[Endgame] Why we had it and why we lost it

[Spectre-8]

I blame the toxic casuals that can't tell the differance between running Corrosive Projection and not running Corrosive Projection , while at the same demanding that everything in game should be obtainable without any effort and tradable for platinum because why not .

[844448]

4 hours ago, rhuug said:

you meantioned litterally the only raid that has some of the mechanics you find in the rest of the game as it's puzzle elements, you however didn't mention the alternative hidden paths, all of the other trials(like the dog forest) and the boss fight wich has it's own meachanics exclusive to it so....yeeeeaahhh

you like the orbs, fine i'll admit they are not that different from an eidolon, it's just i would like to see a more complex eidolon not a somewhat streamlide version of thpse fights wich is what the orb fights are in my opinion

ESO is a timer, nothing more,outstandig isn't it?

arbitration drones are cooler looking shield drones with huge rays of light connecting them to mobs, ooh boi i bet i takes real brainpower to figure that out

so ok , i can concede a different interpratation of things: what little endgame we have is halfbaked and too streamlined for the purpose of catering to all rather then who it should cater to

You just ignore what I mentioned before with many excuses, profit taker orb has its own exclusive mechanics of sentient shielding and if you look at raids in destiny as a whole, almost everything is something you always do. Do you prefer those nonsensical puzzle put everywhere in order to progress as endgame? Sorry to say but if that's the requirement for endgame, it's not really a good endgame when you don't have much action in it especially with pace of combat in warframe so tell me, why as a fast killing machine, we should have endgame that tells you to take things slowly?

[rhuug]

44 minutes ago, 844448 said:

You just ignore what I mentioned before with many excuses, profit taker orb has its own exclusive mechanics of sentient shielding and if you look at raids in destiny as a whole, almost everything is something you always do. Do you prefer those nonsensical puzzle put everywhere in order to progress as endgame? Sorry to say but if that's the requirement for endgame, it's not really a good endgame when you don't have much action in it especially with pace of combat in warframe so tell me, why as a fast killing machine, we should have endgame that tells you to take things slowly?

what did i ignored? i conceeded to you about the orb, i never said puzzlY mechanics (the orb sentient shielding is a puzzly mechanic, the lures of the hunt are too but also the ropalolyst mechanichs are, would you consider that to be endgame too?) must be all there is about endgame, it's just a possible solution(that still has to be balanced with other gameplay aspects ,its not like i want a round of super mario maker for warframe final loop wich btw ironically enough we kinda have), if railjack doesn't end up a butchered rando fest then that's feasible endgame to me too, so would be solar rails, hell i'd take a gambit prime for endgame too. The point is endgame should push out of regular gameplay(meaning all i said already about endgame, in other treads also) and also be meaningfull(experience wise but of course also reward wise for those who need incentives) in order to be aspired to and appreciated.

that said you are still lying about Destiny raids,they are a balance of mob shooting and either miniboss(with puzzle mechanics like you can find in orbs or eidos),boss prelude encounters (also with puzzly mechanics), actual puzzle type rooms or platforming( and sometime a mix of these last two also), you don't do much of any of these in the regular game except for minibosses and what little to nothing platforming there is in the story and a couple of elite missions and even then the platforming in the raids is more complex and thought out (except for the dreaming city secret area wich has probably the hardest platforming in the game and is almost a mini raid itself).I don't mean your opinion about it its wrong i mean it doesn't actually represent that content in that game as whole.

lastly i believe i never gave you excuses, nor do i feel the need to,i just expressed opinions you can disagree with but it doesn't mean my opinion is invalid or that yours is superior and the same goes for me mind you, we can have a debate or you can just focus on saying i am wrong, wich makes for a boring conversation anyway.

Edited July 24, 2019 by rhuug

[Satan]

Unfortunately it's more of the newer players who don't like the challenge simply because they aren't powerful enough to get there yet. I have no hate against them do not get me wrong but it is upsetting to see more endgame stuff get nerfed so then newer players can access the content as well. The new semi open world is meant to be "Veteran locked" from what I heard from a clan mate but I don't think this will happen whether it's true or not.

I just think DE needs to be harsher when making content for vets so then they can at least enjoy the game instead of blasting through content within a couple days

 

[Charlsendrex]

I've got one for you:

Nightmare Arbitrations. You still have the bonuses, but all frames and weapons NOT listed are PENALIZED.

I know from speaking to people that a lot of the time they just ignore the boosted frame or weapon (unless it's one of a few meta frames or weapons that they are willing to switch to for that run).

So, keep normal arbitrations but also add a new step over it as detailed above. That way, people will dust off barely-used frames or weapons and be encouraged to use them, with the bonus offsetting whatever drawbacks that equipment has so it's not so much a "screw you, you're using Booben and Lato and it's gonna suck and that's too bad", it's "okay, with this temporary buff, this is actually kind of interesting."

It also would be cool to have squads (in PUGs at least) where you have diversity in the equipment everyone's rocking.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Angrytiger

[Shykenn]

On 2019-07-23 at 10:30 PM, stormy505 said:

63,820 is the active players from the steam statistics. i imagine, including all the consoles and the people who launch the game through the client, the game doesn't go past 250k active players.


if we use steam achievements, The Great Eidolon Hunt has a completion rate of 5.2% of the playerbase. so a lot of the players who play this game are no longer active, and if you look at It Keeps Getting Better, (play for ten hours) less then 1/4 of the playerbase has gotten that far...

The 63k steam stats is not for active players, it is for concomitent players so how many players are logged in at a given time, the number of active players is much higher so it can sustain the average. 

[OH_GOD_NOTTHISGUY]

You wanna know about real endgame 

 

 

 

Go look up the old void..

That S#&$ was the real endgame 

[PatternistSlave]

16 hours ago, rhuug said:

in the specific case of warframe vets are actually the higher spending portion of players

No.  That's not how the business model of Warframe is designed and not at all realistic.  There isn't even enough stuff TO buy for 1% to spend more than 99%

16 hours ago, rhuug said:

since there's nothing else but getting shinier, at least from what i've seen

Then you've no idea what you're even talking about.  There's years of content that can't be bought and no one is just sitting around waiting to spend more money on cosmetics.

16 hours ago, rhuug said:

if railjack was gated behind hours and hours of ranking your clan and building the ships would you refuse to play just because it could be considered endgame ,if it was really challenging would you cry about it asking for it to be easier?

I have nigh everything in the game so have no issue doing anything, but that's not reality for the vast majority of players.  What you're really asking is if I would rather have people to play with or have content be more challenging.  I'd rather have people to play with.  If I wanted real challenge I'd play a PvP game.

16 hours ago, rhuug said:

i don't think the people who want endgame are divisive on what endgame is

The post right above this one thinks the only "endgame" is the old Void.  Have you played the old Void?  It was easy and boring.  Oh and still playable btw if you want to see.  Go try it.  Stay for a few hours in whatever mission.  Let me know how exciting that is and how not divisive it would be that were "endgame".  See.  I think it was boring and punished those who didn't have hours upon hours to waste and people said so at the time so it was revamped to Fissures.  But maybe that's just me.

[rhuug]

50 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

No.  That's not how the business model of Warframe is designed and not at all realistic.  There isn't even enough stuff TO buy for 1% to spend more than 99%

Spoiler

okay keep lying to yourself, i don't see low mr players running around in full customized armour sets nor tennogen...but i see a bunch of high ranks that do that.

Then you've no idea what you're even talking about.  There's years of content that can't be bought and no one is just sitting around waiting to spend more money on cosmetics.

Spoiler

yuo took that out of context, a cheap move or proof it is you who know not what you are talking about

also who's more likely to buy gins and frames, the people who are fresh in the game or those who already know the amount of grind they'll have to go through to get the new stuff?(i myself started buying stuff after a year and a half c.ca)

 most vets just buy whatever so they can experience the content at they'r own pace withouth having to farm hours of bounty or worst game mods

I have nigh everything in the game so have no issue doing anything, but that's not reality for the vast majority of players.  What you're really asking is if I would rather have people to play with or have content be more challenging.  I'd rather have people to play with.  If I wanted real challenge I'd play a PvP game.

Spoiler

no that's not what i asked, either reply to the question or don't reply at all, or keep making up stuff and twisting what others have said, it seems most of you naysayers just have to resort to that to justify your theyr

The post right above this one thinks the only "endgame" is the old Void.  Have you played the old Void?  It was easy and boring.  Oh and still playable btw if you want to see.  Go try it.  Stay for a few hours in whatever mission.  Let me know how exciting that is and how not divisive it would be that were "endgame".  See.  I think it was boring and punished those who didn't have hours upon hours to waste and people said so at the time so it was revamped to Fissures.  But maybe that's just me.

Spoiler

i played and i didn't like it,but again the vast majority of people arguing for endgame want teamwork and complex engaging mechanichs wich again could be brought by railjack if they don't butcher it on acount of whiners (or they could just make the eidolon and orbs better), they are not asking for 1h survival as we can do that already (play a reg operation for an hour isn't endgame by any means unless you are one of those who doesn't want endgame in wich case you brin that up with arbitration and ESO) then again i didn't say that content would be divisive i said there is not much division within those who ask for endgame (teamwork,fun loop,rewards, clan pvp,engaging gameplay twists on the core wf) meaning people are asking a definite thing so saying some people wuold be irritated because it's blue instead of purple its just petty (minutias make for petty arguments,generally). fissures are fine but the problem is they don't give full rewards (is like you grind for booster packs wich have pieces of different cards inside rather then a full one) and don't require any teamwork so it feels like the rest of the game

 

so interlocked my reply with your post, in spoiler that have bold dark blue writing  just to avoid confusion.

now about what i said on fissures: i'd be find with them if they were its own tileset with minibosses like thumper that have to killed in order to obtain reactants and eventually open the relic, i'd also make the miniboss partially or fully immune to cc for the purpose of making it near impossible to solo and encourage teamwork.Lastly the relic openin shouldn't just be a menu but rather rapresented physically because descrbing the opening of a relic as it is now is underwhelming(and thats an understatemen)

and so that is just a quick idea for content feasible for endgame but it can be broken down in basic things like nearly all suggestion ever given on endgame by anyone.(mechanics, teamwork, rewards, satisfying/fun loop; it doesn't take much imagination to make something a bit special if you already have a good core like WF)

Edited July 25, 2019 by rhuug

[MPonder]

On 2019-07-23 at 3:31 PM, Wawus said:

I'm also more into locking items behind progression and skill rather than time, it just gives sense of growth and direction.

Agree. Items been only locked behind some RNG of relics or either bought from Market/Dojo makes no sense, with a few exception like Seer. Something like a weapon beyond Rubico in damage and its augments, and maybe some ingredients to max it out behind a good challenge boss, no tradable would be great,

On 2019-07-23 at 3:31 PM, Wawus said:

So what happened? People started to complain, that balance of effort vs reward isn't all that great. Or that these items are beyond player's gear or understanding of the game. Or that I want rewards NOW.

Rewards are pretty bad in Warframe. There is actually no reason in terms of time spent -> profit to do things like the Spider Bosses of Fortuna, some Arbitrations missions like defense, survival, ESO, etc. Best thing is either to grind relics and open them, which some times are pretty easy to get on bounties, like Rhino relics now or Eidolon to sell their arcanes for PL. Everything else is like a waste of time in terms of profit. Like trying to farm Khora on ESO, I can pretty much get enough PL to buy it from the market with like 3-5 nights of eidolon or with a few relic opens instead of doing ESO over and over again and praying for Khora BP on last run.

Somethings you just grind for the reward and no reason to touch it back, like Hildryn from Spider boss or Wisp from Ropalolyst.

On 2019-07-23 at 3:31 PM, Wawus said:

. The only way to make any type of content "Endgame" is if you really give us ridiculous challenge, something that will test our years of collecting and upgrading mods, our passion to maximize or specialise. Two different types of enemies requiring equipping specific mods? Elemental damage buff rotation, so you have to bring two different weapons with different elements if you want to stay alive? Special requirements limiting gear, weapon types, maybe random nullification of one of the abilities? Make it a little harder for us. And yes, divide. Let us feel that we have earned getting past wave 5.

I think challenge is in doing something "challenge", The spider bosses weren`t difficult, everything there just hit too hard. I want something that needs team coordination, mechanics that need to be done and learn and are either fun and a little difficult to do, a little of Stats check, so it is not something that everybody can do. And not sponge HP monsters that just hit hard.

Eidolon hunt is the only thing that Warframe has that is closer to an Endgame Content.

Edited July 25, 2019 by MPonder

[stormy505]

5 hours ago, Shykenn said:

The 63k steam stats is not for active players, it is for concomitent players so how many players are logged in at a given time, the number of active players is much higher so it can sustain the average. 

I used the peak players for that day. Which also includes the people who litterly just do their daily log in and then get off. And calling them active players is debatable. Realistically, the actual amount of active players is lower.

[PatternistSlave]

5 hours ago, rhuug said:

i don't see low mr players running around in full customized armour sets nor tennogen.

That's because they have other things to buy.  From me generally.  Which I use to buy armor sets.

5 hours ago, rhuug said:

who's more likely to buy gins and frames

New players.  It's easy to get plat and frames as a veteran.

5 hours ago, rhuug said:

reply to the question or don't reply at all,

I answered your question.  Your lack of reading comprehension is not my problem.

5 hours ago, rhuug said:

i played and i didn't like it

So divisive like I said.  Know what might solve that problem?  Variety.  Which is what DE have been doing.

[PatternistSlave]

2 minutes ago, rhuug said:

i never said that

That was your basic argument tho, right?  Veterans spend more money so DE should only care about them, right?

[Alpha_Tango]

I am not sure if we did lose anything at all, but DE is first and foremost just a company trying to meet quotas. Maybe turning up the difficulty/grind is not the way to go about it, so they just give us the freedom to pick our poison. 

Options. It is all about options for DE. Multiple choices where you can test your wits about than a common "endgame" that only a few will bother to play with  . So big bosses in Tridolons/Orbs, endless survival modes in ESO or Arbitrations, GTA space wars in the future and yes, forever Fashion frame for everyone else. DE may never label anything as endgame because they can simply turn on/off the difficulty slider depending on feedback. Currently, I just enjoy what I can salvage and go somewhere else before I lose my sanity waiting for a real challenge in this game. Don't get me wrong, I love WF, but it is what it is.

[sungod1]

Who cares about end game all we need is new content a few times a year. 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-07-23 at 9:30 PM, stormy505 said:

63,820 is the active players from the steam statistics. i imagine, including all the consoles and the people who launch the game through the client, the game doesn't go past 250k active players.


if we use steam achievements, The Great Eidolon Hunt has a completion rate of 5.2% of the playerbase. so a lot of the players who play this game are no longer active, and if you look at It Keeps Getting Better, (play for ten hours) less then 1/4 of the playerbase has gotten that far...

Not really how those statistics work. Those are concurrent users i.e the number of users online at any given time. We had a discussion on the forums about this just a few days ago where someone even linked a source from Leyou which stated that we have 4 (or was it 5?I  cant remember) million active players in WF.

Steam statistics for achievments are as bad as tracking can get because it requires you to keep your overlay active in-game aswell as starting the game through your Steam app. And given how the game works after initial install, there is very little reason to actually start it up through Steam.