Old Blood's Negativity myths

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

1. That's a myth only because the game already is P2W and has been since its inception. This update is weird in the way it's monetized, though. You can't buy the weapons for money, only the relics, but the relics are the easy part of the grind. I could understand the obnoxious murmur grind if it was monetized, but it's not. Which leaves me with only one conclusion to draw, that someone at DE is so hopelessly out of touch that they sincerely think this murmur farming is fun.

2. If you were to tell me it's not that grindy, you'd be objectively wrong. The numbers have been crunched and expected acquisition times calculated, and they show that the grind is disproportionately greater than anything before, largely due to the layered RNG.

3. As you youself point out, this complaint is outdated and has been addressed in a hotfix (thereby confirming its validity), so I don't see why you even included it in your post.

4. See above.

5. It's not just a question of what you're getting, it's also a question of what you're giving up. Every minute spent farming murmurs is a minute not spent earning rewards from sorties, arbies, fissures, and other content you might want to do. In short, you forgot to factor in opportunity cost.

6. Forma is meant to be something to enhance your favorite weapons and bring them to the peak of their potential, it's not supposed to be mandatory on every weapon. It was acceptable on the Paracesis because it's a special story-releated weapon, but having to invest 5 forma into a whole bunch of random grineer weapons just to get the MR out of them is absurd and a blatant attempt to sell more forma bundles (see also: myth 1).

7. This is really just myth 2 in disguise, so again, see above.

Your response to perfectly valid critique basically boils down to "lol, if you can't no-life this game, that's your own fault", a very naive and immature approach to say the least.

I don't really care much about the other back and forths but I find it very disrespectful to DE that anyone calls this game a pay to win. What exactly are you paying for to win? Are so weak at this game that you NEED to buy plat? Are you saying that a game many people call the "ultimate power fantasy" with "dumb a.i." and "overpowered warframes and weapons" is too much for you? You can't be new to the game if you have such a huge set of opinions and critiques so what's your story then?

Look, sorry to be rude but that arguement is simply too childish to let stand. Buy stuff only if you want but there are NO desperate needs to purchase in this game unless you're purposely trying to buy your way to having a collection...aka rushing for no damn reason whatsoever. 

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, Remedyheart said:

7 times though?

Yes, that would be the "very lucky" part. Though that luck is going to run out, since the more of the weapons you own, the greater a chance of getting duplicates you have. So I think you'll change your tune pretty soon, and this thread is simply a result of your short-sightedness and inability to see what's coming. Or maybe not, who knows? Maybe you'll be one of the really lucky ones who just get all the weapons with no duplicates at all. With as many players as WF has, there's bound to be a few.

2 hours ago, Remedyheart said:

And my grinding sessions? How am I so quick or so lucky there?

That would be the "no-life" part.

30 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I don't really care much about the other back and forths but I find it very disrespectful to DE that anyone calls this game a pay to win. What exactly are you paying for to win? Are so weak at this game that you NEED to buy plat? Are you saying that a game many people call the "ultimate power fantasy" with "dumb a.i." and "overpowered warframes and weapons" is too much for you? You can't be new to the game if you have such a huge set of opinions and critiques so what's your story then?

Look, sorry to be rude but that arguement is simply too childish to let stand. Buy stuff only if you want but there are NO desperate needs to purchase in this game unless you're purposely trying to buy your way to having a collection...aka rushing for no damn reason whatsoever. 

What makes the game pay-to-win? Simple, the ability to buy power. And speaking of disrespect and childishness, who are you to refer to people who buy plat with such disdain? Do you even realize that every single unit of plat in the game had to be paid for with real money by someone at some point? If these 'weak' players weren't buying plat, you wouldn't have any either, because nobody would have any to trade to you. So show some damn respect for people who actually help support the developer instead of just leeching.

Edited November 7, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Leyers_of_facade]

Lets do some calculations here... We will stick with 7 lich runs, and assuming that independent trials and equal chances

There is a total of 13^7 = 62,748,517 outcomes

Of which.... there is

8,648,640 combinations where all 7 lich runs give different weapons. Probability = 8648640/62748517 = 0.13783018967

25,945,920 combinations where you get 6 different weapons. Probability = 25,945,920/62,748,517 = 0.41349056902

21,621,600 combinations where you get 5 different weapons. Probability = 21,621,600/62,748,517 = 0.34457547419

6,006,000 combinations where you get 4 different weapons. Probability = 6,006,000/62,748,517 = 0.09571540949

516,516 combinations where you get 3 different weapons. Probability = 516,516/62,748,517 = 0.00823152521

9,828 combinations where you get 2 different weapons. Probability = 9,828/62,748,517 = 0.00015662521

13 combinations where the very very unlikely tenno got 7 copies of the same weapon. Probability = 13/62,748,517 = 2.0717 x 10^(-7)

 

Took me a while to figure out how to calculate these values, got a bit too rusty on combinatorics xD

Feel free to use the numbers I used above, and if you got different values, feel free to challenge these numbers.

 

Anyway you can see from the probability, that more than 10% of the players will have 4 or less unique kuva weapons after 7 liches, or in other words, 3 or more duplicates in just 7 liches. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Leyers_of_facade

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, that would be the "very lucky" part. Though that luck is going to run out, since the more of the weapons you own, the greater a chance of getting duplicates you have. So I think you'll change your tune pretty soon, and this thread is simply a result of your short-sightedness and inability to see what's coming. Or maybe not, who knows? Maybe you'll be one of the really lucky ones who just get all the weapons with no duplicates at all. With as many players as WF has, there's bound to be a few.

That would be the "no-life" part.

What makes the game pay-to-win? Simple, the ability to buy power. And speaking of disrespect and childishness, who are you to refer to people who buy plat with such disdain? Do you even realize that every single unit of plat in the game had to be paid for with real money by someone at some point? If these 'weak' players weren't buying plat, you wouldn't have any either, because nobody would have any to trade to you. So show some damn respect for people who actually help support the developer instead of just leeching.

So, you add all plat buyers to your arguement instead of reading exactly what I wrote. I CLEARLY said "NEED to buy plat to win", which no one NEEDS to buy plat to win. We WANT to buy plat to either obtain a larger collection faster or fashion frame...both of which are NOT "to win".  

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

So, you add all plat buyers to your arguement instead of reading exactly what I wrote. I CLEARLY said "NEED to buy plat to win", which no one NEEDS to buy plat to win. We WANT to buy plat to either obtain a larger collection faster or fashion frame...both of which are NOT "to win".  

You're omitting a very important reason a lot of players buy plat, namely to get an item they need to progress in the game without having to grind for it, e.g. potato, forma, better gun, etc. That is the definition of buying power and paying to win. Even the reasons you do mention still qualify. WF is a game with no end and no way to beat it, so amassing a collection of items and cosmetics is winning, or the closest thing to it.

[Test-995]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

you're such a nuisance to everybody you know that? if you have nothing useful to say then don't comment.

Did you read the how OP responded to my post? I don't really think "UwU" is a negative expression?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

19 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

You're omitting a very important reason a lot of players buy plat, namely to get an item they need to progress in the game without having to grind for it, e.g. potato, forma, better gun, etc. That is the definition of buying power and paying to win. Even the reasons you do mention still qualify. WF is a game with no end and no way to beat it, so amassing a collection of items and cosmetics is winning, or the closest thing to it.

No, it is not the definition of paying to win. Paying to win is offering a product that MUST BE PURCHASED that provides a significant advantage over those that did not purchase. There's not a single item in warframe that provides that. Simple as that. Forma is the most talked about but, again, that item is very easily gained without plat. 

Falsely adding an "extra" definition to pay to win is equally disrespectful.

[SordidDreams]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

No, it is not the definition of paying to win. Paying to win is offering a product that MUST BE PURCHASED that provides a significant advantage over those that did not purchase. There's not a single item in warframe that provides that. Simple as that. Forma is the most talked about but, again, that item is very easily gained without plat. 

Falsely adding an "extra" definition to pay to win is equally disrespectful.

Your idea of what pay-to-win is mistaken due to the fact that you haven't given it much thought.

[Remedyheart]

20 hours ago, Leyers_of_facade said:

Lets do some calculations here... We will stick with 7 lich runs, and assuming that independent trials and equal chances

There is a total of 13^7 = 62,748,517 outcomes

Of which.... there is

8,648,640 combinations where all 7 lich runs give different weapons. Probability = 8648640/62748517 = 0.13783018967

25,945,920 combinations where you get 6 different weapons. Probability = 25,945,920/62,748,517 = 0.41349056902

21,621,600 combinations where you get 5 different weapons. Probability = 21,621,600/62,748,517 = 0.34457547419

6,006,000 combinations where you get 4 different weapons. Probability = 6,006,000/62,748,517 = 0.09571540949

516,516 combinations where you get 3 different weapons. Probability = 516,516/62,748,517 = 0.00823152521

9,828 combinations where you get 2 different weapons. Probability = 9,828/62,748,517 = 0.00015662521

13 combinations where the very very unlikely tenno got 7 copies of the same weapon. Probability = 13/62,748,517 = 2.0717 x 10^(-7)

 

Took me a while to figure out how to calculate these values, got a bit too rusty on combinatorics xD

Feel free to use the numbers I used above, and if you got different values, feel free to challenge these numbers.

 

Anyway you can see from the probability, that more than 10% of the players will have 4 or less unique kuva weapons after 7 liches, or in other words, 3 or more duplicates in just 7 liches. 

Please go to my other post and figure out the probability of 9 different weapons! Really starting to think that this isn't luck. It's kinda scary.

[Remedyheart]

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Your idea of what pay-to-win is mistaken due to the fact that you haven't given it much thought.

Dude do you even play other games? Gacha's, shooters, timegates, level differences in MMOs. Like its a progression shortcut is all the purchases ever really are. This is mot PVP and nothing you can buy outright kills level 100s easy.

You need to work on a build leveling forma and releveling of the weapon. Point is there are shortcuts not outright instant advantages ingame to get ahead of everyone. Granted it sounds like the same thing but bro you don't even have to put that much effort into grinding the same stuff for free. Like to get the same value as any one of the packages takes a couple hours or at most half a day. That is hardly a gap worth calling pay to win.

[AmadeusProject]

Isn't a myth when precedes less than a week ago.

lots of things were terrible, we gave feeedback, now its changed. Isn't a Myth. Don't White Knight DE, pleople point bugs and things that got out of control because they care, don't donwplay on that.

You got a godly RNG, you didn't got enough resons to got frustrated, just that. Feedback is still needed and it would be a detriment to the game to prevent that.

some things changed for the better, some thing not, somethings were as pointless as doing these massive texts, but its a massive new content that would give player like me at least 2k more hours of content for each account, we need to polishment and more feedback. its too many things at once to get a grip about what exctally would bring longevity, hard work, but  more fun and less frustration.

We got too many steps to "fail" during a Lich hunt, some of them could be long , some of them just are just painful.

Farm the Relic> Get what you need from the relic> Find the larva and kill it> BlessRNG and pray to get a weapon or a percentage that you wants or everything next will be a waste of time but you have to do it in order to try another lich> Farm murmur> Discover the right order or runes> go do more missions not needing murmur for your lich spawn... maybe...> Pray to get the right combinetion or you have to do missions Again and again just to get him to spawn.

Isn't that bad, its hard work, its time invested. But when you can't farm the relic because of bugged missions, have to grind all the runes for the first time not having a way to get the relics without paying because RNG screwed you, You get a low percentage bonus and get bonus impact or something like that because you are playing the new content as Grendel or get any element other than you would like in a weapons that you weren't much exited about and don't know about the elements yet. Now you got to find the right combination of mods and kill the lich. Ok, you can trial and error over and over and get enough murmur to discover a mods that already worked, or you can farm murmur, wich takes time but isn't that bad, its quite refreshing ... for the first 20 times, but its the less painful part, you can't fail farming murmur, its just a "timegate", didn't needed to get reduced, but its okay. 

And now, the whole thing that you played hours for: the Lich fight! Its ok, the lich can be a challange for some people, but most of the time, the battle lasts less than a minute if everything done right. It could be improved,  I guess it will be improved and we will see Liches more often and better versions of them. But if you don't have a cristal ball and didn't guessed the right order to kill it: wellp, you will have to run the missions without any  motivation other than "he might spawn in the next mission"

And after that, you weapon might be bugged!

Don't downplay on people's reasons to complaim, there were plenty of and because of that, the kuva lich system is a lot better and will keep improving as long as we find out what will keep us playing and what make us don't waste the time with this whole new thing anymore.

Edited November 8, 2019 by __suko
still trying to correct some typos, sorry for that.

[SordidDreams]

15 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

a progression shortcut is all the purchases ever really are

Maybe you should try some good F2P games once in a while, like Path of Exile. All it sells is cosmetics and a bit of convenience in the form of stash tabs. Or maybe EVE Online, which requires a subscription, but you pay it with premium currency that you can either buy with money or trade for in-game. So don't tell me it can't be done. It can and has been.

15 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

Point is there are shortcuts not outright instant advantages ingame to get ahead of everyone. Granted it sounds like the same thing but bro you don't even have to put that much effort into grinding the same stuff for free. Like to get the same value as any one of the packages takes a couple hours or at most half a day. That is hardly a gap worth calling pay to win.

If that were true, nobody would be buying those things, and in turn DE wouldn't be offering them, because they'd be making no money off of them.

Edited November 8, 2019 by SordidDreams

[PookieNumnums]

Tldr nothing is true everything is permitted

*insert ac series parazon comparison here*

[PookieNumnums]

27 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Maybe you should try some good F2P games once in a while, like Path of Exile. All it sells is cosmetics and a bit of convenience in the form of stash tabs. Or maybe EVE Online, which requires a subscription, but you pay it with premium currency that you can either buy with money or trade for in-game. So don't tell me it can't be done. It can and has been.

If that were true, nobody would be buying those things, and in turn DE wouldn't be offering them, because they'd be making no money off of them.

De doesnt make money off of you buying things in the market. I dont know why people keep implying this. They make money off of you paying for plat. I would wager that the vast majority of plat spent on the requiem bundles (that have the mods not the relics) are traded plat. Because 800+ plat is way to much irl money to toss at it. 

 

I would also wager that the majority of money they do make off comes from either skins p access or plat discount.. 

Would be nice if they could share some official stats to show us where we are spending the most money, and what in turn is the most lucrative for them. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by PookieNumnums

[SordidDreams]

14 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

I would wager that the vast majority of plat spent on the requiem bundles (that have the mods not the relics) are traded plat.

And where do you think that plat comes from?

14 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Would be nice if they could share some official stats to show us where we are spending the most money, and what in turn is the most lucrative for them. 

Steve said Prime Access is "the big piece of cheese" for DE in an interview with Mogamu. That's the best we've got.

Edited November 8, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

De doesnt make money off of you buying things in the market. I dont know why people keep implying this. They make money off of you paying for plat. I would wager that the vast majority of plat spent on the requiem bundles (that have the mods not the relics) are traded plat. Because 800+ plat is way to much irl money to toss at it. 

Where do you think the traded plat comes from? Everytime plat gets spent in the store, that plat was bought by someone, from somewhere. (or won in the devstream)

[PookieNumnums]

4 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Where do you think the traded plat comes from? Everytime plat gets spent in the store, that plat was bought by someone, from somewhere. (or won in the devstream)

Again. The money is made when the plat is purchased not when you spend it. And im willing to bet most of it is spent in trading so gets filtered out, or on skins and not bundles like what we got with u26. 

 

[SordidDreams]

17 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Again. The money is made when the plat is purchased not when you spend it. And im willing to bet most of it is spent in trading so gets filtered out, or on skins and not bundles like what we got with u26.

You don't seem to understand how this works at all. Try to learn a little about supply and demand. In short, it doesn't matter that money is made when plat is purchased, spending it in the market still drive's DE's profit. When you spend plat in the market, you're decreasing the total supply of plat in the game's economy, which makes it more valuable and therefore harder to acquire by trading, which in turn increases incentive to just pay real money for it. Basically, by spending plat in the market, you're making someone else somewhere buy plat for money. You might think that's preposterous and your tiny plat expenditure wouldn't have that effect in the grand scheme of things, but it all averages out that way. If it wasn't the case, nobody would buy plat for money, everyone would just trade for it.

Edited November 8, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Remedyheart]

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

You don't seem to understand how this works at all. Try to learn a little about supply and demand. In short, it doesn't matter that money is made when plat is purchased, spending it in the market still drive's DE's profit. When you spend plat in the market, you're decreasing the total supply of plat in the game's economy, which makes it more valuable and therefore harder to acquire by trading, which in turn increases incentive to just pay real money for it. Basically, by spending plat in the market, you're making someone else somewhere buy plat for money. You might think that's preposterous and your tiny plat expenditure wouldn't have that effect in the grand scheme of things, but it all averages out that way. If it wasn't the case, nobody would buy plat for money, everyone would just trade for it.

You need to sit down and tackle the newb obstacles man. We see you now.

[Leyers_of_facade]

6 hours ago, Remedyheart said:

Please go to my other post and figure out the probability of 9 different weapons! Really starting to think that this isn't luck. It's kinda scary.

That will take quite a while... The method I did my calculation isn't exactly easy to code into an actual algorithm to compute (ie, I can't let my computer do all the calculation for me, instead I have to do the bulk of it by hand, while it handles the easiest part)   9 liches would be close to the limit of what I can compute in a reasonable amount of time, but I can do it later on when I have time

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2019-11-08 at 1:20 PM, SordidDreams said:

You don't seem to understand how this works at all. Try to learn a little about supply and demand. In short, it doesn't matter that money is made when plat is purchased, spending it in the market still drive's DE's profit. When you spend plat in the market, you're decreasing the total supply of plat in the game's economy, which makes it more valuable and therefore harder to acquire by trading, which in turn increases incentive to just pay real money for it. Basically, by spending plat in the market, you're making someone else somewhere buy plat for money. You might think that's preposterous and your tiny plat expenditure wouldn't have that effect in the grand scheme of things, but it all averages out that way. If it wasn't the case, nobody would buy plat for money, everyone would just trade for it.

Sorry but this is juvenile. Your entire argument is based on DE just HAVING a purchasable economy. That's a debate for the trophy kids.

I also perfectly understand what pay-to-win is. The problem is, like I said earlier, you are adding definitions to what it means in order to justify your statement. There are no pay to win mechanics in warframe. Pay to win must be, and only must be, the additional out of pocket cost for an item not offered in game except for the market that provides an advantage over most or all in game items not in the market. Which weapon, warframe or mod fits that description? 

 

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Your entire argument is based on DE just HAVING a purchasable economy. That's a debate for the trophy kids.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I also perfectly understand what pay-to-win is.

Clearly not. Which is especially sad because I told you.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Oreades]

OK I I'm breaking this into three parts to cover the same general flow of the OP but I'm gonna keep it super short and sweet cause I'm tired of trying to be wordie. 

 

Part 1)

The start of that pretty much read to me as 

"Scissors are fine" - Rock 

It's nice that you got stupid great RNG and didn't have a single repeating Kuva weapon in your first 7 Liches. The fact that you didn't encounter it doesn't make it "not a problem". Maybe wait to talk about it until after you've gotten your 7th Kuva Brakk in a row cause I think if that had been the case you'd be singing a very VERY different tune. 

 

Part 2) 

While I don't outright disagree with everything in that section....

Dismissing legitimate concerns as "myths" and then essentially saying "that really isn't a problem" doesn't make them not a problem. 

 

Part 3) 

Thos topics you decided to skip because they where..... subjective..... the bulk of your hand waving myth dismissal was on topics that are totally subjective. So I find it quite amusing that you would shy away from topics that are just as subjective.