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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong


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I know sometimes I get ahead of myself, and judge way to much. But this time I really gave it some thought, and I really hope Wukong's 4 gets changed soon. I know he just got done with a rework but, Why carry a melee weapon on you and also have a melee ability? I just think n feel that Wukong's 4 is just straight pointless. I just know you can make Wukong's 4 WAY better then this garbage 4 ability. I'm not yelling at you for it or anything, all im trying to say is Why have 2 melee weapons?

 

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I really wish the clone would use his gun when I'm in primal fury.  The ai just isn't as effective with primal fury as he is with a gun.  As it stands your better off using a zaw  over primal fury since keeping the clone using a good primary like amprex is far better than it trying to use iron staff.  This make wukongs "ultimate" a dead skill.

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43 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

DE just killed wukong with that defy nerf LOL

"Defy nerf" its waaaaaaay to harsh TBH. Without arcanes wukong can tank like a madman on Mot and the added utility arround his kit makes him way more powerfull than before the change...

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1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Its like 4 seconds.

2 by default.

Never has been an energy drain on the ability, it was one of those weird ones with a different drain criteria, 'x' energy per unit of distance moved.

If we had that same drain now it could be pretty crazy with how fast we move.

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54 minutes ago, BigBoss5762 said:

Is the released of WuKong new skin being delayed?

Not so much "delayed" as "released separately from the rework".  I'm not sure why they released the rework early (it's buggy enough that I'm reasonably confident they rushed it out for some reason, and that's why the skin didn't release with it), but they did.  On the dev workshop stream from 2 days ago, Rebecca said "30% chance it's coming this week", while Pablo said "no chance for this week", so it's likely coming sometime within the next 2-3 weeks, but that's the closest we've got to a timeline for it.

53 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Eesh. I’ve just seen the actual timer. Its like 4 seconds. Thats awful. They should have just gone with energy drain.

It actually works surprisingly well.  With how fast you move in it, you don't need any more time than that; as long as you even vaguely try to move, you'll be healed to full from any amount and be able to get almost anywhere you could see when you triggered the ability (exceptions for plains and vallis, obv).

The duration seems short in the context of his old kit, but the rework changed it fundamentally and it fits quite well now.  His new kit is really quite hectic in comparison to the old, with jumping in and out of both defy and cloudwalker pretty regularly, all while you swing a big stick around. 

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Just now, modalmojo said:

Can we remove the timer on Cloud Walker as it already drains energy?

It does not drain energy.  It takes a very small energy cost (25 base) to enter Cloudwalker and nothing more.  It's just a normal duration-based ability now, just with a short duration.

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1 hour ago, Agayek said:

It actually works surprisingly well.  With how fast you move in it, you don't need any more time

But what is the reason for it? Is there seriously any truly good reason why Cloud Walker had to be nerfed like this? The ability was barely used in its old state and it just seems like they've traded one extreme for another. Not to mention the augment has now officially been made 100% useless thanks to this nerf.

I mean it's not like Cloud Walker is over powered. Staying in it for forty seconds would not have done anyone any harm and neither would an energy drain version. If you want to argue "Well it'd be an AFK tool" I'd like to point out it was hardly ever used like that in the old version and we have far better AFK frames out there, like Limbo for instance.

Honestly, I was really looking forward to zipping around the Plains and Vallis with the new Cloud Walker and actually building for its augment. The excitement has officially died for me. I really hope DE see the error in this and just give the old duration back. It really makes no sense at all.

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3 hours ago, CodeUltimate said:

DE just killed wukong with that defy nerf LOL

i agree with this, tryign higher end content just feels rougher, even if "costs" are allot less. I hope you have energy pies with hoist often you will be spamming things to dodge, dip, duck out and into combat. and as for the "heal its cool, except with certain enemies still 1 hitting u with 1500 armor buff.  

2 hours ago, KittySkin said:

"Defy nerf" its waaaaaaay to harsh TBH. Without arcanes wukong can tank like a madman on Mot and the added utility arround his kit makes him way more powerfull than before the change...

and you probably built, umbral which iallows any warframe to be super beefy. only difference is you can drop "fiber" for something else. 

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Just now, TheGodofWiFi said:

But what is the reason for it? Is there seriously any truly good reason why Cloud Walker had to be nerfed like this? The ability was barely used in its old state and it just seems like they've traded one extreme for another. Not to mention the augment has now officially been made 100% useless thanks to this nerf.

I mean it's not like Cloud Walker is over powered. Staying in it for forty seconds would not have done anyone any harm and neither would an energy drain version. If you want to argue "Well it'd be an AFK tool" I'd like to point out it was hardly ever used like that in the old version and we have far better AFK frames out there, like Limbo for instance.

Honestly, I was really looking forward to zipping around the Plains and Vallis with the new Cloud Walker and actually building for its augment. The excitement has officially died for me. I really hope DE see the error in this and just give the old duration back. It really makes no sense at all.

I'm not seeing how the augment has been made useless?  It gives 14 seconds of invisibility to nearby party members when you use it.  It was never great, because the invisibility breaks on damage (I assume it still does, haven't tested it though), but the same functionality still exists.

As for staying in Cloudwalker for 40 seconds: Why?  What purpose would that serve?  It's a movement tool now, nothing more or less, unlike before where it was literally useless.

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On 2019-06-17 at 2:46 PM, DeMonkey said:

Realistically it'll be more than that. 

225 base armour, most will probably end up running an Umbral build which when maxed and used with the set provides you with 658 armour, 2158 armour post Defy. That alone is ~88% DR. Throw in an Arcane Guardian and you'll hit 90% DR, or don't because ~88% DR is usable enough anyway.

after playign new wu its kinda "manditory" to go umbral build to survive. 

On 2019-06-17 at 4:22 PM, DeMonkey said:

I probably won't even bother with Adaptation, and will instead try and work the cloud usage into normal gameplay so that I'm healing everytime I'm gap closing.

^ adaptation helps him survive when your buff dips/drops off cuz well its short duration compared to several other frames reductions. 

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5 hours ago, Agayek said:

I'm not seeing how the augment has been made useless?  It gives 14 seconds of invisibility to nearby party members when you use it.  It was never great, because the invisibility breaks on damage (I assume it still does, haven't tested it though), but the same functionality still exists.

It's been made useless since now it requires constant spamming, whereas beforehand Wukong could act as a sort of moving safe zone the others could take a breather in. The augment already needed a buff so that allies wouldn't break stealth when directly in Wukong's cloud range, but they didn't even do that.

5 hours ago, Agayek said:

As for staying in Cloudwalker for 40 seconds: Why?

You can't turn that question around, that's a fallacy. I'll answer anyway; because it's more suvivability that way, makes it a viable method of travel and it was that duration before the rework. And it's fun. That all important word everyone seems to forget.

The question is why was it nerfed? What purpose did it serve?

5 hours ago, Agayek said:

It's a movement tool now, nothing more or less

And it would be a more fun and usefull movement tool if it retained its original duration or was even made into a energy drain ability. Honestly I don't know why you're arguing for a nerf that simply was not needed at all.

However you slice it, pre-rework Defy was more powerful than the current one. It wasn't an interactive ability at all and needed a change, but it was still a big hit to Wukong. There should have been no nerfs to his other abilities, only buffs to make up for it. Especially Cloud Walker, which as we agree was basically useless before the rework. Why would you nerf an ability that no one used ever?

I do not get Pablo at all. He just made Cloud Walker go in the complete opposite direction; fast Cloud, low duration. He never even explained his reasons either. There is absolutely no way Cloud Walker is an overpowered ability that interferes with another persons gameplay.

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6 minutes ago, Agayek said:

I'm not seeing how the augment has been made useless?  It gives 14 seconds of invisibility to nearby party members when you use it.  It was never great, because the invisibility breaks on damage (I assume it still does, haven't tested it though), but the same functionality still exists.

As for staying in Cloudwalker for 40 seconds: Why?  What purpose would that serve?  It's a movement tool now, nothing more or less, unlike before where it was literally useless.

because people like me used its older version to go through rooms in survival and get near oxygen pods pop out snag it fight things, cloud walk to another place.

while yes defy was "invul god" you could still get stun chained an die(which is silly when it happens) . as it stands now his kit is way to micro manage, with all the short durations, and clone you need to watch hp bar off. cuz its not just you that heals off 2. its kinda.. well over interactive. and very annoying. 

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5 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

It's been made useless since now it requires constant spamming, whereas beforehand Wukong could act as a sort of moving safe zone the others could take a breather in. The augment already needed a buff so that allies wouldn't break stealth when directly in Wukong's cloud range, but they didn't even do that.

You can't turn that question around, that's a fallacy. I'll answer anyway; because it's more suvivability that way, makes it a viable method of travel and it was that duration before the rework. The question is why was it nerfed? What purpose did it serve?

And it would be a more fun and usefull movement tool if it retained its original duration. Honestly I don't know why you're arguing for a nerf that simply was not needed at all.

honestly so far his change feels clunkier,  and i agree with you, while deff probably needed a change. i feel its current version is off. and cloud walker should not been touched

And one just seems odd. it costs energy to "sic" my clone on people when khora does it free if i recall. it scales off my hp like crazy... but if im gun its melee, enemies still aim me over it so why the huge hp pool???

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1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You can't turn that question around, that's a fallacy. I'll answer anyway; because it's more suvivability that way, makes it a viable method of travel and it was that duration before the rework. The question is why was it nerfed? What purpose did it serve?

And it would be a more fun and usefull movement tool if it retained its original duration. Honestly I don't know why you're arguing for a nerf that simply was not needed at all.

1) Cloudwalker was changed because, as DE has made abundantly clear, passive frames are not how they want the game to be; they want all the frames to be active to one degree or another, and Wukong was brought from basically the most passive to being towards the top of most active.

2) Mostly I'm arguing that the original form of Cloudwalker was boring.  It was slow, ponderous, almost entirely passive, and thoroughly non-interactive.  The change fits much better with both his new kit and DE's general design philosophy and vision for the game.

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Just now, Agayek said:

1) Cloudwalker was changed because, as DE has made abundantly clear, passive frames are not how they want the game to be; they want all the frames to be active to one degree or another, and Wukong was brought from basically the most passive to being towards the top of most active.

2) Mostly I'm arguing that the original form of Cloudwalker was boring.  It was slow, ponderous, almost entirely passive, and thoroughly non-interactive.  The change fits much better with both his new kit and DE's general design philosophy and vision for the game.

so you enjoy a frame that you need to micromanage? clone, armor buff, your hp, clones hp, if 4 active your energy? 

as for "passive" wth??? you needed to be in combat for ha/rage defy build to work, soon as combat not around you you lose all energy then get insta'd by anything

like litterly you had to keep moving and fighting non stop. while with limbo i can just chain cc the entire map and kill it as slow/fast as i chose

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21 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

i agree with this, tryign higher end content just feels rougher, even if "costs" are allot less. I hope you have energy pies with hoist often you will be spamming things to dodge, dip, duck out and into combat. and as for the "heal its cool, except with certain enemies still 1 hitting u with 1500 armor buff.  

and you probably built, umbral which iallows any warframe to be super beefy. only difference is you can drop "fiber" for something else. 

Umbral Ember its not beefy. Umbral builds helps frames with already high armor. Wukong gains 1500 armor from his defy, that combined with adaptation makes him absurdly tanky, specially considering that he can heal with just a button and a few steps and his clone draws insane ammounts of aggro out of him.

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58 minutes ago, Agayek said:

1) Cloudwalker was changed because, as DE has made abundantly clear, passive frames are not how they want the game to be; they want all the frames to be active to one degree or another, and Wukong was brought from basically the most passive to being towards the top of most active.

That makes zero sense at all. There are so many "passive" frames out there. Rhino, Inaros, Limbo, Zephyr, Chroma, Equinox, Valkyr, Mesa, Nidus, Gara, Loki, Baruuk and now Wisp to name a few have abilities where you essentially just hit and forget it for a long time. So that reason is not true, unless DE plan to nerf all these other frames so that you have to constantly spam abilities. Not everyone likes that constant, almost schizophrenic micro-management way of playing.

Cloud Walker has now been made really good in terms of speed, but there is still zero reason to use it when you only have a pitiful five seconds. All Wukong needed was a new first ability, a change to Defy and huge buffs to his other abilities, then he would have been good. Just making it so that you have to spam his abilities doesn't automatically mean he will be good. There is a reason why Harrow is barely used outside of Tridolon hunts and came lower than a lot of other frames in terms of usage in this chart.

People like being able to just have a break once in a while, that's why a lot of frames have like Mesa have 90% reduction abilities that last for forty seconds or more. Cloud Walker is no different. It's clearly not a good reason, if DE did indeed use it in regards to Cloud Walker.

58 minutes ago, Agayek said:

2) Mostly I'm arguing that the original form of Cloudwalker was boring.  It was slow, ponderous, almost entirely passive, and thoroughly non-interactive.

And now thanks to the speed boost, it isn't. It's actually fun to zip around in, but the duration is just way too short to even enjoy it properly. If spamming an ability every five seconds means it's good to you, then I am honestly happy for you, but again not everyone wants all their abilities to have to be spammed.  Maybe one like Saryn with her spores, or two at a stretch, but DE have basically made three of Wukong's abilities needing to spammed. Cloud Walker literally had no reason to have that kind of nerf. It's supposed to be a method of travel. If you like spamming abilities, then you could just use for two seconds of the forty second duration. Its not like you’d need to stay in Cloud Walker for that long. Arguing in favour of forcing a tiny duration on the ability on the ability purely because you like to spam abilities isn’t a strong point when you could just spam it even with a forty second duration.

As for your point of non-interactvitiy, I will point to my previous Warframe list once again, but specfically Inaros. He is basically the most non interactive frame right now when modded properly. Even without Umbral Mods or Adaption, you have to work hard to die as him. You set one ability and then leave it. With 7k health, Adapation, Primed Flow, Hunter Adrenline and Umbral mods, you're essentially unkillable and you don't even have to do anything. Just tank it. Yet he continues to be one of, if not the most popular tank in the game. Only Rhino can contend, with his 200k+ Iron Skin builds, which also only needs to be done once and then left for a very very long time.

There simply is no case or justification for this nerf. All it did was basically flip Cloud Walker on its head.

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It's a sad day efficiency/Strength WISP of all frames can easily achieve far more actual invincitibility, while attacking, rather than this rework. You can just spam 2 with a weapon rather than use this and tank all the damage you want. hope that helps anyone looking for a decent tank. And sort of like Gara, at least you can get damage some good damage buffs @[DE]Pablo

This is not what Wukong is meant to be. Change his name and stop calling him the "Last immortal"

OR give old Defy back. (and change Cloud Walker). Simple.

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Ive been playing around with builds, and i must say, i think its a really missed opportunity that Enveloping Cloud does not take on all of the new properties of Cloudwalker, aka healing teammates. This would really boost his team synergy, and make him a much more usefull frame. As it stands hes definitely more fun, but his usefulness meter has barely moved. I would really like to see that function being added to either the base ability or his augment.

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