Simple change for opting out of Kuva Liches and getting some breathing room after killing one

[Jarriaga]

Make Kuva Larvings only spawn in Kuva missions (Siphon / Flood / Kuva Survival / Kuva Disruption). 

Reasoning:

1- It's thematically appropriate. Kuva Larvings are announced in-mission by Kuva Guadians. You can only find Kuva Guardians in Kuva-related missions.

2- Kuva as a resource can now be obtained from Arbitrations and Nightwave, so you are no longer forced to do Kuva missions in order to obtain it. 

3- It serves as a balancing mechanic between slow Kuva in Arbitrations/Nightwave vs. Fast Kuva in Siphon/Flood at the risk of spawining a Lich. 

4- You can opt out of the system by not engaging in Kuva missions for those who don't want to be forced to have a Lich rather than avoiding all level 20+ Grineer missions and juggling around actively avoiding an enemy so you don't kill it by mistake. 

5- You can get some breathing room after killing your current Lich without risking creating a new one right away unless you are doing Kuva missions. 

6- You are required to do Kuva Siphon/Flood missions anyway in order to farm Requiem Relics, so engaging with a Kuva Lich will eventually lead you back here.

7- It would make a Kuva Lich feel more special and rare by decreasing the chances of generating one assuming that the Larving is not a guaranteed spawn.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[krc473]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Make Kuva Larvings only spawn in Kuva missions (Siphon / Flood / Kuva Survival / Kuva Disruption). 

My problem: I do not like farming Kuva or doing Kuva missions. I would far prefer it stay as “20+ Grineer missions”. The current system allows me to get a Lich without doing missions I dislike.

 

You can already avoid getting a Lich by not killing the enemy.

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

1- It's thematically appropriate. 

It is a Grineer unit being sent out to die. Why would it only be sent to Kuva missions? Surely it would be more appropriate to target where the player goes - that does assume they can track us though.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I am glad we don't have to do this...I'm just gonna avoid the Grineer Larva after maybe one... so I can say yeah, I went through this here's my honest opinion now that I've seen it first hand. After that I'm just going to see how DE changes this over the course of the year...

Plus here's the thing, why even get invested in these weapons? If one exceeds or meets the meta, it'll get nerfed..if it doesn't it's simply trash anyways and a waste of time...You get a riven for it..Big whoop..it's gonna get nerfed if it's at all fun...or useful..

So all this RNG ontop of RNG and jumping through hoops and paying for mod packs and whatever else  they want you to do with it..in a year or less if it's one shotting high end content ...it'll be trashed if it's too good...

I just don't know anymore, I found some fun modes I enjoy with the frames I have and have committed to simply playing those and watching how it all unfolds before even committing to anything these days..

Edited November 3, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, krc473 said:

My problem: I do not like farming Kuva or doing Kuva missions. I would far prefer it stay as “20+ Grineer missions”. The current system allows me to get a Lich without doing missions I dislike.

 

You can already avoid getting a Lich by not killing the enemy.

Can you avoid killing the Larving in a Defense mission? Are they not counted? 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, krc473 said:

It is a Grineer unit being sent out to die. Why would it only be sent to Kuva missions? Surely it would be more appropriate to target where the player goes - that does assume they can track us though.

Because it's a Grineer spliced with Kuva being introduced by a Kuva Guardian, which is an enemy that you can only fight in Kuva missions? It's as easy as "Guardians, bring the Larving with you when you are siphoning Kuva. I expect the Tenno to be there. Let's give them a surprise". 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Wyrmius_Prime]

19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Make Kuva Larvings only spawn in Kuva missions (Siphon / Flood / Kuva Survival / Kuva Disruption). 

This is terrible considering farming Kuva is the only thing I ever do in this game anymore and Kuva Liches totally suck.

[krc473]

14 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Can you avoid killing the Larving in a Defense mission? Are they not counted? 

I don’t know. I don’t tend to bother with Defence missions. 

16 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Guardians, bring the Larving with you when you are siphoning Kuva. I expect the Tenno to be there. Let's give them a surprise". 

Look at the intro video. That suggested that the unit gets killed someone and then collected and returned to the Queen. So, provided the Larvling can be “found and returned” it is perfectly logical. You wouldn’t have to restrict it to Kuva missions. Keep in mind also that Guardians can appear on any node with a Kuva Siphon - they must get there somehow and therefore also be able to go there to collect a corpse without a Siphon.

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

This is terrible considering farming Kuva is the only thing I ever do in this game anymore and Kuva Liches totally suck.

You do realize that Kuva missions are not currently except of Kuva Larvings, right?

The only difference between what I'm proposing and what we currently have is that the rest of the game would be spared. You can farm Kuva other ways. You can't avoid killing a Larving by mistake in some mission types.

And you still have to do Kuva Siphon/Flood in order to farm Requiem relics. You can't avoid that if you want to kill your Lich.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, krc473 said:

I don’t know. I don’t tend to bother with Defence missions. 

What you do or don't do doesn't change what is. You can't avoid killing a Larving by mistake in some mission types.

restricting the type of mission you can get them to spawn would serve as an optional "at your own risk" mechanic.

And even if you don't want to do Kuva Siphon/Flood missions, you are required to do them anyway in order to get Requiem relics.

3 hours ago, krc473 said:

Look at the intro video. That suggested that the unit gets killed someone and then collected and returned to the Queen. So, provided the Larvling can be “found and returned” it is perfectly logical. 

That's happening backstage. It doesn't relate to how they are introduced in mission.

3 hours ago, krc473 said:

You wouldn’t have to restrict it to Kuva missions. Keep in mind also that Guardians can appear on any node with a Kuva Siphon - they must get there somehow and therefore also be able to go there to collect a corpse without a Siphon.

Did you read the opening post? How does that contradict what I said? You only find Guardians in Kuva missions; Kuva Siphons are Kuva missions. Guardians announce Larvings. Makes sense that you could only find a Larving where a Guardian is present.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Make Kuva Larvings only spawn in Kuva missions (Siphon / Flood / Kuva Survival / Kuva Disruption). 

Reasoning:

1- It's thematically appropriate. 

2- Kuva as a resource can now be obtained from Arbitrations and Nightwave, so you are no longer forced to do Kuva missions in order to obtain it. 

3- It serves as a balancing mechanic between slow Kuva in Arbitrations/Nightwave vs. Fast Kuva in Siphon/Flood at the risk of spawining a Lich. 

4- You can opt out of the system by not engaging in said missions for those who don't want to be forced to have a Lich. 

5- You can get some breathing room after killing your current Lich without risking creating a new one right away unless you are doing Kuva missions. 

I like this idea, a lot of players who want to avoid the lich would benefit from this a lot, considering how easy is to get kuva from arbitrations and nightwave

[Wyrmius_Prime]

49 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You do realize that Kuva missions are not currently except of Kuva Larvings, right?

The only difference between what I'm proposing and what we currently have is that the rest of the game would be spared. You can farm Kuva other ways. You can't avoid killing a Larving by mistake in some mission types.

And you still have to do Kuva Siphon/Flood in order to farm Requiem relics. You can't avoid that if you want to kill your Lich.

Kuva larvas only spawn in missions once Sedna is unlocked in regular missions. They do not spawn in alerts, sorties, fissures or any other type of special mission. How exactly does them spawning in regular missions with no rewards hinder your gameplay in any possible way? Any meaningful mission will NOT spawn a larva or trigger a Lich, and thus the rest of the game is already spared.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Wyrmius_Prime

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

 How exactly does them spawning in regular missions with no rewards hinder your gameplay in any possible way?

In case you have not been paying attention to the forums or in case you are being intentionally obtuse, the number of complaints from people who don't want to engage with the Kuva Lich system at all and the number of people who want some breathing room after killing a Lich instead of generating a new one by mistake right away indicates that a pause is needed with regards to how they are generated.

They don't feel special if you create them all the time. 

They are obnoxious if you see them all the time. People are even starting to abort missions when their Lich spawns because they don't want to deal with it.

You have to juggle your way around not killing an enemy to avoid creating one, which in certain mission types like Defense is nearly impossible.

All of that can be addressed by just limiting the type of missions the Larving is allowed to spawn.

3 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Any meaningful mission will NOT spawn a larva or trigger a Lich, and thus the rest of the game is already spared.

Wrong. Can't go to Hydron, Adaro or Selene anymore without risking it.

Those are nodes use for weapon leveling, Orokin Cell farming, focus farming, and for completing Riven challenges.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, xHeretic said:

I like this idea, a lot of players who want to avoid the lich would benefit from this a lot, considering how easy is to get kuva from arbitrations and nightwave

Indeed.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Wrong. Can't go to Hydron, Adaro or Selene anymore without risking it.

Those are nodes use for weapon leveling, Orokin Cell farming, focus farming, and for completing Riven challenges.

Imagine not having 10k spare cells in the current year. Also if you are farming outside of ESO at any point you'd deserve to have 10 Liches after you at all times.

 

I still think DE shouldn't completely ruin Kuva missions with the Liches. The content is so goddamn awful. There should be an option to simply opt out COMPLETELY out of Liches no matter what mission you are doing. Better yet, remove the S#&$e content from the entire game.

[ant99999]

What I want to suggest depends on the usefulness of an allied lich, but in case it is indeed useful, how about give them an option to sacrifice themselves to prevent creation of a new lich (for two weeks for example).

This way you still have to deal with at least one lich, and you are paying a price for getting rid of spawning another.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Imagine not having 10k spare cells in the current year. Also if you are farming outside of ESO at any point you'd deserve to have 10 Liches after you at all times.

Because newly built frames and newly Forma'd frames can be used in ESO.... 

3 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

There should be an option to simply opt out COMPLETELY out of Liches no matter what mission you are doing.

I don't think a total and complete opt out is a sensible solution. It leaves no middle ground that respects DE as a developer and the effort that they put so you can engage with the system. Similar to how the Stalker works, you only generate one by engaging in a specific behavior. 

3 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Better yet, remove the S#&$e content from the entire game.

Nah.I like the system. I just think it needs some tweaks.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, ant99999 said:

What I want to suggest depends on the usefulness of an allied lich, but in case it is indeed useful, how about give them an option to sacrifice themselves to prevent creation of a new lich (for two weeks for example).

This way you still have to deal with at least one lich, and you are paying a price for getting rid of spawning another.

A cooldown between Lich generation (Say, 7-10 days) could also work. I just think that it would then create friction with those who already (Understandably) feel DE is dragging the process along with the RNG walls, the inability to reliably affect the type of weapon/bonuses on your Lich, the Requiem relic acquisition method, and the Thrall Requiem whispers.

No solution is perfect. At the end, restricting the mission type that generate them and/or a cooldown are the best options.

Another alternative would be to increase the enemy level requirement in regular missions to 50 before a Larving can spawn. Reasoning? Kuva Thrall missions are level 50, so it makes no sense to generate a Lich at level 20 only for related missions to jump right away to 50, and then to 70 in Requiem Fissures. The downside to this option would be how it would hurt endurance runs. People would start leaving early to avoid facing a Larving.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

Can a mod please move this thread to feedback? Thanks!

[EdDiesel]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Make Kuva Larvings only spawn in Kuva missions (Siphon / Flood / Kuva Survival / Kuva Disruption). 

Reasoning:

1- It's thematically appropriate. Kuva Larvings are announced in-mission by Kuva Guadians. You can only find Kuva Guardians in Kuva-related missions.

2- Kuva as a resource can now be obtained from Arbitrations and Nightwave, so you are no longer forced to do Kuva missions in order to obtain it. 

3- It serves as a balancing mechanic between slow Kuva in Arbitrations/Nightwave vs. Fast Kuva in Siphon/Flood at the risk of spawining a Lich. 

4- You can opt out of the system by not engaging in Kuva missions for those who don't want to be forced to have a Lich rather than avoiding all level 20+ Grineer missions and juggling around actively avoiding an enemy so you don't kill it by mistake. 

5- You can get some breathing room after killing your current Lich without risking creating a new one right away unless you are doing Kuva missions. 

6- You are required to do Kuva Siphon/Flood missions anyway in order to farm Requiem Relics, so engaging with a Kuva Lich will eventually lead you back here.

7- It would make a Kuva Lich feel more special and rare by decreasing the chances of generating one assuming that the Larving is not a guaranteed spawn.

Perhaps after the fist few they could tone down spawn to make it feel more relevant instead of it instantly gaining territory after larva dies and another being available as soon as one is killed. Players will just kill one, find larva. spawn a new lich, rinse and repeat making the lich more of a repetitive grind then a unique experience that ties you into the universe.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, EdDiesel said:

Perhaps after the fist few they could tone down spawn to make it feel more relevant instead of it instantly gaining territory after larva dies and another being available as soon as one is killed. Players will just kill one, find larva. spawn a new lich, rinse and repeat making the lich more of a repetitive grind then a unique experience that ties you into the universe.

Correct. The frequency increases burnout, which in turn increases player contempt towards the system.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Askorti]

53 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think a total and complete opt out is a sensible solution. It leaves no middle ground that respects DE as a developer and the effort that they put so you can engage with the system. Similar to how the Stalker works, you only generate one by engaging in a specific behavior. 

I'm sorry, but if DE create a gameplay loop that makes people recoil in horror at the mere thought of accidentally triggering it again, they do not really deserve respect for creating said gameplay loop in the first place.

However it comes to be, I'd be very glad if there was a way to reliably avoid triggering a Lich. I did the hunt once and I have absolutely no intention to engage with this crappy gameplay loop until they change it drastically in pretty much EVERY aspect of it. That's how broken it is to me.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Askorti

[ant99999]

46 минут назад, Jarriaga сказал:

No solution is perfect. At the end, restricting the mission type that generate them and/or a cooldown are the best options.

Cooldown may not be a good option. Liches were designed to be farmable. Random weapons, danage types, ephemeras, such things. If a person wants to, it should be possible to spawn them indefinitely.

Restricting to a mission type makes them less of a threat. They should be a consequence for you killing things too much.

My solution is also by no mean perfect, it was something I came up with keeping the two points above in mind. After all, the devs should decide.

[EdinaMonsoon]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Wrong. Can't go to Hydron, Adaro or Selene anymore without risking it.

Those are nodes use for weapon leveling, Orokin Cell farming, focus farming, and for completing Riven challenges.

strange, i've been to hydron plenty for the purpose of getting a lich but nothing ever spawned

when one did spawn in an exterminate, it was very clearly waypointed and i remember someone else saying you have to kill it yourself to gain the lich

[Teljaxx]

The problem isn't so much where, or how often they spawn, so changing that won't really help all that much. The fact that you can accidentally kill them so easily is the real problem. It should never be possible to accidentally get stuck dealing with a long term, detrimental system like this. There needs to be direct player control over whether or not you create a Lich.

Like, have the Larvaling function more like a Thrall. When you "kill" it, it doesn't immediately die, it goes down. Then, if you want it to become a Lich, you can leave it alone and let it bleed out. Or if you don't want a Lich, you can Mercy it, and finish it off for good.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, Askorti said:

I'm sorry, but if DE create a gameplay loop that makes people recoil in horror at the mere thought of accidentally triggering it again, they do not really deserve respect for creating said gameplay loop in the first place.

They are allowed to make mistakes. It must be disheartening for them to put so much effort, energy and resources into content players have chosen to outright ignore in the past simply because they don't like it regardless of how well put out it may be.

3 hours ago, Askorti said:

However it comes to be, I'd be very glad if there was a way to reliably avoid triggering a Lich. I did the hunt once and I have absolutely no intention to engage with this crappy gameplay loop until they change it drastically in pretty much EVERY aspect of it. That's how broken it is to me.

Change it how? Give concrete examples that they can actually asses and measure against other proposals. Here are mine:

1- What my opening post suggested so it gives a middle ground opt in option tied to game modes that are thematically appropriate.

2- Liches can not steal requiem relics as it could make them unkillable.

3- Increase Kuva Siphon Requiem Relic drop chance to 60%, increase Kuva Flood Requiem relic drop chance to 130% (The extra 30% is a chance to get a second relic or to get it as a Radiant Requiem relic).

4- Make the Kuva Lich weapon type be based on the planet it was created.

5- Make the Kuva Lich weapon bonus be based on the Warframe used to create it. Reddit claims that's currently the case, but official confirmation would be appreciated considering the original Tridolon run was also giving specific Arcanes in set groups rather than being random, so it could be a bug,

6- Heavily decrease the number of Kuva Lich Thralls you need to kill in order to get your murmurs. 30 per murmur instead of 55 sounds reasonable for me.

7- Add a way to down your Lich so you can scare it away without you having to die.

8- Stolen loot is multiplied by 1.1-1.5 when returned depending on your Lich's rank at the time you kill it.

Those are my proposals to streamline the system. Tweaks in order to make it better. What do you propose? What is your feedback other than "It's terrible, please change"?

2 hours ago, ant99999 said:

Cooldown may not be a good option. Liches were designed to be farmable. Random weapons, danage types, ephemeras, such things. If a person wants to, it should be possible to spawn them indefinitely.

Restricting to a mission type makes them less of a threat. They should be a consequence for you killing things too much.

My solution is also by no mean perfect, it was something I came up with keeping the two points above in mind. After all, the devs should decide.

Indeed. No solution is perfect. At least restricting them to Kuva missions without a cooldown allows you to generate one right away if you so wish.

2 hours ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

strange, i've been to hydron plenty for the purpose of getting a lich but nothing ever spawned

when one did spawn in an exterminate, it was very clearly waypointed and i remember someone else saying you have to kill it yourself to gain the lich

Are you hosting? Larvings may not spawn if the host already has a Lich.

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

The problem isn't so much where, or how often they spawn, so changing that won't really help all that much. The fact that you can accidentally kill them so easily is the real problem. It should never be possible to accidentally get stuck dealing with a long term, detrimental system like this. There needs to be direct player control over whether or not you create a Lich.

Like, have the Larvaling function more like a Thrall. When you "kill" it, it doesn't immediately die, it goes down. Then, if you want it to become a Lich, you can leave it alone and let it bleed out. Or if you don't want a Lich, you can Mercy it, and finish it off for good.

That is another sensible solution. Good call!

Can a mod please move this thread to feedback? Thanks!

Edited November 3, 2019 by Jarriaga