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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


(PSN)Vexx757
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Poestis:

Like I always say Ash is fine.  Half the time I am running Ash and out damaging and killing everything before most of the other team catches up to me in Lich missions or Steel Path or whatever.. I think Ash just requires the right equipment/mods to get the job done.  Yeah, they made him simple yet complicated with energy retention.

Ash is fine!? Let me bet, if I ask you that Vauban was fine before his "small" rework you will also say that he was fine, right? I mean it's the same situation. Ash is very good in killing and Vauban was/ is good in CC (well he was/is actually the best at what he does. Even Saryn and Mesa start running, if he starts throwing his balls.). But in the end did Vauban still got his deserved rework. But why? Did DE have to much money? Was it gods decision?? Or was there a differnt big problem??? I'm sure that you already know the answer, because back then Vauban had just two useful abilities: Bastille (<. it needed an augment!) and Vortex. There was also the problem, that Vaubans kit was very outdated compared to newer frames who are good at many things and are excelent in one thing, while Vauban was just good at CC and bad in everthing else.

Ash is now just in the same situation. The only differnce is that Ash has the "luck" to fit into the meta and that Ash was never the best at what he does. Banshee has the higher dps, Saryn/ Mesa are better in killing lots of weak enemies at once and almost every frame is tankier than him. Even his invisibility is overshadowed by Octavia,Ivara, Loki and every frame with the bronco augment and arcane trickery. But before I talk to much allow me to explain, why Ash has actually only one useful ability.

Shuriken <- useless

Spoiler
vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Poestis:

Changes to Shuriken, it's already OP with the Augment Seeking Shuriken stripping all Armor, I like that it hits multi targets and AUTO homes.  I know it's not much without the Augment but I wouldn't even use a build without the Augment.  I usually only throw it at Heavy Gunners or Nox's who have the most Armor.  I mean if Seeking Shuriken Augment, made the ability how it is now with armor stripping, and WITHOUT the augment the ability did all that slow crowd control sort of stuff you mentioned then It would be balanced.

Sorry, but I have to qoute myself from the past.

Am 14.8.2020 um 10:23 schrieb ES-Flinter:

Tom Cruise What GIF

First, third and his fourth skil ignore armor. His passive increase the damage of slash-procs which also ignore armor. Why should an Ash player care about armour, if it's cleverer to just ignore it?

Sorry for off-topic.

I think I don't have to explain anymore, why the augment is useless. But what is about it's normal form? If I'm not mistaken it's the strongest first ability ingame (~14k damage or something like that, if both shurikens inflict a headshoot). Sure the damage is high, but why wasting 25 energy on two shuriken for maybe 14k damage instead of spending 24 (12 if invisibel) energy for much more damage (30k or something like that)?

Smokebomb  <-useful, but the weakest ability of it's kind

Spoiler
  • Why is it the weakest invisibility-ability ingame
    • Lokis last much longer
    • Ivaras is endless and gives her extra loot (but it doesn't allow her to run)
    • Octavias last longer, is recastable and it can make her alias invisbel, too.
  • "Benefits" of smokebomb over the others: 
    • it stuns the enemies. But only for a short time and the enemies aren't opened for finishers
    • cost less energy. Doesn't make a differnce in times of endless energy
    • faster animation speed. Wow, it's not like that there's an ~ one second window before the enemies can see you, if the invisibility is gone.

Teleport <- useless& weak

Spoiler
  • why is it useless:
    • it's glitchy. Enemies aren't stunned everytime
    • long animation after teleporting. Even a rhinos is faster than Ashs teleporting animation.
    • doesn't work as an oh-**** button, because Ash is invisbel. And if someone is invisbel he shouldn't get into situation like these, except he does a mistake.
      • except someone is using a tank build, but that doesn't count, because this build is much weaker than the two others. -> no 700% melee stealth multipler and invisbility is theoretical 100% damage mitgation
  • Why is it weak:
    • Nova, Wisp and Nezha don't need a target to teleport.
    • They all don't have a long animation after the teleportation.
  • Still better than loki teleport

Bladestorm <- useless& weak in it's own kind

Spoiler
  • Why is it useless:
    • Other frames kills faster
    • My melee weapon is faster at killing
    • You melee weapon is faster at killing
  • Why is weak in it's own kind:
    • It's just super ineffective, but the damage it does is A+++.

Other problems

  • Tanky stats for a stealth character.
    • You already mentioned that there is a mod needed to compensate his energy problems.
    • No abilities which help him survive.
      • except smokebomb, but it gives 100% damage mitgation
  • pseudo-exilus weapon.
    • To get the most out of it someone has to sacrifice his melee weapon or he keeps his melee weapon for a weaker Bs.

 

Not sure if I have forgotten the one or other thing, but I think that's enough to explain why Ash isn't fine. He just works.

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2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Ash is fine!? Let me bet, if I ask you that Vauban was fine before his "small" rework you will also say that he was fine, right? I mean it's the same situation. Ash is very good in killing and Vauban was/ is good in CC (well he was/is actually the best at what he does. Even Saryn and Mesa start running, if he starts throwing his balls.). But in the end did Vauban still got his deserved rework. But why? Did DE have to much money? Was it gods decision?? Or was there a differnt big problem??? I'm sure that you already know the answer, because back then Vauban had just two useful abilities: Bastille (<. it needed an augment!) and Vortex. There was also the problem, that Vaubans kit was very outdated compared to newer frames who are good at many things and are excelent in one thing, while Vauban was just good at CC and bad in everthing else.

Ash is now just in the same situation. The only differnce is that Ash has the "luck" to fit into the meta and that Ash was never the best at what he does. Banshee has the higher dps, Saryn/ Mesa are better in killing lots of weak enemies at once and almost every frame is tankier than him. Even his invisibility is overshadowed by Octavia,Ivara, Loki and every frame with the bronco augment and arcane trickery. But before I talk to much allow me to explain, why Ash has actually only one useful ability.

Shuriken <- useless

  Reveal hidden contents

Sorry, but I have to qoute myself from the past.

I think I don't have to explain anymore, why the augment is useless. But what is about it's normal form? If I'm not mistaken it's the strongest first ability ingame (~14k damage or something like that, if both shurikens inflict a headshoot). Sure the damage is high, but why wasting 25 energy on two shuriken for maybe 14k damage instead of spending 24 (12 if invisibel) energy for much more damage (30k or something like that)?

Smokebomb  <-useful, but the weakest ability of it's kind

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Why is it the weakest invisibility-ability ingame
    • Lokis last much longer
    • Ivaras is endless and gives her extra loot (but it doesn't allow her to run)
    • Octavias last longer, is recastable and it can make her alias invisbel, too.
  • "Benefits" of smokebomb over the others: 
    • it stuns the enemies. But only for a short time and the enemies aren't opened for finishers
    • cost less energy. Doesn't make a differnce in times of endless energy
    • faster animation speed. Wow, it's not like that there's an ~ one second window before the enemies can see you, if the invisibility is gone.

Teleport <- useless& weak

  Reveal hidden contents
  • why is it useless:
    • it's glitchy. Enemies aren't stunned everytime
    • long animation after teleporting. Even a rhinos is faster than Ashs teleporting animation.
    • doesn't work as an oh-**** button, because Ash is invisbel. And if someone is invisbel he shouldn't get into situation like these, except he does a mistake.
      • except someone is using a tank build, but that doesn't count, because this build is much weaker than the two others. -> no 700% melee stealth multipler and invisbility is theoretical 100% damage mitgation
  • Why is it weak:
    • Nova, Wisp and Nezha don't need a target to teleport.
    • They all don't have a long animation after the teleportation.
  • Still better than loki teleport

Bladestorm <- useless& weak in it's own kind

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Why is it useless:
    • Other frames kills faster
    • My melee weapon is faster at killing
    • You melee weapon is faster at killing
  • Why is weak in it's own kind:
    • It's just super ineffective, but the damage it does is A+++.

Other problems

  • Tanky stats for a stealth character.
    • You already mentioned that there is a mod needed to compensate his energy problems.
    • No abilities which help him survive.
      • except smokebomb, but it gives 100% damage mitgation
  • pseudo-exilus weapon.
    • To get the most out of it someone has to sacrifice his melee weapon or he keeps his melee weapon for a weaker Bs.

 

Not sure if I have forgotten the one or other thing, but I think that's enough to explain why Ash isn't fine. He just works.

Let me ask you this .

Would you say Octavia is in a bad spot because people rarely see her? She is one of the best frames all around but not played as much because of the effort put into playing her. Overall ash is fine in terms of damage output synergies and more. A small qol touch up would be nice but a full rework? It’s not necessary at all. Regardless you mention vauban and to date he’s still not played as much as before if only slightly more as I still see the aforementioned top frames more then anything. Even so the above mentioned reworks suggested by our good Op is overkill in hopes that he can compete with Saryn etc easily (he can just requires <effort> ) and on top of that the heinous amount of spamming he does with these threads in game and on forum is problematic and annoying to say the least 

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If you can kill whole rooms with your melee weapons faster than Bladestorm, something's wrong either with the way you use it or its setup. Even all throughout Steel Path it was super easy to complete it with Ash within 2 days of its release

He's my most used frame and completely disagree with changing their mechanics (but numbers buff yes/ storm speed cap). 2 for the invis, well that's a given. His 1 allows for strip builds and his 3 allows for some teleport shenanigans. If anything, only agree with is that using 3 with the 4 is indeed buggy.

Edited by seventhwalker
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25 minutes ago, seventhwalker said:

If you can kill whole rooms with your melee weapons faster than Bladestorm, something's wrong either with the way you use it or its setup. Even all throughout Steel Path it was super easy to complete it with Ash within 2 days of its release

He's my most used frame and completely disagree with changing their mechanics (but numbers buff yes). 2 for the invis, well that's a given. His 1 allows for strip builds and his 3 allows for some teleport shenanigans. If anything, only agree with is that using 3 with the 4 is indeed buggy.

I have to ask how do you manage  excavations on steel path with ash those are quite tough for me 

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Normally i don't use ash for Exca, CC/defense frames for defensive stages. Though yes, I can solo exca in SP with Ash with a CC specter for backup. Being invis all the time has its drawbacks, as enemies will concentrate on the excavator first, just need something for them to fire at 

Edited by seventhwalker
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On 2020-08-07 at 7:49 PM, Azamagon said:

As promised, here's the thorough review:

All abilities castable on zipline - Yes, as should most abilities (but in Ash's case, none of them make sense to be restricted)

Shuriken:

1) One hit kill = Stealth kill - Agreed on this. I would even go further and say: If Shuriken's current bleed damage is enough to kill them, all the bleed damage is done instantly (and this can contribute to its stealthy kills too). This "bleed-burst" can occur retroactively too, making it a nice "sudden death" kind of buffer you add on to enemies, if you attack them quickly that is. It would tie into his bleed-passive really nicely as well.

It could potentially cause the same bleed-burst effect for Bladestorm's bleed, (or ANY bleed?) if Shuriken's bleed is on the enemy. That'd really give Shuriken a nice feature on it that goes a long way to making it have useful utility, both in early game and lategame.

2) Holdcast = I'd simplify it greatly: Just make it throw your shuriken(s) straight forward. Aside from extra flightspeed, I'd say no other extra bonuses to it. No crits or stuff like that, the ability to use it how you want (and go for manual headshots) is more than enough, imo.

3) Slowdown based on enemy's healthloss = I like it! Good mid/lategame utility.

4) Combo bonus = Nah, I would say that's unnecessary.
 

Smoke Screen:

1) Cast stun buffed to 4 seconds - Imo, not necessary (besides, to be nitpicky and technical, it's not really a stun, it's a stagger - the game is really unclear in regards to the various CC-types in the game, so it's totally understandable) The brief stun is enough to make it the (imo) best "into the fray" stealth ability in the game

2) Lingering smoke cloud - Yes, a lingering smoke cloud with some nice effects on it would be swell. Often suggested, since it makes so much sense. However, I don't agreed with the stun and damage-amp (already getting stealth-melee-bonus, no need to make his defensive tool further offensive), I think it should have these effects:

  • Enemies outside of the cloud cannot see past it, they have to get inside
  • Enemies can only see (with limitted range) stuff which is inside the cloud, when they are inside the cloud themselves
  • Enemies struck by the initial stun and enemies who remain inside the cloud have massively reduced accuracy (and maybe a SLIGHT slowdown effect?). This debuff only lasts a few seconds (like 3 or so - but is moddable with Duration), but is refreshed every second an enemy is inside the cloud.
  • Same as you suggested, Ash's stealth-duration does not drop until he leaves the cloud.

3) Ally visuals when they're inside the cloud - Yeah, this would be needed

4) Removed muffled sound - Yes please!

5) Ash stealthed = Bladestorm clones stealthed - This just makes sense, yes please!


Teleport:

1) Holdcast = indicator - Eh, I feel that's nice, but not enough. I'd prefer the holdcast to be a freeaim teleportation, where he teleports forward as far as its range allows him (or, onto the surface/target he is aiming at, ofc)

2) Wallhand teleport - Well, just to point something out here: This would only make sense if you said that could teleport to walls (which, btw, freeaim teleportation would allow him to). You only mentioned that he can teleport to anything scannable, and walls aren't scannable, hehe. But yes, teleporting to walls to wallcling for a short duration is a clear yes in my book!

3) Teleport through windows - Yeah, makes sense.

4) Teleport to enemies midair = Yes, I don't understand why this doesn't work. As for the "melee after keeps him in the air", well, that should be manually doable if you could aimglide anytime during/after the cast.

5) Enemy under a stun, they can still be opened up for a finisher - This is a major gripe I have with opening to finishers in general. And the problem lays in the mechanics of CC and such. I think a way to make this work could be that whenever you do a "finisher-opening stun" (not just with Teleport), that this should cause a visual DEBUFF on them (think like a status-proc), which lasts for a few seconds. Something like how the Parazon works, you know? I think could go a long way to fix the frontal/rear finisher issue overall.

6) Teleport to allies through walls if you see them - Yes please.

7) Dargyn finisher - Hah, yes, that would be cool!

8-) Teleport to enemy behind cover =  teleport behind, not above - Urgh, yes please. Quite annoying how it is at the moment.

9) Front finishers on moas and infested enemies - Oof, you're reminding me of this MASSIVE melee document I'm doing at the moment: Many enemies don't have certain finishers allowed onto them, but this depends not only on the enemy-type, it also depends on the WEAPON (because they exist on some enemies for some weapons!). Honestly, I can't believe DE have gone up to a Melee 3.0, yet melee is VERY, VERY INCOMPLETE! That document is coming soon - if you're interested I'll tag you for it if you want?

 

Bladestorm:

First of all, I agreed with basicly all of the issues you have listed. However, the desecration issue though, that's incorrect - the bodies are still "there", just invisible. Many people miss this though.

As for the fixes:

1) Cast = Instant activation - Yes, I can agreed with this. The swiping marking mechanic is just nauseous, as you already pointed out. So, instant cast for effect is great

2) Tap = Send you and clones (+tap again to leave). Hold = Only clones - I would reverse this, personally (Tap = Clones only. Hold = Ash+Clones, or if you wanna join your clones midcast). Ash joining in is more niched than using clones only.

3) Marked enemies can be killed by others - Not sure about this, that caused a LOT of issues with Ash falling through the world when this was allowed (if I'm recalling correctly). If it can be done without bugs, then sure.

4) No limit to how many enemies he can kill within the 20m radius of the enemy he`s aiming at - Ummm, no. That's overpowering the ability, imo. In fact, (as I've mentioned early) keeping it as a ranged ability while making it instant cast as well... that's a recipe for spamming overpoweredness. Imo, it should be a radial cast (like Avalanche, Rhino Stomp etc), with limitted targets affectable (prioritizing the closest ones first), due to the strength of the ability.

5) On deactivation / ending, Ash teleports back to his original position - Yes! I dunno why this was changed in the first place, it's really disorienting.

6) Smoke Screen + Bladestorm = Enemies unable to detect Ash or enemies killed when in close proximity - Yeah, that'd be neat.

7) Sentinel + Vaccuumed loot visually disappears during the effect - Yes please, it's quite some obscuration with how it is at the moment.

8-) Indicator showing number of enemies affected - Agreed. Wether your suggestion (casting on a target and affects it and enemies near the first one) or mine (casting marks enemies nearby Ash), showing number of enemies, rather than number of marks, is more informative, no doubt!

9) Sliding before activating will increase the animation and clones` attack speed by 20% - No. Just... why? That's so incredibly random

 

Synergies:

1) If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear - I guess? Do you mean KILLING with abilities, or it just makes old corpses go "poof" when you cast? Care to explain?

2) The energy cost will also be cut down by half - No. That's the forced kind of synergy I hate.

3) If you teleport to an enemy while you are invisible you will stun enemies around you and increase the smoke cloud duration to 15 seconds - No. That's very forced synergy, I don't like it at all, sorry.

4) Shuriken shows enemy health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks - This one I kinda like, but you don't need to make this a synergy, just expand it as an effect of Shuriken, like this -> Shuriken shows the silhouette of affected enemies through walls + Teleport is allowed to teleport to any target you can see through walls. Then it's just a natural synergy between the two abilities.

5) Shuriken + Blade Storm damage synergy - As you suggested it, no thanks. That's too forced for my taste. What I suggested on Shuriken (i.e. when Shuriken is affecting an enemy, bleeding effects (or at least Shuriken's and Bladestorm's) will instantly deal all of their remaining damage if it's enough to kill the enemy) gives them a more natural damage-esque synergy without amping their actual damage.

 

------------------------------------------

There ya go!
I'd actually like to show my list of changes I'd like to see to his skills (some of which are the same as yours):

Shuriken

  • Slows enemies based on their healthstate
  • Shows enemy silhouettes through walls
  • Will deal its bleeddamage instantly to enemies, whenever the remaining bleeddamage is enough to kill them. If Shuriken is active on an enemy, it could (at least) also extend this bleed-burst to Bladestorm too (ANY slash would likely be too strong)!
  • Killing with Shuriken is considered a stealthkill (including with the bleed-burst if that occurs on the initial hit)
  • Augment: Can also remove shields if the enemy has no armor (this should be a thing for all armor-removal augments etc, imo)

Smoke Screen

  • Enemies staggered by the initial cast receive a debuff which grealty reduces their accuracy, and slightly reduces their movement speed (NOT their attackspeed) for 3 or so seconds. Accuracy/slowdown is moddable with Strength mods (and they have pretty early caps), debuff duration is affected by Duration mods.
  • Casting the ability midduration causes Ash to leave invisibility, but this allows him to recast the ability right afterwards
  • Leaves a cloud behind on cast. This cloud has the following properties:
    • Max 3 clouds can exist at a time (if there's two different Ash players, they can have 3 each, just to clarify)
    • Enemies cannot see past the cloud if they are outside of it.
    • Enemies inside the cloud have very limitted vision range, and are continously having the accuracy/slowdown debuff reapplied to them.
    • Ash's stealth duration doesn't start ticking down off until he leaves the cloud. Can be paused by reenterring.
    • Cloud lasts 6 seconds at base (moddable with Duration)
  • Energycost increased to 50, due to the added cloud and its extra effects
  • Augment: Now applies the stealth to allies if they are within the initial cast range OR if they walk into the lingering smoke cloud (massive QoL).

Teleport

  • Tapcast = Teleport to a target (ally, object, enemy - you name it). This teleportation can take your through walls, if you see their silhouette (Adds natural Shuriken-synergy, similar to your suggestion)
  • Holdcast = Teleport freely, up to your max range. This can NOT pass through walls/objects etc.
  • If you holdcast it and land on a wall, you'll automatically cling to the wall for a few seconds. Simply tap the aim button to let go.
  • On teleportation (both Tap and Hold), you become invisible for 1.5 seconds (moddable with Duration, cannot go below 1 second). This invisibility pauses your Smoke Screen's invisiblity duration!
  • On teleportation (both Tap and Hold), you open up all enemies to finishers in a 3 meter radius (moddable with Range) around you at your landing location.

Bladestorm

  • Upon cast, it now instantly marks up to X (say 12?) amount of enemies in a Z (say 20?) meter radius around Ash. Prioritizes the closest enemies. Targetting radius is moddable with Range. POTENTIALLY, the number of enemies it affects could be affected by Duration (but never goes below 8)?
  • Tapcast = You only send in the two clones to kill the marked enemies.
  • Holdcast = Send the two clones AND have Ash join as well.
    • If you tapcasted to only send in the clones, you can join them by holdcasting later as well (as long as there are enemies to attack). This join-in should probably have a limitted distance though (like, 50 meters (?), affected by Range)
  • All enemies marked on cast get all 3 marks on them each, meaning up to 3 Bladetorm-attacks will be done on each affected enemy.
    • However, the UI will now only show how many ENEMIES are affected, not how many MARKS are applied.
  • Energycost is now a set 100.
  • Could get a little casting animation, like some cliché "jutsu" handsign(s). It would still allow movement upon casting, but it would interrupt reloading etc.
  • As mentioned on Shuriken: If Shuriken's bleed is active on an enemy, it will instantly deal all of its and Bladestorm's bleed damage on that enemy, whenever these two abilities' remaining bleeddamage is enough to kill that enemy!
  • QoL: Sentinel and loot will visually disappear when Ash is joining the Bladestorm.
  • QoL: If you join the attack with Ash, he will land again where he cast to join in.

So @(PS4)Vexx757, would you like to expand the discussion from this^ response of mine?

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I dont generally frequent the forums but the OP saw me using ash in game and asked me to look in so here I am.

So to the subject and my opinions.

Firstly I use Ash regularly and the way I use/play him he holds his own at high levels no problem, I completed 90% of steel path with him so no I dont think he is broken or useless.

Thats not to say I dont think he can be improved.

1st ability could do with a bit more damage

2nd ability is to short duration and I think the smoke screen suggested would be a great idea.

3rd ability I think only needs aesthetic improvements otherwise works great. 

4th ability, Yeah this needs work. The first thing that needs to be fixed is getting stuck in walls etc when you teleport into a BS. Its not as common as it used to be but its still a pain in the butt when it happens.

Activation is the other thing and Although I understand why DE went the way they did with it from the old BS it is now to slow.

Other frames can nuke much faster than Ash can mark and kill.

I think one solution to this is the instantly activated cone of view idea suggested kind of like Mesa’s 4th.

The other option would be to keep the mechanic as is but get rid of the 3 strike system and just go to max power for each mark.

Personally I would prefer the 2nd option but we will see.

Either way I love Ash and if you are using him to stay invisible you are using him wrong. Use a Loki or Ivara for that.

Ash is a killer.

 

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On 2020-08-21 at 6:14 PM, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Let me ask you this .

Would you say Octavia is in a bad spot because people rarely see her? She is one of the best frames all around but not played as much because of the effort put into playing her. Overall ash is fine in terms of damage output synergies and more. A small qol touch up would be nice but a full rework? It’s not necessary at all. Regardless you mention vauban and to date he’s still not played as much as before if only slightly more as I still see the aforementioned top frames more then anything. Even so the above mentioned reworks suggested by our good Op is overkill in hopes that he can compete with Saryn etc easily (he can just requires <effort> ) and on top of that the heinous amount of spamming he does with these threads in game and on forum is problematic and annoying to say the least 

Well put, and pretty much would have been my response too.

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En 2/1/2020 a las 16:18, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

As much as Ash is my main frame, he needs to be looked at again.

The 1st ability is only good with its augment. Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad, the 2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it, the 3rd ability has potential to be so much better just of the concept of teleportation alone and the 4th ability is terrible when it comes to activation speed, it`s too slow and other ppl can take your kills (even in low levels) and even more things that make it bad.

Overall Ash is a contradiction to what DE wants ppl to do in this game.... PLAY AS A TEAM, that's why he needs to be looked at again and If I were to give him a re-visit, this is what I would do;

Ash:

·       All abilities can be cast while on ziplines.

 

1st Ability: Shuriken

  Revelar contenido oculto

·       If an enemy is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.

·       Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what crit damage mods you have equipped on your melee weapon, also headshots will do more damage.

·       The held version will have increased flight speed.

·       The more health the enemy loses, the slower the enemy moves when bleeding out.

·       When the enemy stops bleeding, it will go back to its normal movement speed.

·       If you hit the same enemy that was affected before, it will go back to the same slow speed and will keep getting slower until it`s lifeless.

·       It has a 1 second combo window. The more you use the ability, the more damage it does, the less energy it takes.

·       The built-up damage multi from spamming it can affect the held version of shuriken.

·       The held version works like the way Nazha`s 2nd ability does. Quick cast, straight path and more damage.

·       The held version can pause the 1 sec combo duration drain indicator so that you have time to get the full damage out of it but the decreased energy won`t carry over to it.

·       Depending on the damage built up from the combo multiplayer will determine the increase of critical damage from the held version, if high enough it can reach red crits.

1

This makes Ash more strategic by giving a choice of who he wants to kill and makes him better at killing single target enemies.

 

2nd Ability: Smoke Screen

  Revelar contenido oculto

·       Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.

·       The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.

·       The smoke cloud has a 5m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will have a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage. If allies are in the cloud they cannot be targeted by enemies.

·       The 4sec stun also affects osprays by them visually float down to the ground before recovering.

·       If Ash stays in the cloud the duration won`t start until either he leaves the cloud or the cloud duration runs out.

·       Allies that are in the cloud are visually translucent showing as a indicator that they are unseen by enemies.

·       All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.

·       When Ash is invisible, the apparitions from bs are also invisible.

·       Remove muffled sound while invisible.

 

There are now new ways you can use this ability;

·       You can use it next to a dangerously high-levelled enemy to stun it and kill it with ease.

·       You can use it to block enemies in doorways. Since the smoke affect duration is 6 seconds and the smoke lasts 10 seconds, enemies will be stuck for a total of 12 seconds.

·       You can protect your allies from enemies` sight with smoke cloud.

·       If you mod for less duration and more range, it will turn it into a better cc ability.

4

These improvement makes this ability strategic and you have more than one way to use the ability.

 

3rd Ability: Teleport

  Revelar contenido oculto

·       Holding the ability will show an indicator of where he can teleport to from the radical.

·       Teleporting to a wall will make ash hang to the wall for 10 seconds if you decide to grab onto the wall. Releasing the grab button will still keep Ash onto the wall unless he jumps off the wall or the duration runs out.

·       Not only it can teleport to anything with a health bar, it can also teleport to anything that can be scanned.

·       You can teleport through windows if there are allies, npcs, enemies, objects with a health bar or is scannable objects on the other side of it.

·       You are able to teleport to enemies that are in the air.

·       After teleporting in the air, performing melee attacks will keep him in the air.

·       Even if the enemy is under a stun, they can still be opened up for a finisher.

·       When teleporting to enemies with the held version, enemies won`t detect you when in close proximity and it won`t open enemy to finishers.

·       If you can see allies through walls, Ash can teleport to them.

·       The cast speed of the held version is half a second.

·       He can teleport to dargyns and do an instant finisher on the enemy flying it to take it over.

·       If he targets an enemy behind cover, he will teleport behind it for a finisher instead of just standing above them.

·       He can preform front finishers on moas and infested enemies.

2

These tweaks Ash`s 3rd ability will improve his teleporting abilities and gives him the option from focus enemy targeting to teleporting anywhere with less limitations.

 

Before I get into bs here are the current problems with bs;

  Revelar contenido oculto

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

 

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

 

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

 

·       If you want the full damage of bs, you have to mark the enemies three times which will slow you down or  makes you stationary (if you want to do it quickly) to mark enemies with three marks. In low-level missions, your energy will be refunded back to you if you over mark and in high levels you obviously going to want the full damage of it so there is absolutely no point in having to choose the amount of damage you want to dish out. With the old bs, you had the full damage regardless.

 

·       Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.

 

·       The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.

 

·       Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.

 

·       Because of the synergy between his 2nd & 4th ability, you are forced to mod for duration to benefit from using less energy for bs since most people are not going to use bs while it`s taking more energy.

 

·       Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)

 

·       Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.

 

·       When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.

 

·       Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.

 

·       Because of the way it works, it makes shuriken not favoured in use due to the amount of energy bs costs when modding and how much damage it does and how quick enemies will be killed when activated. This make some people use bs over shuriken.

 

·       The marking mechanic makes the ability ineffective in close-quarter, tight spaces which is what  the majority of the tilesets are, this makes the ability less effective and mostly useless even more so it a team.

 

·       You can`t pick and choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

 

Reasons;

· Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.

· You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.

· You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.

· If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.

· Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

9

 

4th Ability: Blade Storm

  Revelar contenido oculto

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the 20m radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       On deactivation or when blade storm ends whole in the animation, Ash teleports back to the position where he activated it.

·       While his 2nd ability is active enemies won`t be able to detect Ash or enemies killed when in close proximity.

·       You sentinel will not only be invulnerable but will also visually disappear while in the animation, this also including pickups from vacuum.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

·       Sliding before activating will increase the animation and clones` attack speed by 20%.

1

Why this logically makes blade storm better;

 

·       Ash`s bs is still slow when it comes to dps however, at lease because it`s an instant activation, he will at least get to the enemies 1st before any other frame`s damage ability does.

·       The current bs we have now made him absolutely useless in a team but with my changes, at least in a high-level mission he can kill more efficiently which in turn make the team less likely to get downed.

·       The choice of whether you want to be in the animations or not is much easier to pull off. The way it is now, if you use bs and you want to join the animation, but you have no energy you can’t join it even through it`s not meant to cost any energy to do so.

·       The indicator lets you know when you can use bs again.

·       Other people can take his kills while bs is still active which won`t matter coz of the amount of enemies he can kill.

 

Since Ash doesn`t have any synergy (or any good ones) here are some that will improve his performance;

Synergies

  Revelar contenido oculto

Smoke Screen + Shuriken, Teleport & Blade Storm:

·       If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear.

·       The energy cost will also be cut down by half.

·       If you teleport to an enemy while you are invisible you will stun enemies around you and increase the smoke cloud duration to 15 seconds.

 

Shuriken + Teleport:

·       Using the 1st ability on an enemy will show their health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks.

 

Shuriken + Blade Storm:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks, your damage will increase over time with no limit.

·       Enemies need to be alive and bleeding from the 1st ability for bs to build up damage.

·       If no enemies are affected by slash, you will have five seconds before the damage is lost.

·       If the five seconds is up, the stored-up damage will decay overtime instead of disappearing completely.

·       There will be an indicator showing the amount of damage you are accumulating and the amount of time you have left.

·       If you get downed, the timer won`t start until you are revived.

3

There are some issues with Ash that need to be fixed

  Revelar contenido oculto

·      While using blade storm, pickups are attached to Ash`s body and get in the way visually.

·      When bs ends, the camera is fixed in one place and doesn’t move with Ash.

·       Make Ash consistently be able to teleport in and out of the same grates/fan instead of just one direction.

·       Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Sometimes the visuals of the clones change from a hologram, original ash and ash prime look, make the “clones” look like whatever variant your using (like wukong`s 1st ability).

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead it teleports him in a different location.

1

At the time ash was ranked the number 1 favourite warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Now he is one of the least played warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

Proof:

Mogamu`s vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLohAFoWQc

Life of rio`s vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJRx6oTxF1Y

 

My re-visit to Ash makes him strategic in missions, more effective in stealth gameplay, gives him better and useful synergies, makes him more of an efficient killer in the art of assassination and makes him have a use in a team.

If you want a visual understanding of how some of my ideas can be implemented check out page 7.

Below is a list of players that support my idea of Blade Storm and wanted to see this happen. I have gathered these names by speaking to people on the mic when I’m in missions. (PS4 players) This has been an ongoing process since August 2017.(I stopped around feb 2018) I know you won`t read all of this but the point is to show how serious I am about my ideas and for Ash to get a revisit.

  Revelar contenido oculto

XXBigfarmerXX

Music_life_123

Braysoul

agranator

Honeybackninja

Faimpower88

Bigtonkatruck21

Faiz2000a

Kyuubi_Naruto10

Chambles

James30032303

Emos_East

Mystic form

Pho_shizzle69

WHATSUP294

NOTlesnoto

Rorshanck

HALOCREEPER749

Ice Man_FG80

Darkshadow120552

Zaykiller20

jms_interiors

stuntmonkios-jnr

maskedviper11

WHITE_MOON2

Buck_SHOT56789

Phirestorm12

xXCarbon129Xx

HavocMonkeys

KirbyGirl2000

reese490

KingOfMiami25

Insomniacmob

brcl671

M4T848R1X

Treyshawnkilla23

ZXTER_RUDENT

zeywardDaGreat

StreeBall51

UNKNOWN_GAMER77

DaLaminite

The_Duch99

Never3nder_87

Roses152

Zurin

nightsfallen

scorched_lungs

Rook1Castle

YuvalFrankel12

Jodhuabeaud

kingIshyyYt

X_Smartyroyal_X

huhicanttink457

LarxxinEnrag

jaygates3

True_Rippers_Tvd

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NextBigThing1738

bEON1_ _

sivbrood

Camrocm8

Deadshot199582

Saridman

Ruck7825

Xristo_CRT7

Slade99998000

drakenmage

lrunno

IkronosTitan

ShameNi99a

Hintero

tamur26

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lil_scwub

CREPUSCULER

Ctrl-khaos

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Ay_Tip

stunningwolf

DubSkrill

YJgeezus

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Red-Clone

Fammilyguy

ajcoolman455

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XenoSamus

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Sahovah

donavanbartley21

dylanman242

awosniak66

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Darkdeimos11

Lightbeest

Ohstyla_

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BlackTony_92

Blitzser4

Alcatraz1437

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DragonSlayer3397

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lolkid654

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crazycocmonkey

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GrimmWolfen

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Momoboy671

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JM-David

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Friztfrost

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xl-1995

wooby84

Honor_o

Antocast

Sour_Chiesel

MohPlus

Tieeman GoD_BeAsT_SlaYeR

Powis19

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cxycee

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guitarchitect

Willard_heard

DrRepaz

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_matt_killz007

ThDarkLord26

Jivpun

Chimpysaurus

Jarkaron

Kundtz-KGZD

Gjrm4

Komik36

Davenom13

Andyzilc

MLG_PEARS

Rcakiller

RACOON445

DrewCar

HybridHippo_

Knuzze

John_carter3gg

GeeBraSi

NoCeiIingz

Hargensmash

XXJayXZaiXx

Eaxboyed

TheKillers_ksa

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Player_Deaths

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keep_calm693

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cazazombies245

If you like my ideas please leave a like and share this post, If you want my idea to be implemented to Ash please sign and share my petition so DE can see this and make Ash way better than he is/was.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

 

I will be updating this (EVERY FRIDAY). You can look in the comment section of me talking from more ideas to past events relating to Ash. So if you want to know more, follow this post.

To view them go to each page, hold CTRL F and type VEXX-INFO to view them.

If you have any questions about my revisit to Ash just ask me. To find answers to questions you have which has been answered (which I will let you know If I have) press ctrl & F then type Q&A to find them.

And just to make this clear.. I`m giving Ash a REVISIT not a rework.

Here is the difference between a rework and a revisit.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1170539-what-is-the-difference-between-a-rework-and-a-revisit/

 

I personaly duno if it's a good idea to bring back power to his BS , before the current "rework" that is actualy a huge nerf, ash had to just pres 4 and nuke whole rooms... with that said I belive the ability itself should be droped in favor of somthing like a mix of mirage's 1+ AI moving decoy that deals damage. Or even somthign similar to valkyrs 4 but more of a smokey theme , like x% to get hit by enemy fire + forced to use only mele but % of it's damage is slash etc.

The problem that i see with bs in his kit is that it removes the player from the ecuation after targets are set just like in a way messa's 4... oh i aim and thigs go pop not realy engaging gameplay (i say this but i main mesa and octavia so take it with a grain of salt... i truly belive messa needs a revisit ) .

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Am 22.8.2020 um 03:14 schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Let me ask you this .

Would you say Octavia is in a bad spot because people rarely see her? She is one of the best frames all around but not played as much because of the effort put into playing her. Overall ash is fine in terms of damage output synergies and more. A small qol touch up would be nice but a full rework? It’s not necessary at all. Regardless you mention vauban and to date he’s still not played as much as before if only slightly more as I still see the aforementioned top frames more then anything.

I'm not sure, but I think the reason why nobody plays Octavia is not that she needs a huge amount of effort to be played, but that she is simple boring/ inactive. Octavias winning startegy is just click 1, 2, 3, 4, a few times crouch and the mission is done. Even Hydroid is more active and he is the one who turns into a puddle.^^

If Ash get a rework or a revisit doesn't matter. I agree with you that Ash needs actually just small qol improvments which are typical for a revisit. But the amount of improvments he needs is imo to much that it can just be called a revisit.

Last but not least the amount of players doesn't always tell, if a frame needs a revisit or not. Excalibur as an example is much more used than Ash/ Vauban, but compare Excalibur (Umbra) with Ash (Prime).

Spoiler

Tankiness:

  • Ash Prime:
    • EHP+ ESP= 1181
    • EHP= 712
    • ESP= 468
  • Excalibur Umbra:
    • EHP+ ESP= 975
    • EHP= 600
    • ESP= 375

Suvivalability abilities

  • Ash Prime:
    • Smoke bomb
      • Ash turns invisible
        • Theoretical 100% damage mitgation
        • +700% melee damage on every enemy
      • cost 35 Energy
  • Excalibur Umbra:
    • Radial Blind:
      • Blinds enemies in range.
        • Enemies outside ot it are still going to attack Excalibur
        • +700% melee damage on blinded enemies
      • cost 50 Energy

Sprint speed and "transport" abilities

  • Ash Prime
    • Sprint speed= 1.2
    • Teleport:
      • range 60m
      • needs a target
      • opens an enemy for a finisher 
        • Buggy
  • Excalibur Umbra
    • Sprint speed= 1.0
    • slash dash
      • 12m
      • no target required
      • deals damage to nearby enemies

Damage abilities

  • Ash Prime
    • Shuriken:
      • 500 damage per shuriken+ guaranteed bleed proc
        • 2468 damage per shuriken in total
      • Only hit 2 target
        • Has pucnhtrough but it rarely works
      • Cost 25 energy
    • Bladestorm:
      • 2000 damage+ guaranteed bleed proc
        • 125.906 true damage with arcanes, mods and combo-multipler (please correct me, because I'm sure that it was only 90k ^^ )
          • (2000 [base damage] + 2000 x 43.75% x 9 [bleed damage]) x 3,75 [combo-multipler] x (1+ 1,8 [Arcane Fury]+ 0,6 [steel charge]) 
      • cost 12 energy per mark
        • only 6 if invisble
  • Excalibur
    • Radial javelin
      • 1000 damage
      • hits all enemies in los
      • cost 75 energy
    • Exalted blade
      • to lazy to calculate that all for a frame who I very rarely play. But I'm sure that it can't compete with bladestorm

Like you can see beats Ash Excalibur in everything, but somehow is Excalibur still more popular than Ash (even in high Mr.)

Am 22.8.2020 um 03:14 schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Even so the above mentioned reworks suggested by our good Op is overkill in hopes that he can compete with Saryn etc easily (he can just requires <effort> ) and on top of that the heinous amount of spamming he does with these threads in game and on forum is problematic and annoying to say the least 

At least one thing in which we both agree.^^

Am 22.8.2020 um 12:01 schrieb seventhwalker:

If you can kill whole rooms with your melee weapons faster than Bladestorm, something's wrong either with the way you use it or its setup. Even all throughout Steel Path it was super easy to complete it with Ash within 2 days of its release

I think that was mentioned to me, right?

In the most times it's easier and faster for me to kill everything in a room just with my melee weapon (Zaw-nikana with Exodia Hunt). Normally I use bladestorm, while I attack the enemies. In the most times I choose the group right from me, because it's easier for me to shoot at something in the left direction, while slashing the enemies infront of me.

Am 22.8.2020 um 16:36 schrieb (PS4)Titchgamer:

1st ability could do with a bit more damage

Extra damage wouldn't save it, because the damage from bladestorm will always be higher. In low levels it could be useful as an option to kill the weaklings, but with a higher enemy level it will become useless again. I think it should be enough that enemies hit by a shuriken have a guarenteed chance, that they get bleed proc from other sources (kinda like garudas fourth ability, but "single" target).

And the augment should remove the shieds from enemies instead of the armor, because armor is the least problem an Ash player will have.

Am 24.8.2020 um 10:41 schrieb kaotis:

I personaly duno if it's a good idea to bring back power to his BS , before the current "rework" that is actualy a huge nerf, ash had to just pres 4 and nuke whole rooms... with that said I belive the ability itself should be droped in favor of somthing like a mix of mirage's 1+ AI moving decoy that deals damage. Or even somthign similar to valkyrs 4 but more of a smokey theme , like x% to get hit by enemy fire + forced to use only mele but % of it's damage is slash etc.

The problem that i see with bs in his kit is that it removes the player from the ecuation after targets are set just like in a way messa's 4... oh i aim and thigs go pop not realy engaging gameplay (i say this but i main mesa and octavia so take it with a grain of salt... i truly belive messa needs a revisit ) .

super troopers yes GIF by Fox Searchlight

I think it would be better/ more fitting, if Ash just gets an one-hit ability because in the end is he a Ninja/ an Assasin. But I have no idea how to implent this without being useless (one enemy per use is ineffecient) or more broken than Octavia (range is to high). The only solutions would be a cooldown, extremly long animation or a second energy-ressource like Nidus Mutation statcks/ Gauss Battery Power.

 

Last but not least I'm sorry that I responded so late. =/

Edited by ES-Flinter
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4 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

I'm not sure, but I think the reason why nobody plays Octavia is not that she needs a huge amount of effort to be played, but that she is simple boring/ inactive. Octavias winning startegy is just click 1, 2, 3, 4, a few times crouch and the mission is done. Even Hydroid is more active and he is the one who turns into a puddle.^^

If Ash get a rework or a revisit doesn't matter. I agree with you that Ash needs actually just small qol improvments which are typical for a revisit. But the amount of improvments he needs is imo to much that it can just be called a revisit.

Last but not least the amount of players doesn't always tell, if a frame needs a revisit or not. Excalibur as an example is much more used than Ash/ Vauban, but compare Excalibur (Umbra) with Ash (Prime).

  Reveal hidden contents

Tankiness:

  • Ash Prime:
    • EHP+ ESP= 1181
    • EHP= 712
    • ESP= 468
  • Excalibur Umbra:
    • EHP+ ESP= 975
    • EHP= 600
    • ESP= 375

Suvivalability abilities

  • Ash Prime:
    • Smoke bomb
      • Ash turns invisible
        • Theoretical 100% damage mitgation
        • +700% melee damage on every enemy
      • cost 35 Energy
  • Excalibur Umbra:
    • Radial Blind:
      • Blinds enemies in range.
        • Enemies outside ot it are still going to attack Excalibur
        • +700% melee damage on blinded enemies
      • cost 50 Energy

Sprint speed and "transport" abilities

  • Ash Prime
    • Sprint speed= 1.2
    • Teleport:
      • range 60m
      • needs a target
      • opens an enemy for a finisher 
        • Buggy
  • Excalibur Umbra
    • Sprint speed= 1.0
    • slash dash
      • 12m
      • no target required
      • deals damage to nearby enemies

Damage abilities

  • Ash Prime
    • Shuriken:
      • 500 damage per shuriken+ guaranteed bleed proc
        • 2468 damage per shuriken in total
      • Only hit 2 target
        • Has pucnhtrough but it rarely works
      • Cost 25 energy
    • Bladestorm:
      • 2000 damage+ guaranteed bleed proc
        • 125.906 true damage with arcanes, mods and combo-multipler (please correct me, because I'm sure that it was only 90k ^^ )
          • (2000 [base damage] + 2000 x 43.75% x 9 [bleed damage]) x 3,75 [combo-multipler] x (1+ 1,8 [Arcane Fury]+ 0,6 [steel charge]) 
      • cost 12 energy per mark
        • only 6 if invisble
  • Excalibur
    • Radial javelin
      • 1000 damage
      • hits all enemies in los
      • cost 75 energy
    • Exalted blade
      • to lazy to calculate that all for a frame who I very rarely play. But I'm sure that it can't compete with bladestorm

Like you can see beats Ash Excalibur in everything, but somehow is Excalibur still more popular than Ash (even in high Mr.)

At least one thing in which we both agree.^^

I think that was mentioned to me, right?

In the most times it's easier and faster for me to kill everything in a room just with my melee weapon (Zaw-nikana with Exodia Hunt). Normally I use bladestorm, while I attack the enemies. In the most times I choose the group right from me, because it's easier for me to shoot at something in the left direction, while slashing the enemies infront of me.

Extra damage wouldn't save it, because the damage from bladestorm will always be higher. In low levels it could be useful as an option to kill the weaklings, but with a higher enemy level it will become useless again. I think it should be enough that enemies hit by a shuriken have a guarenteed chance, that they get bleed proc from other sources (kinda like garudas fourth ability, but "single" target).

And the augment should remove the shieds from enemies instead of the armor, because armor is the least problem an Ash player will have.

super troopers yes GIF by Fox Searchlight

I think it would be better/ more fitting, if Ash just gets an one-hit ability because in the end is he a Ninja/ an Assasin. But I have no idea how to implent this without being useless (one enemy per use is ineffecient) or more broken than Octavia, because the range is to high. Only solution would be a cooldown, extremly long animation or a second energy-ressource like Nidus Mutation statcks/ Gauss Battery Power.

 

Last but not least I'm sorry that I responded so late. =/

BS should always be stronger, But it should be able to do decent amounts of damage to a single enemy.

At the moment they just bounce off level 170’s!

 

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3 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

I'm not sure, but I think the reason why nobody plays Octavia is not that she needs a huge amount of effort to be played, but that she is simple boring/ inactive. Octavias winning startegy is just click 1, 2, 3, 4, a few times crouch and the mission is done. Even Hydroid is more active and he is the one who turns into a puddle.^^

If Ash get a rework or a revisit doesn't matter. I agree with you that Ash needs actually just small qol improvments which are typical for a revisit. But the amount of improvments he needs is imo to much that it can just be called a revisit.

Last but not least the amount of players doesn't always tell, if a frame needs a revisit or not. Excalibur as an example is much more used than Ash/ Vauban, but compare Excalibur (Umbra) with Ash (Prime).

  Reveal hidden contents

Tankiness:

  • Ash Prime:
    • EHP+ ESP= 1181
    • EHP= 712
    • ESP= 468
  • Excalibur Umbra:
    • EHP+ ESP= 975
    • EHP= 600
    • ESP= 375

Suvivalability abilities

  • Ash Prime:
    • Smoke bomb
      • Ash turns invisible
        • Theoretical 100% damage mitgation
        • +700% melee damage on every enemy
      • cost 35 Energy
  • Excalibur Umbra:
    • Radial Blind:
      • Blinds enemies in range.
        • Enemies outside ot it are still going to attack Excalibur
        • +700% melee damage on blinded enemies
      • cost 50 Energy

Sprint speed and "transport" abilities

  • Ash Prime
    • Sprint speed= 1.2
    • Teleport:
      • range 60m
      • needs a target
      • opens an enemy for a finisher 
        • Buggy
  • Excalibur Umbra
    • Sprint speed= 1.0
    • slash dash
      • 12m
      • no target required
      • deals damage to nearby enemies

Damage abilities

  • Ash Prime
    • Shuriken:
      • 500 damage per shuriken+ guaranteed bleed proc
        • 2468 damage per shuriken in total
      • Only hit 2 target
        • Has pucnhtrough but it rarely works
      • Cost 25 energy
    • Bladestorm:
      • 2000 damage+ guaranteed bleed proc
        • 125.906 true damage with arcanes, mods and combo-multipler (please correct me, because I'm sure that it was only 90k ^^ )
          • (2000 [base damage] + 2000 x 43.75% x 9 [bleed damage]) x 3,75 [combo-multipler] x (1+ 1,8 [Arcane Fury]+ 0,6 [steel charge]) 
      • cost 12 energy per mark
        • only 6 if invisble
  • Excalibur
    • Radial javelin
      • 1000 damage
      • hits all enemies in los
      • cost 75 energy
    • Exalted blade
      • to lazy to calculate that all for a frame who I very rarely play. But I'm sure that it can't compete with bladestorm

Like you can see beats Ash Excalibur in everything, but somehow is Excalibur still more popular than Ash (even in high Mr.)

On 2020-08-21 at 9:14 PM, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Even so the above mentioned reworks suggested by our good Op is overkill in hopes that he can compete with Saryn etc easily (he can just requires <effort> ) and on top of that the heinous amount of spamming he does with these threads in game and on forum is problematic and annoying to say the least 

At least one thing in which we both agree.^^

Imho you can say the same about Saryn or sand boy being boring. But at the same time that’s more subjective and I try to avoid those a bit. The reason I’m not all for a rework or at least most of these afromentioned reworks suggested here is because they aim to make ash something he’s not imo. And I’d prefer the frame keep his identity rather then get buffed to all ends to satisfy those who just want another high tier and eventually are just gonna go back to playing said high tier even after rework. Look at wukong vaub etc. unless ash gets game breaking changes he’s still gonna be picked significantly less then other frames. On top of that it’s ops attitude . Yes I do not help admittingly but I have no respect for someone spamming in game and I. Forum.

now about the excal vs ash.

excal is warframes poster boy. It’s expected and you shouldn’t be surprised he has a higher pick rate. Along with his unique passive and more. I can even argue excal could be a candidate for a rework but his kit minus his one isn’t too bad. It just requires more to play than Saryn Mesa or the”killer” frames. But people don’t want to hear that . 

Personally people have a habit of comparing what they can’t do with x frames to these which is understandable but if that’s the case don’t you think those top tiers are a bit over tuned???

again a qol would be nice like shurikens doing more DMG smokescreen provides an accuracy debuff when shooting in the smoke or shooting at the smoke and blade storm gets a bigger targeting reticle removes the three mark mechanic and only needs one -2 marks  to get full damage. And / or it scales with attack speed. Being that in many cases most ashes use daggers kronen primes nikanas etc which have a nice and healthy attack speed. Doing these would be a major balanced buff that I feel like most could enjoy and personally if anyone is against these simple changes and want more (like Old bs)  they just want the one and done back to compete with Saryn etc. (if that’s the case look at Saryn and etcs kit because they affect every warframe in this matter) but again that’s just my opinion. 

And finally. Op is very rude and that’s coming from me of all people trying to say I’m harassing him because I disagree with his opinion and more. When in reality his reddit post and more including the spamming have cause my attitude towards him I play with a lot of friends and fellow ash mains. Hearing this over and over gets beyond annoying 

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vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Titchgamer:

BS should always be stronger, But it should be able to do decent amounts of damage to a single enemy.

At the moment they just bounce off level 170’s!

I know that the damage of Bs should always be stronger, but this shouldn't be the reason to let shuriken just become useless after a certain enemy level.

Btw. what for a build are you using? My shuriken stops killing after lv. 100. (Maybe a bit further. I actually never use it.)

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

The reason I’m not all for a rework or at least most of these afromentioned reworks suggested here is because they aim to make ash something he’s not imo. And I’d prefer the frame keep his identity rather then get buffed to all ends to satisfy those who just want another high tier and eventually are just gonna go back to playing said high tier even after rework. Look at wukong vaub etc. unless ash gets game breaking changes he’s still gonna be picked significantly less then other frames.

May I ask you what is Ash for you?

For me is Ash a Ninja who is focused on deadly, but also very focused attacks. He kills his target with one strike while staying invisible. He has also different options to kill his targets from far away or to get in an instant in the near of the target to kill it.

Btw. I think comparing the frame with the number of players is the wrong way. In theory it can show that a frame might be weaker (Hydroid), but It could also mean that this frame is harder to play and maybe even a bit stronger (Mag).

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

excal is warframes poster boy. It’s expected and you shouldn’t be surprised he has a higher pick rate. Along with his unique passive and more.

If I'm not mistaken is his passive only useful in Index and the poster boy-Bonus is very likely also gone if the player has a mastery higher than 20.

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

It just requires more to play than Saryn Mesa or the”killer” frames. But people don’t want to hear that . 

Not sure why, but this sentence remembers me on someone who told me that my first Ash concept (The one with the blood-points passive) is to complicated. And the only thing which has to be done was killing enemies with bleedprocs...

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

again a qol would be nice like shurikens doing more DMG

Disagree, because there will be never a reason to choose the weaker ability (Shuriken) over the stronger one. (Bladestorm)

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

smokescreen provides an accuracy debuff when shooting in the smoke or shooting at the smoke

Agree. I'm asking for this since day one.

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

blade storm gets a bigger targeting reticle removes the three mark mechanic and only needs one -2 marks  to get full damage. And / or it scales with attack speed.

Disagree, because that could turn Ash into a second Mesa (at least on PC).

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Being that in many cases most ashes use daggers kronen primes nikanas etc which have a nice and healthy attack speed.

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to add that these weapon all have a guaranteed slash-proc on the first heavy attack.

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Doing these would be a major balanced buff that I feel like most could enjoy and personally if anyone is against these simple changes and want more (like Old bs)  they just want the one and done back to compete with Saryn etc. (if that’s the case look at Saryn and etcs kit because they affect every warframe in this matter) but again that’s just my opinion. 

And thats why I like to discuss with you about Ash. While you have a different opinion about Ash than me (In my eyes is Ash probably much worse than in yours), we both are still agreeing that Ashs Revisit/ Rework shouldn't make him to a press X to win frame.^^

Btw could you please send me a pm with the link for the reddit post which you are talking about at the end of your post?

Edited by ES-Flinter
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Almost forgotten.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Personally people have a habit of comparing what they can’t do with x frames to these which is understandable but if that’s the case don’t you think those top tiers are a bit over tuned???

Frames like Mesa and Octavia yes, because they require no effort to kill everything. I've heard that Saryn require some work and actually playing the game to kill everything so I think she is maybe okay (Nerf her survivability a bit to compensate it.) and frames like Nidus, Gauss, Wisp are perfect imo.

But I don't know what I should say about Vauban. His CC is game-breaking, but we have CC-immune enemies so idk?

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13 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

May I ask you what is Ash for you?

For me is Ash a Ninja who is focused on deadly, but also very focused attacks. He kills his target with one strike while staying invisible. He has also different options to kill his targets from far away or to get in an instant in the near of the target to kill it.

Btw. I think comparing the frame with the number of players is the wrong way. In theory it can show that a frame might be weaker (Hydroid), but It could also mean that this frame is harder to play and maybe even a bit stronger (Mag).

 

44 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Btw could you please send me a pm with the link for the reddit post which you are talking about at the end of your post?

To me ash is primarily a high single target dps. And his kit out side of blade storm really shows that imo. He excels in getting in and getting out fast which is why I don’t really consider him a really great stealth frame. (I use wisp or wukong for spy’s but mainly wukong for stealth) as the smoke screen is meant to be a short duration. And while blade storm is a viable room clear based on how it works Imo I feel like it’s there just to give him nuking potential don’t get me wrong I love bs and the ninja feel. But when I think of an assassin I think of getting a target killing him as fast as possible and getting out.

As deadly and as efficient as possible 

i also agree useage does not always = viability but it can indicate strong frames to an extent asking most people why they play certain frames and putting them in line with general player usage can indicate a trend sometimes.

20 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Btw could you please send me a pm with the link for the reddit post which you are talking about at the end of your post?

Poster boy bonus will never fade away from a community. Garen is one of the weaker legends  in league for an example. But has a very nice pick rate even in higher elo. He’s one of the poster boys and when you think about LOL you think about garen at times screaming DEMACIA. It’s similar to warframe you can’t think about wf without excal and since he’s not in an utterly unusable spot he will always be played.

and even if he was he will.

27 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Not sure why, but this sentence remembers me on someone who told me that my first Ash concept (The one with the blood-points passive) is to complicated. And the only thing which has to be done was killing enemies with bleedprocs...

The thing is while I don’t mind complicated. That’s not going to do anything but have him see less play time. This community is very.... nice. At times lol. Giving a frame mechanics that are supposed to keep the player engaged with wf backfires more often then not. Ember is a good example. Personally I don’t care about a rework as long as it dosent make ash simple and stupid stupid easy to play and again that’s my only issue with most suggestions and reworks. Right now ash and his current kit provide some engagement. I don’t mind more but taking it away and making it easier and so simplistic to the point he’s one and one again. I will probs drop warframe for good as him and my daikyu are the only things that bring me back mostly.

37 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Not sure why, but this sentence remembers me on someone who told me that my first Ash concept (The one with the blood-points passive) is to complicated. And the only thing which has to be done was killing enemies with bleedprocs...

There’s nothing wrong with a slight 5-10% damage buff to shurikens imo or up the scailing Of bleed procs by Power imo. I’m not trying to make it more broken. 

 

39 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Disagree, because that could turn Ash into a second Mesa (at least on PC).

Allowing the reticle to mark one or two people surrounding them I don’t think would be terrible but I think it’s fine as is being that I play on a higher sense off stream bc people say it’s nauseating. In terms of people saying bs needs a qol I just think this would help them achieve more marks. And with the mark change allowing max damage at one or two marks but they’d still have to activate it again dosent seem too bad to me. Either way I’m still not affected as I can survive with ash. And the attack speed could help with our “great” op and his issue where everyone is killing his marks before him (natural talent already fixes that tho) so that way he can feel good that his clones are killing faster. 

 

45 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

And thats why I like to discuss with you about Ash. While you have a different opinion about Ash than me (In my eyes is Ash probably much more worse than in yours), we both are still agreeing that Ashs Revisit/ Rework shouldn't make him to a press X to win frame.^^

Btw could you please send me a pm with the link for the reddit post which you are talking about at the end of your post?

I had made a thread where even op berated me because I’m a “salty ash main” (lmao do you really take someone serious if they are calling him self that) because his thread gets more views and even so after finding out he spammed this link to all level heII I can see why. 

Also I think someone linked it in this thread but it’s basically him giving out this same ash challenge and saying ash bad rarara which is why I don’t care to be very kind to him. 

40 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

I've heard that Saryn require some work and actually playing the game to kill everything so I think she is maybe okay (Nerf her survivability a bit to compensate it.)

I went through a scary Saryn phase post and pre rework. She is ez just get a weapon with aoe and build more duration and range than power and U win with just her one 

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the conversation seems interesting but I will leave a comment on the ability to shuriken, since patch 28.3, derelict shift, strength mod no longer work to increase base damage, so its only utility combined with seeking shuriken to have some use in Ash's kit

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Am 25.8.2020 um 21:25 schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Poster boy bonus will never fade away from a community. Garen is one of the weaker legends  in league for an example. But has a very nice pick rate even in higher elo. He’s one of the poster boys and when you think about LOL you think about garen at times screaming DEMACIA. It’s similar to warframe you can’t think about wf without excal and since he’s not in an utterly unusable spot he will always be played.

and even if he was he will.

I played LoL only three times (every game with Master Yi) so I can only believe you about that and give you the point.

Am 25.8.2020 um 21:25 schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

The thing is while I don’t mind complicated. That’s not going to do anything but have him see less play time. This community is very.... nice. At times lol. Giving a frame mechanics that are supposed to keep the player engaged with wf backfires more often then not. Ember is a good example. Personally I don’t care about a rework as long as it dosent make ash simple and stupid stupid easy to play and again that’s my only issue with most suggestions and reworks. Right now ash and his current kit provide some engagement. I don’t mind more but taking it away and making it easier and so simplistic to the point he’s one and one again. I will probs drop warframe for good as him and my daikyu are the only things that bring me back mostly

Happy Social Media GIF by Yevbel

Possible that I can send you a pm about my Ash concept when it's finished? (Finished in about a year or so)

Am 25.8.2020 um 21:25 schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

There’s nothing wrong with a slight 5-10% damage buff to shurikens imo or up the scailing Of bleed procs by Power imo. I’m not trying to make it more broken. 

It's not the problem that the ability could become OP. It's the problem that this skill will always underperform compared to BS (<-cheaper and much stronger). A damage boost will never help it. The only way to make it useful is to give it a unique mechanic, which isn't just adamage boost.

That's way I suggested that shuriken should give the same debuff like garudas fourth ability. Fitting for his passive and it allows a player to use weapons which doesn't have slash damage.

Am 25.8.2020 um 21:25 schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

Allowing the reticle to mark one or two people surrounding them I don’t think would be terrible but I think it’s fine as is being that I play on a higher sense off stream bc people say it’s nauseating. In terms of people saying bs needs a qol I just think this would help them achieve more marks. And with the mark change allowing max damage at one or two marks but they’d still have to activate it again dosent seem too bad to me. Either way I’m still not affected as I can survive with ash. And the attack speed could help with our “great” op and his issue where everyone is killing his marks before him (natural talent already fixes that tho) so that way he can feel good that his clones are killing faster. 

I don't know. Maybe only the future can tell if this changes will just buff this ability or turn Ash into press4towin frame.

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I do not know if i've posted in this thread before as it sounds familiar.  At least the title does.  Either way I consider myself more open minded these days to adjustments since i've become relatively detached from the game as a whole.  So even if I have I feel compelled to give updated feedback.  The one thing I want to mention off the bat is that I don't particularly enjoy over usage of mechanics.  A lot of people want to add exalted stuff, quiver functionality, hold to cast functions etc.  So based off of that i'm not fond of any of your hold to cast suggestions.  But let's hop into this:

 

Shurkien:  The concept of shuriken doing stealth kills is cool.  However I think trying to kill someone with the ability for said effect is pretty difficult.  I like the improvement to making the target of said shuriken going to who you aim at instead of it just homing at random.

Suggestions: Instead of making the target have to die by shuriken for it to be considered a stealth kill just extend that effect to anything that kills the target effected by the Shuriken and said "debuff" would be in effect as long as that target is effected by the slash procs.  We could rename the slash procs specifically for ash "bleed" for a reason i'll give later.  The only other improvement i'd give is letting him just cast more shuriken in general when he's not aimed at anyone.  So it could be a mini AoE.  So you have your nice single target damage when targeting an enemy.  But an AoE for marking without having to fudge around with input methods.

 

Smoke screen:  I actually really enjoy what you've done here overall.  Though I feel like the making allies non targetable sort of steps on the ability's augment.

Suggestions:  I'd bump the ability's range from 10 to 12 by default.  The lingering cloud being a seperate radius than the initial cast seems like over complicating the ability so I wouldn't even bother with that and just keep the AoE of the debuff the same as the initial cast.  And instead of making it increase the damage from all sources i'd just limit it to Ashe's abilities. As for ally interaction I think passing through the cloud can just give allies a buff that reduces enemy accuracy for a short period of time.  And just make it so Enemies won't shoot through a cloud of smoke.  These changes serve your ideas well enough imo without removing the point of it's augment.

 

Teleport:  Again I like most of what was here.  But some of it seems needlessly complex.

Suggestions:  I agree with keeping the ability to teleport through things so long as you can see an item/object or player/enemy.  Teleporting to a wall is also a good idea.  I would like it if he could freely teleport without needing a target (obviously not through surfaces,) but have it at half range if you do so.  Your changes to where he can teleport and where he ends up along side free teleporting without a target massively ups his mobility and freedom of movement which is really the main issue with the ability.  Essentially keep what you have here along side my suggestion of free teleporting.  But remove the hold functionality suggestions.

 

Blade storm:  The general complaints as I understand it with BS is that it takes too long to setup for decent damage and there's no real useful synergies between it and the rest of his kit.  While your suggestions are interesting i'm not particularly fond of them myself.  A lot of it hinges on his old version of BS which I wasn't a fan of.  Though I do like the idea that if he's cloaked when he and his clones kill things with BS it's considered stealth kills.

Suggestions:  We can go about increasing the downtime of his current in two ways.  The first I already introduced in his kit.  Which is the "bleed" debuff.  Essentially if Ash has interacted with the enemy with any of his other abilities they're considered "marked" When he activates BS.  The second way is the passive marking of enemies in a cone in front of him.  Meaning if he sees a hallway of enemies they're all marked.  HOWEVER.  I would like to keep the idea of looking at a target as a way of functionality.  So with that in mind if Ash physically looks directly at a target they instantly have the 3 marks on them.

Joining into the blade storm yourself via teleport will refresh the marks.  So if they're not killed on the first pass around they're still marked when you've finished the first round.  Additionally i'd like to add one more mechanic.  Enemies that are within 5-8 meters of Ash during blade storm can be seen through surfaces via an outline.  They will not be passively marked as they're not fully visible.  However it will allow Ash to apply Marks by looking at them.  Or using them as a teleport target to get into BS himself.

 

Synergies:  I like the idea of cheaper shurikens while invisible and making bodies disappear in general while you're invisible.  So keep this.  I don't think we need to add a group stun with teleport while invisible.  You already introduced a nice synergy with bodies going away after interaction with abilities plus invisibility.  So Just make enemies killed after being hit with a teleport via a finisher disappear too.

Suggestions:  Aside from what I mentioned just above we already have some nice interplay going on in the kit.  Shurikens now mark targets which are useful for his blade storm.  Teleport refreshes marks for BS.  And invisibility generally makes things stealthier and cheaper.  Not to mention smoke screen is debuffing enemies specifically for Ash thus further helping his damage more.  I don't think he needs more.

 

Looking forward to your feedback as Ash isn't a frame i'm particularly familiar with.  I stopped playing him initially after I got loki because back then his invisibility was longer which meant it was better.  The rework certainly made him more interesting but the execution was a bit clunky.  I guess wrapping up i'll clarify myself a bit.  The reason why I took the approach I did with blade storm is because the devs wanted more interaction out of his kit.  I definitely understand the dislike for how much setup it takes to get going with him.  And in a way my rework doesn't really remove the setup like most people like.  But I think that won't go away.  I felt a middle ground could be met by having said setup be more of a natural extension of his gameplay.  Doing this ontop of giving him weaker but passive marks in a cone means people could still play it a bit lazily for quicker usage.  But it being weaker and limited to a cone means it's not as cheesy as old BS used to be.

My main gripe with hold functions is primarily how clunky it feels to use from a controller perspective.  And more often than not when DE introduces a hold function one just ends up being better than the other.  I think it's best to try and find ways to make abilities diversify in function through more natural methods than just a new input.  (like my AoE fan of shurikens when not aimed at a specific target.)  Overall I enjoy the direction you went with the revisit but I felt like you were over complicating aspects when you had quite a few solid ideas at base.  Abilities should be relatively simple to understand so you don't have to over explain every instance that exists.  I'd say my most favorite thing in your list was the general approach to smoke screen.  You took a very simple and bland ability and expanded on it's theme whilst adding a new way to play with the ability itself.  That's really cool.

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Don't mind me just throwing some ideas around.

Note: I haven't read the entire thread and I don't have the patients to do it so I'm not sure if someone suggested these already.

Shuriken: Give Shuriken a weaker version of his augment mod that can stack.While the new augment would let Shuriken to bounce around enemis depending on the mods level.

Bladestorm: Upon activating the ability enemies near your crosshair will get marked, a second later your shadow clones will start attacking the first enemy that got marked and then move on to the next. Between each attack will be a 1 second delay and every marked enemy will cost you energy. The shadow clones won't be performing any fancy animation or crazy acrobatics, just a simple facestab/ throat slice.

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We’d discussed this over a party chat and I figured I’d let my ideas out for the public;

 

-Shuriken is relatively fine but I agree that the whole “oh damn lemme just mod for minimal PS to make complete armor strip” idea is bad. There should be limits and I had the idea of the targeting system for shurikens where there’s a limit of say 10 enemies that can be targeted to have shuriken thrown at them BUT you’re on a timer to mark them; perhaps another way would take off the 3 shuriken restriction and make it where there’s enough shurikens for literally ALL ENEMIES IN SIGHT! Though someone mentioned bouncing enemies which could in theory work with depleted power per bounce! I had also believed it could be properly used IF there was a way to incorporate the first and second ability together(held charge targets allies to smoke them) but I’m not sure how well that would work.

 

-Smoke screen is great the way you explained it, and I’ll get into why when I touch on BS

 

-teleport was well worded and of course my inner weeb came out to mention how both Minato and Tobirama from the Naruto franchise, had a wonderful teleport capabilities! Though that would be EXTREMELY HARD to implement, though NOT impossible.

 

-Blade Storm is that one idea I’d wanted to touch on because this seems to be a beautiful idea of mine. Reduced duration and increased range makes SS good for many reasons and stated by yourself, but what if it worked the same way for BS? Kinda like Oberons second ability, you drop a kunai and anyone in the immediate 360° vicinity range(see why 2 and 4 would compliment eachother?) would be effected by the ability. The idea is highly flawed and I don’t mean to make it a carpet ability, I mean it more like Oberons 4th where you drop and go, less like Vaubans 4th where it sits there and isn’t thrown, and less like equinox’s set because of it being a mobile set of abilities where it follows you. An augment(IF THIS WAS POTENTIALLY TRAP BASED) could make a shuriken act like Saryns spores minus the auto spread! This idea would be hard to do because not all enemies fall for trap based things and for the augment to work in that way you’d need to be within the “trap” to differentiate from the armor stripping shurikens and the BS spreading shurikens. The idea behind this reply is to take the old BS idea, and tweak it based off of how other frames work. If you TRULY take the time to read and imagine my ideas, it not only makes Ash a good self-synergizing frame, but also a decent team player! I’ll admit that most of my ideas stem from anime but where better else to get ideas than the obscene anime ideas? FFS you could make BS reworked to work almost exactly like Minatos “Celestail Air Slice Type-Zero” from NUNS4, just like smoke screen could mimic GOT’s smoke bombs when they’re maxed. There’s so many things that could be done to better Ash, though what’s on paper may not always be what’s best and/or practical!

-Here I’ve attached a link for almost exactly what I mean for the 4th ability to work, essentially instead of the extra work that was needed for the nuke(helminth, teleporting, etc.) it would just innately be that type of nuke IF BUILT LIKE THAT! Remember it would NEED to be worked and nerfed, these are all ideas of course, and the video is from a forum Vexx has already mentioned before.  https://youtu.be/OOMM-WKUFZM

Edited by (PS4)deltaco1006
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