Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[kuciol]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

No, it's precisely subjective. I gave you an example of an opinion held by people on the Diablo 3 forum. We hold different opinions about the matter. Voila, subjective.

People that dont play game have no right to have opinion. If you know how the game operates and know how the acquisition and progression in said game works then you are entitled to one. I know for example that there are some kinds of boosters in BDO but i didnt play it so i wont judge if its p2w or not, i simply dont know how pressured you are to use them. The question i asked is not about opinion or feelings. You refuse to even attempt to answer because you know the there is nothing to be gained.

Edited September 6, 2019 by kuciol

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

People that dont play game have no right to have opinion. If you know how the game operates and know how the acquisition and progression in said game works then you are entitled to one. I know for example that there are exp some kind of boosters in BDO but i didnt play it so i wont judge if its p2w or not, i simply dont know how pressured you are to use them. The question i asked is not about opinion or feelings. You refuse to even attempt to answer because you know the there is nothing to be gained.

You're absolutely right. There is nothing gained by this thread! We have completely wasted our time on what is effectively a "maybe, maybe not" on a game that is entirely in the gray area. Though I did enjoy the the monetization video some pages back.

[kuciol]

Just now, nslay said:

You're absolutely right. There is nothing gained by this thread! We have completely wasted our time on what is effectively a "maybe, maybe not" on a game that is entirely in the gray area. Though I did enjoy the the monetization video some pages back.

Well i had time to waste so i did, im just watching youtube and have 2nd tab open.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Well i had time to waste so i did, im just watching youtube and have 2nd tab open.

For the record, I never once felt Warframe to be P2W... but I did have this back-and-forth on the D3 forums when I was sharing my Warframe experiences there. Anyway, I took their position as used against me and did the same here. So that's what it's like... only you have few to no Warframe players on the D3 forums, so it's harder to argue.

[kuciol]

Just now, nslay said:

For the record, I never once felt Warframe to be P2W... but I did have this back-and-forth on the D3 forums when I was sharing my Warframe experiences there. Anyway, I took their position as used against me and did the same here. So that's what it's like... only you have few to no Warframe players on the D3 forums, so it's harder to argue.

Arguing with somebody that doesnt play game is pointless because he has no idea what he is talking about. You shouldnt even start. Im not saying you need to get to max level and grind endgmae to have opinion but you should have at the very least an idea how the game in general works. In warframe i would say you would have to finish startchart to be entiteled to have opinion. In diablo you would have to play for at least 3 seasons etc. In PoE this would be yellow elder. In general far enough to know what you are doing and can hold your own.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Then all games are RPGs.

I don't see how those things support the idea of WF being like Diablo and its successors, since none of them had anything even remotely similar, but okay.

I like how you assume I'd say something completely stupid and then conclude on the basis of that fantasy that I'm wrong. Makes you seem very, what's the word here, credible.

A, that is an incredibly arrogant thing to say, you don't get to speak for anybody other than yourself, and B, you don't seem to grasp that his thoughts on the matter don't matter.

Whatever you said. Do you even remember?

Say what? There was no way to have more randomized stats and stuff because of technological limitations? Have you played, oh I don't know, any roguelike? I mean the old ASCII ones? Made like a decade or more before Diablo?

Fun fact, Diablo was originally supposed to be a graphical roguelike with turn-based combat, until the devs realized real-time was much more fun. Blizzard wanted to do with Diablo what they'd always done and what they'd continue to do to this day, take someone else's idea, simplify it, make it look pretty, and make millions off of it. Way more complex games existed way earlier, so no, the simplistic stat system in Diablo had nothing to do with tech limitations of the time.

I think what you mean to say is all opinions should be equal. In reality they're not. It's safe to say people are going to value, say, Roger Ebert's opinion of whether a movie is good or not more than yours, simply because he knew a lot more about movies than you do. And I think that's how it should be, opinions of people who know more about the subject should carry more weight.

Yes, which is why good games don't make you do it, which is why WF should get rid of it and the booster economy built around it and become a better game as a result. That's what I said at the beginning, that's what sparked this whole discussion, remember?

No not really, but you are the one more or less saying no game is an rpg since you dismiss some of the major rpg games throughout history, namely elder scrolls. You are also arguing against a very old genre description which is arpg.

I didnt assume anything. You pretty much said it straight out when you said ES games arent rpgs, games that have more to them in the sense of character building and choices than something like WoW. Or does WoW get some special treatment even though it would technically be less of an rpg than ES and more in the line of rpgs such as Diablo, which you said werent rpgs. You should make up your mind.

And I can speak for him since what has been said is what he himself have said on several occasions throughout the years in different interviews and recaps over his professional life, both regarding his time at old Blizzard and more recent projects. And his thoughts do matter because he is the reason why rpgs went into the action direction.

Yeah, there were technical restrictions at the time. Not that they ever got into what the exact issue(s) was/were. Certain engines come with certain restrictions. UE3 for instance had issues when it came to tracking stacks beyond the 9.999.999 mark. Sure it didnt seem like a problem at the time, cos hell, who gathers a stack of 9.999.999 materials or anything like that anyways? Well people do when it comes to gold and other such ingame currencies.

And yeah, everyone probably knows that. It still doesnt change that there were tech limitations at the time. Very likely UI related.

Funny you say that when you also claim what Brevik says doesnt matter, even though he is the one that would be of the best knowledge regarding this due to his experience. Yet you can say a movie critic has a better opinion than any "normal" person because he knows alot more about movies. Movies at that, which are mostly a matter of taste, or in the case of adaptation, how true they are towards the core material. Critics claimed the new star wars movies were amazing, yet I havent seen a movie as bad as those in a long long time.

I think the game is quite good as it is when it comes to the grind. I've never felt it as something hanging over me, or something that is slow, or that I'm forced to do. When I know I need Kuva I simply plan ahead, get some boosters and then take a week or weekend to far what I need. It has worked perfectly for me so far and I've got plenty of good rivens. As for the rest of the mats, it has never been a thing I've actually farmed, except one time when a buddy needed mats from Uranus and I had to taxi him early on. So you are really managing to complain massively about one material in the whole game, an endgame material at that. Go you!

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

People will always complain about everything, especially when it comes to rivens that imo should be atleast reworked if not removed. If you really want a booster you can get it for free but it is in no way mandatory. 

But it is pay to win. You can pay to get stuff either quicker or even immediately, without having to earn it.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No not really, but you are the one more or less saying no game is an rpg since you dismiss some of the major rpg games throughout history, namely elder scrolls. You are also arguing against a very old genre description which is arpg.

My point is that "RPG" no longer means "a game in which you roleplay". Yeah, Elder Scrolls and such are RPGs, but you don't really do much roleplaying in them. RPG just means "a game in which you level up and get better gear" now; the meaning of the words behind the acronym no longer accurately describes the genre. Likewise, ARPG isn't just any RPG with action combat, it's a specific subgenre of Diablo-clones, also not accurately described by the words behind the acronym. Language is weird like that.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

his thoughts do matter because he is the reason why rpgs went into the action direction

So you do pronounce it "jif", then?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah, there were technical restrictions at the time. Not that they ever got into what the exact issue(s) was/were. Certain engines come with certain restrictions. UE3 for instance had issues when it came to tracking stacks beyond the 9.999.999 mark. Sure it didnt seem like a problem at the time, cos hell, who gathers a stack of 9.999.999 materials or anything like that anyways? Well people do when it comes to gold and other such ingame currencies.

And yeah, everyone probably knows that. It still doesnt change that there were tech limitations at the time. Very likely UI related.

Except that the Diablo engine was created specifically for the game and its features, as was the UI.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Funny you say that when you also claim what Brevik says doesnt matter, even though he is the one that would be of the best knowledge regarding this due to his experience. Yet you can say a movie critic has a better opinion than any "normal" person because he knows alot more about movies. Movies at that, which are mostly a matter of taste, or in the case of adaptation, how true they are towards the core material. Critics claimed the new star wars movies were amazing, yet I havent seen a movie as bad as those in a long long time.

The opinions of experts matter in matters of opinion, not in matters of fact. I wouldn't care one bit if Einstein himself told me grass was blue, I know it isn't so. Same thing with this.

Also, The Last Jedi was the best addition to Star Wars since 1983.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think the game is quite good as it is when it comes to the grind. I've never felt it as something hanging over me, or something that is slow, or that I'm forced to do. When I know I need Kuva I simply plan ahead, get some boosters and then take a week or weekend to far what I need. It has worked perfectly for me so far and I've got plenty of good rivens. As for the rest of the mats, it has never been a thing I've actually farmed, except one time when a buddy needed mats from Uranus and I had to taxi him early on. So you are really managing to complain massively about one material in the whole game, an endgame material at that. Go you!

I guess I'm a bit further along than you, although you do say yourself that kuva is the only material that really matters and requires farming, the game basically showers you will all the other ones. I don't think it matters how many materials require farming. You run into tedium and frustration deliberately inserted into the game to 'motivate' you to pay money every time you farm, regardless of whether you're farming for one material or a dozen different ones. Call me crazy, but I don't think tedium and frustration are things that should be deliberately put into a game.

[ZzVinniezZ]

Aura forma is meh and i barely use it because Aura is not much of a deal to be begin with. as for Eidolon lense...the different between the normal lense and Eidolon one is 2,25% and regular one is 1,25%. it not much of a different tbh. so i don't think it P2W this is PvE...what you gonna win at? 

Edited September 7, 2019 by ZzVinniezZ

[Bioness]

1 hour ago, ZzVinniezZ said:

Aura forma is meh and i barely use it because Aura is not much of a deal to be begin with. as for Eidolon lense...the different between the normal lense and Eidolon one is 2,25% and regular one is 1,25%. it not much of a different tbh. so i don't think it P2W this is PvE...what you gonna win at? 

You win having your time back and reducing the grind/difficulty of the game. You win by having bigger numbers and better/more mods and equipment than someone else.

[ZzVinniezZ]

10 minutes ago, Bioness said:

You win having your time back and reducing the grind/difficulty of the game. You win by having bigger numbers and better/more mods and equipment than someone else.

i don't see how that is a win. you only faster by few %

[DissentWomble]

16 minutes ago, Bioness said:

You win having your time back and reducing the grind/difficulty of the game. You win by having bigger numbers and better/more mods and equipment than someone else.

So by your definition DE selling harrow with plat makes the game p2w? You can farm the aura formas just like you can farm harrow and buying harrow reducing the grind/ difficulty of the game. Better equipments? Seriously Aura formas makes frames more customizable but better? Not really no unless you're nitpicking to fit an agenda. Arbitration is a little bit more advanced stuff to farm it but if you're already thinking of wasting your time with aura formas you're already well advanced in the game enough. 

Not sure if theres already anyone pointed this out in the last 13 pages but sounds just flimsy logic considering its totally in line with everything else in the market. {buying formas, frames)

[Bioness]

1 minute ago, DissentWomble said:

So by your definition DE selling harrow with plat makes the game p2w? You can farm the aura formas just like you can farm harrow and buying harrow reducing the grind/ difficulty of the game. Better equipments? Seriously Aura formas makes frames more customizable but better? Not really no unless you're nitpicking to fit an agenda. Arbitration is a little bit more advanced stuff to farm it but if you're already thinking of wasting your time with aura formas you're already well advanced in the game enough. 

Not sure if theres already anyone pointed this out in the last 13 pages but sounds just flimsy logic considering its totally in line with everything else in the market. {buying formas, frames)

Sorry, I don't care about the Aura Forma. I was speaking in general. I personally consider Warframe pay-to-win, but I also don't see their pay-to-win style as a bad thing. People treat it like some cursed word, when there are far better issues in gaming as a whole right now.

[DissentWomble]

5 minutes ago, Bioness said:

Sorry, I don't care about the Aura Forma. I was speaking in general. I personally consider Warframe pay-to-win, but I also don't see their pay-to-win style as a bad thing. People treat it like some cursed word, when there are far better issues in gaming as a whole right now.

 So you don't care even though you quoted and replied to that exact post. Slowclaps. 

[kuciol]

7 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

But it is pay to win. You can pay to get stuff either quicker or even immediately, without having to earn it.

No. You are just misusing the term. P2W is when you are forced to pay. Having something faster doesnt automatically make it p2w. It gives you no advantage to have things faster. End result is the same.

3 hours ago, Bioness said:

I personally consider Warframe pay-to-win, but I also don't see their pay-to-win style as a bad thing.

You are also misusing that term. P2W is a bad thing, it means you are enforced to pay to be able to compete. In warframe there is no competition in the first place and you have no advantage over full free to play player even after spending 10k$, he will catch up and there wont be any difference between you and him.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

My point is that "RPG" no longer means "a game in which you roleplay". Yeah, Elder Scrolls and such are RPGs, but you don't really do much roleplaying in them. RPG just means "a game in which you level up and get better gear" now; the meaning of the words behind the acronym no longer accurately describes the genre. Likewise, ARPG isn't just any RPG with action combat, it's a specific subgenre of Diablo-clones, also not accurately described by the words behind the acronym. Language is weird like that.

So you do pronounce it "jif", then?

Except that the Diablo engine was created specifically for the game and its features, as was the UI.

The opinions of experts matter in matters of opinion, not in matters of fact. I wouldn't care one bit if Einstein himself told me grass was blue, I know it isn't so. Same thing with this.

Also, The Last Jedi was the best addition to Star Wars since 1983.

I guess I'm a bit further along than you, although you do say yourself that kuva is the only material that really matters and requires farming, the game basically showers you will all the other ones. I don't think it matters how many materials require farming. You run into tedium and frustration deliberately inserted into the game to 'motivate' you to pay money every time you farm, regardless of whether you're farming for one material or a dozen different ones. Call me crazy, but I don't think tedium and frustration are things that should be deliberately put into a game.

Your point is extremely flawed though because you use the phrase "no longer" when we are talking about games that dates back to the early to mid 90's of the last milennia. The concept of Elder Scroll games hasnt changed much since the first release which was Arena, not until ESO was released, which took the game series from the free roam nature and placed it on proven MMO themepark rails. Arena has been around as long as Diablo, so both very much classify as part of the arpg genre which saw the light of day at that point in time. You are also mistaking arpgs for isometric arpgs. Diablo introduced and made isometric action rpgs popular. Arpgs exsisted long before that, or have you never played any Zelda games?

No, but when you think about it, jif wouldnt be wrong either since G can sound as J too.

That still doesnt mean it was perfect or witohut limitations. I mean, are we not both playing WF and seeing the leaps this engine has taken over the last 7(!) years and what has been made available and changed due to that. Back in the 90's they had to do what they could during the initial dev time.

You are drawing comparisons out of the blue. This is more than about opinions since this is about the knowledge coming from people that have vast experience within the field for over 30 years. But we should listen to you? You are pretty alone in your opinions here. Those that agree with them are mostly you, you and you.

Last Jedi was utter and total rubbish. The Force Awakens already started the downhill roll and The Last Jedi just took it further and further towards the bottom. Neither of them looks or feels like Star Wars. The only part of the frenchise that has been genuinly good since Disney took over has been Rogue One. And it is sad they cant pull of the atmosphere in the new Star Wars movies when they do a great job capturing that "old feel" in movies such as GotG 1+2, Ragnarok and even Infinity War + Endgame. An atmosphere that Disney completely removed from the new movies even though it has been a very present thing in the other six. Then the characters themselves are just so freakin cringe worthy. Which is sad because Adam Driver is an amazing actor otherwise.

 

[SordidDreams]

7 hours ago, kuciol said:

No. You are just misusing the term. P2W is when you are forced to pay.

[citation needed]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Your point is extremely flawed though because you use the phrase "no longer" when we are talking about games that dates back to the early to mid 90's of the last milennia. The concept of Elder Scroll games hasnt changed much since the first release which was Arena, not until ESO was released, which took the game series from the free roam nature and placed it on proven MMO themepark rails. Arena has been around as long as Diablo, so both very much classify as part of the arpg genre which saw the light of day at that point in time. You are also mistaking arpgs for isometric arpgs. Diablo introduced and made isometric action rpgs popular. Arpgs exsisted long before that, or have you never played any Zelda games?

Yes, the term was getting warped even a long time ago. So? Remember games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment? Those were games you could make meaningful roleplaying choices, especially in the latter. Real roleplaying games have always existed alongside the more shallow kind of RPGs.

If you think Diablo was the first isometric RPG, I suggest you learn your gaming history. The Ultima series managed four isometric games before Diablo, then there was Darklands, and probably a bunch of other games that I don't recall off the top of my head.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No

If you don't find the argument from authority persuasive, don't expect me to.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still doesnt mean it was perfect or witohut limitations. I mean, are we not both playing WF and seeing the leaps this engine has taken over the last 7(!) years and what has been made available and changed due to that. Back in the 90's they had to do what they could during the initial dev time.

Sure, but having more stats on items is not really something limited by technology. That stuff is trivial, and was even then.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are drawing comparisons out of the blue. This is more than about opinions since this is about the knowledge coming from people that have vast experience within the field for over 30 years. But we should listen to you? You are pretty alone in your opinions here. Those that agree with them are mostly you, you and you.

Argument from popularity now? Pointing out that I'm alone in thinking the way I do just makes me feel smarter than everyone else, since nobody else seems to have figured this frankly simple stuff out and won't accept it even when explained at length.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Last Jedi was utter and total rubbish. The Force Awakens already started the downhill roll and The Last Jedi just took it further and further towards the bottom. Neither of them looks or feels like Star Wars. The only part of the frenchise that has been genuinly good since Disney took over has been Rogue One. And it is sad they cant pull of the atmosphere in the new Star Wars movies when they do a great job capturing that "old feel" in movies such as GotG 1+2, Ragnarok and even Infinity War + Endgame. An atmosphere that Disney completely removed from the new movies even though it has been a very present thing in the other six. Then the characters themselves are just so freakin cringe worthy. Which is sad because Adam Driver is an amazing actor otherwise.

This is going off-topic, but needless to say I disagree with everything you said other than that Adam Driver is awesome.

Edited September 7, 2019 by SordidDreams

[cmacq]

12 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Argument from popularity now? Pointing out that I'm alone in thinking the way I do just makes me feel smarter than everyone else, since nobody else seems to have figured this frankly simple stuff out and won't accept it even when explained at length.

Wow! The Donald has taken to posting on these forums as well?

[Bioness]

10 hours ago, DissentWomble said:

 So you don't care even though you quoted and replied to that exact post. Slowclaps. 

I was reposing specifically to the last two sentences (which is obvious when you see the context), but sure nitpick.

13 minutes ago, cmacq said:

Wow! The Donald has taken to posting on these forums as well?

He is courting arrogance, but I agree with him. People in general think in such black and white ways without any thought for nuance.

People in this threads are just mindlessly following the rest of the Warframe hive mind in that they refused, absolutely refused to see how Warframe can be viewed as pay-to-win, despite boosters being so heavily built into the game. Could you imagine the outrage that would come from Path of Exile or World of Warcraft if experience, currency, and resource boosters were added?

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

17 hours ago, kuciol said:

People that dont play game have no right to have opinion. 

Everyone has a right to thier opinion regardless if it's valid or not. It's not your place to judge. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, the term was getting warped even a long time ago. So? Remember games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment? Those were games you could make meaningful roleplaying choices, especially in the latter. Real roleplaying games have always existed alongside the more shallow kind of RPGs.

If you think Diablo was the first isometric RPG, I suggest you learn your gaming history. The Ultima series managed four isometric games before Diablo, then there was Darklands, and probably a bunch of other games that I don't recall off the top of my head.

If you don't find the argument from authority persuasive, don't expect me to.

Sure, but having more stats on items is not really something limited by technology. That stuff is trivial, and was even then.

Argument from popularity now? Pointing out that I'm alone in thinking the way I do just makes me feel smarter than everyone else, since nobody else seems to have figured this frankly simple stuff out and won't accept it even when explained at length.

This is going off-topic, but needless to say I disagree with everything you said other than that Adam Driver is awesome.

ES games also have meaningful choices. 

Not really what I said. I said isometric arpg. And it was also the first point-and-click arpg setup. Or do you now think that all isometric games are the same?

I really dont care.

Yes, those things can be limiting. Just as increasing a currency cap above 9.999.999 should be trivial but isnt possible. It is called unforseen limitations.

No not really, it comes from you having no experience in the area as opposed to someone who has worked with it for 30+ years and done several ground breaking improvements for the genre. It is kinda like refusing to call a trike or a quad a bike cos it has more than two wheels. Even though the designers/builders and the majority of people know that they are indeed bikes.

It is all fine you disagree, because taste is a very independant thing. Much like how beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No one is wrong or right regarding things of taste.

[cmacq]

44 minutes ago, Bioness said:

People in this threads are just mindlessly following the rest of the Warframe hive mind in that they refused, absolutely refused to see how Warframe can be viewed as pay-to-win, despite boosters being so heavily built into the game. Could you imagine the outrage that would come from Path of Exile or World of Warcraft if experience, currency, and resource boosters were added?

I'm sorry but until you tell me just what it is I'm "winning" I'm not buying it. Pay for convenience yes but if you're trying to say that I'm winning my "time" I'm going to come back with: I am choosing to waste my time by playing games in the first place. There are far more productive things I could be doing with it.

[kuciol]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Rust Plague said:

Everyone has a right to thier opinion regardless if it's valid or not. It's not your place to judge. 

Judging is also an opinion and in my opinion they have no right to have one. Its like with flat earthers, they dont know any better and i have the right to call them out. 

2 hours ago, Bioness said:

People in this threads are just mindlessly following the rest of the Warframe hive mind in that they refused, absolutely refused to see how Warframe can be viewed as pay-to-win, despite boosters being so heavily built into the game. Could you imagine the outrage that would come from Path of Exile or World of Warcraft if experience, currency, and resource boosters were added?

Different games, different impact boosters would have. In warframe they are meaningless. You are misusing the term, P2W is reserved for games where payment is required to be relevant. According to your definition there isnt a single game out there that isnt P2W and thats stupid. Its not "hive mind" its just your points are completely ridiculous and nobody agrees.

Edited September 7, 2019 by kuciol

[kuciol]

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

[citation needed]

Nah im done wasting my time on you.

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

3 hours ago, kuciol said:

Judging is also an opinion and in my opinion they have no right to have one. Its like with flat earthers, they dont know any better and i have the right to call them out. 

Funny thing about opinions, your's can be nullified the same way you nullify others. You're not special. 

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

17 hours ago, Bioness said:

You win having your time back and reducing the grind/difficulty of the game. You win by having bigger numbers and better/more mods and equipment than someone else.

The game doesn't TAKE your time. There is no time to buy back. Everything in the game is choice. Pay to skip isn't buying your time back. It's not pay to win either.

As for your second point, that would only matter if others felt the same. You compete alone. You don't need 4 mill red crits to kill everything in the game. If everyone on your squad ran identical set ups (frames, weapons and mods), who is the winner?