Pets 2.0 Feedback in Light of Devstream #137

[Avienas]

10 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Unless I can breed more abomination hybrids (whether from my existing stock or from scratch), I'm not interested even slightly in this.

Im more worried about how ridiculous of a grind it will turn pets into. Because if people have to constantly chase for that `perfect heritage combo`, then that basically means its worthless to use forma on any of the pets until then....

...Which due to d.e.`s policy to nerf anything that is way too popular will mean people would be forced to play the breeding heritage game again and add in more forma till d.e. decides to nerf that and people then want to do the chase again if they havent given up on it....

Not to mention that pets REALLY have a bad affinity gain when it comes to grinding them, even worst then warframes at times which take alot longer to max out compared to weapons, even when you only bring one weapon period. Honestly this is just reminding me how i kept declaring like with many systems: D.E. for CLEMS sake simplify the damn systems already before adding more crap in!

 

NOT. TO. MENTION: It still heavily depends on what these heritages will bring, cause if its anything like +50% duration to all buff type mods, then people would abuse the hell out of that for charm, cat`s eye and so on. But if its something as simple as a little bit of extra raw damage, health, armor or shields, then people will give zero fks to those value, because pets are always absurdly squishie & bad for straight up Dps to begin with unless you intentionally run specific frames to give absurd health and/or armor to pets via LINK-Health/Armor/Shields/etc.

...and this is even if we purposely skip out priority mods to give it something like corrosive, but beast companions in general do not have the status chance to even effectively proc to begin with, as far as i can remember.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Avienas

[xmegarockx]

En 31/1/2020 a las 15:32, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender dijo:

• Genetic Heritage: Please, no. Randomized appearances, all well and fine. Randomized bonus stats like Railjack? Please, just stop. It's bad enough it's a large investment to make a good companion build with Forma, having to try and search for ideal bonus stats will only make things worse, and encourage people to throw away whole collections of pets repeatedly to have ones with better bonuses. Unless there's some way to alter a companion's genetic bonus after it's already been incubated, matured, and forma'd 7 times, this is a really terrible idea.

 

i also dont like that hope de change is mind about rng stuff!

[(NSW)Feralheart]

14 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

From what I understood in the devstream, Scott said it would just become pet slots.

Stasis slots are sold for 10p/slot
Companion slots are sold for 15p/2 slot = 7,5p/slot

If they convert both to Pet slots, isn't worth to buy more Stasis slots because the companion slot is 25% more cheaper.

[Benour]

Im just happy they get rid off that damned incubator so i can switch my smeeta/adarza as i want without waiting.

Also random stats on pets, well i think i pass i just keep my smeeta for kuva and adarza for crit buff and i really couldnt care less about some added stats on them. And i bet the added stats gonna be poopoo anyway and not worth my time/plat. Will see. Also commands for pets, well sounds good but i feel like im not gonna use that feature even once.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Feralheart said:

Stasis slots are sold for 10p/slot
Companion slots are sold for 15p/2 slot = 7,5p/slot

If they convert both to Pet slots, isn't worth to buy more Stasis slots because the companion slot is 25% more cheaper.

I don’t recall there being any companion slots in the game, only stasis and robotic slots.

[(NSW)Feralheart]

4 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I don’t recall there being any companion slots in the game, only stasis and robotic slots.

I meant the robotic slots under companion slots

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

27 minutes ago, (NSW)Feralheart said:

I meant the robotic slots under companion slots

Those are for sentinels and moas however. Sentinels come with a unique gun each when built, hence why there’s two slots per purchase.

[Educated_Beast]

Throwing in my 2 cents:

1.) Big hell no on random stats but I am open to the idea of breeding codes like puzzles especially if they work on existing pets.  For example, do x+ y = z, or x + z = a.   Gauranteed desired bonuses are acceptable.  You put in time, you enjoy the passive bonus.  I'm sure some people will enjoy figuring out the combos and puzzles.  I'll wait for results on wiki and the breed my desired pet.  

Maybe putting in a forma gives a trait or possibility of one.  Not sure if all existing pets would get a reroll or we would get forma refund which not excited about as it takes a lot of time to forma a pet.  Also not cool to throw away existing pets.  Hope DE is creative here, the new genetic trait scheme may be a sure fire way to make most players upset.  

2.) Dont just remove stasis, destroy it as violently as possible.  Tear it out of the ship and blow it up, allow the infested to take it over, allow little creatures to eat it, poop it out, then have that poop burned, etc.  I never use all my pets because it's a hassle to pull them out in a fast based game.  If this is all they did for an update, I would be happy.  Long overdue!  Remember, blow the dang thing up and then toss it's corpse to the pigs.

3.) Give pets a "jaw/claw" slot that can modded separately from pet (i.e. has own slots like sentinals and sentinal weapons).  This would boost power and survivability without any direct changes.  It would just allow us to use existing mods.  With current system, it's not possible to fit mods for both attack and defence.  This is not good and due to polarity differences, it's not even possible to build in different configurations!  Can make kubrows and kavat jaws separate but interchangable within species.  

4.) I know DE needs to eat to live, so make money off cosmetics.  I do not mean armors (although new armors great), I mean sell DNA trait kits.  Allow us to reroll (or adjust) certain cosmetic traits randomly on existing pet with a kit sold for platinum.  That way, you could randomly adjust one trait like size, color, pattern, personality, etc. until you get the perfect pet.  None of these traits affect gameplay, so your 9-forma kavat will perform just as well as my 9-forma kavat with an extra 100p spent to make it look like a giant mutated mess!  This could be random or progressive (i.e. keep increasing or decreasing size by a random percent up to a maximum cap).

Heck, that may have been 4 cents.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by Educated_Beast

[Teridax68]

This thread hits the nail on the head, I think. While the changes to pets seem largely good, the whole modding aspect of pets seems to have been glossed over, and honestly I was a little put off by the talk of the genetic heritage system, because it seems like this unduly complex and unnecessary "wouldn't it be nice" kind of project, at a time when those developer resources really could and should be used to put out bigger fires. While DE did mention an expansion to our ability to command pets, I'm not sure there was any mention of concrete improvements to AI either, particularly as that's one of the biggest current pain points with our pets.

My 2 cents on pets and what to do with them going forward:

• I really just think pets should have no health bars by default, and instead just not take damage. Even with tanky stats, pets die all the time because of random AoE, incredibly stupid AI, or some other foible outside of the player's control. In fact, I'd argue that pets dying are almost never the result of a player misplay, which I think defeats the whole gameplay function of a health bar (health bars exist to punish the player with failure through death if they make too many mistakes). On top of that, it just constrains the mod slots for Kubrows and Kavats even more when we have to equip the same two mods each time just for our pet to not die instantly after being revived (and even then, bringing in the "wrong" warframe with a pet causes that issue nonetheless).
• If we're going to be modding animals to deal damage, they should have a separate modding table as if using a weapon, same as with Sentinels. Not only would this give us more control over our pet's ability to attack, which we don't always want, it would also address a long-standing player issue with dedicating a vast amount of slots on their Kavat/Kubrow just for it to do the absolute minimum it's expected to do.
• On that note, though, I don't actually see the point of pets outputting consistent damage. Utility and crowd control? Absolutely; it's great to have a sidekick to give us a helping hand when we need it. Even damage in specific situations when we set something up, e.g. by bunching enemies together and having our pet Moa throw in a grenade or the like, could be lovely. But outputting consistent DPS just feels really redundant given how damage is really not something we lack, and often carries its own problems when our pet damages something or someone we don't want it to.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

3.) Give pets a "jaw/claw" slot that can modded separately from pet (i.e. has own slots like sentinals and sentinal weapons).  This would boost power and survivability without any direct changes.  It would just allow us to use existing mods.  With current system, it's not possible to fit mods for both attack and defence.  This is not good and due to polarity differences, it's not even possible to build in different configurations!  Can make kubrows and kavat jaws separate but interchangable within species.

Yes please!

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

On that note, though, I don't actually see the point of pets outputting consistent damage. Utility and crowd control? Absolutely; it's great to have a sidekick to give us a helping hand when we need it. Even damage in specific situations when we set something up, e.g. by bunching enemies together and having our pet Moa throw in a grenade or the like, could be lovely. But outputting consistent DPS just feels really redundant given how damage is really not something we lack, and often carries its own problems when our pet damages something or someone we don't want it to.

Agreed on all points, except this. My Kubrow will heal me for 300 health against an unarmored enemy in one hit currently. Currently, it crits close to but less than half of every attack. And when it crits, even against armor it more or less sets my health bar to max. That’s why I use Kubrows and currently Kavats, it’s in-combat regeneration I don’t need to do anything for other than make sure myself and my companion is alive. It’s extremely useful.

That said, damage is really a what separates the different companion types. Sentinels use guns that are weaker than our own, but can’t take a hit, with more utility instead. Moas are sentinels which can take a hit, use guns, and a bit less utility. Kubrows can take hits, in theory, and have higher damage, in theory, then Sentinels, with weaker utility. Kavats have less damage than Kubrows, but offer unique buffs instead.

[Teridax68]

Just now, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Agreed on all points, except this. My Kubrow will heal me for 300 health against an unarmored enemy in one hit currently. Currently, it crits close to but less than half of every attack. And when it crits, even against armor it more or less sets my health bar to max. That’s why I use Kubrows and currently Kavats, it’s in-combat regeneration I don’t need to do anything for other than make sure myself and my companion is alive. It’s extremely useful.

That said, damage is really a what separates the different companion types. Sentinels use guns that are weaker than our own, but can’t take a hit, with more utility instead. Moas are sentinels which can take a hit, use guns, and a bit less utility. Kubrows can take hits, in theory, and have higher damage, in theory, then Sentinels, with weaker utility. Kavats have less damage than Kubrows, but offer unique buffs instead.

I'd say the way you frame the usefulness of that damage is through life steal, which offers utility: if your Kubrow dealt no damage but healed you for that same amount at those same intervals, I'd imagine you'd feel about just as good about it as you do now. As you pointed out, the differentiation between pet types is also more a question of theory than practice: Kubrows are unpopular because they completely fail at their niche of providing better damage and personal survivability, whereas ultimately there is not that much difference between Kavats, Sentinels, or Moas in that their selling points are all some sort of CC or utility effect (e.g. Kavat crit/loot buffs, Moa AoE CC and bullet shields, Helios's scanning...). Honestly, I don't think it's that big a deal if pet types blend into each other in terms of contributions, so long as we get to have the pet we want and some good associated gameplay effect. In fact, I'd argue there need not really be an association between the actual pet we have, and whichever precepts are attached to them, since pets are fun because of how they look and behave, which is distinct from companion precepts, which are good because they're useful and add to our gameplay. If my favorite Moa could use a Kubrow precept or vice versa, I don't think it'd really be the end of the world.

[Educated_Beast]

One more thing I want to add to this thread.  There needs to be on the pet AI toggle inside the arsenal.  We need the ability to set the default command.  This command can be changed in game but your default settings would stay the same for each mission.  

I do not want to have to micromanage the pet AI constantly.  

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'd say the way you frame the usefulness of that damage is through life steal, which offers utility: if your Kubrow dealt no damage but healed you for that same amount at those same intervals, I'd imagine you'd feel about just as good about it as you do now. As you pointed out, the differentiation between pet types is also more a question of theory than practice: Kubrows are unpopular because they completely fail at their niche of providing better damage and personal survivability, whereas ultimately there is not that much difference between Kavats, Sentinels, or Moas in that their selling points are all some sort of CC or utility effect (e.g. Kavat crit/loot buffs, Moa AoE CC and bullet shields, Helios's scanning...). Honestly, I don't think it's that big a deal if pet types blend into each other in terms of contributions, so long as we get to have the pet we want and some good associated gameplay effect. In fact, I'd argue there need not really be an association between the actual pet we have, and whichever precepts are attached to them, since pets are fun because of how they look and behave, which is distinct from companion precepts, which are good because they're useful and add to our gameplay. If my favorite Moa could use a Kubrow precept or vice versa, I don't think it'd really be the end of the world.

You might be right, but I would prefer to keep it so my Kubrow or Kavat can still kill an enemy or two, helps out tremendously when I play solo. Which is all the time. Though in combat regeneration would satisfy myself.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Will these changes break the false Mainstream about “Godly” Smeeta? Probably not, so why then?

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Will these changes break the false Mainstream about “Godly” Smeeta? Probably not, so why then?

Why then? Why then? So pets are improved. So this system is better. To make the game better. This isn’t about some crusade against a specific pet type, this is about problems inherent in the system for all pets.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

28 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Why then? Why then? So pets are improved. So this system is better. To make the game better. This isn’t about some crusade against a specific pet type, this is about problems inherent in the system for all pets.

It’s not about pet type but about players which headlessly following the Mainstream nvm if it’s good or bad. I spent enough time in game to not look at everything thru rose glasses. Let’s take a closer look at Incubator. Where all things like Rename, Consign, Apply Stabilizator, hug a pet and Imprints will be make? Or we simply crack the Egg and voila Omega Lotus Chesa is here besides with message: buy Companion Slot for 20 pl. Or 1 type fits all, you need Lotus head or Bulky skin, look they are in market. I like the idea of Slots but question is: Is it worth?, because everything has its pros and cons.

[Educated_Beast]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Will these changes break the false Mainstream about “Godly” Smeeta? Probably not, so why then?

I only keep smeeta out because it has the type utility I want most of the time.  When I can save other pets to a certain configuration, I will use other pets for specific missions.  

I never swap because it takes to long.  With the destruction of stasis, I will definatly be using a few others on certain frames / missions.  

It's not false mainstream, it's just the most useful most of time in a system that currently punishes you to swap pets and prevents configuration saving.  Every player that thinks for themselves already knows this.  

[Akai-no-bara]

Genetic heritage? Oh yeah! What i want is a family tree window. So i could see which kittens were made by...unnatural means. Ill even give them ppl names. Like Gumbal Watterson and Nicole Watterson.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

It’s not about pet type but about players which headlessly following the Mainstream nvm if it’s good or bad. I spent enough time in game to not look at everything thru rose glasses. Let’s take a closer look at Incubator. Where all things like Rename, Consign, Apply Stabilizator, hug a pet and Imprints will be make? Or we simply crack the Egg and voila Omega Lotus Chesa is here besides with message: buy Companion Slot for 20 pl. Or 1 type fits all, you need Lotus head or Bulky skin, look they are in market. I like the idea of Slots but question is: Is it worth?, because everything has its pros and cons.

You're not making clear sense, and the shortening of your words and misspellings make it more difficult to understand. Nearly nothing here is relevant to the discussion. Stasis slots are becoming companion slots, that's the biggest piece of news from the developers. Ability to select whichever pet you want at any time.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Genetic bonus are a horrible idea if they do them wrong.   

If it was like the Valence system where my Pet could just absorb the genetic buffs of other pets I would totally be down for it... 

I feel bad for Kubro owners though.... new heads and tails are going to totally invalidate their old dogs potentially. 

Maybe with the pet rework you could just let us build a bear...  Choose are own heads/tails/energy color/fur patterns/height/weight + valence system to absorb genetic crap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Adding commands was a waste of time in my opinion but whatever....

My #1 pet wishlist item is to make ROLLER moa's.   Have different sized balls, maybe different exteriors.   But I NEED a damn Roller pet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I'd make a big roller for grendel/octavia.   I'd make a tiny roller for Protea.   Im sure I'd probably just start using them on everything.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As long as we are talking about pets......I know this rework is mostly about beasts but........   I do have a huge issue with sentines.....

Their position was moved so you could see to fish.... Now its ike they are right over your head.....this is waaaaaaaay more god damn annoying than blocking my aim with a fishing spear.......     We need to see our sentinels/pets but they should never be in the way....   They need to be next to/on the shoulder that is farthest from crosshair.  If your warframe is to the left of the crosshair then your sentinel should be to the side or over your left shoulder....  If your warframe is on the right side of the crosshairs then your sentinel should be to the side or over your right shoulder....     It definately should not be in the way of the crosshairs or over your freaking head blocking your vision.......

I would suggest making them ghost when your moving at all,  but I do love seeing my sentinels shooting at stuff during a fight.  I even use it to find enemies that are close and to hard to see on radar, with artax.  

But there has to be a better solution than sitting on my head.

-----------------------

Kavats do an OK job of staying out of the way of mining laser,  but seriously any and all pets should disappear when you got a mining laser out.  Even other players should disappear when you got mining laser out......   I noticed kavats doing a better job of staying out of the way on most drill sites,  but after getting the extended range laser and starting to drill on ceilings,  looking up in the air like that my kavat would often be right there at ground level where the camera had to be to look up.... 

----------------------------

I am totally looking forward to this pet iteration tho.

I do have another request/DEMAND....  With beasts being unlocked and free to getting assigned to different frames..... please please please move the pet tab BACK to being in the warframe tab of the arsenal so we could see IF we have a pet equipped without having to switch tabs.   Gear wheel and vehicles totally deserver their own tab....  pets DO NOT.    It makes swapping loadouts worse.    Maybe this will be a non issue....  I wont ever have to put my kavat into cryo to work on another pet.... so it will always be on all my other loadouts......   ok yeah I guess will hold off on this until after!! nevermind heh.  

Edited February 4, 2020 by (PS4)AbBaNdOn_

[(PSN)Onder6099]

20 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I only keep smeeta out because it has the type utility I want most of the time.  When I can save other pets to a certain configuration, I will use other pets for specific missions.  

I never swap because it takes to long.  With the destruction of stasis, I will definatly be using a few others on certain frames / missions.  

It's not false mainstream, it's just the most useful most of time in a system that currently punishes you to swap pets and prevents configuration saving.  Every player that thinks for themselves already knows this.  

Huras: Interception, Defection, Disruption, Infested Salvage

Chesa: Excavation, Survival, Infested Salvage

Raksa: Interception, Defection, Orb Vallis 

Sahasa: Outclassed by Chesa, but I still love to have bonuses from Health and Energy Conversion on my Nezha since mission start

Sunika: Agree with Sheldon 

These are few examples where Kubrows outperform Smeeta and it’s worth to make few steps from Arsenal to Incubator and back. From my PoE is all that: Take a Smeeta everywhere just false recommendations.

Forgot on Defense: Any, maybe except Raksa, with full Mecha set and proper settings

[voltocitygel]

100% agree with everyone saying biological companions need a separate mod screen for their teeth & claws. I'd been thinking the same thing for a long time while trying to mod my beloved adarza kavat- it's just too difficult to balance offense and defense in half the slots. Sure, sentinels and moas have some offensive mods for them and not their weapons, but they are much fewer in number. All direct damage increases along with crit / status increasing mods should be moved to a separate mod grid. Make it just like modding a robotic companion's weapon. It'd be worth investing a catalyst and forma, even, just to free up those slots to use for more abilities / utilities / defense on your build. Even after the release of fetch, I've continued going without just because my slots are too few to fit it into my build for a QoL mod.

[Kashtan]

DE is trying to make Warframe into lootbox simulator or what? They add more and more RNG with each update it seems...

[Aesthier]

Plat reimbursement for those that spent money on a part of the game (stasis chambers) that is being removed.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Aesthier