Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I have something interesting to show you guys today. besides the other ppl I have spoken to about Ash.

On 2020-11-16 at 1:59 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

When I play public missions I like to have discussions on warframes and I talk about Ash problems and my solutions.

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There are warframe youtubers that either think Ash needs a revisit or that they don`t like the marking mechanic.

 

I massaged Dogman Dan about Ash and he agrees that he needs a revisit.

Spoiler

 

Gaz TTV doesn`t like the marking mechanic on bladestorm.

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H3dshot thinks that Ash`s bladestorm need a lookover the most.

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I messaged Life of Rio on youtube and he doesn't like bladestorm and this is coming from someone that was crazy for Ash. 

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And this is the best message of the bunch. What to ppl always say to someone them has an opinion on a warframe ability that`s not released yet? "Oh wait for it to come out before you judge it" well this person predicted that Ash bladestorm would be problematic and pay attention to the date. This guy called it and idk what ppl say if I see an issue with a ability before it`s released I will talk about it.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2020-11-26 at 12:19 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Just a question for the PC players, since DE looked at Ash I assume that they fixed the teleport bug so I ask; can teleport consistently open humanoid enemies up for finishers?

The last time I used Teleport was when Marked for Death was good. But I'd be terribly surprised if it had changed since then, at all. To the best of my knowledge the answer is no; Enemies will infrequently just not be susceptible to finishers for no apparent reason using regular Teleport, and with the augment Ash will still sometimes not be able to teleport to his target because "there isn't enough space" - though you could easily walk up to, and stand behind the enemy.

[Tiltskillet]

35 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Enemies will infrequently just not be susceptible to finishers for no apparent reason using regular Teleport

I don't play Ash, but even using other frames I sometimes can't apply finishers, so maybe Teleport isn't the main issue?

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't play Ash, but even using other frames I sometimes can't apply finishers, so maybe Teleport isn't the main issue?

The issue is probably that Teleport not directly enables finishers on the enemy, but applies some sort of stagger which enables finishers. Because such staggers are known to be overridden or blocked by other animations. It's just a guess though.

[Prexades]

Just tested Ash with Rising Storm augment and Arcane Trickery, he is great.

Seriously, you can easily stay hidden for most of the mission and just tag everything with Blade Storm it works even in Steel Path.

@(PSN)Vexx757

Quoting the absolute worst and toxic WF youtubers out there for their opinion means less than nothing. Half of them hate the game and their understanding of game mechanics is at least rusty.

 

[DeMonkey]

18 hours ago, Prexades said:

Quoting the absolute worst and toxic WF youtubers out there for their opinion means less than nothing.

Wasn't DogManDan very publicly made not a Warframe Youtuber by DE as well?

Any excuse to bump the thread though.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-11-27 at 5:12 PM, Traumtulpe said:

The issue is probably that Teleport not directly enables finishers on the enemy, but applies some sort of stagger which enables finishers. Because such staggers are known to be overridden or blocked by other animations. It's just a guess though.

You are correct, if you use your 2nd ability to stun the enemy then teleport to them, it won`t open them up to finishers no matter what you do (which I have tested), if an enemy is on fire and you teleport to it, it won`t open them up nether.

And this is the issue I have with DE, they decided to look at warframe abilities but they don`t even play the damn frame to see if the frame has bugs how does that make any sense.

Once again if you guys know of anymore bugs Ash has please report them.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Just a reminder, here is a list of bugs he has that I have noticed so far;

·       While using blade storm, pickups are attached to Ash`s body and get in the way visually.

·       When bs ends, the camera is fixed in one place and doesn’t move with Ash.

·       Make Ash consistently be able to teleport in and out of the same grates/fan instead of just one direction.

·       Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Sometimes the visuals of the clones change from a hologram, original ash and ash prime look, make the “clones” look like whatever variant your using (like wukong`s 1st ability).

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleports him in a different location.

Please report this to DE.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-11-18 at 2:24 PM, ES-Flinter said:

Me being proud with around 1350hours.

Vexx entered the chat. Vexx uses "playtime-9100h-2000h_with_Ash" Card.

My proud:

Well tbh it`s not something for me to be boasting about, that`s why this is the first time I'm mentioning it. Even through my playtime is high there are a lot of ppl they use Ash more then me. I actually play him for fun, I play syndicate missions and try to play stealthy with my dread, kunai and the okina. I use to play him in high-level missions but with the marking mechanic I don`t use him solo anymore, if I do use him in public I just use his 2nd ability.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

As you saw I already put up a post showing the positive comments, now here are the negative comment.

 

Spoiler

Which is untrue since both of my posts, his issues, stats and ppls actions show otherwise, so this is just a ignorant comment.

 

Spoiler

The fact this person massage me this is unbelievable, not even asking why I say this then shoes me his build like that changes anything and once again bring up the same argument that does nothing. Another ignorant comment.

 

Spoiler

I can`t even.... -_-

 

Spoiler

Comments like this is the reason why ppl don`t believe Ash has issues and the point of this post, instead of acknowledging his issues he says this...

 

This is a comment made by a someone new to Ash and is interesting what he says about Ash`s bladestorm.

Spoiler

 

One thing I have noticed is that when I talk to new players that have never played Ash and I explain the mechanics of the old vs the current bs, they all say that the old one sounds better and most of them don`t like the current bs and these are coming from new players, now that says a lot.

I don`t have an issue if ppl like Ash in his current state, I only have an issue if ppl deny his issues and just ignore them.

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-11-27 at 6:01 PM, Prexades said:

Just tested Ash with Rising Storm augment and Arcane Trickery, he is great.

Seriously, you can easily stay hidden for most of the mission and just tag everything with Blade Storm it works even in Steel Path.

@(PSN)Vexx757

Quoting the absolute worst and toxic WF youtubers out there for their opinion means less than nothing. Half of them hate the game and their understanding of game mechanics is at least rusty.

I don`t give a frig what they said or did, they all could be thieves, what they said here was informative, it backs up my points and it proves I’m not the only one saying it so I used it. I`m not going to act like they didn’t say it coz you tell me their toxic, as long they not affecting my life idk.

As for Life of Rio (coz I know that’s one of them you’re talking about) he talked about warframe mechanics multiple times so you`re ignorant here. The point is ppl that other ppl follow has said the same issues about Ash which you mist.

Spoiler

See guys I’m not making this up again someone is talking about damage which I never argued, an augment and an arcane that adds on to Ash`s capabilities when I’m talking about Ash being good on his own with no assistance from anything and mentioned about steel path which again is not my argument.

Do you see the consistency here? Ppl that disagree bring up the same points damage, augments and high-level missions.

[Prexades]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Vexx757:

I don`t give a frig what they said or did, they all could be thieves, what they said here was informative, it backs up my points and it proves I’m not the only one saying it so I used it. I`m not going to act like they didn’t say it coz you tell me their toxic, as long they not affecting my life idk.

As for Life of Rio (coz I know that’s one of them you’re talking about) he talked about warframe mechanics multiple times so you`re ignorant here. The point is ppl that other ppl follow has said the same issues about Ash which you mist.

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See guys I’m not making this up again someone is talking about damage which I never argued, an augment and an arcane that adds on to Ash`s capabilities when I’m talking about Ash being good on his own with no assistance from anything and mentioned about steel path which again is not my argument.

Do you see the consistency here? Ppl that disagree bring up the same points damage, augments and high-level missions.

You absolutely didn't back up your point. You are just quoting a youtuber 'Life of Failure' to back up a point you didn't make. I am not responsible for you having a poor understanding of game mechanics.

If I build my Ash with Rising Storm, I can easily one hit enemies on SP, marking them is reasonably fast enough. I am also not responsible for you insisting that his Teleport skill should somehow be better than his ultimate. I also play on PC and didn't encounter any glitches with Ash.

 

Edit:

 

Also you are mixing bugs you encountered with problems of his kits. I have used Ash lately in SP and I am absolutely happy with his performance.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Just to ask you guys something, when I play Ash I use the dread, kunai and okina (or ninja related weapons) I know melee works well with his abilities but for the sake of fun is their any primary or secondary weapons the work well with Ash?

[(PSN)dday3six]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Just to ask you guys something, when I play Ash I use the dread, kunai and okina (or ninja related weapons) I know melee works well with his abilities but for the sake of fun is their any primary or secondary weapons the work well with Ash?

It’s being ‘that guy’. However bows, shuriken/kunai, and sai weren’t ninja strictly related. That’s pretty much all media fabrication as Ninja is more a specialization. A peasant could be a ninja, a samurai, lord, or monk could be one too. The things people forget is that most classes of feudal Japan were forbidden the use and even possession of swords. Then quality steel was rather scarce on the island. Leading to the use of tools often being repurposed as weaponry.

To answer your question utility weapons are good with every frame. Some example are: Ferrox for grouping enemies and spreading status effects. The new Cernos bow is good at it too. Miter with augment for Null bubbles, of course Kuva Nukar to spread status for CO, or the new tentacle kitgun chamber. Pox, Zakti, and Kuva Brakk were all good status spreaders as well. Basically melee is king, and everything else supports it after your guns stop being viable. 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Quote from @Kaggelos

Spoiler

Here goes.... While I do not own Ash, I have read about him extensively. I understand the problems you say that there are with Ash. And your solutions to his problems are... the best I've seen yet! It's amazing how much one can improve something just by making a bunch of small tweaks to it. I really hope DE sees both of your posts and considers it!

But I will mention that there is one glaring problem that I noticed: You are making Shurikan scale off of his equipped melee weapon. Many people strongly prefer that it rather scale off of ability strength instead. Poeple don't like being "forced" to equip a statstick if they want to be able to use their abilities to their full potential. Perhaps instead make it scale completely off of his ability strength.

 

When I comes to Ash I've played him 21.8% of the time which is my most used frame, I like the concept of teleporting, I like ninjas and he looks sick, however his issues even through are obvious to me but is not to other ppl coz the use his 1st and 3rd ability augments 24/7 so their won`t know their issues and they use him in high-level, open area mission, but for someone like my that plays him for fun, I noticed.

So I sat down and played him seeing his issues, thinking about each of his abilities, asking ppl the things they don`t like about Ash and I put all that together to come up the the ultimate revisit for Ash and not to put myself on a pedestal, but out of all the Ash ideas (and dare I say warframe ideas) I've seen, mine is the most popular. It improves all the abilities without going completely overboard and addresses all his issues.

I do understand about the statstick (since I don`t like them nether) however it`s only the crit damage that it takes from melee weapons not the whole stats of the weapon, for the most part, ppl will want to put crit damage on their melee and if not it`s not a big deal since it`s not a must (low levels for example) and it does scale off of power strength and the combo multiplier. So I hope you understand why I added that part to shuriken.

I really do hope DE sees both of my posts coz they both speak for themselves and just to ask, would you want my Ash changes to be implemented to him and would my Ash changes make you want to play Ash if you had him?   

[Kaggelos]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Poeple don't like being "forced" to equip a statstick if they want to be able to use their abilities to their full potential.

Personally I agree with this.

The only instance that comes to mind for "statsticks", is the combo multiplier for for certain abilities, like Excal's 3 (which I wished was the case), since he IS a melee based frame, so it would make sense to have a long combo timer.

[MistressMoonpaw]

Heres how to fix Ash: Bring back the OLD Bladestorm. Before that marking target Bullcrap

[ES-Flinter]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb MistressMoonpaw:

Heres how to fix Ash: Bring back the OLD Bladestorm. Before that marking target Bullcrap

People screaming at you, because you didn't used Bs 24/7 wasn't funny. Or fitting for a non mobile game.

[MistressMoonpaw]

4 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

People screaming at you, because you didn't used Bs 24/7 wasn't funny. Or fitting for a non mobile game.

Oh i guess now people are screaming at you to pick a different frame when using Ash and thats better. Oh wait, that actually doesnt happen because no one uses ash anymore since they changed bladestorm dramatically. I guess its more "fitting" for Warframe to have Warframes that no one uses because theyve been changed to S#&$. Why dont we just remove Ash completely at this point and forget about him. But hey, at least its more "interactive" while no one is using him. So you got that going for you.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-12-07 at 6:04 PM, Prexades said:

-snip-

Err yes it has, it shows that I'm not the only one that think bs is problematic and that Ash needs a revisit plus the 400+ names of ppl in-game on my other post proves that also, go look. 

And again you keep mentioning high level missions like that`s my argument, Ash could kill level 50,000 enemies in one hit the activation speed is too slow before you can get to the killing, I never said his teleport should be better than bs idk where you got that from.

I know that`s a lie since Trumtulp (a PC player) said:

 "The last time I used Teleport was when Marked for Death was good. But I'd be terribly surprised if it had changed since then, at all. To the best of my knowledge the answer is no; Enemies will infrequently just not be susceptible to finishers for no apparent reason using regular Teleport, and with the augment Ash will still sometimes not be able to teleport to his target because "there isn't enough space" - though you could easily walk up to, and stand behind the enemy."

 

And I bet you said this while using his augment, how about you take it off and try again. Duh his bug are a part of the problem with his abilities and I'll keep saying it take him to a normal Earth defence mission in a team and use bs but I know you won`t coz you know as soon as you try you will see its issues and you will know that I'm right.

 

[Prexades]

So Ash needs a rework because Teleport isn't that useful? Seriously at least 3/4 of all Warframes have one less useful abilities. Your entire argument for a rework is that one ability and that is not even the most important one.

Stop being so laser focused on Teleport, go use Blade Storm with the Rising Storm augment and you won't have to look back at that one ability.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On my Ash revisit post I mentioned a buff to smoke screen where the stun duration is increased from 1sec to 4 secs and I said that with this small change it will completely change how the ability can be used.

New playstyle: Smoke screen can be used to cc the enemies to either attack or evade.

If this were to be the case this is the build I would use:

 

If you take a look here, I have equipped three mods that will make this new playstyle work; Fleeting expertise, Transient fortitude and Augur reach. Tf gives me power strength and negative duration, FE gives me efficiency and negative duration and AR gives me more ranges. As a result, my smoke screen has 2.8s of duration and 17.5m range.

Benefits:

·       Low duration makes it to where you are able to cast the ability with less of a dely.

·       The extra energy efficiency makes you able to cast the ability more often.

·       More range means you can reach a lot further to stun more enemies to catch them within the radius.

·       The is good for ppl (like myself) that is not interested in the invisible part of the ability (in my cast for fun`s sake) and wants to see Ash visually.

·       Even through the duration is low, the stun length is not affected by duration mods.

·       This ability now gives player the option to prioritise being invisible or using cc.

 

With these changes to smoke screen you can now use Ash efficiently in defence and interception missions to stun enemies to keep them away from the defence target/capture point.

As you can see also my mods aren`t maxed out so ppl with the maxed out will get the full effectiveness of the capabilities of the ability.

Plus the smoke having a 10s duration and enemies affected being stunned for 6s and being vulnerable to damage by 40% brings even more possibilities to Ash`s playstyle with smoke screen.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-12-10 at 3:48 PM, (PSN)dday3six said:

-snip-

When I said ninja related weapons I meant melee weapons and thanks for the weapon suggestions. Also you said on another post that Ash doesn't need a complete overhaul and that only his teleport needs some improvements, as you have read I all his abilities need some improvements based on the evidence I have written, since you feel this way I want your opinion on my revisit to Ash.

Does it improve his abilities? does it keep within the theme of a ninja? would it make you play Ash more?

[(PSN)dday3six]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

When I said ninja related weapons I meant melee weapons and thanks for the weapon suggestions. Also you said on another post that Ash doesn't need a complete overhaul and that only his teleport needs some improvements, as you have read I all his abilities need some improvements based on the evidence I have written, since you feel this way I want your opinion on my revisit to Ash.

Does it improve his abilities? does it keep within the theme of a ninja? would it make you play Ash more?

Melee doesn't strictly mean, 'ninja', the emphasis for ninjutsu is being nonconventional. Think modern day insurgents and guerrilla warfare...but that's all just the student of combat arts in me talking. However Ash is not merely a ninja, but specifically an assassin. All frames are stylized as space ninja, you know since they "play for free" and all. 

At any rate, don't misinterpret me about Teleport. I don't feel it requires a change. Rather it is the only skill I would directly alter if any change is to occur. In a perfect world I'd like some manner of area of effect crowd control with an augment that either increases finisher damage or causes it to spread on death. Similarly to the existing augments of Radial Finisher/Savage Silence or Resonance/Calm and Frenzy. I'd settle for a short duration (2-5s) AOE stun on impact around the Teleport target in the end. 

I will not be dragged into extensively commenting on your purposed changes because blatantly I don't feel Ash needs all that much attention. Any evidence that you've provided is opinion and the two are not equivalent. Furthermore I don't need motivation to play Ash. He is finely playable to me currently.

If I were absolutely forced to purpose improvements to Ash's existing kit it would center around marking targets for Blade Storm to add synergy. Energy costs across the board might need to be looked at, however Shuriken would not longer hit two targets instead marking its single target along with it's existing effect. Smoke Screen could mark up to 3 in it's AOE range. Either Teleport has an AOE stun or is a reworked CC, but either way it would mark up to 5 targets. Being invisible would increase the number of marks skills applied. One is the default, and when invisible it's two, with directly through Blade Storm being the only way to get 3 marks on targets. Blade Storm would not longer cost to mark, but rather to activate the marks, then Teleport wouldn't be the join in were it changed, rather holding Blade Storm's button/key would be. 

See, one paragraph. Simple and succinct. This is why I don't take you or the other guy wanting to add blood tokens and pilfering effects to Ash seriously. Both of you are quite literally try-hards, and neither of you can see the forest for the trees. 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-12-21 at 11:07 PM, (PSN)dday3six said:

-snip-

If you had read the post you would know that Ash does need "that much attention" go read it. My opinion on Ash is based on facts, observation and thing you can try out for yourself, the marking part of his bs is what makes the ability bad so it needs to be removed.

I don`t see how I`m a try-hard my 2nd post addresses all the issue he has, again read the damn post 1st then state you opinion on it and how would you know if you haven`t bloody read it? If you think Ash is fine then that`s fine but you can argue facts and most of the ppl on here plus the 400+ names of ppl that I`ve spoken to (one the other post) says otherwise.

And you can`t see the "forest from the trees" coz your probably one of the ppl that use his 1st and 3rd augment 24/7, use Ash in steel path or all three, take then off, use Ash on a normal Earth defence in a team and use bs and you will see his issues.