Why not just add a store system?

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

30 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The hilarious and ironic part is that when one of you finally does decide to act in good faith and take me up on my suggestion, you're going to feel really silly for this nonsense.

Right. Witch hunt for the truth or you simple provide it. 

Instead of you fueling silly nonsense...

 

[Avienas]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

The fee can't be in plat, for reasons stated earlier, but it could be in other resources. Endo might be a decent idea to play with. Sure, some players have enough to not really care either way, but that would be true no matter what resource you use. The point is to make it something anyone MR 2 has access to, and something they can afford to use for this, but not something people don't entirely disregard (like credits or common materials).

Endo would certainly be a good way to restrain it especially if its put for say a price of 4k endo per 24 hours you want it up, but then that is subjected to a mess of just pushing players more to stock endo. One of the ideas a player had of limited listings could also work.

Such as maybe a player can only list items once they are at MR 4 and at MR 10/16/22 they get extra slots to list additional items up to a limit of 4 at a time(maybe prevent each slot from being used till several hours after its posting, regardless if it never got bought or did so people would think more on what they want to put up then just put whatever the heck they want like a bunch of garbage riven mods), plus of course a penalty fee for updating listings. 

In addition to either showing the pricing history (aka FF11 styled auction house) so players do not know what others are posting the offers at or what they are actively offering at, just what the last values were bidded and succeeded, plus the reverse auction idea where people see your post, throw up offers like they are writing on a notepad attach to your listing, you pick one of them and it sends the item to them, you pick up the plat they put down in a deposit and they get the item in the inbox, with of course all the other offers would get their platinum back once they either retract it, it expires, you cancel the listing or its completed.

Never the less, something being done would be much better then nothing at all being done, since just like a player who pmo another player to sell/buy something from them and they get no response at all, its a frustrating mess for no active chatter to occur over it so the ones who develop the game clearly show they are noticing how much talk about said systems is going on at the time. Especially if they are RECONSIDERING the idea of doing nothing to the market chat, which was quite a while back when one of them saying they would not be doing anything to market chat.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Avienas

[FrostDragoon]

Those are all excessively heavy-handed. There's no need to meet a "middle ground" with the anti-AHers, because they don't know anything anyway.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

10 hours ago, Fsunate said:

As one person in this thread has already stated "there is no negotiating"  and this is true!  I've sent many pms looking to buy items and the classic response is /offer, so I respond and get the /nty and ignored.  There's no bartering and for the most part talking to people about trading is toxic, this thread is a key indicator of that. 

Sounds like you are doing it wrong. There's bartering, where you try to get the best price that you both consider fair, and then there is bartering where you insult the person you're trying to deal with because what the two of you consider fair have no chance of overlapping. 

I barter all the time, often trading for stuff I want at below market values. If you are having trouble doing that, something is probably wrong. 

[Jax_Cavalera]

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Are there player run stores where every single item is being offered for a single coin/credit/gem/gold/turkey feather /whatever currency they use? Because if so, then that is proof that the race to zero was and continues to be, a thing. 

There are player run stores as well and there are usually for bulks or special rares at higher markup.

 

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yeah looks like you didn't recognise what you were seeing. Thanks for confirming that it's a thing.

Seasonal..aka vaulted primes and event specific mod drops.. seems I did.
 

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That's something that some idiot came up with as a reason for them not getting the auction house they got. Nobody who actually thinks about it would make such a silly claim for reasons that would be obvious to anyone with more than two brain cells. (In case they're not obvious, a larger percentage of the players would have to buy small amounts of plat just to be able to continue playing the game, since that's going to be the only way most of them can get plat thanks to the stupid auction house crashing the economy. Of course in the long run this would mean fewer and fewer players, which is obviously not a good idea.) 

Or perhaps they introduce more seasonals... not that hard to solve. Primes weren't always seasonal same could happen to other items

 

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You really should have looked at what you wrote there, realised that this is a rather major difference, and not tried to claim that apples are the same as oranges.

I suppose when you own a mod or warframe in game it expires like a consumable right? Oh wait.. they don't

[FrostDragoon]

Jax, this guy is a troll. Have your fun with him if you like, but don't take him seriously. He's not.

[sam686]

I would, maybe, like to see an option to build a store room in Dojo. Maybe an option to search for other player's store when looking for items would be nice as well.

Such negotiation or whisper may often not work with language barrier like "asdfasdf asdf asdfasdfasdf?" or something I don't understand because of wrong language, so having a store will work better.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

There are player run stores as well and there are usually for bulks or special rares at higher markup.

Like I said. 

Quote

Seasonal..aka vaulted primes and event specific mod drops.. seems I did.

Sorry but that has nothing to do with the bit you were responding to. I was pointing out that what you described was actually the race to zero. "Stores" where any item would sell for the lowest amount of 'credits' they could be listed for. 

Quote

Or perhaps they introduce more seasonals... not that hard to solve. Primes weren't always seasonal same could happen to other items

Right, so in order to make the suggestion that you want to implement work, they'd only need to completely rework the entire economy of the game to make items significantly more rare than at current? And it still wouldn't work because in this game, we only ever need one of any given item? 

Seems like a lot of effort just to crash an economy, if you ask me. 

 

Quote

I suppose when you own a mod or warframe in game it expires like a consumable right? Oh wait.. they don't

No, that's rather the point. And the difference is that even the most ridiculous troll on this thread, who made a fool of himself by saying that "buy once own forever" doesn't apply in this game because he has 3 unique copies of a specific mod, only managed to highlight that each of the copies was unique because they're different ranks. 

We need one, not more, of each unique item. They don't degrade or need repair. There's only one way that I know of to actually lose your gear during normal play, and even that requires a bit of effort since most people don't seem to manage to pull it off. 

This is important because it means that while supply approaches infinite, demand is highly finite. Anyone who has acquired the item in question is unlikely to require another. There are exceptions but they only serve to prove the rule. 

What you described for that game is a situation where demand for any given item isn't necessarily finite. That's a fundamental difference between the models of the two games. You're comparing apples and potatoes and trying to claim that they're interchangeable. 

[Jax_Cavalera]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Like I said. 

Thriving player store markets where it's easier to sell bulk seasonals than via a 1 at a time AH and they sell special rares so players can see / interact with the item before buying at higher markup seems in direct contrast to what you have been saying.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Sorry but that has nothing to do with the bit you were responding to. I was pointing out that what you described was actually the race to zero. "Stores" where any item would sell for the lowest amount of 'credits' they could be listed for.

But they don't, the only things that sell dirt low are the items you can get anytime.. anywhere. Anything seasonal / rare holds value. Seasonals experience a price "wave" but it always averages out. In terms of supply/demand this makes logical sense as well I would be surprised to find a game where something you can get anytime / anywhere would be worth anything of real value if it's not a consumable.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Quote

I suppose when you own a mod or warframe in game it expires like a consumable right? Oh wait.. they don't

No, that's rather the point.

Is it though because the following 2 sentences back to back are contradictory?

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

made a fool of himself by saying that "buy once own forever" doesn't apply in this game because he has 3 unique copies of a specific mod

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

We need one, not more, of each unique item.

Either you only need 1 of each mod in the game or you don't.. sorry you can't have it both ways when it suits.. and clearly your first point highlights they needed 1 at each rank the mod offered and then you attempted to prove a point using semantics that unique ranks make a mod unique.. but sadly wrong again.. coz sentinel weapons cannot share the same mod if in use by an active warframe weapon you need 2 copies of the exact same mod at the same rank (provided you've collected 1 of each at every possible rank available)

All I can see is name calling and fear mongering the reality is.. an AH is good for this game and it's not going to be a full market crash.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Thriving player store markets where it's easier to sell bulk seasonals than via a 1 at a time AH and they sell special rares so players can see / interact with the item before buying at higher markup seems in direct contrast to what you have been saying.

Again you're confusing the value imparted by rarity, with the income due to having those stores/AHs. 

Riven mods are just about the only truly rare items that we have. We both know what sort of prices the truly good ones can command. And that's in the absence of an auction house. So we can see that the auction house isn't the thing that's providing the value. 

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

But they don't, the only things that sell dirt low are the items you can get anytime.. anywhere. Anything seasonal / rare holds value. Seasonals experience a price "wave" but it always averages out. In terms of supply/demand this makes logical sense as well I would be surprised to find a game where something you can get anytime / anywhere would be worth anything of real value if it's not a consumable.

Again, you misunderstand. In warframe even our prime vault doesn't impart true rarity. I dump most of my stuff into Baro's vending machines, but I usually keep at least 3 copies of any given item. I mostly hold those for if I run into newer players, so I can just give them a neat present and blow their socks off. But imagine if I decided to sell some of those sets because it would be easier, and I could sell just a few items, use the plat to buy prime junk, and end up with thousands of ducats at the end of the week. 

I have absolutely no doubt that some players are sitting on a dragon's hoard of vaulted prime parts that would make my 3 copies look like a beggar's bowl. Want to guess what would happen to the prices if we all decide to get in on the auction house? Here's a hint, it's the same thing that happened when DE gave away Ash, Nekros, and arcanes in nightwave. 

And no, the effects aren't as temporary as people assume. Because again, those of us who have built these items, no longer need to buy them. Ever. 

Rivens are among the few things that are truly rare. They're the only ones who will definitely benefit from the nonsense you lot are proposing. 

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Either you only need 1 of each mod in the game or you don't.. sorry you can't have it both ways when it suits.. and clearly your first point highlights they needed 1 at each rank the mod offered and then you attempted to prove a point using semantics that unique ranks make a mod unique.. but sadly wrong again.. coz sentinel weapons cannot share the same mod if in use by an active warframe weapon you need 2 copies of the exact same mod at the same rank (provided you've collected 1 of each at every possible rank available

Seriously, read the ridiculous argument you're trying to make.

The ranks do make the mod unique, because you cannot substitute one for the other and achieve the same result. That's the definition of unique. Even the example given earlier of having 3 (count them) copies of adaptation, specified that they had different ranks. Why do you think that they didn't have 3 of the same rank? What's your explanation for that. 

And yes, sentinels do need an extra copy. How many extra copies do you need to sort out all of your sentinels? Do you realise that you're holding up one tiny and highly specific thing and trying to use it as proof that people are going to be buying items that they already own, when it obviously doesn't apply to the majority of the items people trade in this game? I'm sorry, but what you're holding up so proudly as proof of an exception, is actually just proof of the rule. 

Now, if you want to show me how everyone needs to build a potentially infinite number of Rhino Primes to decorate their space Habbo then we can discuss how demand isn't going to be outstripped by supply on day 1. Until then, you should probably feel silly about holding up the few mods that can be used on multiple equipped items at the same time, as proof of "there's more demand than you think". 

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

All I can see is name calling and fear mongering the reality is.. an AH is good for this game and it's not going to be a full market crash.

Then you need new glasses, or a seeing eye dog. 

[FrostDragoon]

6 hours ago, sam686 said:

I would, maybe, like to see an option to build a store room in Dojo. Maybe an option to search for other player's store when looking for items would be nice as well.

Such negotiation or whisper may often not work with language barrier like "asdfasdf asdf asdfasdfasdf?" or something I don't understand because of wrong language, so having a store will work better.

You're talking about something more like Elder Scrolls Online's system?

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-09-09 at 3:33 AM, GinKenshin said:

not perfect, at least not for DE. They want you to take time to get plat. If it's as easy as putting an item on a board and getting free plat if someone buys is they plat and PA/PV sales will go down the hole. If you want plat, then spend the time making it, period. 

There is no such a thing as free platinum.

[Jax_Cavalera]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again you're confusing the value imparted by rarity, with the income due to having those stores/AHs. 

I'm simply saying that having the AH had no impact on rares or seasonals, there's no confusion about the value imparted by these item types as this remains stable with slight price rises each year for the limited rares.
 

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again, you misunderstand. In warframe even our prime vault doesn't impart true rarity

The point I made is that the prime vault generates seasonals, not rares, this is likely where the confusion has stemmed from.
 

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I have absolutely no doubt that some players are sitting on a dragon's hoard of vaulted prime parts that would make my 3 copies look like a beggar's bowl. Want to guess what would happen to the prices if we all decide to get in on the auction house? Here's a hint, it's the same thing that happened when DE gave away Ash, Nekros, and arcanes in nightwave. 

Hoarders aren't an unusual thing to find in games related to the collection of seasonals and rares, etc. To compare how this has actually played out in Habbo (just one of who knows how many long standing games with an AH we can look at for reference) the hoarders aren't ignorant to why they started hoarding in the first place. They either

1. Just like a specific item and want an incomprehensible number of it that they take to their account's "grave"
   or
2. They artificially increased the rarity of a given item and wait for the price to go right up. This is the most common scenario and they typically slow sell back into the market place or do a full sale of the entire hoarded stock at a massive markup to another player so the global rarity goes unaffected.
    

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Seriously, read the ridiculous argument you're trying to make.

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And yes, sentinels do need an extra copy.

Wat? It's either ridiculous or it holds water.. and by your own admission it holds water.
 

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

10 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

All I can see is name calling and fear mongering the reality is.. an AH is good for this game and it's not going to be a full market crash.

Then you need new glasses, or a seeing eye dog. 

You throw an insult that implies the other person must be vision impaired or handicapped to the extent they require a seeing eye dog as an argument to prove you aren't depending on insults to get your point across. Wat?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm simply saying that having the AH had no impact on rares or seasonals, there's no confusion about the value imparted by these item types as this remains stable with slight price rises each year for the limited rares.

And we have historical records from when warframe.market was added to the mix that shows differently. People complained about the hit the prices took. 

 

I wonder what could explain the difference between the two different results? 

[FrostDragoon]

What you don't hear is that people are making plat more regularly now, but the people who are happy about that aren't coming here to b!*$#.

[Jax_Cavalera]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

People complained about the hit the prices took. 

Did the price of items crash to zero? Since we've had warframe.market running for a while now, have these prices continued to drop or do they simply go up and down in waves sitting around an average price point?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

14 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Did the price of items crash to zero? Since we've had warframe.market running for a while now, have these prices continued to drop or do they simply go up and down in waves sitting around an average price point?

Based on the threads I've seen complaining about the continuous decline in prices, it's safe to say that they continue to drop, albeit slowly. 

The mitigating factor is that a relatively small number of Tenno actually list things on warframe.market. Your proposal is to make the system immediately available to virtually all Tenno, on all systems. 

[FrostDragoon]

This guy refuses to see the answer for what it is. The AH is already simulated via warframe.market and the economy is fine. People complaining about "price drops" are the same idiots who oppose AH, despite the fact that prices are pretty stable across the board (outside of rivens and arcanes, for other reasons). It's not as if wf market is some hush-hush secret. There are tons of people listing on there. This is just another dumb idea from someone who needs to--as he ironically likes to tell others--educate himself.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

28 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Something? 

Uh... Haven't you noticed that I'm not responding to your posts? (I'm not actually seeing them.)

You've shown yourself to be a troll and a waste of time. I mean feel free to keep posting whatever drivel you want, but I just figured it would be kinder to let you know. 

[FrostDragoon]

As I stated earlier, he's a troll and is now attempting to do so by pretending to "ignore" me. Just ignore his child-like understanding of economics and oversimplified (and false) "arguments."

[Jax_Cavalera]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Based on the threads I've seen complaining about the continuous decline in prices, it's safe to say that they continue to drop, albeit slowly. 

Took a look spot checking random prime "seasonals" and unsurprisingly over the last 90 days the value fluctuates around a stable average line. Only outlier is Rhino Prime set likely coming back down to the regular avg values again from a boost 3 months ago

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Took a look spot checking random prime "seasonals" and unsurprisingly over the last 90 days the value fluctuates around a stable average line. Only outlier is Rhino Prime set likely coming back down to the regular avg values again from a boost 3 months ago

☝️Found the problem for you. 👍

 

Ok ok I will add a link to show that people are indeed complaining about the gradual decline in prices over longer periods of time. You're welcome. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Last paragraph, with link that took all of a few seconds to find.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

"gradual decline in prices over longer periods of time..."

Maybe because there is a lack of demand as most people already have the items in question, or they've been unvaulted several times, increasing the available supply, or newer, better frames or weapons have been released that make previous items/frames less desirable and possibly only wanted to complete collections and MR ranks... or do you expect everything to hold to a specific price over the life of the game? Vaulted things still hold a value, especially for newer people joining now, who never had access to them, and will always hold value to those people, unless new ways to acquire them become available (as has been talked about for the earliest vaulted relics).

I certainly wouldn't attribute this phenomenon solely to the warframe.market... there's more going on here.

As I've said before, allowing everyone access to trading what they have will remove the "false scarcity" that leads to the currently artificially inflated prices of some things, but that's not anything near a "market crash" that doom and gloom people propose. I've experienced enough AH's to know this, playing since Ultima Online days, (and MUDs before that)... what does that make it... 30 years of online gaming. Yeah, at least 30 years of experience in many games. AH's don't ruin economies. I'm getting tired of this blame game and scapegoating to defend the laziness of not adding this feature to a modern game.

Yeah, this is starting to frustrate me... the whole banging one's head against a brick wall phenomenon I hate forums for. Almost pointless to discuss this with other players. Perhaps the absurdity of the claims against AH's will pile up enough to change something in the minds of the devs, when faced with the creative solutions presented in past games and with currently still working AH's not ruining their economies.

(the fact that this game uses the premium currency is a notch in its favor, not against it, btw... as I've tried to point out several times. In-game currency AH's are easily plagued by run-away inflation (mudflation) due to infinite methods to make it, trying to balance it with currency sinks in the form of fees, consumables, travel costs, etc, which are all unnecessary in Warframe, being entirely protected from this downside to in-game economies, due to the currency requiring real money to introduce to the mix.)

And thus, the headache starts again. It just pains me to watch these points (and others) go completely ignored, while the same old trash talk is dished out against AH's, based on "economics" students who think they just know this economy would be ruined if everybody got a chance to take part in it.

[FrostDragoon]

I love how that awful topic is his "prime example," lmao. What a tool.

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

As I've said before, allowing everyone access to trading what they have will remove the "false scarcity" that leads to the currently artificially inflated prices of some things, but that's not anything near a "market crash" that doom and gloom people propose. I've experienced enough AH's to know this, playing since Ultima Online days, (and MUDs before that)... what does that make it... 30 years of online gaming. Yeah, at least 30 years of experience in many games. AH's don't ruin economies. I'm getting tired of this blame game and scapegoating to defend the laziness of not adding this feature to a modern game.

Ditto, friendo.