archwing changes is back to arcade again

[Sibernetika]

I'm flying here on the plains when I suddenly realise I can't do barrel rolls anymore, I can't fly it like a jet fighter anymore, and the experimental option is removed from forcing it on again... is this a bug, overall nerf to all the archwings, or was the archwing update just a half bake with the next part coming soon?

[Limbo_Darkness]

The new update is not a bug unfortunately. DE has been radio silent and believes it to be an overall buff. Unless they actually listen to feedback, this is the full thing for now. It's literally the second worst rework this year after melee.

[Oreades]

So are you saying they finally removed experimental mode or that they're just not cramming it down everyone throats by default?

[Sibernetika]

experimental mode is gone from the options and you don't have the "freeflight" anymore, archwing feels like its back on rails again

[GruntBlender]

That's the intended rework you're feeling. It's an overall improvement but some people are really hating it. Tastes differ, it sucks that you don't like it, but it'll probably stay like this or have minor tweaks at most.

[Sibernetika]

They did this last time when they disabled experimental mode for everyone, and they got a huge backlash as well for it back then so they re-enabled the free form flight.. This is not an improvement it feels again like that flash game they had when they were hyping archwing

[trndr]

15 hours ago, Oreades said:

So are you saying they finally removed experimental mode or that they're just not cramming it down everyone throats by default?

They killed it this time, no option no nothing.

Now we are forced to crash into walls and have 2 useless keys, just because some people don't have the ability to think in 3 dimensions.

The worst part is they didn't even bother to mention they killed it in the patch notes. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by trndr

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, trndr said:

They killed it this time, no option no nothing.

Now we are forced to crash into walls and have 2 useless keys, just because some people don't have the ability to think in 3 dimensions.

Eh I'm strangely OK with that, the bulk of my advice for people who hated AW was to heccin turn off experimental mode (which if memory serves was needlessly enabled by default) not everyone wants to deal with a HOTOS for to deal with a single mission type.

And while I will not argue that it is stupid that DE has failed over the years to correct the issue they have worked into Archwing with regards to Sprint Toggle forcing forward movement without any player input, hell I've been pretty harsh on them about exactly that. As well as rendering the S key all but useless because it doesn't drop you out of sprint toggled "Gotta Go Forward!".. I can just as easily argue that just because someone wants to live the "realistic" space dream that there is no up or down, that we should all be forced to "LOL ur upside down" every time we want to turn left or right.

My guess is that now that they are actually pushing Archwing as a more standard game mode that they decided that they needed to stop supporting two seperate Archwing flight modes because it represented too much development time to maintain them both. Which would have resulted in inevitably having one of them left in the dust on regularity not to mention having to design content with both modes in mind. 

Now if you do not like the continually forced forward momentum, then you might want to hammer into DEs head that the issue is how they handled Sprint Toggle and that they need to rework how Sprint Toggle interacts with the current Archwing control scheme. Because it has been an issue with Sprint Toggle since they added PoE to the game and they moved that nonsense from Atmospheric flight into every iteration of AW with their last change. With the possible exception of Sharkwing? I haven't actually checked that but lets be honest no one cares about Oatmealwing 😛

[trndr]

21 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I can just as easily argue that just because someone wants to live the "realistic" space dream that there is no up or down, that we should all be forced to "LOL ur upside down" every time we want to turn left or right.

The thing is, turning radius is larger without momentum and forced down. 

In addition it's impossible to track targets going over and under you. 

Experimental flight was default off, except in plains where it was on without toggle.

And let's be honest, since JV got killed for the last time, noone has used their AW except when forced in shark wing or to speed up movement in plains/orb. 

[Althaline]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Eh I'm strangely OK with that, the bulk of my advice for people who hated AW was to heccin turn off experimental mode (which if memory serves was needlessly enabled by default) not everyone wants to deal with a HOTOS for to deal with a single mission type.

That's odd, my advice to Archwing newbies was almost always "turn on Experimental, it vastly improves the experience". I think Experimental was briefly the default, but people whinged that "Muh rotation" and so it got sent to the deep darkness of the options menu. Not sure what a HOTOS is. My belief is still that if we're going to move in three dimensional free space, I want to do it properly, and that means 6DOF.

[Sibernetika]

I honestly hate that it got removed, so it's back to only use archwing when forced otherwise I have alternative options now to traverse orb and plains void dashing now instead of archwing

[(NSW)draugath]

I would partially agree with the sentiment that experimental flight makes archwing better.  It definitely improves the controls and experience on the open world and during open space Grineer missions.  However, I found that it makes Corpus missions much more difficult because it drifts far more, which can make navigating tight corridors a chore, which is already bad enough with the horrible directional forces being applied against you.  I can't fly straight when sprinting, and have to constantly apply some counter movement to keep in a straight line.  Granted, being on Switch I can't yet comment on the new changes.

[Sibernetika]

okay so on stream feeling like flying a jet fighter is gone

[lukaself]

In today's stream they said the current flight model is not final and that they're actively trying to make a unified flight model while removing the broken ones completely.

All I want is the ability to fly 6dof back. Being stuck on a pivot feels unintuitive in space and seems completely absurd to me gameplay-wise when even the enemies can do it and shoot you in angles you can't reach without having to clumsily navigate around the pivot. Seriously 180° of vertical movement feels seriously constricted and not at all like the freedom of flying.

What's even the point of adding flying in a video game actually to have constraints such as these in the final version? What's the point of going to space if it's gonna feel the same as staying on the ground? I'm frustrated by this change because it seems like an attempt to shoehorn console technical limitations (lack of buttons, especially) onto the PC users.

Edited December 6, 2019 by lukaself

[Staticor]

Nerf whatever you want just please bring back experimental flight!!  

[lukaself]

As an added note, I believe not having 6DOf movement in space is something that may come to bite the devteam back in the ass when the creative team will realize they'll have to build the space levels according to a fixed orientation which will severely hamper the future artistic possibilities. This is not at all like the "no compromise" experience the devteam got me used to all these years and which lead to Warframe's universal recognition and success.

Again, what's the point to even go to space, if creatively and gameplay-wise, it feels, looks and plays the same as staying on the ground?

I mean, you can fly but can't do loops? Epic space battle with constrained movement feels like sand in my peanut butter toast.

Edited December 6, 2019 by lukaself

[Tenno76856]

Has anyone asked them during devstreams about this?

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, lukaself said:

As an added note, I believe not having 6DOf movement in space is something that may come to bite the devteam back in the ass when the creative team will realize they'll have to build the space levels according to a fixed orientation which will severely hamper the future artistic possibilities. This is not at all like the "no compromise" experience the devteam got me used to all these years and which lead to Warframe's universal recognition and success.

Quite the opposite - having to account for 6DOF tends to produce bizarre, unintuitive, confusing locations. It's why Descent games turned off so many players. With large industrial locations, no clear "up" and a map that's more confusing than helpful, those games are an utter nightmare to navigate even more so than early 90s FPS games were. The whole reason 6DOF is being taken away is because it's confusing and difficult to use for the vast majority of people and because that streamlines environment design. Corpus Obelisk tilesets seem like they were originally designed with a nod towards Descent, and have consequently become one of this game's worst, most hated tilesets. Doubly so when you put players in control of excessively fast Archwings which tend to drift around corners and stagger when impacting walls, then put in damage-dealing traps and race timers for good measure. Rebel Assault this is not.

I'm not opposed to HAVING Experimental Controls as an option, but the simple fact of the matter is that can't be default. Flight Sim games are a niche genre which most people can't handle, especially when set inside close quarters. As such, expect maps to still be designed with a discrete up-and-down.

[NeoRetro10K]

15 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Quite the opposite - having to account for 6DOF tends to produce bizarre, unintuitive, confusing locations. It's why Descent games turned off so many players. With large industrial locations, no clear "up" and a map that's more confusing than helpful, those games are an utter nightmare to navigate even more so than early 90s FPS games were. The whole reason 6DOF is being taken away is because it's confusing and difficult to use for the vast majority of people and because that streamlines environment design. Corpus Obelisk tilesets seem like they were originally designed with a nod towards Descent, and have consequently become one of this game's worst, most hated tilesets. Doubly so when you put players in control of excessively fast Archwings which tend to drift around corners and stagger when impacting walls, then put in damage-dealing traps and race timers for good measure. Rebel Assault this is not.

I'm not opposed to HAVING Experimental Controls as an option, but the simple fact of the matter is that can't be default. Flight Sim games are a niche genre which most people can't handle, especially when set inside close quarters. As such, expect maps to still be designed with a discrete up-and-down.

And it wasn't the default. It was completely unnecessary to remove the OPTION. The fact remains that people who wish to be able to intuitively track the path of an enemy above or below them can no longer do so.

[Steel_Rook]

2 minutes ago, NeoRetro10K said:

And it wasn't the default. It was completely unnecessary to remove the OPTION. The fact remains that people who wish to be able to intuitively track the path of an enemy above or below them can no longer do so.

It was in Free Roam maps, where the Experimental Controls setting simply didn't apply. As I said - I've no issue with keeping it. Rather, I'm trying to set realistic expectations for people. Neither the Railjack nor Archwings are fighter aircraft gameplay and you're doing yourself a disservice expecting them to be.

[Caidezes]

People always make angry threads about this, but the reality is that most players likely never even think about the flight system. It's only the folks that are really into space sims that complain when DE makes changes to it. For everyone else the new system is probably an improvement.

Personally, I didn't care much for the old flight controls or physics. But I don't use the archwings enough to really take notice of any changes. I just Blink from place to place.

[trndr]

13 hours ago, NigglesAU said:

Has anyone asked them during devstreams about this?

Thi was asked, Steve said it won't come back, which is kinda hilarious as this was right after 1 hour of railjack where the actual railjack has roll.

So big ship can maneuver, small wing can't.

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Neither the Railjack nor Archwings are fighter aircraft gameplay and you're doing yourself a disservice expecting them to be.

If roll is what defines fighter aircraft, then one of them is, but it's beyond dog egg logic. 

[lukaself]

Ok, It's even worse than I initially thought and I think I'll need to develop further:

 

Just did a mission in Uranus Caelus today because a friend needed Tellurium. On the one hand the inertia is a matter of preference, either you like it or you don't. On the other hand, not only the gameplay and level is clearly designed with 6DOF in mind, navigating it has simply become awkward because nothing is made with a fixed orientation, which is relevant because it's designed very closely to the maps we saw in the Empyrean demo. Just try navigating around an asteroid upwards or downwards and you'll understand why. At some point your archwing will run out of pitch controls because it's suddenly locked at 180° but you still haven't finished your maneuver. And since you're in space there are no clue as to how much pitch you have left or in which orientation you are to begin with, you will just be blocked by an arbitrary limitation. One workaround would be to have an artificial horizon to know how far pitched your archwing is, however do I really have point out how absurd if would be to be forced to keep track of your horizon in space?

For this reason 6DOF is not only the most logical method of control in space, it's also the only one that makes sense. It's not a matter of having unrealistic expectations as it's geometrically demonstrable because space flight is not absolute, it's relative to what's around you: if you're not starting from exactly either one of the extreme limits of your ability to pitch, you WILL need more than 180° of freedom of movement to go around  large obstacles unless you consciously forego an axis of movement and only ever go left or right. What's the point to even have space flight in these conditions? And as other posters have noted, not only enemies can do it, but also your own railjack... but somehow not the Archwing, the lightest, supposedly most maneuverable flying object there is in the whole solar system. What worries me the worst is the fact that the level designers may be currently creating Railjack map tiles based on this fixed orientation limitation and that, friends, will make roaming space mind numbingly boring really fast.

Some people may have issues navigating a 6DOF environment, and I can respect that. Implement either a key to reset your orientation at will or if gamepad controls have become this much a concern to the development team now, a setting for auto-roll centering to not clutter it. Do not break the legs of all your players because one of them has a limp though.

Before any rando comes out to say I don't know what I'm talking about, I have hundreds of hours on archwing missions alone, have all the weapons and frames maxed and formaed several times. I suspect people advocating for 180° locks on Archwing (which doesn't even fix the issue of people having trouble finding their bearings in space) are actually not regular users and maybe even the ones who wanted it removed in the first place.

Edited December 8, 2019 by lukaself

[Uthael]

 

  

From another topic:

On 2019-11-27 at 7:54 AM, Uthael said:

(...) Give me a reason NOT to hold Sprint in AW (buff it's base speed). Holding Sprint should be used only to cross larger distances or when racing against time.

For greater speed control, nerf the acceleration and brakes a bit. Many of us play on keyboards which only have "full throttle" and "stop". No analog stick.(...)

On 2019-11-25 at 1:38 PM, Uthael said:

Please add:
Checkbox toggle "Complex Archwing controls".
(Enables the controls for all of: pitch, roll, yaw, lift, strafe and thrust, + and - for each :D)

Another one, greyed out beneath that: "Lock pitch and yaw to your aim direction"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 2019-11-27 at 9:46 AM, GruntBlender said:

More mods. The flight speed and boost speed should be unlinked, like with K-Drives. Then have 3 types of mod instead of only Hyperion Thrusters.

• + Speed: Increases WASD speed only
• + Boost: Increases boost/afterburner speed, so we can traverse distances faster without affecting maneuvering
• - Speed + Boost: A corrupted mod that allows us to boost faster but normal flight is slower

With those 3, we'd be able to tune the speeds of our Archwings to whatever we like. Hecking K-Drives had more mobility mods on release than Archwing after 5 years.

On 2019-11-27 at 10:27 AM, Uthael said:

@GruntBlender Very true! And a good idea. In the following months, they should monitor the usage statistics of those mods and adjust the base stats accordingly. And make them common mods like Vitality.

The end result should be:
- If you like your AW superfast, you'll have all of them installed.
- If your speed is too much to control, just unslot a mod or put a half-upgraded one in.
- If everyone who owns a mod has it installed, it means the base stats need a buff. Modding should be "customizing to your liking", not "making up for the design flaws".

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Uthael

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-12-05 at 1:17 PM, Sibernetika said:

the archwing update just a half bake with the next part coming soon?

^this

They said on the devstream they're currently testing 3 or 4 different setups and will release a finalized system with Empyrean. And that it will be the only one, so no more "experimental" option in the settings.