Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

No, that's not at all what I said. I said they're mostly worse, which is a very general statement. TES games vary widely, which is better depends on what aspect and installment you're looking at. Main quest choices? Yeah, Skyrim's better, since Skyrim has one unlike Oblivion, and it has more of an impact on the world than the one Morrowind has. Character building? Eh... the earlier ones are certainly more complex, but if you're been paying attention to what I said about ARPG stats, it won't surprise you that I'm not convinced that makes them better.

Please explain the difference in detail.

Eh... that's technically true for VI, VII, and VII 2. But they were still desribed as isometric in the same way that the term RPG is used for games that don't contain any actual roleplaying.

Regardless, there's still Ultima 8, which was truly isometric in 1994, three years before Diablo. So again, maybe look into what I'm saying before you disagree with it.

Still a matter of opinion, but it doesnt change that they are rpgs.

Simply a real time combat game, like many of the U series are more similar to a tab target game than an action system, it is a system somewhere in between. There are no turns, but the combat isnt fluid like that of an arpg. You can just look at zelda to get a grasp of what an old arpg is like, then look at diablo to see how it has evolved.

They may have been called so but they do not fit the actual term of isometric when it comes to gaming. Installment 8 does, however it is not an arpg since it continutes on the real time combat system instead. Installment 9 is an arpg though, but not something new or genre defining since that was already done with Arena in 94.

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Still a matter of opinion, but it doesnt change that they are rpgs.

In the sense that you level up, improve your stats, and upgrade your gear, yes. In terms of actual roleplaying, only barely.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Simply a real time combat game, like many of the U series are more similar to a tab target game than an action system, it is a system somewhere in between. There are no turns, but the combat isnt fluid like that of an arpg. You can just look at zelda to get a grasp of what an old arpg is like, then look at diablo to see how it has evolved.

A few minutes of watching an Ultima 8 gameplay video conclusively prove this wrong. Maybe you should've done that.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

They may have been called so but they do not fit the actual term of isometric when it comes to gaming. Installment 8 does, however it is not an arpg since it continutes on the real time combat system instead. Installment 9 is an arpg though, but not something new or genre defining since that was already done with Arena in 94.

Um, what? Are you comparing a 3rd-person game to a 1st-person one? As for Arena, I'm not sure what the "that" was that it did in 94, but I can tell you Ultima Underworld did the 1st-person action combat way earlier. Arena was groundbreaking in the size of its world, not much else.

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

Technically every game that lets you assume the roll (ie play as that character. For example pac man...) constitutes as a Roll Playing Game. You control that characters' actions, thus taking on it's roll. You all are caught up with arbitrary extras that are nothing more than more options for control. 

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

And one more thing. I'm a bit fuzzy as to what constitutes winning in warframe. I'm Mr 27 and have completed the base game, have every weapon, frame, pet and multiples enough of everything to make a second account and do it again. I even have my own clan completed.  When do I win? What do/did I win?

[SneakyErvin]

11 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

In the sense that you level up, improve your stats, and upgrade your gear, yes. In terms of actual roleplaying, only barely.

A few minutes of watching an Ultima 8 gameplay video conclusively prove this wrong. Maybe you should've done that.

Um, what? Are you comparing a 3rd-person game to a 1st-person one? As for Arena, I'm not sure what the "that" was that it did in 94, but I can tell you Ultima Underworld did the 1st-person action combat way earlier. Arena was groundbreaking in the size of its world, not much else.

No game is an rpg then unless it is an MMO, because MMOs (or MUDs) are the only places where you can actually RP outside of your head. No single player game can be an rpg because everything will just be in your head.

Or you know, you could play it like most of us have in order to form an opinion and get an actual concept of the differences. You might even have a chance to still pick up Pagan for free on Origin.

3rd person or first person really doesnt matter, the same concept applies. Ultima Underworld is also not an action game, it is more of an early version of tab targetting tied to your mouse cursor. Nowhere near the action combat system of Arena or Ultima 9.

[SneakyErvin]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Rust Plague said:

Technically every game that lets you assume the roll (ie play as that character. For example pac man...) constitutes as a Roll Playing Game. You control that characters' actions, thus taking on it's roll. You all are caught up with arbitrary extras that are nothing more than more options for control. 

He'll never understand it though. He also doesnt understand that what he implies turns pen and paper rpgs into not being rpgs at all. So he pretty much removed the term rpg from exsistance.

[Shinigami_Greed]

I'm going to say it again, and answer the title of the thread directly. 

No.

Absolutely not. 

Nope.

Nuh uh.

You have to be a special kind of... *ahem* not very perceptive to think otherwise.

[SordidDreams]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No game is an rpg then unless it is an MMO, because MMOs (or MUDs) are the only places where you can actually RP outside of your head. No single player game can be an rpg because everything will just be in your head.

Repeating my own poitns back at me? Tsk tsk. There are single-player games that give you choices and acknowledge your decisions, Planescape: Torment being a prime example.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Or you know, you could play it like most of us have in order to form an opinion and get an actual concept of the differences. You might even have a chance to still pick up Pagan for free on Origin.

I was trying to suggest the easiest and quickest method for you.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

3rd person or first person really doesnt matter, the same concept applies. Ultima Underworld is also not an action game, it is more of an early version of tab targetting tied to your mouse cursor. Nowhere near the action combat system of Arena or Ultima 9.

Have you ever heard the term Gish Gallop? You're putting forward so many falsehoods that I can't keep up refuting them.

[Baterial]

P2W in let's be clear non pvp game? what?

[EmberStar]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No game is an rpg then unless it is an MMO, because MMOs (or MUDs) are the only places where you can actually RP outside of your head. No single player game can be an rpg because everything will just be in your head.

I disagree with this.  A game like Fallout 4 might have very *narrow* RP compared to "anything you can imagine."  But it and similar games like Mass Effect do give you a chance to decide how to play the preset main character.  You can be snarky but basically good hearted, go full Lawful Doormat and help everyone, or just be in it for the money and the chance to kill people.  You can take it even further with companion choice and combat style, since some companions will lean more or less towards "kill them all, then kill them again" as a way to solve problems.

Game like Divinity 2 apparently let you make any character you want, and play them basically however you choose within the limits of the game mechanics.  You can even kill basically everyone, including quest givers and major NPCs.  You can also apparently solve several quests with obscure "but I guess that makes sense" choices.  Like if you learn to talk to animals, and decide to track down a missing person by asking their DOG to help you look.  You can't go completely off the rails and decide to NOT start the game as a prisoner trying to break out of a certain-death oubliette.  But you can definitely decide if your character is or isn't a homicidal nut-ball who *deserved* to be locked up in the first place.  You can't choose literally everything about your character, no.  But then depending on your game master, you can't do that in a pen and paper game either.  "No, for the last time you can NOT BE A BORG.  This isn't Star Trek, this is a low fantasy game where no one can even make working magical limbs.  STOP ASKING."

And my experience is largely that MMOs are *terrible* for role playing.  At least of the ones I've run into, MMO "role players" are very often god-moders, Mary Sues, or just not terribly creative.  (Such as the time in SWTOR I saw two Troopers actually arguing that they were BOTH canonically married to the same NPC companion.  Because the story said so!)  The gameplay mechanics almost never support RP as a primary, secondary goal, or even as a desirable side effect.  "WTF noob!  Don u no u rotation?  U SUK!"  [The group has voted to kick you.]  Heck, you can barely even see the preset story half the time, because the devs insist on locking massive chunks of it behind dungeons/raids/flashpoints, and you can't read the subtiltes for all the people telling you to "skip the **** cutscenes or we'll kick you!"

And why does it matter if the role play is "only in my head?"  If it affects how I perceive and remember the story, does it matter that no one else sees it?  I mean, outside of the people you game with in a pen-and-paper setting, nothing you do there matters to anyone outside your group.  It certainly has no effect on the "official" story used to decide what sourcebooks and adventure modules the company will print next.  Just because *your* group killed Tiamat in your game doesn't mean everyone else has to stop including her, or would even consider doing so.

Edited September 10, 2019 by EmberStar

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, Baterial said:

P2W in let's be clear non pvp game? what?

Usually that pops up when there's some thing you can buy in the game store that affects gameplay (like a powerful weapon) and can't get any other way.  Sometimes people will tolerate it more or less, depending on how powerful it is compared to "everything else" and how competitive the game is even without PVP.  For example, Star Trek Online lets you buy Teir 6 ships.  These are simply *better* than the ones you earn through normal gameplay.  They have better stats, usually come with a unique "super power" which is sometimes *very* useful, and are often based on well known ships from the shows and movies.  It is possible to get Tier 6 ships as event rewards though, although they're usually weird "alien" faction ships and not ones that necessarily ever appeared in the shows.

People mostly shrug and just keep playing, because the game doesn't really have many situations where it makes all that much difference.  All the missions and even the "open world" battlezone areas are instanced, and if someone has a stupidly overpowered ship it just means everyone in the mission gets done faster.  With a few exceptions, one of the recent lockbox ships came with a unique type of weapon that was flat out broken and allowed damage stacking to such absurd levels that people in the same mission were getting flagged as AFK because they did zero damage to anything.  The ship in question could clear every single enemy on the map in literally like fifteen seconds.  Many people cynically noticed that this didn't get patched until just *after* the lockbox event ended though.

On the other hand, I've seen articles about people going completely bonkers because "some cash store weapon" is clearly way better than anything you can get any other way.  Like if DE released a new "Umbra Prime" version of a warframe that has twice the base stats of the "normal" Primed version.  It also has powers that are twice as effective, and cost half as much energy (and that's on top of having twice the Energy pool of a normal Prime.)  And can't be gotten from any method in-game.  But you *can* buy it for only $99.99, what a bargain!  Whatever the item is, it's usually way better than anything else, sometimes to the point of trivializing basically any content.  "Oh, great.  I see the new 'I win!' button is in the store now.  Wheee."

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

He'll never understand it though. He also doesnt understand that what he implies turns pen and paper rpgs into not being rpgs at all. So he pretty much removed the term rpg from exsistance.

Not understanding doesn't make it untrue.

I will repeat myself since others here fail basic comprehension. Any game that allows you to control a character constitutes as an RPG. Roll playing game. You take on the roll. This includes fighting games. You play as Ryu and take on his roll in the tournament. Extra stats and numbers are just that. 

Someone please explain what constitutes winning in warframe?

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, EmberStar said:

I disagree with this.

It is good you do because it wasnt my opinion. It was just an example of what Sordid's ideas actually mean to the term rpg.

[DrakeWurrum]

Nope. Nothing in the Market helps you win.

Unless by "win" you mean fashionframe.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Repeating my own poitns back at me? Tsk tsk. There are single-player games that give you choices and acknowledge your decisions, Planescape: Torment being a prime example.

I was trying to suggest the easiest and quickest method for you.

Have you ever heard the term Gish Gallop? You're putting forward so many falsehoods that I can't keep up refuting them.

That really doesnt make it more rpg though because that same concept also belongs to many sports games. It is also a very common thing in all TES games, which you somehow dont classify as rpgs. It is even part of certain arpgs. Not to the same extent, but it doesnt make them less part of the rpg genre.

Yes but I've also played those games throughout my early youth and revisited them a few times over the years.

Those arent falsehoods, except in your own very specific view. A view which only you seem to share with yourself.

edit: I'm starting to wonder if you've played any of the games you bring up or if you are just a wiki-warrior or googlezerker.

Edited September 10, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is also a very common thing in all TES games, which you somehow dont classify as rpgs.

Okay, if you're going to repeatedly make false claims about what I say despite me repeatedly correcting you, this conversation is not going to go very well for you. I'm not even going to read further until you retract that and apologize for intentionally misrepresenting my statements.

[EmberStar]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is good you do because it wasnt my opinion. It was just an example of what Sordid's ideas actually mean to the term rpg.

My apologies, I hadn't read the entire thread to that point.  I jumped to the last page and your post is the one that leapt out at me as I skimmed over it.

[Goodwill]

11 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Nope. Nothing in the Market helps you win.

Unless by "win" you mean fashionframe.

You know FashionFrame is the only relevant content in the game. Therefore Warframe is definitely P2W.

[SordidDreams]

3 hours ago, EmberStar said:

My apologies, I hadn't read the entire thread to that point.  I jumped to the last page and your post is the one that leapt out at me as I skimmed over it.

Maybe you should read it, because that guy is deliberately misrepresenting what I said. You seem to have your head screwed on right, so if choose to take the time, I'm sure you'll see the truth of it very easily.

Edited September 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[TheNasky]

I dont understand what do you mean.

aura formas are available to buy with ingame currency, there is no need to pay at all. they cost 80 platinum each, wich is not much if you really need one for some reason. like, new players can farm 80 platinum in a couple hours with no problem. and anyway, is not like aura formas make you win anything.

 so i have to ask, what do you mean with "pay2win"? 

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

Sorry to bring back a dead thread, but this video might be relevant to this thread.
This is regarding one of the bundles in the old blood update that just came out yesterday.

TL;DW:

The bundle is a one time purchase but that's still being handed out too be able to kill around 4 - 7+ liches before you would have to replace the mods depending on what requiem mods are required for you to kill each lich you create; that sounds like paying for a headstart ahead of those who don't pay for the bundle and exclusive cosmetics are locked behind paying for that bundle. Great looking cosmetics and seven bundle exclusive color palettes at that.

Edited November 1, 2019 by (XB1)falconpwnch0234
Added a summary at the bottom.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (XB1)falconpwnch0234 said:

Sorry to bring back a dead thread, but this video might be relevant to this thread.
This is regarding one of the bundles in the old blood update that just came out yesterday.

 

No, not really.

Requiem mods are not only consumed on finishing a Lich, but there's 336 possible combinations of Requiems and Requiem Orders, meaning that you'll still have to go through the dance of slaughtering the Thralls if you want a decent chance at actually killing your lich first time, even if you have them.

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, not really.

Requiem mods are not only consumed on finishing a Lich, but there's 336 possible combinations of Requiems and Requiem Orders, meaning that you'll still have to go through the dance of slaughtering the Thralls if you want a decent chance at actually killing your lich first time, even if you have them.

True, but it's still kind of concerning nonetheless. I do want to say that I understand giving out a requiem relic pack in the bundle, but also handing out the mods is kind of suspect.

Edited November 1, 2019 by (XB1)falconpwnch0234

[Loza03]

Just now, (XB1)falconpwnch0234 said:

True, but it's still kind of concerning nonetheless. I do want to say that I understand giving out a requiem relic pack in the bundle, but also handing out the mods is kind of suspect.

Requiem Relics don't just contain Requiem mods though, they also contain other things related to this update.

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Requiem Relics don't just contain Requiem mods though, they also contain other things related to this update.

That's not what I was trying to say; in fact what you said is why I said I understand why DE would supply those relic packs in the bundle.

Edited November 1, 2019 by (XB1)falconpwnch0234