It doesn't matter how many open worlds, railjacks, or new wars DE makes. There's no sustainable, fun, rewarding gameplay loop in the game to make the hundreds of hours of progression worth it.

[Sloan441]

13 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Stuff

Odd. I'm up to over 6k hours in game and I'm still having fun. 

This new stuff, well, we'll see what it's like when it comes out. Until then, it's business as usual and business is still fun. 

[Aldain]

10 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

One of the requirements for any sustainable content is rewards

Rewards only last so long, once people have what they want the content is dead, the only reason fissures aren't is because they play into the market and there are new primes, but fissures themselves are just a reward grind through RNG, its sustainable and rewarding, but it sure ain't fun after a certain point.

That's where every one of these threads goes wrong, content, in any game, shouldn't be based on the outcome/rewards alone, the content needs to be enjoyable before either of those.

Look at PvP/Lunaro, it just isn't fun to most people, even with the rewards locked behind it, if there's no fun to be had nobody will bother playing it. Compare to something like Eidolons, which people have grinded so hard that they are doing multiple tricaps in one night, its not exactly fun since the gameplay boils down to "Lower shields, shoot sniper at weakpoint" but is only still run because of the Arcanes behind it.

As long as the carrot and stick approach is taken in Warframe there will only be two types of content; Dead content used only for a handful of reasons (at best) and boring content used exclusively for the rewards behind it. This isn't "sustainable" by any means, its just the same thing done with a different hat on and the promise of "Hey here's a 2% increase in your optimization capability" which only works until the majority of the playerbase who actually chase that 2% increase get it.

This is why I'm at least hopeful for Railjack, because it is something new, weird and different, even if the reward cycle boils down to almost nothing if it is FUN to play I'd rather hover around space in a ship for hours than sit down in relic farming/cracking for the same hours.

[Kimimoto]

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

avoid releasing isolated content again

I agree, but you could have isolated content and not have a drought. If that isolated content is sustainable and will always have a reason to come back, then it's succeeded no matter how isolated it is. Simply adding 'Relic Packs' to Ostron/Solaris rep would make both open worlds more sustainable. 

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Rewards only last so long, once people have what they want the content is dead, the only reason fissures aren't is because they play into the market and there are new primes, but fissures themselves are just a reward grind through RNG, its sustainable and rewarding, but it sure ain't fun after a certain point.

Some rewards last FOREVER, so as long as those rewards are being given out this argument doesn't really work. i.e. Endo, Credits, Kuva, AnythingYouCanTradeForPlat

[(XBOX)TogetherTurtle]

12 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Some actual criticism would be welcome though, instead of just naysaying.

Ok

12 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Even if someone is MR16 and they've done everything they want to in the game, I believe they should have something to throw their builds at.

This is contradictory. If they've done everything they want to do it the game, they can't have something to throw their builds at because they've already done those things.

12 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Hell, I have friends even lower than that who have formad and built out a loadout, but once they found out there's nothing to actually do with it they stopped playing the game. That's something that can be prevented, and is a big flaw for the game,

There will never be a gameplay loop that will last forever. That's such a defeatist statement though, that's like saying Railjack won't last forever either, or the open worlds. I think that's pretty close minded and counter productive when considering the games best interest.

There's a difference between being defeatist and aknowledging reality.

On a seemingly unrelated tangent, I watched the first episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine yesterday. The episode focuses on an encounter with aliens that live outside of what we would call "linear time". Things just don't change for them. In explaining how we experience time, one thing confused these aliens, how we sometimes choose to live in the past. In a sense, it's wrong to say we always experience time in a linear fashion, because we often choose to live in our memories.

The truth is that things change. Sometimes you beat a video game. If it isn't fun or there's nothing to do, you just have to move on. Maybe there will be a day when game design is so advanced that endless games are possible, but we don't live in that time. We have to let go and live linearly, for our own sake.

[Kimimoto]

6 hours ago, Boomfly said:

Point to 1 (1) [one] game that has an end loop that fits your demands.

Warframe does, fissures do. I literally used it as an example in the OP...

Having more variety is a good thing, and these game modes are already 90% done. Why not just ask them to be tweaked a little bit instead of naysaying?

Also just because there's an endpoint doesn't mean they shouldn't try to make sustainable content. You could say the literal same thing about any of these year long updates, and this place would throw an absolute fit.

[DrDispraise]

You are correct. I suggested something for end game where you can play forever and never see same thing twice:

 

[(XBOX)TogetherTurtle]

6 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

This is a good point, and it's very much true, but it's also true there's a few elements that have disappeared from the game to be substituted with nothing as of yet. I'm talking about stuff like Dark Sectors and Raids.

I'm sure they'll be adding them back (and I hope the Railjack system helps on this), but I feel they're starting points to reach a portion of the playerbase.

I just hope DE works on making matchmaking less finicky. It might be my wireless connection that refuses to connect me with the seven other squads doing an activity but it probably isn't. Raids were especially bad about this because of the player count per lobby.

As for Dark Sectors, I think DE is afraid only big clans will ever control them and wish to balance that out before they do anything with them again. Maybe they should just make Dark Sectors exclusive to alliances so smaller clans don't get left out. Of course, if smaller clans can't compete, maybe they don't deserve the rewards.

[NightmareT12]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)TogetherTurtle said:

It might be my wireless connection that refuses to connect me with the seven other squads doing an activity but it probably isn't. Raids were especially bad about this because of the player count per lobby. 

Well, wireless is usually a bad thing -- as an ex wifi player, I can't thank enough my Ethernet.

As for Dark Sectors, I think the whole idea was always for them to be Alliances exclusive (but honestly, it's been 4 years now since they were taken away and I hardly remember). Yes, that would defenitiely need a look because I remember quite a lot of unfairness, drama and exploiting involved.

Edited July 15, 2019 by NightmareT12

[Aldain]

53 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Endo, Credits, Kuva, AnythingYouCanTradeForPlat

In order:

Once you have all the essential max rank mods this becomes borderline useless outside of rivens (more on that in a bit)

Index and Profit-taker make credits a joke reward.

If you don't care about Rivens Kuva is useless outside of building Harrow and a few weapons that need it, and if you don't need/want Rivens Endo becomes even less useful after a cetain point.

As for plat, I mentioned that Relics are renewable rewards already and those do last forever, or at least they last until market saturation happens, but that's a different thread.

Currency isn't a reward, its a gain that supplements a reward, all the Endo in the world is useless without mods worth putting it into, all the credits in the world are useless unless you are turning them and Ducats into Baro plat on resale. The grind is sustainable, yes, but you haven't addressed the primary issue of my post.

What good are rewards or incentives to do content if there is no fun to be had, reward design should come AFTER content design is made fun, not as the main draw.

[MJ12]

12 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

I've finished focus, have all the mods I need, and I'm already in a clan that I want to be in. I've already done these things.

Even if someone is MR16 and they've done everything they want to in the game, I believe they should have something to throw their builds at. Hell, I have friends even lower than that who have formad and built out a loadout, but once they found out there's nothing to actually do with it they stopped playing the game. That's something that can be prevented, and is a big flaw for the game,

There will never be a gameplay loop that will last forever. That's such a defeatist statement though, that's like saying Railjack won't last forever either, or the open worlds. I think that's pretty close minded and counter productive when considering the games best interest.

Some actual criticism would be welcome though, instead of just naysaying.

Okay, let me give you guys an incredibly controversial take:

Endgame in MMOs is generally implemented in an extremely meh way. You have a leveling game, where you go through the map, beating up mobs and doing singleplayer quests or maybe small-scale MP content, gaining new skills and experimenting with them, experiencing more and more of the narrative, and then suddenly, the game tells you that actually, all that time you spent is just an extended tutorial to the Real Game, whatever the real game is. Maybe it's PvP. Maybe it's raids. The obsession with 'endgame' in MMOs is actually not great, and the fact that Warframe gives you the tools to access 'endgame' content extremely quickly is actually a good thing, even if it disadvantages 2000+ hour super-vet players by giving them few bragging rights to talk about for three reasons. First, as much as veterans complain about not having endgame, there's a decent chance that many of them are veterans now solely because Warframe doesn't actually tell them that the gameplay loop they've come to enjoy is meaningless, and that there's an entirely different 'endgame' that they should be playing if they want to get anywhere. Second, a focus on sustainable midgame content means that the game is much better at managing churn (that is to say, players drifting away then coming back). Finally, the idea of endgame content' being the real reason to play the game isn't a great attitude.

First, Warframe doesn't have an "endgame" because DE's philosophy is that most content should be accessible relatively early in. Now, this hasn't always been implemented perfectly (Plains of Eidolon was a hot mess in terms of expected difficulty for newbies and to some extent still is, Fortuna has better design but is still pretty rough for a newbie), but the core philosophy is that you should be capable of beelining to the content you want, and doing that content, relatively easily, rather than having a Mandatory Grind Time to actually get 'raid ready' or whatever. Yes, that content can sometimes be grindy, but you can get access to the content early, and get access to the gear needed to beat the content early, and you can continue to play that content. There is no point in Warframe where if you want to progress, you need to abandon the core game and basically play an entirely different game. Sure, that means there's no endgame, but it also means that there's no point where the game changes to something else entirely and forces you to consider whether you enjoy this completely different gameplay that you're expected to spend the majority of your time doing. Warframe is refreshingly transparent here-the reward for playing Warframe is simply more Warframe. If that's the kind of game you like? Great. If it's not? At least you're realizing it quickly rather than having to spend 100+ hours getting endgame-ready and realizing that you don't like the 'real Warframe.'

Second, the lack of "endgame" and the lack of the constant endgame treadmill (where old endgame starts becoming depreciated so the new endgame becomes important to chase) makes Warframe an extremely easy game to come back to. If you stopped playing back in mid-2013, back when the Hek was top-tier, and had a maxed out set of basic mods back then, you'd be able to come back and... jump right back into doing most content. You wouldn't be fully optimized, and certainly you'd struggle with the highest end of content, but despite having six years of content pass you by you'd still be able to jump, more or less, right back in and start off more or less where you left off. This makes it easier to drift away from Warframe and come back months or even years later, which is probably part of why it's managed to last for so much time. I've drifted away from Warframe for months a few times, but it's always been pretty easy to just jump right back into the content because the vertical progression curve is both fairly asymptotic (you get a lot of your vertical power quickly, but climbing the remainder is hard) and the game's been willing to make sure that it's pretty easy to come back to. And if you left the game in, say, 2017, and came back right now, it'd be different and more refined, but you'd have an even easier time jumping right back in and continuing on. An endgame-focused game couldn't manage this same level of 'jump right back in' because your endgame gear would probably be multiple endgame iterations out of date.

And finally, I don't think this is actually a worse attitude than a focus on endgame (to the point where in some games, people say that if you haven't experienced the endgame, you haven't really played the game). Instead of focusing resources on an endgame that most players will never experience (in Destiny, 4 out of 5 players will never play a single raid), Warframe focuses resources into things which more players will have a chance to enjoy. This means that veteran-only content is often somewhat limited, but it's not as if veterans of Warframe don't get content, it's just that the content is open for everyone to enjoy.

[Xzorn]

Warframe is a game of many roads all of which lead to a dead end.

I still think the best content the game ever had was the community created stuff like endurance runs. Scaling with a proper Damage system has always been the salvation of this game's replay value and the longevity of future content additions. Years later DE still haven't bothered and the game play is just getting worse.

Since I haven't been doing Endurance runs I've gone from testing builds with most frames down to just using Ignis and 4-5 frames for everything. There's nothing in "typical" content that requires me to do anything else or bother trying new things. It's a shame.

[Volinus7]

Meanwhile DE still have no clue about what rewards OP wants. 

Even cookieclicker, the amount of max cookie is 1.8e308 and after that js will show inf symbol instead. 

[DrakeWurrum]

Something we need to accept: this is a casual game. There is no hardcore side to it.

Look elsewhere for the hardcore fix. We can't force DE to change that for us, no matter how loud we get. They only do what they want to do.

As someone who is MR26 and has almost every item in the game, yeah... I have a hard time finding something to do in the game.

So I decide to play a different game.

Edited July 15, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[kuciol]

Ok real talk now. You soaked in few hundreds of hour into a game and you complain that you got bored. Are you for real? Do anything in life enough times and it will get boring. Just take a break, or just leave. This is only a game.  

[Femuru]

16 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Something we need to accept: this is a casual game. There is no hardcore side to it.

Look elsewhere for the hardcore fix. We can't force DE to change that for us, no matter how loud we get. They only do what they want to do.

As someone who is MR26 and has almost every item in the game, yeah... I have a hard time finding something to do in the game.

So I decide to play a different game.

wrong with this many mechanics they implemented it isnt a casual game, not to mention it is not easy for anyone to just casually get into the game at the start (yes the new player experience is underway on a fix but it isnt even out yet so that part still stands) nor are a lot of the frames built for lazy casual style. the game is portray and made with depth which raised a certain standard of expectation, now to or not to meet those expectations is ultimately up to them but by not doing so they lose a chunk of their player base. whether they want to grow as a business and development team they need to accept that this game they made is to be complex, am i saying this game is not for casuals? no if you enjoy it then enjoy it but u dont simply right off your players like youre EA, bethesda, or activision blizzard. am i saying DE are like them? absolutely not even close but things can change in a heartbeat for anyone and dont try to put words in my mouth. if any business wanna grow they need to make smart moves that can retain ppl fairly and simply saying to the players who stuck with the game more than anyone else to learn the hard details to outright leave is not a pretty outcome i mean look at diablo immortal. i cant count how many mmo shut down simply because there are white knights saying the game is perfect that need no fixes or changes with developers sitting around with no words or actions. at this current point in time do i also think we should be rioting the strongest we can for an endgame? at this current point is no simply because obviously they want to fix the new player experience which is a fair move BUT if there is one thing i hate is ppl trying to completely silence others like theyre some communist government. let ppl give their feedback, ive accepted new player experience is a current focus but i still want an endgame, other ppl want endgame, the game needs an endgame to prosper longer and ill probly toss drawing board ideas till they do. is every idea going to be a good idea? absolutely not but thats the wonder of having so many ppl from the player base to the development team is that we try to fix and fill the gaps of those who messed up by giving information but by cutting off that proper communication without a 2nd thought again only kills progress.

[kuciol]

Dont start with this over dramatization please. Everything you said is sugarcoated lie that you might even believe in. The only reason such topics exist is the fact that players cant accept that they got bored of game they like. There is really nothing more to it. No matter what or when they implement you will still eventually get bored. Thats just how it works. They wont lose "big chunk of playerbase" since the content X doesnt exist and you are still here that is plenty of proof. You will leave, 5 others will take your place. This game despite the amount of content is casual, always was and always will be. You think why missions last 1-20 minutes? You think why you can make a clan of 1 person? Dont lie to yourself. This is not a real feedback, its another topic of "fix this and this or else, because this and this will not work". Such topic exist in every single game out there, go check it up, you will notice the pattern. Is it cynical on my part? Yea sure but that doesnt make it not correct and you know it.

[DrakeWurrum]

28 minutes ago, SutomuDrgn said:

wrong with this many mechanics they implemented it isnt a casual game, not to mention it is not easy for anyone to just casually get into the game at the start

And yet every single form of content that they've been adding to the game, every major gameplay update, for YEARS, has been to make this game more accessible, easy to learn, and more casual-grind. Nothing for the "hardcore" player mindset. The number one complaint from veteran players like me, for years, is that they haven't been releasing content for us veterans. Ergo, they're releasing content for non-veterans.

Why do you think the DE team has always gone out of their way to encourage players to only play in a mission for 20-25 missions, without every supporting the players who stay in a single endless mission for 3 hours?

Edited July 15, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

23 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

All these year longs updates provide a week or two in play time. Sometimes not even as much, *cough* The Sacrifice. Meanwhile there still isn't a replacement for the Old Void, there's no satisfying rewarding gameplay loop in the game, which would do A TON to relieve pressure off DE while these year long updates are being made.

Content drought didn't used to be a thing. Nobody truly cared, because you could hop into the Old Void and test your mettle, while potentially getting something good out of it for your effort. Since that was a thing to do, it also gave purpose to ALL THE PROGRESSION IN THE GAME, which is currently useless.

Why forma a weapon? Why get a riven for it? Why even have a build when it's not going to matter, because realistically your not going to fight enemies over level 100.

YOU COULD if these fragmented game modes that have been getting released all shared their best qualities with each other.

--- Arbitrations has good rewards, and reward rotations. But the pacing of rewards is it's problem, it should be similar to ESO.

--- ESO has good rewards and the pace of rewards is good. But it's reward rotations should have Arbitrations, so there's a reason to try past wave 8, making progression and good builds fun.

--- Kuva Survival has good rewards, and the pacing is good. But it doesn't give any incentive to not leave, give it the same booster system that Fissures have. 25% booster every 5 minutes up to a 75% cap. Credit > Affinity > Resource > Drop Rate > Bonus Kuva Reward > Repeat.

--- Disruption has the pacing, it has the good reward rotations. DE already know the problem with this one, it's rewards are not rewarding. Not in the slightest... Especially for long term players, the only thing that's actually a reward is a relic. If you already have thousands of relics, then you get absolutely nothing.

These game modes just need to be brought in along side Fissures. Fissures since they were added three years ago haven't needed any real adjustments. They'll always provide something to do, that is sustainable content and it's where these other game modes need to be brought. They need to become sustainable for long terms players, to the point where DE can just set them and forget them. If they do content droughts will be a thing of the past, players will have repeatable, fun, rewarding game play loops.

Here's the final thing I'll say, while sometimes the Warframe community may get upset with certain grinds, grind is what we love at the end of the day. We want to play the game and get that next thing. What do you do when there's nothing left to get? I'd ask you to put on the shoes of the MR27s, the OG closed beta, and excal prime boys. They want to play the game as much as anyone else, they love it or else they wouldn't have kept up with it for 6+ years. Let's get sustainable content in the game for them, but also for you. Where ever you are in the game, new player, mid range MR, nearing the end 20+. You're eventually going to be in those shoes whether you like it or not.

I love this game, love the grind, love jyst playing. Been playing for over 4 years with very few missed logins and i love the game still

[Femuru]

3 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

And yet every single form of content that they've been adding to the game, every major gameplay update, for YEARS, has been to make this game more accessible, easy to learn, and more casual-grind. Nothing for the "hardcore" player mindset. The number one complaint from veteran players like me, for years, is that they haven't been releasing content for us veterans. Ergo, they're releasing content for non-veterans.

Why do you think the DE team has always gone out of their way to encourage players to only play in a mission for 20-25 missions, without every supporting the players who stay in a single endless mission for 3 hours?

Wrong again arbitration, eso, disruption were aimed at veterans but we're failed attempts each in their own way  (none of which helped new players but even then doesn't get rid of the games true nature of complexity and depth that eventually becomes meaningless). where each one could had been improved but as I said earlier in the discussion the reason they failed is their formula (which I also mention endurance isn't the answer but atleast why players do them). You don't see vets complaining if they fix the new player experience (which now they are after a few years) cuz it isn't really for them and they realize it (if anything we complain there isnt anything for us which I'll admit can vary from pointless ramble but still some actual feedback). These players frustration wasn't just a volcano that exploded in a single day, it was slowly built up. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by SutomuDrgn

[(XBOX)TogetherTurtle]

10 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

Well, wireless is usually a bad thing -- as an ex wifi player, I can't thank enough my Ethernet.

It's not ideal, but I have some of the best WiFi on the market if I recall and I don't have any problems with any other games. It's been known for a long time that Warframe has player connectivity issues stemming from how the whole matchmaking and lobby system is set up. I don't recall exactly why but I'm pretty sure DE has acknowledged this on devstreams. One of the downsides of making your game free but also good is having a ravenous fanbase that eats up whatever you put in front of them so I understand fixing bugs not being a top priority, but I think we all would benefit from DE taking a break for a few weeks at least and fixing known bugs that have been around for a long time.

[Zanchak]

I don't mind so much waiting for the big updates.. I'm actually more bothered by the continuous stream of new warframes and weapons that we really dont need so often. I'm one of those people that wishes old stuff would be fixed/updated before the new frames are thrown out every few months. Even if it was like a new/old/new/old cycle thatd be nice. 

I do miss old void too. 

[Timepool]

Warframe— to me— is an exploration game. I explore new weapons, frames, builds, and gamemodes. That is where the nigh endless loops are for me. I grind for new things and forma them because I want to explore them. I do not care about having some big mega tough endgame at all— I greatly prefer the exploration. Grind isn't what I love at the end of the day— it's trying and using fun things. I do not think the game should be full of endless content, everything must end eventually. I don't mind so called "content droughts" because hey, things end, things take breaks— and I have a ton still to explore regardless.