Toxic lich hunter bullies are spreading "badwill", ban them.

[Aldain]

No matter how much you folks try to bring morality or "the needs of the many" into this issue it won't change the fact that people aren't happy with it.

DE's system is the sole problem, not the players on either side of the fence. No amount of yelling, threatening or shaming people will make them like the forced death and forced level because at an inherent level it isn't fun to them.

You cannot force people to like a system in a video game if it isn't fun to them, no matter how little of an issue you think the problem is no one person can speak for everyone's experience.

[Remedyheart]

2 hours ago, Sintag said:

Ah, right.  Forgot you're no longer flying completely and utterly blind.  Trying to keep all this is a bit nuts.

You can fail Requiem 1 twice across three mods.  Two attempts.
You can then fail Requiem 2 once.
 

So it's three failed attempts if you know the entire sequence, as opposed to forty-four if you don't.  You see why I say 'don't blindly stab your Lich', though?  If you're patient, you eliminate forty-one attempts.  Use your stabs to eliminate the guesswork from Lich hunting, instead of throwing your life away to sate the guy who charged into pubs.

That doesn't save time. 

For example say you are close to unlocking your first requim. Guessing the right relic in the first slot is a massive time saver and the progress made currently for the unlocked slot transitions over to the next word to unlock. This is just one scenario.

Second scenario is when you have already revealed your first word. The second word is now a 1 out of 7. Even if you fail the next stab attempt it becomes a 1 out of 6. By then, I myself, usually have unlocked the 2nd word so this confirms the position of the first and second slots.

See if I keep failing on the first slot but have unlocked one word, I now have a 50/50 chance to guess the right position of that mod bt process of elimination. If I have two mods revealed I should have already confirmed the placement of the first slot with one of the two revealed mods and then have determined if any of the two fit on the second slot.

This is all while I'm farming for the third slot. And this becomes irrellevant if I happen to get lucky and uncover a relic early on. Hell I am usually done guessing the sequence before I finish my third mod reveal.

So you saving your lich and not taking the chance nor time to guess early on becomes your weakpoint. Not a strengh or a safety net. And everyone is going to die anyways due to these difficulty levels.

Even when you're not prepared when would you be then? Already on Lich 20 for me. Where you at solo guy?

[Remedyheart]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

No matter how much you folks try to bring morality or "the needs of the many" into this issue it won't change the fact that people aren't happy with it.

DE's system is the sole problem, not the players on either side of the fence. No amount of yelling, threatening or shaming people will make them like the forced death and forced level because at an inherent level it isn't fun to them.

You cannot force people to like a system in a video game if it isn't fun to them, no matter how little of an issue you think the problem is no one person can speak for everyone's experience.

I am sorry that teamwork becomes an issue. When us as higher MR experienced players should be more helpful and considerate in helping other players.

Seriously though. Why is teamwork and common curtesy suddenly a bad habit now? MMO. Did we forget this is an MMO?

[Aldain]

Just now, Remedyheart said:

I am sorry that teamwork becomes an issue. When us as higher MR experienced players should be more helpful and considerate in helping other players.

Seriously though. Why is teamwork and common curtesy suddenly a bad habit now? MMO. Did we forget this is an MMO?

You're dancing around the issue that people don't find the system enjoyable. The players that don't enjoy suiciding into their Lich won't enjoy it no matter how much you preach teamwork and togetherness.

Imagine if the only way to complete a mission was to have one player fail it so the other 3 can succeed. That would be wrong and not fun for that one person. This circumstance isn't the case, but one person suffering so 3 others can be happy is just as bad as 3 people suffering so one can be.

This isn't morality, this isn't for "the greater good" or for efficiency, it is a pointless punishment that caused a portion of the playerbase to not want to interact with the system at all.

The system caused this split, not the players. DE created a system that caused players to separate themselves on this line, any design choice that forces players apart rather than together and causes massive arguments like this thread is a failure in game design.

And I am getting tired of having to repeat something that should be painfully simple to understand.

[Tinklzs]

On 2019-11-15 at 11:36 AM, TheMightyBaloon said:

I find it funny that you consider this bullying and toxicity. Yes some people tend to get out of line but someone that ignores their lich ruins the experience of others. Which is basically griefing, you are annoying other players and ruining their experience by not vanishing your own lich. 

I've had this happen multiple times while trying to test rune combinations and while I can solo liches without any issue it is much faster when 3 other players are whacking on a lich. I also can avoid the insta-death BS that happens at times.

So please people, stab/vanquish your liches, it also progresses your murmur count. Don't ruin the experience of others by ignore your lich.

So instead of fixing the issue, that DE never should've had in the first place - you want to punish players and hold them responsible?

DE created the problem, then acted like they alleviated the problem, when they just made it worse. Not only that, they shown that instead of trying to fix the problem, they're willing to not only ignore it, but act like it isn't an issue.

Edit :Same thing with OP - why ban players when DE has made that choice, there are dozens of ideas on these forums to make Kuva Lich farming better for all involved. If you don't like how the system is you have two choices, play solo or group up with likeminded players, aka premade group. Otherwise, voice your concerns and dissatisfaction (like everyone else) on the forums and tell DE that they crossed a line they can easily fix.   Because if you think it's a problem now, wait until Empyrean rolls around.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Tinklzs

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

Only that I did. I layed out the pros and the cons for both situations, and both on paper and on practice confronting the lich yields better results.

You laid them out, yes, but you misjudged their value. The cons outweigh the pros for all but the most well-geared players.

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

Never mind the ill demeanor people cause when they choose to ignore their lich and block their squad mates spawns.

I called out one guy for that kind of abuser logic already, I have no problem calling you out too. The only people to blame for "ill demeanor" are those who display it. Your logic is the logic of an abuser saying "look what you made me do" after beating up their spouse. Pure victim blaming, vile and disgusting. GTFO with that.

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

if you can't deal with lvl 5 lich or 80-100 enemies with a squad, you have to "git gud" brother. Don't blame the game, blame yourself

This is also something I and others have explained already. The lich system becomes available as soon as you arrive on Sedna, when you're used to doing level 30-ish content. The easiest lich content is level 50, four times harder than that. If you foolishly give in to the demands of selfish people and stab your lich, the difficulty gradually increases up to level 100, fifty times harder than level 30. The game never gives any indication of just how hard the content you're jumping into is, and once you're in there's no way to back out of it again, you have to push through. The only people who propose "git gud" as a solution to that have either no brain or no empathy (the latter is consistent with the victim-blaming abuser logic you displayed above, btw). Don't blame the game? No, do blame the game. Blame nothing other than the game, in fact. And don't give in to selfish people's demands that you screw yourself over for their very minor benefit.

Edited November 17, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Rakosta_Kai]

22 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Only that I did. I layed out the pros and the cons for both situations, and both on paper and on practice confronting the lich yields better results.

Never mind the ill demeanor people cause when they choose to ignore their lich and block their squad mates spawns. So there is also a morality aspect to it, "do the right thing."

And honestly, if you can't deal with lvl 5 lich or 80-100 enemies with a squad, you have to "git gud" brother. Don't blame the game, blame yourself.

But you really didn't...

• You don't mention that automatically stabbing your lich reduces the thralls it will generate were it active.
• You don't highlight that the attempt also lowers the Lich's rage meter, which reduces the number of thralls the player will see in subsequent missions until it's built back up ( at least 3 missions).
• Those 10 Murmurs earned convenience people like you but actually costs the player, themselves,  closer to 30 murmurs over the timeframe of those 3 - 4 missions building rage back up.

What you did was highlight what you think the pros and cons for you are...Funnily enough, those aren't correct either tbh.

No, Automatically stabbing your lich isn't improving anyone's murmur chances with new liches—as the Lich never typically gets the chance to spawn thralls given how short group murmur hunts tend to be and how hasty players are. The prevailing opinion is counter-intuitive if you are hunting murmurs.

The only thing attempting the Lich does is create the possibility that another player's lich might spawn and that player will have help downing it. This, by your logic, is something players shouldn't need to begin with.

Confronting your lich makes sense in these scenarios...

• If the player thinks it will complete the information for the 1st Requiem Mod.  This is so that rage can be built during the second to speed accrual for the third hint.
• If the player is out of viable missions on the current planet as the attempt opens up another planet.
• To increase the chance that another player's Lich will spawn.
• The player is in a long group mission and their Lich has stopped spawning Thralls... Even then I would ask the other players what their Lich's rage is like first as doing so may be needless.

Players choosing not to attempt their Lich is actually helping you clear yours faster by either preserving or building your Lich's rage meter allowing you to get more murmurs in subsequent missions.

Those are the actual facts... Why don't your "pro's and con's" account for them?

[MPonder]

Just a reminder that dying in a mission doesn't means you fail it. I know warframe is a easy game, and 99,99999999% play Inaros on Lv 20+ enemies because Lv 20+ are too scary and probably forgot this. 

Reading the stuffs here, reminded me of the Arbitration thread guy that I suggested him to go alone and test the durability of his warframes' builds, he would lose nothing from dying, you can even re-enter the mission if you die solo before the first reward. But no, he was like if he would get some form of trauma if the die or see the "Failed" in the screen. Is this an issue with some people in the community?

Most economic way for me to do profit is by dying with Mirage, everytime I'm out of energy, I just die. 4-5 mins runs, 0 energy and health pads used.

[MPonder]

18 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

• You don't highlight that the attempt also lowers the Lich's rage meter, which reduces the number of thralls the player will see in subsequent missions until it's built back up ( at least 3 missions).

Thralls number per missions doesn't seems to change when the "anger" bar is low and when is high. Gonna do some tests later.

19 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

• You don't mention that automatically stabbing your lich reduces the thralls it will generate were it active.

This one I tested more than one time, I let the lich live for a long time, there was no Thrall been generated, there is a initial generation, but there was it for me.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Remedyheart said:

MMO. Did we forget this is an MMO?

That might be you're problem right there.  WarFrame doesn't really fit that game category much if at all.  While some try to place it as a Co-op Only shooter, the real truth is that WF is a single player experience game with co-op elements.  Not once do you ever really need a team to do anything in this game.  Please don't say Raids as those are no longer in the game.  

Even while people may play in groups, they still behave as if they are playing solo.  This really hasn't changed since I first started playing about 4 years ago.  

[Remedyheart]

24 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But you really didn't...

• You don't mention that automatically stabbing your lich reduces the thralls it will generate were it active.
• You don't highlight that the attempt also lowers the Lich's rage meter, which reduces the number of thralls the player will see in subsequent missions until it's built back up ( at least 3 missions).
• Those 10 Murmurs earned convenience people like you but actually costs the player, themselves,  closer to 30 murmurs over the timeframe of those 3 - 4 missions building rage back up.

What you did was highlight what you think the pros and cons for you are...Funnily enough, those aren't correct either tbh.

No, Automatically stabbing your lich isn't improving anyone's murmur chances with new liches—as the Lich never typically gets the chance to spawn thralls given how short group murmur hunts tend to be and how hasty players are. The prevailing opinion is counter-intuitive if you are hunting murmurs.

The only thing attempting the Lich does is create the possibility that another player's lich might spawn and that player will have help downing it. This, by your logic, is something players shouldn't need to begin with.

Confronting your lich makes sense in these scenarios...

• If the player thinks it will complete the information for the 1st Requiem Mod.  This is so that rage can be built during the second to speed accrual for the third hint.
• If the player is out of viable missions on the current planet as the attempt opens up another planet.
• To increase the chance that another player's Lich will spawn.
• The player is in a long group mission and their Lich has stopped spawning Thralls... Even then I would ask the other players what their Lich's rage is like first as doing so may be needless.

Players choosing not to attempt their Lich is actually helping you clear yours faster by either preserving or building your Lich's rage meter allowing you to get more murmurs in subsequent missions.

Those are the actual facts... Why don't your "pro's and con's" account for them?

Okay. Someone's not listening. We want to stab it for the positives.

Where is this preservation thing coming from when I need to figure out a process of elimination here. Better to do it early rather than wasting your time in 4 to 5 extra missions to figure out the right sequence. 

The biggiest issue for req mods is the murmur farm. Not the requence. Knock out the bigger issue which is murmurs not sequence of mods.

[-Jorsch-]

4 hours ago, Graavarg said:

No, not at all. There are no "must stab lich"-rules for PUG/random missions. That is a completely made-up rule by lich farmers, in order so they themselves can advance faster. But there is absolutely nothing forcing lich farmers to go into public missions, and if they do they should show some respect and accept that random players in that mission might have other goals than they have.

It really is quite simple. How on earth can you come to the conclusion that you an join a mission with random players and have the right to force them to play a certain way? That is simply nuts.

 

This is literally the one of the most hypocritical statements I have ever read. You are literally doing the exact same thing to the other 3 people trying to kill their liches. You've been non-stop complaining with the argument "It's mah lich, and i'm not gonna kill it, so if you don't like it shut up or leave" You're going a pug match and trying to dictate that noones going to have a chance at their lich because you'd rather be a toxic player. You're actively blocking 3 other players progress so you can take the holier than though approach of , "How dare you ask me to kill my lich, You're harassing me.", No they're not, they're trying to actively participate in a new system whereas you are actively blocking their progress. From my perspective you are the toxic player here, and the one deserving of a ban.

I don't advocate people threatening or harassing other players, if players do so, use the report feature ingame. Meanwhile, I'll use the report feature to report those players actively harassing others by refusing to kill their lich, holding the rest of the group's lich hostage.

[Remedyheart]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

That might be you're problem right there.  WarFrame doesn't really fit that game category much if at all.  While some try to place it as a Co-op Only shooter, the real truth is that WF is a single player experience game with co-op elements.  Not once do you ever really need a team to do anything in this game.  Please don't say Raids as those are no longer in the game.  

Even while people may play in groups, they still behave as if they are playing solo.  This really hasn't changed since I first started playing about 4 years ago.  

Okay forgrt the tag. Are you forgetting that I play the game too?

Come on now teammate. We are potential teammates here and you gonna do that to me? 

Help a brother out.

[MirageKnight]

57 minutes ago, Aldain said:

And I am getting tired of having to repeat something that should be painfully simple to understand.

Some folks here don't WANT to understand. They just want to be right and justified about how they see the world treat others - which is arguably extremely poorly.

We're talking about people that say "Stop inconveniencing us and DIE already! We've got stuff we want to get our hands on! If you don't, you're selfish!"

That's not hyperbole, that's exactly what their self-serving "arguments" boil down to.

You dare to call players that refuse to kill their liches because they don't want to wind up fighting a tougher enemy because of a S#&$ty game mechanic selfish?

You're a bunch of disgusting hypocrites.

[Remedyheart]

34 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

You laid them out, yes, but you misjudged their value. The cons outweigh the pros for all but the most well-geared players.

I called out one guy for that kind of abuser logic already, I have no problem calling you out too. The only people to blame for "ill demeanor" are those who display it. Your logic is the logic of an abuser saying "look what you made me do" after beating up their spouse. Pure victim blaming, vile and disgusting. GTFO with that.

This is also something I and others have explained already. The lich system becomes available as soon as you arrive on Sedna, when you're used to doing level 30-ish content. The easiest lich content is level 50, four times harder than that. If you foolishly give in to the demands of selfish people and stab your lich, the difficulty gradually increases up to level 100, fifty times harder than level 30. The game never gives any indication of just how hard the content you're jumping into is, and once you're in there's no way to back out of it again, you have to push through. The only people who propose "git gud" as a solution to that have either no brain or no empathy (the latter is consistent with the victim-blaming abuser logic you displayed above, btw). Don't blame the game? No, do blame the game. Blame nothing other than the game, in fact. And don't give in to selfish people's demands that you screw yourself over for their very minor benefit.

You make no sense and every thread we've been in more people agreed with me on stabbing rather than you on no stabbing.

 

[MirageKnight]

2 minutes ago, -Jorsch- said:

Meanwhile, I'll use the report feature to report those players actively harassing others by refusing to kill their lich, holding the rest of the group's lich hostage.

And I'll be more than happy to report players like you for bullying and abusive behavior.

[Remedyheart]

1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

Some folks here don't WANT to understand. They just want to be right and justified about how they see the world treat others - which is arguably extremely poorly.

We're talking about people that say "Stop inconveniencing us and DIE already! We've got stuff we want to get our hands on! If you don't, you're selfish!"

That's not hyperbole, that's exactly what their self-serving "arguments" boil down to.

You dare to call players that refuse to kill their liches because they don't want to wind up fighting a tougher enemy because of a S#&$ty game mechanic selfish?

You're a bunch of disgusting hypocrites.

You realize it is suppose to require a team nornally. Sure you got some hardcore players who solo their lich. Me being one. Besides that have you ever though about why the lichs were created with a one shot mechnic?

And mind you no matter what the lich's level is they are still able to one shot most frames via grabs, tosses, throws.

So in a sense you're gonna get tossed anyways eventually. Take advantage of their strength and make so that death isn't just a big waste of your time.

Ask for help if you're having trouble with a Lich. Honestly when did asking the community for assistance become a bad habit?

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, Remedyheart said:

Okay forgrt the tag. Are you forgetting that I play the game too?

Come on now teammate. We are potential teammates here and you gonna do that to me? 

Help a brother out.

I understand what you're saying.  Heck times I would group, I would try to work as a teammate would, but rarely did the others allow that to happen.  So I would go back to solo play.  Now i only group up with a certain streamer and her viewers during streams.  The later being the most I've experienced true teamwork period.  

The later is also where I've been seeing all of the issues with the Kuva Lich system.  

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

Some folks here don't WANT to understand. They just want to be right and justified about how they see the world treat others - which is arguably extremely poorly.

We're talking about people that say "Stop inconveniencing us and DIE already! We've got stuff we want to get our hands on! If you don't, you're selfish!"

That's not hyperbole, that's exactly what their self-serving "arguments" boil down to.

You dare to call players that refuse to kill their liches because they don't want to wind up fighting a tougher enemy because of a S#&$ty game mechanic selfish?

You're a bunch of disgusting hypocrites.

Careful Mirage, don't give in to anger.

As many have said, this isn't something to blame on players, even the ones that are lacking the empathy to understand others, the problem is in the system, it is best to stick to that subject to make sure the message doesn't get lost amidst the vitriol.

Adding to the aggression will only weaken the argument that the system is as fault not the players.

[-Jorsch-]

3 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

And I'll be more than happy to report players like you for bullying and abusive behavior.

I never said I was abusive or bullied other players here mate. In my own post i advocated against this behavior. I'll kindly ask others "Can you please kill your lich". When they don't, I'll ask them why. I never said I scream/threaten/bully them, nice try though.

Edited November 17, 2019 by -Jorsch-

[Remedyheart]

1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

And I'll be more than happy to report players like you for bullying and abusive behavior.

Yeah. Yet I'm here asking for your help only and not reporting you but sure. Feel free to do so. I'll still be here dying to your lich asking for help and waiting for my lich to spawn so that way we can both move forward.

And its one mission. Why can you not tolerate me for one mission?

Are you that willing to dictate the other players left in the team?

[zoffmode]

2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

And I'll be more than happy to report players like you for bullying and abusive behavior.

Reporting is not bullying though. 

[Remedyheart]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

I understand what you're saying.  Heck times I would group, I would try to work as a teammate would, but rarely did the others allow that to happen.  So I would go back to solo play.  Now i only group up with a certain streamer and her viewers during streams.  The later being the most I've experienced true teamwork period.  

The later is also where I've been seeing all of the issues with the Kuva Lich system.  

I'm sorry that you had a run of bad players. If I could help you out I would do so. This is the kind of player I'd give my time for. Just a bit of consideration goes a long way.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Remedyheart said:

I'm sorry that you had a run of bad players

4 years a "run of bad".  LOL  I like this guy.  

[Raqiya]

I understand both sides but I just don't think its right to go public and do something which is possibly detrimental to the three other players.