Proposed Rhino changes

[vladoMNE]

rhino is a great frame as he is now, but i'd like to propose some changes

1. make his iron shrapnel augment and ironclad charge augment part of his ability. he needs this because if you want to go for the absolute best rhino build youre gonna have 45% efficiency and with that efficiency and no flow/primed flow you cant even cast stomp and if you do use streamline youre gonna have 24% less strength because you didnt put augur secrets (tldr, takes up 2 slots and are a must have to play rhino properly), iron shrapnel could be replaced with "magnetic skin" which would pull all enemies to rhino after shedding iron skin but i dont know about ironclad charge, you decide

2. make adaptation proc when iron skin takes damage. rhino gets outclassed by a nidus or inaros and this seems like just what he needs, but if this seems overpowered, cap the amount of enemies ironclad charge can stack (cap it to 8 or 10, people rarely ever even go above that)

3. increase energy cap to 170 (this would be nice because he cant cast rhino stomp without streamline or flow when he is using blind rage)

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

None of these changes are really good except the second one. Also, they don't really outclass Rhino, SPECIALLY Inaros. The problem is that, most people don't really know how adaptation works, so they will suppose that anything that "abuses" it is much more tanky than something that doesn't.

Adaptation only blocks 1 damage type per enemy type (because enemy types are tied to specific a weapon), and it's only the highest damage of the weapon. And the best is that you can test it by yourself, go to simulacrum and spam 20 enemies of the same type, you'll only stack 1 resistance unless they use a special attack (like how Heavy Gunners punch the floor). Knowing this, let's imagine an hypothetic weapon with:

Damage: 100 impact/200 puncture/300 slash/400 viral. Total damage = 1000

You would reduce only the viral by 90%, the actual damage after reduction = 100+200+300+40 = 640. Resulting in 36% damage reduction, not so good anymore right?

The fact is, Rhino can reach 100k+ Iron Skin without arcanes with a dedicated build, with something like 2x Arcane Tanker he can maybe reach 300k+. 

That's basically 300k true health, not to mention that people could already reach 1 million Iron Skin (just search on YouTube) before Arcane Tankers even exist...so, yeah, no. People don't study how those calculations work and they severely underestimate Rhino.

Edited December 23, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[vladoMNE]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

None of these changes are really good except the second one. Also, they don't really outclass Rhino, SPECIALLY Inaros. The problem is that, most people don't really know how adaptation works, so they will suppose that anything that "abuses" it is much more tanky than something that doesn't.

Adaptation only blocks 1 damage type per enemy type (because enemy types are tied to specific weapon), and it's only the highest damage of the weapon. Let's imagine an hypothetic weapon with:

Damage: 100 impact/200 puncture/300 slash/400 viral. Total damage = 1000

You would reduce only the viral by 90%, the actual damage after reduction = 100+200+300+40 = 640. Resulting in 36% damage reduction, not so good anymore right?

The fact is, Rhino can reach 100k+ Iron Skin without arcanes with a dedicated build, with something like 2x Arcane Tanker he can maybe reach 300k+. 

That's basically 300k true health, not to mention that people could already reach 1 million Iron Skin (just search on YouTube) before Arcane Tankers even exist...so, yeah, no. People don't study how those calculations work and they severely underestimate Rhino.

im  a rhino main myself and i did not know about this spicy rhino tech. thank you

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Just now, vladoMNE said:

im  a rhino main myself and i did not know about this spicy rhino tech. thank you

I can reach 100k+ charging through 5 enemies, no Arcanes. It's the Ironclad Conversion Rhino build. 

Mods: Armored Agility, Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage, Intensify, Health Conversion, Iron Shrapnel, Flow, Ironclad Charge. Aura: any. Exilus: Power Drift.

Mods necessary for your Sentinel (you'll need): Synth Fiber/Synth Deconstruct. 

How it works: those 2 mods for your Sentinel will help you get more health drops and to pick them (because you can't use them if you don't lose health), each Health orb up to 3 increases your armor by 450 (1350 total), charge through enemies, profit. 

Also, make sure to use Zenuurik because sadly, the only real downside of Rhino is how stupidly bad his energy management is, doesn't help that he can't benefit from mods like Rage/Hunter Adrenaline...

Edited December 23, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Rhino can be absurdly tanky via arcanes and iorn clad charge. To the point that recasting isn't really a factor to consider. 

He doesn't really need any significant changes imo. Just QoL updates. 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Rhino can be absurdly tanky via arcanes and iorn clad charge. To the point that recasting isn't really a factor to consider. 

He doesn't really need any significant changes imo. Just QoL updates. 

TBH, I really think Rhino needs some kind of energy regeneration passive. He can't benefit from energy mods like literally ALL tanks of the game.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

TBH, I really think Rhino needs some kind of energy regeneration passive. He can't benefit from energy mods like literally ALL tanks of the game.

This is true. But when you're at the end game you probably have access to lots of energy pads and/a full set of arcanes. So while it is an inconvenience for his kit alone it's not really a difficult issue to bypass when considering the rest of what you potentially have access to. 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This is true. But when you're at the end game you probably have access to lots of energy pads and/a full set of arcanes. So while it is an inconvenience for his kit alone it's not really a difficult issue to bypass when considering the rest of what you potentially have access to. 

That's a weak argument to justify not changing that specific flaw in his design, all Warframes designed to tank have melee combat in mind, but Rhino is the only one of them that can't benefit from Naramon because that would mean not using Zenuurik and having to depend on consumables...

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

That's a weak argument to justify not changing that specific flaw in his design, all Warframes designed to tank have melee combat in mind, but Rhino is the only one of them that can't benefit from Naramon because that would mean not using Zenuurik and having to depend on consumables...

I'm not arguing against change.  I'm merely stating why such a change probably isn't a priority to the dev team.  Rhino also has the ability to be a CC monster with stomp meaning he's less reliant on iron clad tanking.  It really just depends on what build style you're going for with rhino.

[peterc3]

2 hours ago, vladoMNE said:

he cant cast rhino stomp without streamline or flow when he is using blind rage

If your suggestion is based on a problem resulting from the use of a mod like Blind Rage, there's nothing to be done because you are using a mod with an explicit downside.

2 hours ago, vladoMNE said:

rhino gets outclassed by a nidus or inaros

Have you tried building Rhino for how you want to play, rather than blindly copying a build off the internet?

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

6 hours ago, vladoMNE said:

rhino is a great frame as he is now, but i'd like to propose some changes

1. make his iron shrapnel augment and ironclad charge augment part of his ability. he needs this because if you want to go for the absolute best rhino build youre gonna have 45% efficiency and with that efficiency and no flow/primed flow you cant even cast stomp and if you do use streamline youre gonna have 24% less strength because you didnt put augur secrets (tldr, takes up 2 slots and are a must have to play rhino properly), iron shrapnel could be replaced with "magnetic skin" which would pull all enemies to rhino after shedding iron skin but i dont know about ironclad charge, you decide

Ironclad charge? The one that gives him his batS#&$ insane tankiness? And you want it innate? 

HA

Iron shrapnel id like to stay as it, but make it so naturally rhino can recast iron skin without shrapnel, it just does no damage

6 hours ago, vladoMNE said:

2. make adaptation proc when iron skin takes damage. rhino gets outclassed by a nidus or inaros and this seems like just what he needs, but if this seems overpowered, cap the amount of enemies ironclad charge can stack (cap it to 8 or 10, people rarely ever even go above that)

 

Id rather not cap the amount of enemies that can be hit with ironclad, thats just silly.

As for adaption working, it would be weird if it did for sure. Would arcane guardian also work then? Unlike most tanks rhino doesnt take damage while iron skin is active, the skin itself does, thats why “on damage” proccing effects cant work. Funny enough you can proc things like guardian in the 3 second phase of damage absorption for ironskin because he’s just invincible, not untouchable. 

6 hours ago, vladoMNE said:

3. increase energy cap to 170 (this would be nice because he cant cast rhino stomp without streamline or flow when he is using blind rage)

No...

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Rhino is beastly. I want more armor for him however, and i would like his pure cc to actually scale in dmg. Vauban got a rework to his pure cc, no reason why Rhino cant as well. 

[Lone_Dude]

On 12/24/2019 at 12:00 AM, vladoMNE said:

rhino is a great frame as he is now, but i'd like to propose some changes

1. make his iron shrapnel augment and ironclad charge augment part of his ability. he needs this because if you want to go for the absolute best rhino build youre gonna have 45% efficiency and with that efficiency and no flow/primed flow you cant even cast stomp and if you do use streamline youre gonna have 24% less strength because you didnt put augur secrets (tldr, takes up 2 slots and are a must have to play rhino properly)

Well, if your build won't allow you to use certain abilities it simply isn't a good build. Isn't it the whole purpose of builds to create a specific setup for a specific playstyle, while making sacrifices here and there?

TL;DR of your post is "I INSTALLED 362719012 STRENGTH MODS AND NOW I DONT HAVE A SLOT FOR ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND CANT USE MY 4 SO GIVE ME FREE MOD SLOTS"

I do agree though, that we shouldn't need an augment to shed Iron Skin - it's kind of dumb since a lot of maps allow you to do it anyway by jumping into pits and nullies exist. A QoL change wouldn't hurt, and a buff to Iron Shrapnel(just give it slash procs lmao came up with it in 2 seconds) would certainly help it to stay relevant.

Also Adaptation over Iron Skin is dumb. Another way to dumb down a frame that doesn't really need it.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Lone_Dude

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

13 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Rhino is beastly. I want more armor for him however, and i would like his pure cc to actually scale in dmg. Vauban got a rework to his pure cc, no reason why Rhino cant as well. 

Rhino has damage, cc, survivability, and team support.

Vauban had cc before his rework, which is why he also got team support and damage with his rework. 

 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

9 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Rhino has damage, cc, survivability, and team support.

Vauban had cc before his rework, which is why he also got team support and damage with his rework. 

 

Rhino has dmg? No. Hes an epic support but his abilities dont do any substantial dmg.

[AlphaRyuuxx]

1. I'd just like iron skin to be innately recast able, no burst damage. 

2. Maybe change stomps augment to be percentage

3. An increase base of energy from 100-130/150 would be nice. 

4. Maybe have his passives damage and range scale with iron skin. I know his passives a meme, like really bad, but just a little something might make it more... well anything aside from a full blown passive change. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

10 hours ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

1. I'd just like iron skin to be innately recast able, no burst damage. 

2. Maybe change stomps augment to be percentage

3. An increase base of energy from 100-130/150 would be nice. 

4. Maybe have his passives damage and range scale with iron skin. I know his passives a meme, like really bad, but just a little something might make it more... well anything aside from a full blown passive change. 

Maybe it could draw aggro

[AlphaRyuuxx]

8 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Maybe it could draw aggro

what do you mean draw aggro? Like the slam itself draws aggro or just a whole new ability that draws aggro. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

2 hours ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

what do you mean draw aggro? Like the slam itself draws aggro or just a whole new ability that draws aggro. 

The slam itself, yes.

[AlphaRyuuxx]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

The slam itself, yes.

I mean don't see a point in it drawing aggro. I think just having the range and damage scale off of iron skin would make it more useful than an aggro drawer. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

I mean don't see a point in it drawing aggro. I think just having the range and damage scale off of iron skin would make it more useful than an aggro drawer. 

Theres an item in League of Legends that causes you to place a large AoE freeze slow that scales off your armor, i could see something like that easily on rhino. Up to a cap obviously, but make his his shockwave scale 1 meter for every 1000 ironskin hp to a cap of 20 meters bonus, or 25 total meters

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

9 hours ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

I mean don't see a point in it drawing aggro. I think just having the range and damage scale off of iron skin would make it more useful than an aggro drawer. 

Anything that draws aggro is good imo. Especially for a frame like Rhino.

[AlphaRyuuxx]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Anything that draws aggro is good imo. Especially for a frame like Rhino.

in a game where almost every frame has some form of survivability on their own and do enough damage to clear enemies out before they're even hurt, drawing aggros pretty useless. Wukong's defy only does this because he needs to take dmg to charge it. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

14 hours ago, AlphaRyuuxx said:

in a game where almost every frame has some form of survivability on their own and do enough damage to clear enemies out before they're even hurt, drawing aggros pretty useless. Wukong's defy only does this because he needs to take dmg to charge it. 

Drawing aggro would allow iron skin to charge up without having to use ironclad charge. 

[Xzorn]

Can only agree that Iron Shrapnel should be built into Iron Skin just as Nova being able to re-cast her 1st ability should have been.

Rhino should already be using Primed Flow in any meaningful content. Energy Leech will quickly ruin his day when he needs to re-cast Iron Skin and if you never have to re-cast it than worrying about 24% Power Strength doesn't matter anyways.

Rhino is the 2nd highest eHP tank in the game only to Trinity & Nidus who are about equal. Inaros isn't even close. He's like 9th. Letting Iron Skin gain resistance from Adaptation would make him ludicrous. He already has very reliable eHP because he's not subject to Armor double dips.

I don't get why I keep seeing these Rhino threads. It's like players are intent to ruin one of the most long lasting good frames in the game.