Devstream touching on the kuva lich killing us

[DrakeWurrum]

They briefly spoke on the issues of the kuva lich system on the Devstream. They made it absolutely clear that, while they are listening, they are hyper-focused on Empyrean, and will not be dealing with kuva liches until Empyrean is done. It seems they are committed to having it out while we're still in 2019 (though I'm not holding my breath on that).

I just wanted to touch on one specific thing Steve said about the kuva lich: there are currently no plans for them to change that the lich kills us when we fail to use the right Requiem mods in our Parazon.

This is a huge mistake, and I feel like we as a community need to be especially loud about this part of the design. I get that the community has all sorts of complaints about kuva liches, but this one specific thing is the most glaring flaw in the whole system, and we cannot let it be lost in the sea of all the other complaints

Playing Russian roulette with our lich is not fun. We do not enjoy it. We do not want it.

It is the number one reason players will refuse to kill their lich. If we do not feel ready to kill the lich, we'll ignore it and finish the rest of the mission. This isn't just a problem in Public matches, but it doesn't make sense. If our lich is meant to be a personal threat to our Tenno, then it makes absolutely no sense that we are incentivized to ignoring it. The lich doesn't even really seem to care enough to follow us when we move on. They're left behind where they spawned, shouting insults.

Steve suggested that it felt really unique that something existed in Warframe that could outright kick our asses as a real threat. But this does not feel like a real threat. It's just a pass/fail mechanic that we have a 1 in 336 chance at guessing correctly.
For those who suck at math, yes - there are 336 permutations of the Requiem mods on our Parazon. Farming murmurs to reveal them makes this easier, (and there's always trial and error, one "digit" of the code at a time), but it's absolutely ridiculous that failure results in automatic death.

But more importantly, failing to kill that lich means it ranks up! Instead of being level 50ish, it'll be closer to level 100. I don't have a problem fighting a lich of that level. I've done it, it presents a decent challenge... but I'm not rewarded for that challenge. I would love to be given a real reason to want to rank up our lich, but we simply have none.

Therefore, we have ZERO reason to even try to kill the lich until we have farmed enough murmurs to guarantee killing it. The reward is not worth the risk.

It's simply bad game design.

Edited December 8, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Aldain]

Honestly at this point it is more on the principle of a pointless death for me than anything about efficiency or RNG, as anyone who has seen my name in the past 3-5 weeks is likely aware of by now.

Thankfully I am OBNOXIOUSLY STUBBORN when it comes to things like this, so expect me to campaign for it until DE relents, or the heat death of the universe, whichever comes first.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Aldain

[taiiat]

out of principle, i'll agree as that's a psychological impact of the system. dying for not guessing a Slot Machine right is the opposite of feeling fun, rewarding, or engaging. and that opposite, is being punished, even if not in much of a way that's really significant, for RNG.
it doesn't actually matter that there is no real punishment to speak of, it feels like a punishment, and a punishment for something you do not have control over.

being punished, regardless of how significant the punishment, for something that has zero Skill of any sort by the Player being involved.

 

 

Edit:
this is some parts of what Shadow of Mordor/War has with this popularized system that Warframe failed to copy. in each of these games, you are rewarded for pulling off things that are in your control, plus reacting/defending against unexpected results.
and given the opportunity to get revenge if you fail, and that failure comes from you failing as a Player, not the game rolling dice.

that is a very important part of the 'Nemesis System', it's an important part of what makes it work in the first place. 

to which end, i don't think i've ever heard someone that has played either of those LOTR games say that they hated it. instead what you hear is "this Captain was a real pain and things got complicated and other Captains came in and i did this and that and the other thing and i maybe got Killed but i got his arse and stabbed him real good".
or things like "this Captain just wouldn't stay dead, i cut off limbs and sliced his gut and he just kept coming back after me again and again. but i finally got him, screw that dude!".
that's the sound of Players having fun, with the real struggle involved in that having increased the fun. (not that there were some XP bars/Timers to wait through)

Edited December 8, 2019 by taiiat

[Invictus13307]

Auto-kill mechanics don't make me feel like the Kuva Lich can kick my ass.  It just feels like I have to pay an affinity penalty to figure out the requiems.  It doesn't feel good, it feels tedious, like paying a tax.  (To be clear, I'm specifically talking about the auto-kill, not the animation.  Trading blows with the Lich is fine.)

Spitballing an idea: Instead of auto-killing the player, a failed requiem could make the Kuva Lich go berserk.  A berserk Kuva Lich has increased speed and damage, and cannot be put in a downed state, but slowly loses health over time until it disappears.  Basically, change the punishment from "cutscene death" to "minute-long panic encounter with buffed-up, hyper-aggressive killing machine".  I think that'd better convey the "unique thing that can kick our ass" than a cutscene, since we get to engage with it instead of just watch it happen. 

[DrakeWurrum]

16 minutes ago, Invictus13307 said:

Auto-kill mechanics don't make me feel like the Kuva Lich can kick my ass.  It just feels like I have to pay an affinity penalty to figure out the requiems.  It doesn't feel good, it feels tedious, like paying a tax.  (To be clear, I'm specifically talking about the auto-kill, not the animation.  Trading blows with the Lich is fine.)

Spitballing an idea: Instead of auto-killing the player, a failed requiem could make the Kuva Lich go berserk.  A berserk Kuva Lich has increased speed and damage, and cannot be put in a downed state, but slowly loses health over time until it disappears.  Basically, change the punishment from "cutscene death" to "minute-long panic encounter with buffed-up, hyper-aggressive killing machine".  I think that'd better convey the "unique thing that can kick our ass" than a cutscene, since we get to engage with it instead of just watch it happen. 

Frankly, I think the feeling that it's a threat needs to come from the actual fight with the lich, not from "Oh, wrong code word, so you die."

Edited December 8, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Chaemyerelis]

Liches killing us is stupid. They should just retreat or something after we stab them.

[Sunder]

We've been saying this repeatedly. Anytime DE speaks of it, community response is negative.If they post on reddit about it, they're downvoted into oblivion. 

Rest assured DE knows we find the suicide RNG coin toss ridiculous. They know we dislike it and want to have an ACTUAL adversary that we fight and if we die? That's on us. Not RNG. But also know that DE does not care. Someone is stubborn and seems to campaign for this "feature" to remain as-is. Why? I don't know. What I do know is if DE wants to fix/expand upon the Lich "Nemesis" system into something that players can communicate with them on? That we actually enjoy playing and interacting with? They first need to start at the base and do 2 things. 

1. Make the fight fair. Make it skill based. 
2. Lighten up the RNG somehow. 

After that they can play with methods of how it goes down and features to expand upon and all that fun stuff. Till they do that I'll be repeating myself as always, Avoid the Lich system entirely and warn new players against interacting with it at all. Remember, we don't want them to get stuck with the same RNG based nonsense and quit the game. And as always....

Going to my doom to progress isn't fun DE.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sunder

[DoomFruit]

Well, the way forward for me is pretty clear.

The system was crap on release for many many reasons, all of which have been stated many many times here and elsewhere.

There's been plenty of feedback on how it can be changed.

Every single bit of feedback was either completely ignored or twisted into something that completely dodges the original point.

This situation has been the case for a full month now.

The solution is simple: never ever touch the "lich" system. Make sure that everyone you know rejects it as well. Just as importantly, never touch it again in the future, no matter what's done to it. There needs to be a constant reminder for DE of what happens when you introduce blatantly player-hostile things into the game.

[Xepthrichros]

12 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

but it's absolutely ridiculous that failure results in automatic death.

And death in Warframe is almost inconsequential. The small amount of affinity lost per death is negligible enough that two or three minutes of gameplay will earn back that same amount or more. Only thing lost might be a bit of "face" / respect from your random pub team mates who may be wondering why you died. But then again, everyone understands by now that Lich battles involve death and probably do not even think twice if a team mate dies when the Parazon combo is incorrect. And in the whole game, generally, having played it for thousands of hours, the number of times I've heard anybody complain about anyone else dying is so few, I can count the instances on one hand. 

 

That said, I say we should still get to kill the Lich repeatedly and have it rank up as we kill it more, simply based on what was advertised pre-release. I recall the pitch in the devstream being that each time they die, they return stronger. Until we figure out how to end them completely, then they are gone or recruited.

Here's how I propose they deliver on that original pitch, while also keeping the WWE/Bane Backbreaker moves.

- When Parazon mods are entirely wrong. They pro-wrestling grapple and  backbreak us and we die.

- When we have at least one Parazon correct, we get a guarantee to do that first finisher after the first HP bar is down, then 33% chance to pull off the finisher on the subsequent two HP bars. If successful all the way, the Lich "dies". Once we extract and return to navigation. We get a transmission where the Lich calls us and taunts us about dying and returning. Their current dialogue already suggests they have died many times, so there's no new dialogue that would have to be recorded. For each HP bar we knock off, we get a decent bunch of Murmurs. More murmurs than killing 1 Thrall, preferably.   When we have at least two Parazon mods correct, we are guranteed to knock off the first 2 HP bars, then the third bar has 66% chance to have the finisher land. And same as the 1 correct Parazon mod condition, knock off all 3 HP chunks, and then the Lich "dies" and returns to taunt us in Navigation. In either case, as long as not all Parazon mods are correct, but the Lich dies to it, the Lich will return after the mission is over, call us on navigation, and  rank up. The 33% and 66% chance of success means that if we do fail, DE still gets to show off their wrestling animations, the Lich will  "kill" us, and rank up. Whether we manage to "kill" the Lich or get ourselves "killed", we get the Murmur reward for the time spent facing off with the Lich. 

- Once we have all 3 Parazons correct, we can finish them off for good. Convert and Vanquish options appear after the final HP bar, etc.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Xepthrichros
Changed slightly to make it more similar to current system in the game

[DoomFruit]

47 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And death in Warframe is almost inconsequential. The small amount so affinity lost per death is negligible enough that two or three minutes of gameplay will earn back that same amount or more.

So then, would you also be OK with it if every time you picked up a mod, it had a 50% chance to explode and throw you straight to the revive screen?

[Nez-Kal]

If DE thought these Liches insta-killing us for not Guess-And-Check'ing  correctly was a great idea, I can't wait to see their next installments in the coming year:

• "Introducing the new Grineer Hack Consoles! If you choose to try and disarm an Alarm, there is now a Risk System involved! If you pull a Peg out that you already put in, You DIE! Instant Death! Now Players will have to think twice about shutting down alarms, and concentrate on the Puzzles while hacking them!"
• "Introducing the "Golden Shot"! Every 100 bullets fired by an enemy, there's a chance of a Golden Shot, which Insta-Kills the Player no matter what Level the Enemy is or the Frame/Buffs the Player has on them!"
• "Introducing......Die....................You....you just Die.....Randomly.......It just happens sometimes..........just...think of it as an in-game Brain Aneurysm for your Frame, or something."

 

Jokes aside, I really hope they alter this mess, and I've already given suggestions on how they could fix it as well.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Tangent-Valley

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

So then, would you also be OK with it if every time you picked up a mod, it had a 50% chance to explode and throw you straight to the revive screen?

This is a bad comparison to Kuva Lich battles. You pick up mods aplenty in every mission. And mods are an item drop. You encounter a Lich only after you irritate one sufficiently, so they come after you for revenge. 

And since I am going to encounter the Lich at a frequency similar to encountering other assassin-type enemies. And the Lich is supposed to be a badass boss-like character. Then yes. I am okay with dying. This is just a game. Death is inconsequential. Also, your comparison seems to overlook the fact that the Lich is supposed to be a boss-like thing that gives you some trouble. You are just focusing on the loot. But it is not intended to be just about the loot, but also the process of a respawning adversary that antagonizes us. 

And Liches don't bother you in arbitrations, yet. If or when they do, then I would say some of the angst about death is justified. 

 

 

And even if a loot crate did transform into a monster and instakill me, that's perfectly fine. I am used to that from Mimics in DS. Would be interesting to observe a Kuva Lich using their variant of Sleight of Hand / Explosive Legerdermain on us.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[DoomFruit]

28 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

This is a bad comparison to Kuva Lich battles. You pick up mods aplenty in every mission. And mods are an item drop. You encounter a Lich only after you irritate one sufficiently, so they come after you for revenge.

No, it's a perfect comparison. In both cases, you have already won the fight. Depending on how you use healing and regen abilities, you could quite well be at full health and energy before you even pick up the mod/use the context button on the "lich".

Justify why players should actively get killed after they have won the battle and done everything that the game asked them to (farmed all the murmurs).

To look at it another way: if they were implemented as actual liches where you shoot their health off, then stab them and they die (regardless of mods) only to rise again at the end of the mission (because, y'know, that's what liches do) if you have the wrong batteries inserted, would you then be here actively asking for the devs to kill you if you got the mod order wrong.

Do you genuinely believe that the gameplay, if released that way, actually would have suffered from the players not dying instantly in a cutscene after they've won the fight. If so, which other places would you add the "player dies in a cutscene after they've already won" mechanic?

  

30 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And since I am going to encounter the Lich at a frequency similar to encountering other assassin-type enemies. And the Lich is supposed to be a badass boss-like character. Then yes. I am okay with dying. This is just a game. Death is inconsequential. Also, your comparison seems to overlook the fact that the Lich is supposed to be a boss-like thing that gives you some trouble. You are just focusing on the loot. But it is not intended to be just about the loot, but also the process of a respawning adversary that antagonizes us. 

If the "lich" is supposed to be a badass boss character, that ought to show in the gameplay. Flawlessly wiping the floor with them during gameplay and then dying suddenly in a cutscene afterwards breaks the crap out of immersion and only happens because the game designer has no idea what they're doing.

I am not focusing on the loot. I haven't even created a single "lich". I'm pissed off about the complete disconnect between gameplay and story.

EDIT:

29 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And even if a loot crate did transform into a monster and instakill me, that's perfectly fine. I am used to that from Mimics in DS.

Mimics in DS are different from normal chests, which allows those observant and cautious enough to avoid dying through gameplay (or just having high enough stats to survive their attack). This is not an accurate comparison to the current situation.

Edited December 8, 2019 by DoomFruit

[Xepthrichros]

13 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Justify why players should actively get killed after they have won the battle and done everything that the game asked them to (farmed all the murmurs).

I already justified it with my suggestion. The current game also justifies it.

You lose when 1) You don't have all the murmurs to unlock all 3 parazon requirements. 2) You haven't figured out the right combo or sequence. (or in my suggestion, you have a chance to lose/die, so I made it a bit more lenient).

If you have all the murmurs, the right parazon configuration sequence, you win, unless you encounter some glitch. So I don't know what you are trying to point out, besides stating a lose condition that does not reflect the actual game's lose condition..

And besides, as I mentioned already, the death doesn't cost much. Some affinity if you are leveling stuff. If you are not leveling stuff and are just there with maxed out gear to kill thralls and liches, then it cost you nothing tangible at all. The death doesn't send you back to the mission's start point. It doesn't force you to quit/extract immediately. It doesn't inflict some lasting status effect on the Warframe who died to a Lich for the remainder of the mission etc. Just revive and continue on with business as usual.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Xepthrichros
typo

[DoomFruit]

16 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

I already justified it with my suggestion. The current game also justifies it.

You lose when 1) You don't have all the murmurs to unlock all 3 parazon requirements. 2) You haven't figured out the right combo or sequence. (or in my suggestion, you have a chance to lose/die, so I made it a bit more lenient).

The current game does absolutely nothing to justify you getting instakilled in a cutscene. Hell, it doesn't even indicates that these requiem mods exist or do anything at all. There is nothing in the wrestling move cutscene which indicates that you have the wrong mods or in the wrong order, or that these mods are doing anything at all.

If you want to keep those wrestling moves, have the "lich" actually charge up and grab us (either mid-fight with a telegraphed attack, or after they put us into bleedout). That's gameplay, and it's something that we can actively do something about ourselves.

As it is now, there is precisely zero way of finding out the mod order without playing Russian Roulette with either 5 loaded chambers (which are your best odds, after doing absolutely everything the game has), or a semi-automatic pistol (1/336 chance of not getting instakilled if you've done no preparation). There's no information gathering, no spying, no interception, no interrogating prisoners to get the mod order. Just "#*!% you players, now put this gun to your head and pull the trigger".

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Honesty, if their plans were to put all focus on Empyrean when it comes out then IDK why they bothered putting out the Lich system so little before it. Because it’s a system that needs a lot of changes for it to be actually fun and rewarding. But it’s honestly being treated as an after thought.

[Steel_Rook]

I'm still convinced that DE slapped together The Old Blood in a massive hurry and simply couldn't figure out how to make the fight end properly unless we just die. They're holding onto this "power reversal" farce even though we can all pretty much see through it. My Lich kicking me in the nuts and running away after I've dominated it and the entire mission is not a power reversal. It's a sucker punch. Doubly so when the Lich cries like a sissy on every successful Parazon mod, but will then pretend to be big and mighty the one time I guessed wrong. I would honestly be more receptive to excuses if there WERE any. This farce about how they always intended for the Lich fights to be a power reversal strikes me as praising the quality of the tailoring on the emperor who has no clothes.

[DrakeWurrum]

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And death in Warframe is almost inconsequential.

It adds nothing positive to have us automatically die when we just don't use the right code word to kill the lich. It's a purely negative experience to be forced to die, and it keeps us from bothering with the lich until we have unveiled all three Requiems, and EVEN THEN, we still have to guess the order. At least then we have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it right.

RNG death isn't a positive gaming experience. That's the consequence. Players should be rewarded for playing well, and lose for playing badly. Not die for losing the lottery.

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Honesty, if their plans were to put all focus on Empyrean when it comes out then IDK why they bothered putting out the Lich system so little before it. Because it’s a system that needs a lot of changes for it to be actually fun and rewarding. But it’s honestly being treated as an after thought.

I think that's because liches are supposed to be a big part of Empyrean. Remember what they showed at Tennocon - the massive space battle against a lich. It seems they intend for that to be sort of like the biggest part of Railjack... a massive freaking space battle with a bad-ass boss to fight.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm still convinced that DE slapped together The Old Blood in a massive hurry and simply couldn't figure out how to make the fight end properly unless we just die. They're holding onto this "power reversal" farce even though we can all pretty much see through it. My Lich kicking me in the nuts and running away after I've dominated it and the entire mission is not a power reversal. It's a sucker punch. Doubly so when the Lich cries like a sissy on every successful Parazon mod, but will then pretend to be big and mighty the one time I guessed wrong. I would honestly be more receptive to excuses if there WERE any. This farce about how they always intended for the Lich fights to be a power reversal strikes me as praising the quality of the tailoring on the emperor who has no clothes.

Oh yes, I'll agree it's slapped together. It feels like they're rushing out this content in a major crunch right at the end of the year because they gave themselves a "deadline" of Xmas 2019, and... it's showing in the results. It's why Empyrean isn't launching with the Command skill, meaning we can't recruit NPCs for solo play until they finish that.

I'm just hoping they can clean up this mess and don't continue this as a trend, because it's a major mistake made by the "AAA" devs out there all the time. They spent most of the year procrastinating on things, and then suddenly in the last couple months of the year we get the big updates and they're actually complaining about working hard in the devstream (check 134, when Reb is trying to bring up the kuva lich subject). They could've been working at a relaxed pace the whole year, with much less stress, and to much more positive community feedback, but they didn't.

It's funny how people still hate on LifeOf Rio, but he's constantly proven right with his criticism.

Edited December 8, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 

I think that's because liches are supposed to be a big part of Empyrean. Remember what they showed at Tennocon - the massive space battle against a lich. It seems they intend for that to be sort of like the biggest part of Railjack... a massive freaking space battle with a bad-ass boss to fight.

Oh yeah because people who already have major issues with the Lich system are gonna suddenly drop all criticism because it now interacts with the Railjack content.

Also, Rio is nothing but clickbait. The only reason he’s technically right about the recent content is because The Old Blood update genuinely sucks. But one instance of reinforcing his behavior does not mean he is right about everything else.

Edited December 8, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[DrakeWurrum]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But one instance of reinforcing his behavior does not mean he is right about everything else.

That's just it. He has been right about everything else. There's a reason other content creators are now out there saying the same things he does about lack of content.

He does a lot of trolling because that's what he has fun doing, but he gives plenty of serious criticism that is on point.

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Oh yeah because people who already have major issues with the Lich system are gonna suddenly drop all criticism because it now interacts with the Railjack content.

Wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm just saying that DE seems to see the lich system as integral to what Empyrean is gonna be. Which can be a good thing, so long as it means they really do continue to update both systems.

Edited December 8, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Sunder]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I'm just saying that DE seems to see the lich system as integral to what Empyrean is gonna be. Which can be a good thing, so long as it means they really do continue to update both systems.

Before they can expand upon Lich and Empyrean they have to fix the base of it. If I still have to encounter Liches on their ship and be forced into that suicide-roulette? Then that's another aspect of Warframe I'm just going to ignore. And like the current system I'm ignoring, I'll be actively telling new players to avoid it as well. I want to watch this game grow and expand and be awesome. We can't do that if we don't bring in new players. Warframe has plenty to offer people but I don't want them experiencing the same RNG heavy nonsense and just quitting. And as always I'll repeat myself whenever on this subject.

Going to my doom to progress isn't fun DE

Regardless how you look at it, if they give them their own ships, their own space battles, all of that will still come back to the fact that we have to encounter them and rely on RNG to kill them. There's no combating this, there's no fighting chance. RNG dictates, "You either guessed right, and win! Or you guess wrong and you die. No you can't rely on skill....or past experience.....or anything that you've learned in your time playing and working up to where you are now. You're just dead....because I said so."

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sunder

[DrakeWurrum]

9 minutes ago, Sunder said:

If I still have to encounter Liches on their ship and be forced into that suicide-roulette?

Exactly why we need to be really, really loud about this.

Even without the chance for them to kill you, I think it's pretty messed up if it's possible for you to NOT have the mods in the right order, and then... the whole mission was pointless.

[Sunder]

13 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Exactly why we need to be really, really loud about this.

We have been. Every thread about the Lich system says the same thing De has now said multiple times the same thing

1. Reb mentioned on stream they have no plans to change
   • This was met with negative remarks and spurred reddit and the forums to create more threads about how it's a horrid system
2. Reb mentioned on Reddit they're not changing the instant kill
   • Her comment was downvoted into oblivion and every reply was on how horrible that decision was and they need to change it
3. Steve mentioned on stream they're not changing it, they have other things to work on anyway
   • This is creating worry and despair among players.
   • Shows DE isn't taking our feedback into consideration
   • Paranoia that future updates could receive the same treatment

And I think someone mentioned it on twitter and was met with the same hostility and negative expressions of how much this is a bad system. From people raging we didn't get what was shown at TennoCon to people simply wanting the suicide roulette changed. But DE still seems to remain staunch in their decision to keep the system as-is. Despite its many flaws.Even with people composing well structured and thought out posts about what's wrong, why it's not fun or enjoyable, and what can be done to change it. 

As such I can only suggest, Avoid the Lich system entirely. Warn new players from touching it at all. Let DE know that going to our doom to progress is NOT fun.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sunder

[DrakeWurrum]

3 minutes ago, Sunder said:

We have been. Every thread about the Lich system says the same thing De has now said multiple times the same thing

1. Reb mentioned on stream they have no plans to change
   • This was met with negative remarks and spurred reddit and the forums to create more threads about how it's a horrid system
2. Reb mentioned on Reddit they're not changing the instant kill
   • Her comment was downvoted into oblivion and every reply was on how horrible that decision was and they need to change it
3. Steve mentioned on stream they're not changing it, they have other things to work on anyway
   • This is creating worry and despair among players.
   • Shows DE isn't taking our feedback into consideration
   • Paranoia that future updates could receive the same treatment

And I think someone mentioned it on twitter and was met with the same hostility and negative expressions of how much this is a bad system. From people raging we didn't get what was shown at TennoCon to people simply wanting the suicide roulette changed. But DE still seems to remain staunch in their decision to keep the system as-is. Despite its many flaws.Even with people composing well structured and thought out posts about what's wrong, why it's not fun or enjoyable, and what can be done to change it. 

As such I can only suggest, Avoid the Lich system entirely. Warn new players from touching it at all. Let DE know that going to our doom to progress is NOT fun.

What kills me is the way it was phrased on the Devstream.

The way Reb phrased it when asking Steve about it was that we players want them to be more undead-like. But the theme isn't the damn problem, it's the mechanics of the system itself that is making players upset!

[taiiat]

14 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And even if a loot crate did transform into a monster and instakill me, that's perfectly fine. I am used to that from Mimics in DS.

Mimics are totally different from this. there is no surprise death because reasons, if you die to a Mimic, you screwed up as the Player because it's really plenty obvious enough when it is a Mimic or isn't.

or, in some games that just use Mimics as a style rather than the full Game Mechanic, then it's an Enemy that you fight rather than a diceroll whether opening a Container means game over.