancient grapples aren't disrupted by knockdown, the grapple can't be interrupted and that the grapple is hard to avoid when close, almost impossibly so if you're not prepared. Trying to not get close isn't much of a help in a horde game that spawns them everywhere. You can stay at low level for a while then, nobody forces you to do high level things if you don't want to so you can't speak for me about nullifiers being a problem I'm not able to avoid the grapple at close range and spawning them everywhere isn't something big of a problem, you have many things to deal with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844448 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, Keylan118 said: Being sleepy doesn't necessarily impair your reaction time. In fact, if I remember correctly, staying up long enough can pump your body full of adrenaline to keep you awake which might actually help your reaction time (I don't actually know though, don't quote me). That's not stormtrooper spray. That's dodging. Their accuracy is so ridiculously good when you're not moving it's suicide to stop moving (which is very bad design since people need breaks (short ones to re-situate themselves) and my break shouldn't be 'I've vaporized everything in the room' since I can't really do that in endless modes like survival without a nuke frame). The sheer amount of clutter on screen is going to prevent anyone with a one-track mind like me from paying attention to everything at once and always being a perfect beast at everything I do. If I'm shooting something, I want to be focused on shooting it, not countering the nullifiers, shockwaves, energy leeches, and arbitration drones at the same time as shooting that thing. Sure, I can generally keep up, but all it takes is one mistake when outside a tank frame, and mistakes will be plentiful with all that clutter. I see now that I may have miscommunicated some things. First off, the 'energy drain' I mentioned was from their nullifying of abilities, meaning you have to recast them, meaning you lose energy. Secondly, they are a tank. They take more hits than those around them. That's a tank. Sure, you can annihilate them quickly, but not relatively when everything else is instantly dead. They're even tankier against certain attacks (abilities). Thirdly, they're a 'buffer' as in a buff-giver, like the shield ospreys. They make those around them tankier by hiding them in their bubble, preventing abilities from working (and requiring you take down the bubble first before dealing damage from outside it). They also indirectly buff everyone behind them by blocking line-of-fire and punch-through (but at least abilities work on those). I'm really slow when being very sleepy, borderline garbage so I think you may want to avoid high level if you can't handle it and even just running around reduce their accuracy, more when you're bullet jumping I guess you can stay at low level and get any hard to get things by trading platinum to get mods like adaptation if you're one-track minded, you have multiple ways to get things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadVoid118 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, 844448 said: You can stay at low level for a while then, nobody forces you to do high level things if you don't want to so you can't speak for me about nullifiers being a problem I'm not able to avoid the grapple at close range and spawning them everywhere isn't something big of a problem, you have many things to deal with that I can't stay at a low level if I want some important things like arcanes or Adaptation, or Rivens (though, granted, none of these are Corpus-specific. It is still a problem when they do show up, though.) I can 100% speak to you about nullifiers being a problem so long as they spawn. They're not fun to play against, high or low level. Their difficulty, while somewhat relevant, is irrelevant to the fact that they're not fun to fight. Most people who like them only do so because the nullifiers "increase" difficulty and require you to not be brain-dead, but there are plenty of other methods of getting a similar result without an enemy that is so irritating. Also, huh? You're saying you can't avoid the grapple, them spawning everywhere isn't a problem because... why? They unavoidably grapple you? And what things do I have to 'deal' with grapple other than killing the enemy or being invisible? I can't stop their grapple with knockdown. I can't interrupt their grapple unless they die. I'm not sure what you're saying about the grapple. Just now, 844448 said: I'm really slow when being very sleepy, borderline garbage so I think you may want to avoid high level if you can't handle it and even just running around reduce their accuracy, more when you're bullet jumping I guess you can stay at low level and get any hard to get things by trading platinum to get mods like adaptation if you're one-track minded, you have multiple ways to get things For the record, I already have the mods and stuff I want, but it was a slog getting there. I'm not bad enough to not be able to do hard content. However, for me, that content is actually hard unlike how others say 'there's no hard content in Warframe' and so on. If they want to add harder content for all the people who complain about how easy Warframe is and lock substantial rewards behind that content, I will disapprove because I will have to be carried or follow a guide (I already follow a stupid amount of guides for Warframe). Using platinum should not be a requirement to acquire anything of meaningful substance in the game. Platinum is a premium currency. Cosmetics for platinum is fine. If the only way for me to actually acquire something is platinum and that something has an important effect on gameplay, the game's no longer F2P. Sure, I can technically get it via certain content, but it doesn't matter if I can't reasonably complete that content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 It's odd that people just complain about things in the forum but when you go into the game no one cares, maybe because it's not hard to deal with them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveNot Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kylo. said: What are they gonna do? Throw their melee weapon at you? Are you asking them to throw more Corpus Trenchers at us? Nully Corpus Trencher.... Edited June 3, 2019 by LoveNot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadVoid118 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 minute ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said: It's odd that people just complain about things in the forum but when you go into the game no one cares, maybe because it's not hard to deal with them? What, you want random people in public matches just start complaining about things? I'll complain/agree/argue about a problem if someone brings it up, but I'm not going to scream at random people about all the problems with Warframe. I assume most people are somewhat the same, or just don't feel like talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxity Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said: It's odd that people just complain about things in the forum but when you go into the game no one cares, maybe because it's not hard to deal with them? I play private and avoid corpus nodes for the most part. S'why you won't hear me complaining about them in matches. Would you rather public matches be filled with people *@##$ing about nullifiers? Game's already getting enough community issues, surely it doesn't need one more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluff-E-Kitty Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Neutralizing_Justice +multi shot if your having issues. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxity Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Neutralizing_Justice +multi shot if your having issues. How wonderful that'd be as a general mod. Or at least one for a non-garbage weapon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluff-E-Kitty Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Paradoxity said: How wonderful that'd be as a general mod. Or at least one for a non-garbage weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5H4DE Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Imo, nullifiers should pause (and disable activation of) abilities while players are inside the bubbles and not outright cancel them, that alone would make them a lot less frustrating to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integra. Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) Nullifiers just shouldn't PURGE all buffs but only PAUSE them until you get out of the field - then it will be ok and challenging. The unfun part is the need to recast the buffs every time. Edited June 3, 2019 by Integra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysus41 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I'm getting flashbacks going through this thread. Looking back at when Nullifiers were first added and all the years of feedback, anger, and community infighting to get this enemy removed or hell, just tweaked, right after it's nice to see that DE learned... Absolutely nothing from it. I bet when they added that tin can above the field people thought they had "won," and wouldn't see this sort of thing again. So who's ready for another 3 years of talking about Nullifiers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxity Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Jaysus41 said: I'm getting flashbacks going through this thread. Looking back at when Nullifiers were first added and all the years of feedback, anger, and community infighting to get this enemy removed or hell, just tweaked, right after it's nice to see that DE learned... Absolutely nothing from it. I bet when they added that tin can above the field people thought they had "won," and wouldn't see this sort of thing again. So who's ready for another 3 years of talking about Nullifiers? Sad part is it's not even that hard a fix. Either have the null bubble pause/block abilities, or have it just be a null bubble- remove the shield component. Of course, nah, never gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)FlameDivinity Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 6 hours ago, Kylo. said: How are Melee Nullifiers annoying? They can't shoot you, you need to watch out for them a bit and can't just mindlessly play but other than that they can't do anything. They teleport to you or pull you to them if they are just melee enemies with nullifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberStar Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 4 hours ago, 844448 said: What if I tell you I play the game more often being extremely sleepy than not? They have this stormtrooper spray if you don't stand still MOA stomps have 1.5 seconds for the MOA to lift one leg before the stomp happens, maybe you want to try solo on venus or phobos and observe a bit. Harpoon attack is no different, you can see the rope coming at you and you can roll sideways to avoid it Perhaps, a solo strolling like I often do can help you understand the enemies Perhaps learning to grow up might help you more. I play exclusively solo, and have since the Founders pack was something you can still buy. Thanks for the patronizing "advice" though, I know just where to file it. -*flush!*- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberStar Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Keylan118 said: What, you want random people in public matches just start complaining about things? I'll complain/agree/argue about a problem if someone brings it up, but I'm not going to scream at random people about all the problems with Warframe. I assume most people are somewhat the same, or just don't feel like talking. Plus, what good would it do in the middle of a mission? If I stop to type how I think Nullifiers and "every enemy with a harpoon attack" aren't a great design... what would most likely happen is a Nullifier or Ancient walking up behind me and fragging me just to help illustrate the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, EmberStar said: Plus, what good would it do in the middle of a mission? If I stop to type how I think Nullifiers and "every enemy with a harpoon attack" aren't a great design... what would most likely happen is a Nullifier or Ancient walking up behind me and fragging me just to help illustrate the point. I didn't mention public games, why don't you ask your guild or even the general chat(even though it's chaotic you can still start a conversation). Serious question: do you have trouble with the harpoon attack? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmberStar Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said: I didn't mention public games, why don't you ask your guild or even the general chat(even though it's chaotic you can still start a conversation). Serious question: do you have trouble with the harpoon attack? Seriously? I don't need to "have trouble with it" to think that it's a bad design. I play solo, in a solo guild. So I'll just type to myself then? Oh, right, I already know what I think of those enemies. General chat is... even more pointless than continuing to talk to you, though only barely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipputer Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 The number of options available to deal with nullifier-type enemies is high. The least of which is moving out of position to avoid having them nullify your abilities, should you not be able to deal with them right away. That's not too much to ask and if you're going to complain that it tears down your defenses or leaves you unable to defend a position then that's the entire point. I'm tired of people saying they're bad design. Having a counter to our frame powers isn't, "bad design." They have a very clear area where your powers don't work, you have numerous options to destroy that area (or them, directly) and you can see them coming from a mile away. Not being able to deal with that doesn't make it, "bad design." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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