It doesn't matter how many open worlds, railjacks, or new wars DE makes. There's no sustainable, fun, rewarding gameplay loop in the game to make the hundreds of hours of progression worth it.

[Kimimoto]

All these year longs updates provide a week or two in play time. Sometimes not even as much, *cough* The Sacrifice. Meanwhile there still isn't a replacement for the Old Void, there's no satisfying rewarding gameplay loop in the game, which would do A TON to relieve pressure off DE while these year long updates are being made.

Content drought didn't used to be a thing. Nobody truly cared, because you could hop into the Old Void and test your mettle, while potentially getting something good out of it for your effort. Since that was a thing to do, it also gave purpose to ALL THE PROGRESSION IN THE GAME, which is currently useless.

Why forma a weapon? Why get a riven for it? Why even have a build when it's not going to matter, because realistically your not going to fight enemies over level 100.

YOU COULD if these fragmented game modes that have been getting released all shared their best qualities with each other.

--- Arbitrations has good rewards, and reward rotations. But the pacing of rewards is it's problem, it should be similar to ESO, just change it to every 5 minutes instead of 10.

--- ESO has good rewards and the pace of rewards is good. But it's reward rotations should have Arbitrations, so there's a reason to try past wave 8, making progression and good builds fun. Make the rotations ABCCCC

--- Kuva Survival has good rewards, and the pacing is good. But it doesn't give any incentive to not leave, give it the same booster system that Fissures have. 25% booster every 5 minutes up to a 75% cap. Credit > Affinity > Resource > Drop Rate > Bonus Kuva Reward > Repeat.

--- Disruption has the pacing, it has the good reward rotations. DE already know the problem with this one, it's rewards are not rewarding. Not in the slightest... Especially for long term players, the only thing that's actually a reward is a relic. If you already have thousands of relics, then you get absolutely nothing. Hit us with Radiant relics, Endo, Kuva, Fat Credits, Rivens, New Arcanes, there's a ton of stuff Vets want, basically whatever can be translated into platinum.

These game modes just need to be brought in along side Fissures. Fissures since they were added three years ago haven't needed any real adjustments. They'll always provide something to do, that is sustainable content and it's where these other game modes need to be brought. They need to become sustainable for long terms players, to the point where DE can just set them and forget them. If they do content droughts will be a thing of the past, players will have repeatable, fun, rewarding game play loops.

Here's the final thing I'll say, while sometimes the Warframe community may get upset with certain grinds, grind is what we love at the end of the day. We want to play the game and get that next thing. What do you do when there's nothing left to get? I'd ask you to put on the shoes of the MR27s, the OG closed beta, and excal prime boys. They want to play the game as much as anyone else, they love it or else they wouldn't have kept up with it for 6+ years. Let's get sustainable content in the game for them, but also for you. Where ever you are in the game, new player, mid range MR, nearing the end 20+. You're eventually going to be in those shoes whether you like it or not.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Kimimoto

[sharkstrangler]

I will read this when you change the text to be normal instead of being white on black and hurting my eyes.

EDIT: Thanks.

Edited July 16, 2019 by sharkstrangler
Changed

[-QUILL_PETER-]

9 minutes ago, sharkstrangler said:

I will read this when you change the text to be normal instead of being white on black and hurting my eyes.

And *DE* will read it when you put Feedback in the Feedback section like an intellectual.

[Aldain]

Gotta love the fact that "Sustainable and fun" falls behind "Rewards" in these threads fast.

[--Aegis--MR9]

I know you wrote something good and I tried to read it, halfway through first paragraph and I got a headache. I am heading out for more coffee, meanwhile, change your text colors please.

[Femuru]

So im gonna guess this is another "endgame" post which i agree 100% that DE needs one well atleast at some point. rewards play a big part in why ppl play it but if i had to be honest i think the main issue is within the gameplay cuz in the end what some ppl really want is a challenge. the gameplay loop with sorties, arbitrations, eso, kuva, disruption, and more will always have the same outcome because its the same formula most of the time which is have a big wave of brain dead with randomized buff/debuff conditions to survive whatever crazy amount of time into which ppl will go into endurance which is their only form of difficulty but ppl dread it either by the heavy scaling which many cant handle or because its again the same boring loop sitting in a spot for hours. DE said they dont want endurance to be a thing, other ppl find it abit head smashing or boring so why do we do it? because they dont really bring much gameplay wise else where (so if they want us to walk away from that idea then they gotta give challenge by gameplay, i mean dark souls isnt hard cuz of scaling) which runs deep into enemy ai, design, and functionality. maps are almost the same we speed run the same random tiles rather than set maps that is made to transition itself with proper pacing and strategical design. i absolutely love their remasters of maps as i find them beautiful and up to date with today standards but functionality wise, the same formula wont work for an endgame (raids in whatever game u wanna use an example is usually how u transition maps not playing lego wit tiles). balancing and polish is also important trying to have organized set roles and purpose for each frame to endgame is the goal but we dont even have an endgame so now its all screwy but yes obviously they made attempt to ignore it and re try from the ground up for each one to have a different issue without learning what made previous ones good or bad. if they dont do the pve endgame route then there is always pvp but tbh even tho i really wanna see a good pvp version of the game makes me scared on how theyll handle it cuz well look at conclave. they've been making baby steps that left with a good ok but really its that they have so much work ahead of them that makes me look down in my palm for abit. if i had to be harshly honest tho i just think many ppl at DE arent really good at video games, but atleast their good ppl.

right now DE want to fix the new player experience and im gonna be honest im absolutely fine that they are doing that because in reality it is horrible and it needed to fixed as well eventually. theyre making more story which i think is fine since a good amount of ppl want the story to actually progress. id say dont expect anything for the old players this year but if you enjoy what they release then just enjoy it for the time period, vets might leave, vets might stay i cant say the move theyre doing now is bad but yea there isnt anything for us in the mean time till later on maybe. if they make another sad attempt at another endgame tho then so help me ima just try to get into game design class and apply at DE myself to see what the hell theyre doing even. 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by SutomuDrgn

[Kimimoto]

3 hours ago, sharkstrangler said:

I will read this when you change the text to be normal instead of being white on black and hurting my eyes.

Not gunna lie, I copy and pasted it and don't know how to format the backround of the text

EDIT: nvm fixed it

Edited July 15, 2019 by Kimimoto

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Gotta love the fact that "Sustainable and fun" falls behind "Rewards" in these threads fast.

One of the requirements for any sustainable content is rewards, you can't have fissures without prime parts. Idk why that's such a sin?

Edited July 15, 2019 by Kimimoto

[Kimimoto]

48 minutes ago, MR9BCI said:

change your text colors please.

Sorry bby, all fixed

[(XBOX)TogetherTurtle]

4 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Here's the final thing I'll say, while sometimes the Warframe community may get upset with certain grinds, grind is what we love at the end of the day. We want to play the game and get that next thing. What do you do when there's nothing left to get? I'd ask you to put on the shoes of the MR27s, the OG closed beta, and excal prime boys. They want to play the game as much as anyone else, they love it or else they wouldn't have kept up with it for 6+ years. Let's get sustainable content in the game for them, but also for you. Where ever you are in the game, new player, mid range MR, nearing the end 20+. You're eventually going to be in those shoes whether you like it or not.

As an MR 27 I can say I have plenty to do. I still have focus, mods to collect, and a clan to develop. You may not want to do those things, and that's fine, but you can't say they aren't content. They certainly occupy me.

Even when I am done with those things, I certainly won't come to the forums to complain about content. There will never be a gameplay loop satisfying enough to keep everyone playing forever. 

If you're so starved for content, you know you can go play a different game while DE makes more stuff, right? I love Warframe for sure, but I'm not inclined to say its the only good game or even the best game.

[--Aegis--MR9]

Can we get better rewards for Clem mission please .. atleast maroo gives an ayatan! 

[Kimimoto]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)TogetherTurtle said:

As an MR 27 I can say I have plenty to do. I still have focus, mods to collect, and a clan to develop. You may not want to do those things, and that's fine, but you can't say they aren't content. They certainly occupy me.

Even when I am done with those things, I certainly won't come to the forums to complain about content. There will never be a gameplay loop satisfying enough to keep everyone playing forever. 

I've finished focus, have all the mods I need, and I'm already in a clan that I want to be in. I've already done these things.

Even if someone is MR16 and they've done everything they want to in the game, I believe they should have something to throw their builds at. Hell, I have friends even lower than that who have formad and built out a loadout, but once they found out there's nothing to actually do with it they stopped playing the game. That's something that can be prevented, and is a big flaw for the game,

There will never be a gameplay loop that will last forever. That's such a defeatist statement though, that's like saying Railjack won't last forever either, or the open worlds. I think that's pretty close minded and counter productive when considering the games best interest.

Some actual criticism would be welcome though, instead of just naysaying.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Kimimoto

[Volinus7]

Hmmm... so the whole Warframe is not a game anymore but a stream of arbitrary endpoint traps which use rewards as baits?

[Kimimoto]

Just now, Volinus7 said:

Hmmm... so the whole Warframe is not a game anymore but a stream of arbitrary endpoint traps which use rewards as baits?

Are we playing a different game? That's what it's always been. Why do we do anything in the game if not for rewards that are placed as bait? It's called a looter shooter for a reason.

You can describe a gameplay loop as terrifying as you want, it's still just "Do X > Get Y".

Also "arbitrary" doesn't work in this situation, there's no wildcard or chance here, confused on that one.

[Volinus7]

8 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Also "arbitrary" doesn't work in this situation, there's no wildcard or chance here, confused on that one.

But this paragraph...

4 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Why forma a weapon? Why get a riven for it? Why even have a build when it's not going to matter, because realistically your not going to fight enemies over level 100.

That's arbitrary. Many people grind every item in Warframe even they don't need it.

[Kimimoto]

40 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Many people grind every item in Warframe even they don't need it.

But they do need it, because mastery is valuable.

Having a weapon fully forma'd doesn't hold any value, because it's too powerful for the game. Most people don't fully forma every weapon they get, they'll get the mastery from it and promptly sell it. 

Also, I'm still very unclear on the point you're making

[Volinus7]

42 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

But they do need it, because mastery is valuable.

Having a weapon fully forma'd doesn't hold any value, because it's too powerful for the game. Most people don't fully forma every weapon they get, they'll get the mastery from it and promptly sell it. 

Also, I'm still very unclear on the point you're making

Powerful gears mean faster grinding and spending less time doing "what you don't want to do but Warframe coerced you to do". Statistically long term WF players don't sell weapons to make rooms for slots they usually leave them "just in case" they might become requirements for future blueprints and buy new slots instead. Also in a broad context forma is included in grinding.

 

The point is a fun game can be played even without any reward systems and grinding.

Perhaps Warframe really can coerce some players to go through "not worth it" grinding in order to get the next things they want.

 

Tbh, not many people analyze the edge of Warframe before start playing otherwise they would notice that maxed out meta cheese looping until lvl 9999 is pretty boring and pointless. Actually constructing endgame for Warframe is not hard but it's better to keep it far out of reach so that compulsive players would grind and forma unnecessarily "just in case" due to uncertainty. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Volinus7

[Kimimoto]

29 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Statistically

Hit me with that data bby

 

29 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

The point is a fun game can be played even without any reward systems and grinding.

Am I on the right forums? We play Warframe right? If you remove the reward systems and grinding, all that's left is fashion. Top kek, wut?

Either way, I know your extreme point of view and you're not actually here to have a discussion. I don't know why you even bother responding to threads like this with these non-arguments.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Kimimoto

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

Vets don't #*!%ing matter anymore. 

This is about what I expect from the forums/reddit. Not everyone, but a whole bunch o' people are like this. Vets are the lifeblood of this game, and they're bleeding out the back end at the moment.

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

Hit me with that data bby

 

Am I on the right forums? We play Warframe right? If you remove the reward systems and grinding, all that's left is fashion. Top kek, wut?

Either way, I know your extreme point of view and you're not actually here to have a discussion. I don't know why you even bother responding to threads like this with these non-arguments.

Because you talked like fun and rewards are mutually exclusive in Warframe. Perhaps there're some people who play Warframe for two things only reward and fashion, loop to the rep above again that Warframe is not fun enough or fun is irrelevant in Warframe. 

Also it looks like you regret wasting time forma stuffs and end up with steamrolled WF contents. 

 

How about "the point of Warframe is to convince players to waste time and money on meaningless progressions and rewards", does that explain the current Warframe? 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Volinus7

[TaylorsContraction]

At it's core Warframe is a game. A past-time, something we do in our spare time for fun. What is fun is different for everyone. The early game of Warframe is fun because it is actually challenging and there is a progression system. Eventually through said progression we hit easy mode and I think this is what many players myself included often complain about. There is a group of players that like challenge (A) and want more of it, and there is a group of players that hate challenge and want none of it (B).

Thus if any challenge is ever added, it can't have exclusive rewards because B throws a forum poopstorm, while a lack of challenge results in a constant influx of threads such as this one and a never-ending request for "end game", whatever that may be.

For now we wait for the new wayr perhaps it will bring challenge.

Someone mentioned that a game can have no rewards and still be fun, yes games with good stories or pvp. Warframe pvp is actually fun aside from low player count and high ping. But these things are not enough to sustain a game like warframe, hence as a clan leader I'm woefully aware of how often people pick this game up and quit. I see it everyday, invite an Mr 1 to clan. By Mr 5-8 they've quit and haven't logged in again for 90 days. Player retention is also an issue...

[Test-995]

We want year long progression toward stupidly strong-est bosses, right?

[Teridax68]

On one hand, I do have to say that DE's done a significantly better job of updating content in recent times, and in fact right now it feels like the most active they've been in quite some time (and the content they're releasing seems to be high-quality too). Empyrean also looks like it will bring sustainable fun by connecting a whole bunch of systems in Warframe together, and adding some new pervasive ones on top. In this respect, we're closer to a "sustainable, fun, rewarding gameplay loop" in Warframe than ever before.

On the flipside, I do agree that the years before haven't been amazing for that, and mostly because DE put disproportionate amounts of resources into bits of content that only offered limited amounts of additional gameplay (and it would offer even less if it weren't for forced grinding mechanisms such as daily reputation caps, in the case of Cetus or Fortuna). The fact that virtually all content released in the past few years has been isolated from the rest of the main game hasn't helped either, and has compounded the feeling of content drought with the impression that the "real" warframe has been stagnating, outside of select reworks or rebalances. In the future, DE needs to learn from these releases, avoid releasing isolated content again (especially if it comes with a content drought), and reimplement existing content to be better-integrated with the rest of Warframe. 

Beyond that, I think the systems implemented in Empyrean could also serve as the basic building blocks for more other more sustainable systems: Kuva Liches seem like a much better way to make our actions have consequences, and if our missions could reverberate across players and open up more opportunities for gameplay, that could already give us fractally more reasons to play than currently, where our challenges are only limited and based on a drip-feed of automatic content. Ideally, it shouldn't even be about extrinsic rewards in the end, so much as setting stakes in the System for us to care about, so that we wouldn't constantly need some new carrot to keep ourselves invested in the world of Warframe.

[Boomfly]

Point to 1 (1) [one] game that has an end loop that fits your demands.

Just like Warframe, most online games 'end' when you get stuff for a perfect character build that wrecks everything, every PvE game is going to have an end point of some sort. Warframe is played by a ton of people all the time in spite of your claims, and less complex games that follow the same formula, like Killing Floor 2, handle themselves just as well.

[NightmareT12]

6 hours ago, (XB1)TogetherTurtle said:

Even when I am done with those things, I certainly won't come to the forums to complain about content. There will never be a gameplay loop satisfying enough to keep everyone playing forever.  

This is a good point, and it's very much true, but it's also true there's a few elements that have disappeared from the game to be substituted with nothing as of yet. I'm talking about stuff like Dark Sectors and Raids.

I'm sure they'll be adding them back (and I hope the Railjack system helps on this), but I feel they're starting points to reach a portion of the playerbase.