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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd love to know how bad people's builds must be that they can't take armour based frames past level 75 enemies. Whilst running Mot earlier I was surviving level 75 enemies just fine, and that's with their 3x damage buff.

because if you have adapation for later on it gibs your own 3 and its armor generation. and once again im assuming your useing umbral build all the way, which im trying to "avoid" because i prefer non meta builds but this just seems more and more like you must play x y z which as a meta breaker. is kinda urksome. 

hell in example while yes it ticked people off i went range/duration limbo to control tilesets an effective use it for arbitrations. and that armor buff has a tiemr you need to track or you get screwed out, even if i get that sweet 1500 armor mid combat forget about buff lose it die. does happen so its not really about "bad" builds. more like way to much that i now have to track that makes it very painfull and annoying, 

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4 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

~snip~

Someone's jimmies are rustled. I mean, to go back to my posts from last week and type a virtually indecipherable rant at me... 

3 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

because if you have adapation for later on it gibs your own 3 and its armor generation. and once again im assuming your useing umbral build all the way, which im trying to "avoid" because i prefer non meta builds but this just seems more and more like you must play x y z which as a meta breaker. is kinda urksome.

I don't know what that has to do with the price of fish. I survived against enemies beyond level 75 with 3x damage. If you're struggling against enemies at a basic level 75 then your build has to be poor or you're not a great player.

I don't have adaptation, I was using an unfinished build.

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On 2019-06-16 at 6:58 PM, toyetic said:

Because it was 
A. not interactive - as they said in the workshop it was largely considered a set and forget ability where you could just press 2 and only worry about refreshing it maybe once or twice throughout the mission. Considering the rest of his kit was(or rather currently is) at best lackluster and at worst terrible this being his best ability meant you weren't playing an interesting warframe as much as you were playing a walking weapon. Which while some people found fun almost all can agree is a bad way to design a character.

and B. Wasn't that good all things considered. Yes being immortal in warframe is ok but is far from great. Frames like pre rework zephyr could be almost as immortal as wukong and were considered just as bad. Immortality is almost always worse than a frame being given damage/cc/ or buffs. If you look at a lot of other frames that can be functionally immortal such as inaros rhino and nidus they're considered great because along with their tankiness they have the ability to cc/dps/or buff a team in some manner. The ability to tank is an after thought and isn't something that in the current state of warframe is all that important 

so any one who used defy would have to recast it to refresh allot, because enemies in higher level content just 1 hit you. 2 in order for defy to stay active at all times you need rage/hunter and to stay in combat which meant refreshing your defy could kill you. i count coutn how many times i thought i was safe to fresh and got gibbed. 

having a passive that is nice till you used the passive feels bad. try runnign an arbi die from getting 1 hit/insta'd even with armor. then enjoy playing hide an seek cuz you know a have no passive, b have no way to reset it other then to get "revived" which puts team down a guy, your armor buff now must be tracked constatly sure you have an icon, but would flow better having your frame do a color pulse/ somethign to let you know its near ending so you dont have to constantly look off watching your own frame to check your buff, fact that recasting also strips your last buff combined with that your defy dmg is pretty bad vs grineer, armored targets, its just a knock down(if they in range) and 2 seconds of unvul( no mods)  

 

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5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Someone's jimmies are rustled. I mean, to go back to my posts from last week and type a virtually indecipherable rant at me... 

I don't know what that has to do with the price of fish. I survived against enemies beyond level 75 with 3x damage. If you're struggling against enemies at a basic level 75 then your build has to be poor or you're not a great player.

I don't have adaptation, I was using an unfinished build.

i own adapation, which does gib his ability to get stacks for his 3, something that allows him to survive when his buff falls of. aka later on content. when armor scaling really cant keep pace with pure dmg reduction. 

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Posted (edited)

How is the reworked Defy more interactive?  In the old Defy, I was able to use different weapons to fight high level hard hitting enemies, and this gave a great feeling of a bad ass fighter especially in solo. 

Now, I can just spin around for few seconds just to deal some unreliable and unpredictable damage.  Moreover, the reworked Cloud Worker is far more useful than this in terms of cheating death by going invisible and gaining health.

Please improve the old Defy instead of completely removing it, thanks.

Edited by modalmojo
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4 minutes ago, modalmojo said:

How is the reworked Defy more interactive?  In the old Defy, I was able to use different weapons to fight the really hard hitting enemies, and this gave a great feeling of a bad ass fighter. 

Same reason a stage isn't considered interactive, you were using it as a platform for something else.

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So do to dmg reduction applying before his 3 it reduces the overall "armor" and dmg he gets deals, which if intended seems silly makes sense but is silly, if not its a bug, as for cloudwalker if u hit melee while in cloud u get stuck skidding till cloud ends and then you do a slam attack.

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Someone here said he ran sorties and didn't use the old Defy.  In this situation, you can actually bring almost any frame to run that kind of sortie.

The major reason to use the old Defy was you knew that you needed to deal with really hard hitting enemies or heavy damages, and you wanted to deal with it face to face like a badass, not doing it in a clever way like avoiding the damage, etc., that was particular true in solo where you did not have team support.

Please improve the old Defy instead of mainly going invisible for few seconds to gain health, or spinning for few seconds without doing anything, thank you.

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3 minutes ago, modalmojo said:

Someone here said he ran sorties and didn't use the old Defy.

As if anyone could forget my name, I'm offended.

4 minutes ago, modalmojo said:

The major reason to use the old Defy was you knew that you needed to deal with really hard hitting enemies or heavy damages, and you wanted to deal with it face to face like a badass, not doing it in a clever way like avoiding the damage

I mean, to be fair all of my damage avoidance whilst doing it came from zipping around with my melee weapon and crashing into enemies before they could hit me very hard...

Or what, did you think I ran Defyless and didn't use Primal Fury? I just opted to use a completely abilityless Warframe? Pfft. No, I used Primal Fury and I smacked the hell out of the enemies like a "badass".

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41 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

i own adapation, which does gib his ability to get stacks for his 3

How does it gib his ability to get stacks? Last i checked he is invulnrable during the Defy and stacking mechanic. Does adaptation reduce the damage you get while invulnerable? If so i have not noticed because im using adaptation and getting 1500 armor easily on decent enemies.

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Just now, MonkeyKV said:

How does it gib his ability to get stacks? Last i checked he is invulnrable during the Defy and stacking mechanic. Does adaptation reduce the damage you get while invulnerable? If so i have not noticed because im using adaptation and getting 1500 armor easily on decent enemies.

on enemies over a certain  lvl yes i have no issues, just this wonky "limbo" tween enemies lvls higher up lvls do enough dmg even with reduction to cap you, just lower lvl stuff you wotn reach cap unless your running strength to multiply it out. 

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that an i feel his armor "buff" is still very weak trying to run harder content and even with max armor an adapation getting shredded by heavy gunners. sure i can dip into cloud restore some but they just reshred me. kinda making me need to effectily "cloud" 90% and before you ask de monkey an call me "bad player" again im running hp mods and primed vigor, to increase that "cusion" for armor to work same for adaptation. 

also in several missions iv had my clone be ignored as it fails to melee and i get shot at.

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1 minute ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

on enemies over a certain  lvl yes i have no issues, just this wonky "limbo" tween enemies lvls higher up lvls do enough dmg even with reduction to cap you, just lower lvl stuff you wotn reach cap unless your running strength to multiply it out. 

Are you not running strength? at least one mod? Both range and strentgh make it easier to hit the cap be from more enemies shooting or the multiplier. Running a unmodded ability and complaining you're not getting the most of it seems weird. 

They made it very easy to get max stacks in my opinion. Any decent leveled enemies just takes 1 shooting at you. I thought it would be something really annoying to maintain, i was mistaken.

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3 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

that an i feel his armor "buff" is still very weak trying to run harder content and even with max armor an adapation getting shredded by heavy gunners. sure i can dip into cloud restore some but they just reshred me. kinda making me need to effectily "cloud" 90% and before you ask de monkey an call me "bad player" again im running hp mods and primed vigor, to increase that "cusion" for armor to work same for adaptation. 

also in several missions iv had my clone be ignored as it fails to melee and i get shot at.

You got some arcane guardians? those definitly help. I am running 2 along with adaptation and umbral vit+intensify

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22 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

You got some arcane guardians? those definitly help. I am running 2 along with adaptation and umbral vit+intensify

sure ill go get arcanes to fix a problem there cheap to get right? thats not a fix thats a bandaid. as for strength yes im runnign strength i have blind rage atm equipped thinking it might change how much armor he got which it does not. 

needing to abuse arcanes to increase survival? 

also nor does it fix the other qualms i have, that A. defy eventually becoems useless for the content i used him for prior to rework with how damage scales. B. that my clone does not draw agro/ gets stuck on random things. 

 

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26 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not asking anything. 

Sitting here silently judging though... that's another story. :wink:

wanna call me bad again?  when other players are haveing the same issues? that higher level content he stutters and flops? 

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28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Sitting here silently judging though.

May i join you?

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1 minute ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

wanna call me bad again?  when other players are haveing the same issues? that higher level content he stutters and flops? 

If you're referring to level 75 enemies? Yes.

2 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

needing to abuse arcanes

"Hey guys, I have a problem where I'm finding that 'x' is lacking".

"Well sir, there's this helpful thing called an Arcane, it's just like modding but it has unique effects that could solve your problem"

"AbUSe! BanDaID!"

Please kindly unmod your Warframe, otherwise I shall accuse you of abusing the modding system. /s

3 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

May i join you?

By all means, I also have popcorn.

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

If you're referring to level 75 enemies? Yes.

"Hey guys, I have a problem where I'm finding that 'x' is lacking".

"Well sir, there's this helpful thing called an Arcane, it's just like modding but it has unique effects that could solve your problem"

"AbUSe! BanDaID!"

Please kindly unmod your Warframe, otherwise I shall accuse you of abusing the modding system. /s

By all means, I also have popcorn.

cool continue to insult me go for it, while yes arcanes exist to fix them not every one has them nor can get them easily. unless your telling me to go "buy" them from players sure mabye that will work once i get some plat mabye. my point was your telling me to use things that i dont have to fix something that should not have been an issue?that defy falls off at higher content? that my clone prior to last hot fix royally sucked when my c.o iron staff cant work cuz he wont use my status filled pistol? that in hrigher content that he is super micro mange, because of how many things you need to track in order to a stay alive, that if you do goof/die that you eventually end up with out a passive? 

i thought forums where a place to interact and talk about issues your running into so they get looked at fixed like the cloen not useing proper weapons? but instyead i have a member of the community and d.e insulting me instead

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7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

If you're referring to level 75 enemies? Yes.

"Hey guys, I have a problem where I'm finding that 'x' is lacking".

"Well sir, there's this helpful thing called an Arcane, it's just like modding but it has unique effects that could solve your problem"

"AbUSe! BanDaID!"

Please kindly unmod your Warframe, otherwise I shall accuse you of abusing the modding system. /s

By all means, I also have popcorn.

also i was useing an example that simple misplays can screw you over, in example the lvl 75% enemies loseign track of your clone/armor buff can easily get you killed. which was point im making. and i even made a point that they should add something to the skin to help you see when it ends. or close to nezha has the ring that vanishes, even though they have the "gauge" for it as well. just a clarification issue, but thanks for making me and my input feel very unwelcome

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40 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

You got some arcane guardians? those definitly help. I am running 2 along with adaptation and umbral vit+intensify

and to answer this no, the arcanes i get when i run eidolins are the ones people dont use that i get stuck with cuz rng hates me. also im useing primed vigor, vitality and blind rage. and was just listing of issues i ran into.

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2 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

my clone prior to last hot fix royally sucked when my c.o iron staff cant work cuz he wont use my status filled pistol?

Just because you want something doesnt mean everyone wants it. I HATE that he uses a different weapon than you. 99% of the time when i am not doing any content that requires my stat stick for galdiator set i have melee unequiped so i can have my clone using whatever AoE wepon i feel like using and helping me clear the maps instead of running around with a melee and not getting to anything.

4 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

telling me to use things that i dont have to fix something that should not have been an issue?

This is a problem in mentality. You either cant play well, are not modded properly or are tackling content out of your equipement reach and complaining that you cant do it because you dont have XYZ.

I play volt with all sprint speed mods, all power strenth and only vitality and i can survive anything in the game (without sitting behind his shield). If you cannot survive with wukong the problem is on you, you just cant seem to accept it.

Try a different build for a bit. I am running: Primed Flow, equilibrium, primed continuity, Narrow minded, Umbral Vitality, Umbral Intensify, primal rage and adaptation.

This gives good multipliers and healing, just over 1m on defy buff and just over 5s of cloud time. Equilibrium because i run naramon and a wyrm prime with synth set for constant health orbs and knockdown immmunities on negate

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Wait, so you're telling me that you think your Warframe should be capable of taking on the higher tiers of content when it's not actually fully modded yet? And yes, that includes Arcanes. That's not how progression works.

Your issue is of your own making. If you're struggling to take damage there are options available to help you. Decrying said options as "abuse" and "bandaids" is pretty ridiculous. Is Vitality a bandaid? Flow? Serration?

It's silly. If you don't have said options yet then you know what you need to work towards so that you can fight that higher tier of content.

Really dude? Really... 

*Sigh*.

To clarify something, I haven't actually insulted you. Earlier I stated that if you're struggling against level 75 enemies you have a bad build or you're a bad player, it's come to light you've got a bad build. I've mocked your word choice and judged you for your posts, but I haven't yet insulted you. I apologise if you feel insulted by anything I've said however.

callign someone "bad" is tech insulting. encouraging "silent judging" also as such. and yes i have several war frames with out arcanes that can do arbitration with little issues with kits as is and just mods. and my wukong used to be able to as well.

hildryn,limbo, old wukong, nekros(my crappy modded one) all can run an aribitration without arcane. do i have arcane now on my hildryin? sure ones i managed to get as i played through just low ranked arcane barriers for chance at more shields. 

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2 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Just because you want something doesnt mean everyone wants it. I HATE that he uses a different weapon than you. 99% of the time when i am not doing any content that requires my stat stick for galdiator set i have melee unequiped so i can have my clone using whatever AoE wepon i feel like using and helping me clear the maps instead of running around with a melee and not getting to anything.

This is a problem in mentality. You either cant play well, are not modded properly or are tackling content out of your equipement reach and complaining that you cant do it because you dont have XYZ.

I play volt with all sprint speed mods, all power strenth and only vitality and i can survive anything in the game (without sitting behind his shield). If you cannot survive with wukong the problem is on you, you just cant seem to accept it.

Try a different build for a bit. I am running: Primed Flow, equilibrium, primed continuity, Narrow minded, Umbral Vitality, Umbral Intensify, primal rage and adaptation.

This gives good multipliers and healing, just over 1m on defy buff and just over 5s of cloud time. Equilibrium because i run naramon and a wyrm prime with synth set for constant health orbs and knockdown immmunities on negate

once again to the not play well while, i never said i failed at higher content just things i run into, and 2 as stated the "twin" was designed to do what your not, so setting up a c.o synergy was well within a thing he can do that on release was not working. that they fixed because players pointed it out. as for your 3 sure you get lots of armopr but the lowered range destroys your "knock" down you do to mobs unless your on them. nor does ur "mods" fix the thing i was complaining about. that wukong is a micro manage simulator. with clone, clone hp,ur hp, energy, armor buff, enemy levels so you know when to dodge with 2/3 depending on whats around you to stay alive. theres allot of little things to track, more so then any other "frame" nor does it salve me and others pointing out that your "passive" is rng that you can lose you passive unlike any other frame. 

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3 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

for your 3 sure you get lots of armopr but the lowered range destroys your "knock" down you do to mobs unless your on them

Konockdown is irrelevant so is the taunt range. Range is a dumpstat again for wukong for a non gimmick CC build.

4 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

"twin" was designed to do what your not,

No. "He's got your back" was his design philosophy on that switcheroo weapon thing. Are you going to use a pistol and bolster HIS C.O? All you are interested is on him bostering your melee for CO. Nothing to do with design flaws, you just want what you want.

6 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

wukong is a micro manage simulator

Keep defy up every 1m is hardly micro manage. You sound like someone who enjoyed old defy toggle and forget invincibility. Clone needs no micro manage, he costs nothing (25) to resummon and lasts forever, they could eaasily have made him duration based and would have been ok.

9 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

setting up a c.o synergy

Still possible. Slash, impact and corrosive on Primal Fury, viral radiation and whatever else on your sentinel. Both you and clone benefits this way while wacking with a already over the top staff. Not that C.O is needed for anything. They have given us 30+% slash damage on the staff on top of base 30% status chance. Doesnt need C.O to "scale"

11 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

hp, energy, armor buff, enemy levels so you know when to dodge with 2/3 depending on whats around you to stay alive

1 armor buff with a 1m duration on build i showed you. Everything else is not specific to wukong. Back to old defy argument i guess.

12 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

once again to the not play well

Your are making it hard.

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