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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


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On 2020-11-01 at 6:40 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

This shows the warframe abilities that are replaced the most. As you can see Ash`s 1st is within the top 10 which says a lot and his 4th is 22nd on this list, again it`s the marking mechanic that is the reason why it even on here.

simply looking at the most replaced doesnt tell the full story tho... sometimes the replacemtn is a random meh skill in order to bolster a bad skill enough to be usefull.... look at inaros for example 3 of his abilities are very rarely used by anyone. however his ult which by itself is useless can be made very good in most content by adding the augment and substituting his 2 or 3 for a diferent ability at helmynth then bam, his 4 goes from worst base ability to his best ability. problem is despite being arguably the worst ability at its base you arent replacing it to make it his best, so going off whats replaced most doesnt tell u what his worse base ability is.

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While I disagree with people saying that Ash is garbage, I would be fool to say that he's a great designed warframe. He has imo one of the least synergestic kits in the entire game. He has 4 different abilities slapped together randomly that don't work with eachother and it feels like the only reason they were picked is because "he ninja bro". Where are synergies? Why would I use his abilities together? There's nothing that encourages pressing different buttons and in fact, all of his builds consist of pressing one ability of your choice.

Not only there are no synergies, there are thing that make no sense whatsoever, the antisynergies, so to speak. For a warframe that is focused purely on finisher damage and slash procs, all of which ignores armor, why would Ash feel the need for an ability to strip armor? This is beyond pointless.

Then we go onto his 3 + 4 "synergy". The only thing it does is make them unusable with eachother, because the moment this sequence ends Ash will just immediately die in any form of challenging content.

Not to mention his abilities are kind of weak. Shurikens are garbage damage source that works as an enemy position indicator. I also think the augment is garbage as well - you waste mod slot for something that other warframes can do in huge AoE without wasting modspace? Wtf? Why is this augment defended so much? His 3 is fun idea but poor execution, it seems harder to aim with than most of pinpoint accurate guns. I don't understand why am I supposed to desperately spam this ability button just so I can move from one position to another. His 4 deals good damage but it literally goes to enemy one by one, making it one of slowest killers out here even with attack speed riven. I am refusing to mention current aiming mechanics because this garbage shouldnt exist to begin with.

It feels rough because Ash could easily become very synergestic thanks to his 4. He summons clones for gods sake! Why cant they work like actual clones instead of glorified damage visuals? Make them copy Ash ability usage instead of being boring i-broke-my-arm-rotating-camera slow af afk button.

So how about making his kit rewarded for pressing all buttons instead of just 1? Here is my rework idea:

             

Passive:

  • NEW EFFECT: Finisher damage gains guaranteed Bleeding effect. Bleed damage is increased by 25%
  • No longer increases Bleed duration

This basically is intended to inform player that all of Ash' abilities cause slash. Also it makes it so that Rapier isnt needed for M4D Ash setup. Removed bonus bleed duration to compensate.

             

Shurikens:

  • Increased Shuriken count scalling with Ash level from 1/1/2/2 to 1/2/3/4
  • Reduced Mana Cost in half while in Stealth
  • Shurikens now deal Finisher damage just like the rest of his kit, "benefitting" from his passive
  • Enemies hit by Shurikens are debuffed for 6s, taking 25% more damage from True damage (finisher + bleed)
    • Effect does not stack
  • Hold ability to shoot all Shurikens onto a single closest enemy
  • Seeking Shuriken augment changes:
    • No longer strips Armor
    • NEW EFFECT: Shurikens bounce 2 times to nearby enemies within 10m. +1 additional Shuriken

This makes the Shuriken a better dps ability that is supposed to compliment his other abilities with the debuff.

             

Smoke Screen:

  • Smoke Shadow augment
    • When augment is equipped, Smoke Screen can be recast while it is active but stun duration is halved in Stealth.

I think this Ability is fine. Stealth is incredibly overpowered in this game and honestly, while others complain about it being the weakest one of the bunch, I like to call it the most fair one. Except for its Augment. It doesn't work really well because Ash cannot apply stealth to others unless he was unstealthed himself.

             

Teleport

  • Now has muuuch more generous lock onto targets
  • No longer starts Bladestorm sequence

For the love of god, PLEASE, make this ability usable in actual combat. Or cut range in half and make it work like in conclave where Ash can teleport where he wants. Also make it usable with his 4 for a change.. Speaking of which...

             

Bladestorm

  • Reworked from scratch
    • Costs 100 energy
    • Summon 4 clones for 60s that aid Ash in combat and follow him around
      • They can be killed - recast 4 to resummon
      • They melee attack nearby enemies if Ash is not afk, dealing weak damage
      • Every 4s, each of them teleports to nearby enemy and performs Finisher attack similar to current Bladestorm
        • They prioritize targets affected by Shuriken debuff
      • While not performing the Finisher, they copy Ash ability usage
        • All of the clones will cast Shurikens, at half damage, and debuff enemies when Ash uses 1. They prioritize undebuffed enemies.
        • Activating Smoke Screen will cause all Clones to Smoke Screen as well. This extends the range of Smoke Shadow (each clone counts as own median point of the AoE) and increases stun time on enemies per each smoke screen that hits enemy
        • Activating teleport resets Finisher CD to 0, causing clones to perform them back to back. This makes Bladestorm worth activating for Fatal Teleport builds
    • When activated, Rage meter appears, and will fill up as Ash and his clones deal damage
      • When meter is above 33%, Ash can hold 4 to enter marking mode
        • This Mark mode works like Garuda's 4 and will continuously deplete meter as it enlarges the area until there is no Rage left or Ash releases button
        • This sends out Clones onto marked enemies, performing 1 stronger finisher attack per enemy
        • While clones are attacking they are invulnerable to dmg
        • Ash can join them by pressing 4 again. This depletes Rage fully and speeds up Clones finisher attacks by 50%

There you have it. Ash that is meant to use all his abilities.

That said, I do believe that there are frames that need more love than him. As I said, Ash is not terrible. Stealth is "I am not a garbage frame" button, and his passive increases damage on the most powerful status proc in the game and these things alone make him B tier at least. All I needed on him was just more CC - ensnare works great - and I can solo most content with him and a weapon with guaranteed slash procs. I just wish he was fun tho, and that his kit was fluid. Comparing him to Nidus, Wisp or Harrow feels unfair.

Edited by TTraw
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9 hours ago, TTraw said:

While I disagree with people saying that Ash is garbage, I would be fool to say that he's a great designed warframe. He has imo one of the least synergestic kits in the entire game. He has 4 different abilities slapped together randomly that don't work with eachother and it feels like the only reason they were picked is because "he ninja bro". Where are synergies? Why would I use his abilities together? There's nothing that encourages pressing different buttons and in fact, all of his builds consist of pressing one ability of your choice.

Not only there are no synergies, there are thing that make no sense whatsoever, the antisynergies, so to speak. For a warframe that is focused purely on finisher damage and slash procs, all of which ignores armor, why would Ash feel the need for an ability to strip armor? This is beyond pointless.

Then we go onto his 3 + 4 "synergy". The only thing it does is make them unusable with eachother, because the moment this sequence ends Ash will just immediately die in any form of challenging content.

Not to mention his abilities are kind of weak. Shurikens are garbage damage source that works as an enemy position indicator. I also think the augment is garbage as well - you waste mod slot for something that other warframes can do in huge AoE without wasting modspace? Wtf? Why is this augment defended so much? His 3 is fun idea but poor execution, it seems harder to aim with than most of pinpoint accurate guns. I don't understand why am I supposed to desperately spam this ability button just so I can move from one position to another. His 4 deals good damage but it literally goes to enemy one by one, making it one of slowest killers out here even with attack speed riven. I am refusing to mention current aiming mechanics because this garbage shouldnt exist to begin with.

It feels rough because Ash could easily become very synergestic thanks to his 4. He summons clones for gods sake! Why cant they work like actual clones instead of glorified damage visuals? Make them copy Ash ability usage instead of being boring i-broke-my-arm-rotating-camera slow af afk button.

So how about making his kit rewarded for pressing all buttons instead of just 1? Here is my rework idea:

             

Passive:

  • NEW EFFECT: Finisher damage gains guaranteed Bleeding effect. Bleed damage is increased by 25%
  • No longer increases Bleed duration

This basically is intended to inform player that all of Ash' abilities cause slash. Also it makes it so that Rapier isnt needed for M4D Ash setup. Removed bonus bleed duration to compensate.

             

Shurikens:

  • Increased Shuriken count scalling with Ash level from 1/1/2/2 to 1/2/3/4
  • Reduced Mana Cost in half while in Stealth
  • Shurikens now deal Finisher damage just like the rest of his kit, "benefitting" from his passive
  • Enemies hit by Shurikens are debuffed for 6s, taking 25% more damage from True damage (finisher + bleed)
    • Effect does not stack
  • Hold ability to shoot all Shurikens onto a single closest enemy
  • Seeking Shuriken augment changes:
    • No longer strips Armor
    • NEW EFFECT: Shurikens bounce 2 times to nearby enemies within 10m. +1 additional Shuriken

This makes the Shuriken a better dps ability that is supposed to compliment his other abilities with the debuff.

             

Smoke Screen:

  • Smoke Shadow augment
    • When augment is equipped, Smoke Screen can be recast while it is active but stun duration is halved in Stealth.

I think this Ability is fine. Stealth is incredibly overpowered in this game and honestly, while others complain about it being the weakest one of the bunch, I like to call it the most fair one. Except for its Augment. It doesn't work really well because Ash cannot apply stealth to others unless he was unstealthed himself.

             

Teleport

  • Now has muuuch more generous lock onto targets
  • No longer starts Bladestorm sequence

For the love of god, PLEASE, make this ability usable in actual combat. Or cut range in half and make it work like in conclave where Ash can teleport where he wants. Also make it usable with his 4 for a change.. Speaking of which...

             

Bladestorm

  • Reworked from scratch
    • Costs 100 energy
    • Summon 4 clones for 60s that aid Ash in combat and follow him around
      • They can be killed - recast 4 to resummon
      • They melee attack nearby enemies if Ash is not afk, dealing weak damage
      • Every 4s, each of them teleports to nearby enemy and performs Finisher attack similar to current Bladestorm
        • They prioritize targets affected by Shuriken debuff
      • While not performing the Finisher, they copy Ash ability usage
        • All of the clones will cast Shurikens, at half damage, and debuff enemies when Ash uses 1. They prioritize undebuffed enemies.
        • Activating Smoke Screen will cause all Clones to Smoke Screen as well. This extends the range of Smoke Shadow (each clone counts as own median point of the AoE) and increases stun time on enemies per each smoke screen that hits enemy
        • Activating teleport resets Finisher CD to 0, causing clones to perform them back to back. This makes Bladestorm worth activating for Fatal Teleport builds
    • When activated, Rage meter appears, and will fill up as Ash and his clones deal damage
      • When meter is above 33%, Ash can hold 4 to enter marking mode
        • This Mark mode works like Garuda's 4 and will continuously deplete meter as it enlarges the area until there is no Rage left or Ash releases button
        • This sends out Clones onto marked enemies, performing 1 stronger finisher attack per enemy
        • While clones are attacking they are invulnerable to dmg
        • Ash can join them by pressing 4 again. This depletes Rage fully and speeds up Clones finisher attacks by 50%

There you have it. Ash that is meant to use all his abilities.

That said, I do believe that there are frames that need more love than him. As I said, Ash is not terrible. Stealth is "I am not a garbage frame" button, and his passive increases damage on the most powerful status proc in the game and these things alone make him B tier at least. All I needed on him was just more CC - ensnare works great - and I can solo most content with him and a weapon with guaranteed slash procs. I just wish he was fun tho, and that his kit was fluid. Comparing him to Nidus, Wisp or Harrow feels unfair.

All of this is quite nice (although I'd not be too keen on that Rage meter, it doesn't feel thematic, plus it re-adds clunk again).

I'd like to add, to Teleport and its finisher-stun (well, finisher-stun in general): Make it an actual DEBUFF with a timer, so it can't get animation-cancelled by other CC. I also very much agreed that making it free-aim, similar to Conclave, would work very nicely. As then the kit would be summarized like this:

* Shuriken -> AoE Nuke
* Smoke Screen -> Stealth
* Teleport -> Mobility + Single Target Nuke
* Bladestorm (needs a new name?) -> Kit-synergy Buff + AoE Nuke (with synergy on both other Nukes)

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13 hours ago, TTraw said:

While I disagree with people saying that Ash is garbage, I would be fool to say that he's a great designed warframe. He has imo one of the least synergestic kits in the entire game. He has 4 different abilities slapped together randomly that don't work with eachother and it feels like the only reason they were picked is because "he ninja bro". Where are synergies? Why would I use his abilities together? There's nothing that encourages pressing different buttons and in fact, all of his builds consist of pressing one ability of your choice.

Not only there are no synergies, there are thing that make no sense whatsoever, the antisynergies, so to speak. For a warframe that is focused purely on finisher damage and slash procs, all of which ignores armor, why would Ash feel the need for an ability to strip armor? This is beyond pointless.

Then we go onto his 3 + 4 "synergy". The only thing it does is make them unusable with eachother, because the moment this sequence ends Ash will just immediately die in any form of challenging content.

Not to mention his abilities are kind of weak. Shurikens are garbage damage source that works as an enemy position indicator. I also think the augment is garbage as well - you waste mod slot for something that other warframes can do in huge AoE without wasting modspace? Wtf? Why is this augment defended so much? His 3 is fun idea but poor execution, it seems harder to aim with than most of pinpoint accurate guns. I don't understand why am I supposed to desperately spam this ability button just so I can move from one position to another. His 4 deals good damage but it literally goes to enemy one by one, making it one of slowest killers out here even with attack speed riven. I am refusing to mention current aiming mechanics because this garbage shouldnt exist to begin with.

Yh Ash is not "garbage" however he does need some work and yes he so called synergy isn`t synergy.

  • The 3rd and 4th synergy is just what bs use to be and like you said it locks you out of using the ability.
  • His 2nd and 4th synergy is more like a requirement since no one is going to use bs without being invis 1st to use less energy.

That`s it two "synergies" that don`t improve Ash`s abilities.

Agreed the augment is only good against high level grinner, anywhere else is rubbish and by the evidence I have given it`s a bandade mod same for his teleport.

And the marking mechanic completable ruins his bs with over 10 issues it has. Idk if you seen it, but on this post I have also linked my version of a revisit to Ash (above the Ash picture). If you can tell me you`re full opinion about my revisit to Ash I'll do the same to you.

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WOW the OP must be a serious Ash main. Ash Prime was the very first prime that I got in Warframe.

I loved how good Ash was, then I came to know how slow he is.

He is suitable only in Solo. I was killing enemies faster with weapons than his abilities. (say for Gauss)

So you know I wasn't complaining like you, instead I just stopped using him. Not just me a lot and lot of people just stopped using him. I barely see Ash in a pub squad.

Do you think DE will really spend time on these reworks? They have a butt load of targets to be achieved and projects left as the veterans are complaining on the warframe content. They are afraid to lose players who have reached the end content and waiting for next release.

Loads of bugs and fixes are not attended yet, I doubt if they will even consider doing some changes like this. 

Good example is, here you are requesting for big change and all we got was his 4th ability's correction.

Warframe needs a very big fix IMO. 

My only way of enjoying warframe is not sticking(main) to 1 frame.

 

PS: the only time I use him now-a-days is to complete riven challenge "kill enemies with finisher"

Happy day Tenno!

 

Edited by (PSN)Muralivilla
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On 2020-12-28 at 6:22 PM, (PSN)Muralivilla said:

-snip-

I am and the funny thing is I don`t play him like everyone else does, I play him like I play DMC, Ninja Gaiden and Darksiders and Ash was also my first prime frame.

Yes DE will since they mentioned that they would one last year and recently on the devstream this year and on Feb 2018 DE looked over five warframes all at once, just because ppl tell me DE isn`t going to do something doesn`t mean I'm going to stop, their is a chance DE will take my point into consideration. Pabalo improved Nezha and Oberon and they ended up being great so if that can happen to them then it can happen to Ash so I'm not giving in. BTW if your interested, if you look at the link above the picture, you will see my version of a revisit to Ash. Take a look and tell me what you think, since you use to like Ash you might like what you read and pay attention on how  popular the post is.

Edited by (PSN)Vexx757
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2 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

wait didn't they revisit ash already or twice even ?

frames they should really look at would be frost & loki to name a couple

Loki's perfect . 
Doesn't need to be retouched .

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3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

No Warframe is perfect. Nidus and Nezha are close, but still - all Warframes can need polish/QoL/revisits/reworks to some degree.

Right for example Ash is not perfect in my eyes coz of the teleport bug he has but someone can put on it`s augment (which most ppl do) and now say Ash is perfect. One wants the issue fixed while the other wants to slap a bandade on it and not address the issue. 

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