Trying to make any single sense out of revenant lore

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The original Rev was part of the frames where a major number of them turned on the Orokin,

Citation needed for this specifically. We know that the first generation of what would become the Warframe project went berserk, but to my knowledge there isn't anything that states that every current frame is based on a version from said first generation, and definitely nothing indicating that Revenant was among them.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

To be clearer, I don't think the Revenant we have now was built by the Orokin with the powers he has now. I think it was created as The Warden, and had a totally different power set more akin to a vampire slayer (sealing away sentient cores like driving a stake through a vampire's heart). I think everything about him that we know as "Vampire" was adapted thematically from the story of the undead Eidolon from the Mesmerizing tendril working its way into the Mesmer skin, to making The Warden its thrall the same way the Revenant creates its own thralls.

I agree with the design history presented by Gear, because I watched the dev streams as he was being revealed as Rebecca's thought-child, and she clearly wanted a Vampire frame. They found a way within the lore to accommodate her requests as best as possible. Everything the Revenant can do is based on vampires, not traditional sentients. They did a "good job" of forcing the mesmerizing thing into the story they told to introduce Revenant to make it an "Eidolon thing" (the story makes it canon that at least the Sentient on earth, once "dead" had the ability to mesmerize a warframe and make it a thrall... and thus, Revenant's ability to do that is now a canon "Eidolon power" that he could be based off of.)

I don't think it was a particularly well done thing, as I'd have also liked to see different powers for an "Eidolon" based frame. I mean, they could have a totally different history for the Vlad frame that didn't touch the Eidolons and have a separate frame entirely based on Sentients and Eidolons. (not that that makes much better sense... I don't think Sentient skins have any place on Warframes either...)

(I typo'd Eidolon for Vampire in my post, in which I was referring to SneakyErvin's posting basis... so much typing of both words.., bound to happen.)

Edited February 12, 2020 by (PS4)AyinDygra

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'll just answer to this because you are so clueless it actually hurts my head.

No the prime version is not the one that was the Warden, nor is it the original. Again I ask you, how little do you actually know about the lore? The original Rev was part of the frames where a major number of them turned on the Orokin, you know, the ones with an actual host inside that went bananas. The primes are the Orokin "perfection" of those frames, the ones used mostly in the old war. The whole thing with Revenant takes place long after that, at the very end of the war when the tenno had their own versions of the frames in order to seek out and kill the orokin "elite" wherever they were hiding, aswell as protecting the system. That is the Revenant frame that went to earth, just as it was the tenno-Gara that blew up the sentient.

Not to mention the whole deal with orokin relics, which would make it impossible for the Prime to be the Warden, since those are locked away pristine orokin blueprints. So even if for some odd reason it would be a remaining prime that ended up on earth, it would have zero effect on the blueprints locked inside orokin relics, which is the means we use to get access to everything that is prime.

Ok, but all that can be circumvented for Revenant because he is very clearly an exception to all of that. His 4th ability is literally an Eidolon ability, and that’s going to be on his prime. Even Valkyr prime was designed to be more of a prime version of her current form than the Gersemi form.

It only makes sense for his prime to be more Eidolon like with a gold trim.

Also, looked up what prime stuff is. It’s just reverse engineered Orokin Tech. Which still coincides with my claim that the normal variant of Revenant is just the cheap mass produced copy.

I’m honestly surprised that you’re this against the idea of playing as a miniature Eidolon.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Citation needed for this specifically.

Ervin hasn’t given a single citation this entire argument. Just his own claims and speculation with faulty logic to back it up.

I at the very least went out and got actual in game quotes, bUt ApPaReNtLy ThAtS nOt GoOd EnOuGh.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

 

I agree with the design history presented by Gear, because I watched the dev streams as he was being revealed as Rebecca's thought-child, and she clearly wanted a Vampire frame. They found a way within the lore to accommodate her requests as best as possible. Everything the Revenant can do is based on vampires, not traditional sentients. They did a "good job" of forcing the mesmerizing thing into the story they told to introduce Revenant to make it an "Eidolon thing" (the story makes it canon that at least the Sentient on earth, once "dead" had the ability to mesmerize a warframe and make it a thrall... and thus, Revenant's ability to do that is now a canon "Eidolon power" that he could be based off of.)

I don't think it was a particularly well done thing, as I'd have also liked to see different powers for an "Eidolon" based frame. I mean, they could have a totally different history for the Vlad frame that didn't touch the Eidolons and have a separate frame entirely based on Sentients and Eidolons. (not that that makes much better sense... I don't think Sentient skins have any place on Warframes either...)

^

this

If DE wanted to make a vampire frame that’s fine. But they shouldn’t have been filling it’s backstory with multiple connections to an already established faction that already has established powers and abilities, and that are very clearly not vampires or anything of the sort. And any possible connects to vampires that the frame has is through blanket terms that cover a variety of different things that vampire just happens to be under.

All it comes off as to the players is a wasted opportunity, and if the frames design and performance sucks (it does) then it’s a waste of both a vampire and Eidolon Warframe.

Also that “memsmerizing” part is up for debate. Because I remember distinctly that Nakak said that Warden grew too comfortable around the Eidolons after fighting them off for so long. Seeing them as less and less of a threat. And they grabbed him when his guard was down. And that paralleled how Nakaks brother died, getting too comfortable climbing the Unum tower and eventually making a mistake and falling to his death.

[TheGodofWiFi]

13 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They could make the prime even more Eidolon-y. As it is the original version that was turned, it would logically have a more complete Eidolon look.

Like I said; this wouldn't make sense thanks to DE's writing. The Warden frame that became Revenant was clearly very different in the lore. It's post Old War time as well, given how its purpose was to watch over the old Sentient pieces (Eidolons) and it got basically hypnotised and transformed by it.

The original that got turned was not a Prime as it does not match with the existing lore and timeline. Plus the Revenant we see is clearly part of the mass produced Tenno line of frames as opposed to the Orokin ones.

And even if by some horribly written retcon, the Warden was some random Prime warframe it still would not make any sense for it to be Eidolon themed as the lore still says it only became Revenant once it was transformed by the Eidolon. So like I said; it would be completely different frame.

[TheGodofWiFi]

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It only makes sense for his prime to be more Eidolon like with a gold trim

It really doesn't as the lore directly states Revenant only gained the Eidolon's power after the original version sacrificed itself to stop the Sentient/Eidolon re-emerging.

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s just reverse engineered Orokin Tech.

Uh no, Primes are pure Orokin tech. The Corpus are the ones who use reverse-enginered Orokin tech in their own technology, but they can't recreate the Primes themselves. That knowledge was lost to everyone after the fall of the empire and the Primes we find are genuine Old War era technology.

From the wiki;

"The term Prime refers to any Weapon, Warframe, Sentinel, Archwing, or accessory made with Orokin technology. The non-Prime weapons and Warframes the Tenno use are based on the Orokin's designs, but are not actual pieces of Orokin technology. The Tenno have tried to imitate the success of Orokin technology in the form of the non-Prime items, resulting in slightly weaker variations."

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, Corvid said:

Citation needed for this specifically. We know that the first generation of what would become the Warframe project went berserk, but to my knowledge there isn't anything that states that every current frame is based on a version from said first generation, and definitely nothing indicating that Revenant was among them.

The few that didnt have a first generation connection are mentioned in the lore. That would be Titania and Nova. Just as there are those that didnt seem to go berserk aswell, like Mirage who has kept her "intellect" since her first host. But I agree not every other frame must be connected to the first generation, but if it isnt stated that they arent, we should assume that they were. We are afterall talking about an army made to battle the sentients, we currently dont even have 50 represented generation one frames, since generation one didnt have duplicates or mass production potential of primes because they were made of living individual subjects. Eitherway, it wouldnt place a prime near earth at the time of the eidolons and it wouldnt change that the concept of relics would render it impossible for a revenant prime to be "corrupted" as Gears puts it, by eidolon energy.

11 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok, but all that can be circumvented for Revenant because he is very clearly an exception to all of that. His 4th ability is literally an Eidolon ability, and that’s going to be on his prime. Even Valkyr prime was designed to be more of a prime version of her current form than the Gersemi form.

It only makes sense for his prime to be more Eidolon like with a gold trim.

Also, looked up what prime stuff is. It’s just reverse engineered Orokin Tech. Which still coincides with my claim that the normal variant of Revenant is just the cheap mass produced copy.

I’m honestly surprised that you’re this against the idea of playing as a miniature Eidolon.

But we dont reverse engineer orokin tech. We use pure orokin tech found in ancient safes i.e relics. That means that all of those things are pristine. So what would happen to one single possible prime would only apply to that single specific prime, in this case your made up theory regarding a prime revenant being the warden. Also, the timeline doesnt add up since we know during which part of the old war the attack on earth happened. And at that point in time there were few primes (if any) around and the tenno made their own frames to bring justice/vengeance onto the system. Plus we know the Grineer are actively digging up individual parts of Revenant across the plains, which is even part of the quest story. So what we really do is just fight a holographic version of him that is much like the holo-guards in junctions i.e specters. Then we use that hologram as the main blueprint in some way to rebuild Rev by repairing the pieces obtained from the orokin digs. This is likely done through some reverse engineering made by us or Ordis, so find what substitute materials may work to repair it all. Much like how we for some reason use Cetus Wisps for Gara. We now use sentient cores for Rev since he can harness that power into his arsenal.

The reason I'm against an eidolon frame, atleast when it comes to having eidolon abilities is because there is zero connections in the lore to actually explain or justify such change. Just as there is zero possibility that he was designed like that from the start, both because there were no eidolons when he was initially created aswell as the orokin likely not wanting to use the same tech again that is about to destroy them.

And what you really seem to want is a sentient theme, not an eidolon theme, because eidolons are nothing but dead glowy sentient pieces in the end.

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

but if it isnt stated that they arent, we should assume that they were.

I'd just like to point out that this is pretty much the opposite of what conventional logic would dictate. You don't assume that something is the case when faced with a lack of supporting evidence.

The only Warframes that we can say with confidence are derived from Gen1 models are Excalibur (Both due to his Codex entry indicating he was the first Warframe and the background images of the Vitruvian) and Rhino (Due to his Codex entry).

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

I'd just like to point out that this is pretty much the opposite of what conventional logic would dictate. You don't assume that something is the case when faced with a lack of supporting evidence.

The only Warframes that we can say with confidence are derived from Gen1 models are Excalibur (Both due to his Codex entry indicating he was the first Warframe and the background images of the Vitruvian) and Rhino (Due to his Codex entry).

Rhino's story can very well refer to the experiment in between gen 1 and primes aswell, those experiments where they tried to get the core inside dormant. The entry also states that they've discarded many.

It is also very possible that the Titania we use is built from direct reverse engineering of a gen 1 frame since there seems to be no tenno controlling it as it kills the Dax trying to hunt down Silvana and it is far too early in the history to be a tenno-copy (which would also require a tenno). Plus it is that exact frame we are looking for in the quest. It is very possible the same goes for Inaros given the point in time where he fights the Orokin, unless his tenno has been one of the absolute first to betray them.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Like I said; this wouldn't make sense thanks to DE's writing. The Warden frame that became Revenant was clearly very different in the lore. It's post Old War time as well, given how its purpose was to watch over the old Sentient pieces (Eidolons) and it got basically hypnotised and transformed by it.

The original that got turned was not a Prime as it does not match with the existing lore and timeline. Plus the Revenant we see is clearly part of the mass produced Tenno line of frames as opposed to the Orokin ones.

And even if by some horribly written retcon, the Warden was some random Prime warframe it still would not make any sense for it to be Eidolon themed as the lore still says it only became Revenant once it was transformed by the Eidolon. So like I said; it would be completely different frame.

You realize that the Chroma in his quest isn’t a prime. Harrow in his quest isn’t a prime. 
For years people were saying DE couldn’t possibly make a prime of the quest frames because the quest didn’t involve their prime version.

Also, his primes going to have Danse Macabre, and that’s an ability derived from the Eidolons. So it wouldn’t make sense for his prime to not look like an Eidolon just like the normal variant. DE even made Valkyr prime look more like a primed version of standard Valkyr and not Gersemi Valkyr.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

It really doesn't as the lore directly states Revenant only gained the Eidolon's power after the original version sacrificed itself to stop the Sentient/Eidolon re-emerging.

Uh no, Primes are pure Orokin tech. The Corpus are the ones who use reverse-enginered Orokin tech in their own technology, but they can't recreate the Primes themselves. That knowledge was lost to everyone after the fall of the empire and the Primes we find are genuine Old War era technology.

From the wiki;

"The term Prime refers to any Weapon, Warframe, Sentinel, Archwing, or accessory made with Orokin technology. The non-Prime weapons and Warframes the Tenno use are based on the Orokin's designs, but are not actual pieces of Orokin technology. The Tenno have tried to imitate the success of Orokin technology in the form of the non-Prime items, resulting in slightly weaker variations."

 

Yeah, the regular variants are just the poor imitations of prime parts. And as stated many time previously throughout this thread, Revenant is no longer the same frame that the Orokin created. And his prime will naturally reflect that because they’re not going to create a frame with a completely different set of powers for a prime frame.

[SilentMobius]

58 minutes ago, Corvid said:

 and Rhino (Due to his Codex entry).

I'm not sure we can even claim that, the timelines are missing too many chunks to be sure.

The discovery of Transference as relates to infested hosts is supposed to have happened after the Bio-Drone warframes had their day and were destroyed (according to the Vitruvian) so the experiments being done by Davis and the Narrator in the Rhino Prime Codex could have been post-bio-drone efforts to create non-rebellious Bio-drones, perhaps by taking samples from the original infected bio-drone hosts and mixing in other infested matter. After all, we know that the Orokin could control pure infestation as the towers have no trouble adding Ancients to its corrupted forces. For all we know the Orokin could have been theorizing that less human and more feral mixtures may provide less resistance to their usual means of control.

Really we have no information about the "Bio Drone" era. The only Warframe shown in the Vitruvian is a non-prime Excalibur. The specific sequence that talks about the Bio-drone era shows a subject in some kind of suit and then a partially-infested version of the same, something that looks like no Warframe we know of.

We don't even know if the quest Warframe stories are from the Bio-Drone-era or the Operator-era

Edited February 12, 2020 by SilentMobius

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But we dont reverse engineer orokin tech. We use pure orokin tech found in ancient safes i.e relics. That means that all of those things are pristine. So what would happen to one single possible prime would only apply to that single specific prime, in this case your made up theory regarding a prime revenant being the warden. Also, the timeline doesnt add up since we know during which part of the old war the attack on earth happened. And at that point in time there were few primes (if any) around and the tenno made their own frames to bring justice/vengeance onto the system. Plus we know the Grineer are actively digging up individual parts of Revenant across the plains, which is even part of the quest story. So what we really do is just fight a holographic version of him that is much like the holo-guards in junctions i.e specters. Then we use that hologram as the main blueprint in some way to rebuild Rev by repairing the pieces obtained from the orokin digs. This is likely done through some reverse engineering made by us or Ordis, so find what substitute materials may work to repair it all. Much like how we for some reason use Cetus Wisps for Gara. We now use sentient cores for Rev since he can harness that power into his arsenal.

The reason I'm against an eidolon frame, atleast when it comes to having eidolon abilities is because there is zero connections in the lore to actually explain or justify such change. Just as there is zero possibility that he was designed like that from the start, both because there were no eidolons when he was initially created aswell as the orokin likely not wanting to use the same tech again that is about to destroy them.

And what you really seem to want is a sentient theme, not an eidolon theme, because eidolons are nothing but dead glowy sentient pieces in the end.

The lore literally states that we reverse engineer primed stuff.

I’m not making up anything. I’m theorizing the plausible elements of of the situation Revenant found himself in. And it’s very likely that “Warden” was a prime frame.

Also, that’s big talk of you accusing me of making stuff up, Mr. Danse Macabre is an Grim reaper themed ability on a vampire frame and Ghosts are vampires.

The literal game tells us he is a Warframe infused with the POWERS OF THE EIDOLON. Just because you don’t agree with what the game is literally telling you doesn’t mean you can dismiss it.

He can be Sentient/Eidolon themed. His backstory 100% supports that. What it doesn’t support is a vampire frame.

Also, Corvid was asking for a citation to support your claim. Not an excuse to not give him one.

Edited February 12, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The lore literally states that we reverse engineer primed stuff.

I’m not making up anything. I’m theorizing the plausible elements of of the situation Revenant found himself in. And it’s very likely that “Warden” was a prime frame.

Also, that’s big talk of you accusing me of making stuff up, Mr. Danse Macabre is an Grim reaper themed ability on a vampire frame and Ghosts are vampires.

The literal game tells us he is a Warframe infused with the POWERS OF THE EIDOLON. Just because you don’t agree with what the game is literally telling you doesn’t mean you can dismiss it.

He can be Sentient/Eidolon themed. His backstory 100% supports that. What it doesn’t support is a vampire frame.

Also, Corvid was asking for a citation to support your claim. Not an excuse to not give him one.

No, the tenno reverse engineered prime things in the past, to make the tenno frames used during "the collapse" after Ballas allied with the sentients. What we find now and use are original prime blueprints with zero need to reverse engineer, because well... they are already blueprints. Reverse engineering means taking a fully contructed items and turning into a blueprint more or less so you can reproduce it on your own in larger scale. It even says in the lore that the tenno never managed to reverse engineer the primes properly, hence why they have the tenno knock offs instead.

Not it is not likely at all given at which point in time it happened. And even if for some very small reason it did happen, there would be no connection to other primes that are locked away in relics. So you are making it up as you go since it has no foundation in the lore. Several different parts speak against it.

I said Danse could be a simple death themed skill, so the prime could have had a massive laser scythe pendulum thingy going instead. I didnt say it was like that, I said it could be, in support of having the "eidolon laser fingers" on this revenant as a "eidolon corrupted" ability while the prime would have something different looking. That was me being on your side. Guess you are to angry to see when someone passes around ideas that could support what you want without breaking the lore.

Yes and what exactly are those magical powers Mr. Gears? You keep dodging that question and you keep having your own (incorrect) definition of the word infusion. I asked you earlier, what exactly sets apart the eidolons from the sentients? Surely you must have some extremely obvious differences in mind since you are very specific on having an eidolon frame. And like I said, eidolons didnt get anything special except for glowing bits and pieces and a ragtag look. So again, what part of their abilities set them apart from sentients? Cos right now, Revenant follows the theme of the eidolons, they both share a glowy and ragtag look while keeping their arsenals intact, both are also infused with the same energy that caused them to come back.

What part of his backstory supports that? Orokin origin creation supports the vampire theme, as can be seen in his skills aswell.

I gave him examples and I think he can answer for himself if he isnt pleased.

Also, you have know shown me that you do not understand the following words. Infusion, Harness, Wreath(ed) nor Reverse Engineer.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, the tenno reverse engineered prime things in the past, to make the tenno frames used during "the collapse" after Ballas allied with the sentients. What we find now and use are original prime blueprints with zero need to reverse engineer, because well... they are already blueprints. Reverse engineering means taking a fully contructed items and turning into a blueprint more or less so you can reproduce it on your own in larger scale. It even says in the lore that the tenno never managed to reverse engineer the primes properly, hence why they have the tenno knock offs instead.

Not it is not likely at all given at which point in time it happened. And even if for some very small reason it did happen, there would be no connection to other primes that are locked away in relics. So you are making it up as you go since it has no foundation in the lore. Several different parts speak against it.

I said Danse could be a simple death themed skill, so the prime could have had a massive laser scythe pendulum thingy going instead. I didnt say it was like that, I said it could be, in support of having the "eidolon laser fingers" on this revenant as a "eidolon corrupted" ability while the prime would have something different looking. That was me being on your side. Guess you are to angry to see when someone passes around ideas that could support what you want without breaking the lore.

Yes and what exactly are those magical powers Mr. Gears? You keep dodging that question and you keep having your own (incorrect) definition of the word infusion. I asked you earlier, what exactly sets apart the eidolons from the sentients? Surely you must have some extremely obvious differences in mind since you are very specific on having an eidolon frame. And like I said, eidolons didnt get anything special except for glowing bits and pieces and a ragtag look. So again, what part of their abilities set them apart from sentients? Cos right now, Revenant follows the theme of the eidolons, they both share a glowy and ragtag look while keeping their arsenals intact, both are also infused with the same energy that caused them to come back.

What part of his backstory supports that? Orokin origin creation supports the vampire theme, as can be seen in his skills aswell.

I gave him examples and I think he can answer for himself if he isnt pleased.

Also, you have know shown me that you do not understand the following words. Infusion, Harness, Wreath(ed) nor Reverse Engineer.

Yeah, the normal variants are poorly made attempts of the prime versions. But in Revenants case. His normal variant is only a fragmented copy of the original Revenant who is Revenant Prime.

Pretty sure the prime relics are just a means of acquisition. DE already changed how Prime farming worked once.

Yeah, too late to try and switch sides. You’ve already chosen to be against an Eidolon Warframe.

Eidolons shoot lasers, can repair themselves using Vombulysts, generate a shield only susceptible to void damage, fire off energy missiles, let out bursts of energy.

Also, I don’t know why you’re asking me to describe the differences between Eidolons and Sentients. I’m the one saying they’re part of the same faction.

Hm, idk. Maybe the part where he was infused with Eidolon energy and was heavily altered from said encounter.

Examples =\= citations. Crediting you’re claims is a citation.

You have shown me you don’t understand basic common sense.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

That moment when gears talks too much that you lose complete track and interest in your own thread

[General-Pacman]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

That moment when gears talks too much that you lose complete track and interest in your own thread

This made me giggle a little bit 😆

Jokes aside, I think we could use a mod here. If this thread stays open, these two will keep jumping at each other until the end of days.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah, the normal variants are poorly made attempts of the prime versions. But in Revenants case. His normal variant is only a fragmented copy of the original Revenant who is Revenant Prime.

Pretty sure the prime relics are just a means of acquisition. DE already changed how Prime farming worked once.

Yeah, too late to try and switch sides. You’ve already chosen to be against an Eidolon Warframe.

Eidolons shoot lasers, can repair themselves using Vombulysts, generate a shield only susceptible to void damage, fire off energy missiles, let out bursts of energy.

Also, I don’t know why you’re asking me to describe the differences between Eidolons and Sentients. I’m the one saying they’re part of the same faction.

Hm, idk. Maybe the part where he was infused with Eidolon energy and was heavily altered from said encounter.

Examples =\= citations. Crediting you’re claims is a citation.

You have shown me you don’t understand basic common sense.

Stop making things up as you go because it just makes you look even more out of touch with what you try to argue.

No, it is still canon in lore. They just happen to exsist in more places than the void now.

That was loooong ago yet you were too frustrated to see it. No idea why you actually get worked up to the point of anger over these things. Nor do I understand that you get so hellbent on winning that you make things up regarding the meaning of real life words and in-game lore, aswell as putting words in peoples mouths that were never said or implied. I mean it is a game, with a lore that we can actually trace pretty decently, with a somewhat coherant timeline, yet you rather keep making things up.

That pretty much describes all sentients. I asked what kind of special abilities the eidolons got from that mystical energy you speak off.

Because there is a difference between them even though they belong to the same faction. And you've claimed that mystical energy does something specific, something that changes those that come in contact with it. Your main point is that Rev should be more eidolon themed, not sentient themed. Why should it alter the hardware of a frame when it didnt alter the hardware of a sentient? The energy just made portside cannon A, hangarbay defense cannon B and helm artillery C come to life more or less. Kinda like Thing in Addams Family.

I'm still waiting for that heavy altered part to show anywhere in the lore.

Why are you fighting for someone else? You do understand that you are either the pot or kettle right now, because you have zero citations for pretty much any of your own "heavy" comments. You even refuse to accept the actual timeline, the one that others also have pointed out in this very thread regarding your "but its da prime!".

You claim you actually have common sense regarding this?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Stop making things up as you go because it just makes you look even more out of touch with what you try to argue.

No, it is still canon in lore. They just happen to exsist in more places than the void now.

That was loooong ago yet you were too frustrated to see it. No idea why you actually get worked up to the point of anger over these things. Nor do I understand that you get so hellbent on winning that you make things up regarding the meaning of real life words and in-game lore, aswell as putting words in peoples mouths that were never said or implied. I mean it is a game, with a lore that we can actually trace pretty decently, with a somewhat coherant timeline, yet you rather keep making things up.

That pretty much describes all sentients. I asked what kind of special abilities the eidolons got from that mystical energy you speak off.

Because there is a difference between them even though they belong to the same faction. And you've claimed that mystical energy does something specific, something that changes those that come in contact with it. Your main point is that Rev should be more eidolon themed, not sentient themed. Why should it alter the hardware of a frame when it didnt alter the hardware of a sentient? The energy just made portside cannon A, hangarbay defense cannon B and helm artillery C come to life more or less. Kinda like Thing in Addams Family.

I'm still waiting for that heavy altered part to show anywhere in the lore.

Why are you fighting for someone else? You do understand that you are either the pot or kettle right now, because you have zero citations for pretty much any of your own "heavy" comments. You even refuse to accept the actual timeline, the one that others also have pointed out in this very thread regarding your "but its da prime!".

You claim you actually have common sense regarding this?

The lore literally says that the normal frames and Tenno weapons are poorly made reconstructions of the primes. What do you want me to do? Lie and say that’s not true? That’s your job.

Well Cetus bounties give relics. So there’s your canon excuse to how Revenant Prime can exist in relics. Even if the distribution of the relics throughout the game won’t line up with that because DE wants you to go to more planets than just Earth.

You literally said you were against there being an Eidolon frame 2 posts ago. That was not very loooooooong ago. Also, you’re the one who kept calling every piece of lore I brought up “too vague” to be considered even possible evidence. But now you’re saying we can accurately understand the lore. Pick a f***ing side. And the reason I’m so hellbent on winning this is because I don’t lose arguments to morons.

I’m still waiting for your in game quote that described Revenant as blatantly being vampire themed. I’m the one saying Revenant was corrupted and heavily altered by the Eidolon energy and should’ve received more than 1 f***ing Eidolon ability from it. It was enough to make him look like an Eidolon that turned into a Warframe, why shouldn’t he have powers that accurately reflect that? The games saying he was infused with their powers and now harnesses them as his own. If you can’t see how clearly those 2 things like up I think it’s time to get your eyes checked.

The fact that you’re saying I have provided zero citations despite you never pulling a single direct quote from the game, and I have literally had the show you the same exact quote 3 seperate times is getting pretty f***ing annoying. Just because you don’t agree with what the games telling you doesn’t mean you can dismiss it.

Hell lot more than you. Because again, you’re the one who claimed a vampire had a laser ability themed off the grim reaper. Vampires aren’t the grim reaper. The grim reaper is not a vampire. Vampires don’t shoot lasers, the grim reaper doesn’t shoot lasers. Lasers aren’t vampires. A basic undead creature does not have innate Mind Control abilites, they need to be a very specific kind of undead to have that. Need I go on? Just because I’m not conforming to your rigid af sense of what words mean and don’t mean doesn’t mean I lack common sense. It just means you lack the basic cognitive capabilities to process ideas that expand beyond your tiny, feeble mind.

Edited February 13, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)LZonut]

Actual real world evidence of the oldest vamps suggest that vampires need life essence, which is simply put, blood. However, in warframe, I believe that DE tried to substitute it with temple kuva. This is shown by the Eidolon wanting to get Temple Kuva to regenerate and become more powerful.

This is a major piece of Revenant's and the Eidolons lore. It shows that kuva, which is obviously not blood (I hope, that'd be nasty if it was), is a substitute for essence instead, as many have used kuva for things like mind manipulation (Unum and animals), healing (Eidolon), and empowering (Kuva gang (liches)), all which are things blood does not do (regenerating something like a cut does take blood, but there is more to it than just that) meaning we can actually pull from this that kuva is an essence, because of it's supposed magical properties or of it's undiscovered science of it being a super serum.

This leads us to conclusion that the Eidolon is in fact based off vampires, because of it's need for kuva which is an essence, which is proven by the evidence I have stated.

The real problem with the story of Eidolons is DE hasn't explained it enough. It is a story with no because behind of it, other than that of the creation of Revenant, which is in of itself an ambiguous mystery. I have thought of this for a long time now, if it wasn't evident of the many reworks I post of Revenant.

Edited February 13, 2020 by (XB1)LordZonut

[TheGodofWiFi]

17 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

ou realize that the Chroma in his quest isn’t a prime. Harrow in his quest isn’t a prime. 
For years people were saying DE couldn’t possibly make a prime of the quest frames because the quest didn’t involve their prime version.

Again, you're not talking any sense. Absolutely no one has said that quest frames cannot have Primes, ever. Chroma and Harrows respective quests did not involve their Primes, but how does that in any way mean they cannot have one? For one thing, Chroma and Harrow do not have lore that says their Primes would logically be completely different frames, unlike Revenant.

17 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, his primes going to have Danse Macabre, and that’s an ability derived from the Eidolons. So it wouldn’t make sense for his prime to not look like an Eidolon just like the normal variant.

Did you even read what I quoted about Revenant's lore? The game specifically states that Revenant only gained the Eidolon's power after the original Warden version sacrificed itself to stop the Eidolon from re-emerging. Which logically means that the frame had completely different powers beforehand. So no, it actually would not make sense for his Prime to look like an Eidolon for both this reason and the fact that the Eidolon's are post-war creatures according to the timeline.

You seem to be ignoring what is written in front of you.

17 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

DE even made Valkyr prime look more like a primed version of standard Valkyr and not Gersemi Valkyr.

Yes and look at the stink that caused within the community because it went against the Gersemi Valkyr lore. That was my whole point; DE wrote lore for Valkyr and Revenant which meant their Primes should be completely different.

17 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Revenant is no longer the same frame that the Orokin created. And his prime will naturally reflect that because they’re not going to create a frame with a completely different set of powers for a prime frame.

Exactly. So why exactly do you act like his Prime having Eidolon powers is lore-backed?

That was the point I was making in the first place. Like Valkyr Prime, they'll probably just slap some blurb text on him and just not bother fixing the lore. I'm still wondering why they mae the same mistake with Revenant's lore. It would have been much easier to keep the lore consistent if they'd simply said that Revenant was created using data collected during the Sentient's testing phases back when the Orokin still had control of them or something.

 

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The lore literally says that the normal frames and Tenno weapons are poorly made reconstructions of the primes. What do you want me to do? Lie and say that’s not true? That’s your job.

Well Cetus bounties give relics. So there’s your canon excuse to how Revenant Prime can exist in relics. Even if the distribution of the relics throughout the game won’t line up with that because DE wants you to go to more planets than just Earth.

You literally said you were against there being an Eidolon frame 2 posts ago. That was not very loooooooong ago. Also, you’re the one who kept calling every piece of lore I brought up “too vague” to be considered even possible evidence. But now you’re saying we can accurately understand the lore. Pick a f***ing side. And the reason I’m so hellbent on winning this is because I don’t lose arguments to morons.

I’m still waiting for your in game quote that described Revenant as blatantly being vampire themed. I’m the one saying Revenant was corrupted and heavily altered by the Eidolon energy and should’ve received more than 1 f***ing Eidolon ability from it. It was enough to make him look like an Eidolon that turned into a Warframe, why shouldn’t he have powers that accurately reflect that? The games saying he was infused with their powers and now harnesses them as his own. If you can’t see how clearly those 2 things like up I think it’s time to get your eyes checked.

The fact that you’re saying I have provided zero citations despite you never pulling a single direct quote from the game, and I have literally had the show you the same exact quote 3 seperate times is getting pretty f***ing annoying. Just because you don’t agree with what the games telling you doesn’t mean you can dismiss it.

Hell lot more than you. Because again, you’re the one who claimed a vampire had a laser ability themed off the grim reaper. Vampires aren’t the grim reaper. The grim reaper is not a vampire. Vampires don’t shoot lasers, the grim reaper doesn’t shoot lasers. Lasers aren’t vampires. A basic undead creature does not have innate Mind Control abilites, they need to be a very specific kind of undead to have that. Need I go on? Just because I’m not conforming to your rigid af sense of what words mean and don’t mean doesn’t mean I lack common sense. It just means you lack the basic cognitive capabilities to process ideas that expand beyond your tiny, feeble mind.

Yes, but those are reconstructions of reverse engineered fully built primes, they are not reconstructed based on prime blueprint. It is what they used when they didnt have access to new primes, when they needed to arm the tenno with frames.

No, the story implies specific relics, we do not find Rev in the void relics. A destroyed prime would not end up in an enclosed relic again. They are prestine mint condition containers from the orokin era. See them as orokin weapon caches, since that is practically what they are.

No I'm refering to when I gave you the benefit of the doubt and passively agreed that it would be a possibilty that his #4 was slightly altered in the sense it looks different from a possible prime. As I said, it was an example. And I still do think an eidolon based frame would be stupid. And the reason it was vague was because you posted a player interpretation and not the actual lore. Read the actual lore and you'll see there is no mention of corruption or anything similar. There is only the mention of a specter that has had it's A.I fried and invaded by an eidolon. The one we get the main BP from.

As I've said repeatedly, the vamp theme comes from his orokin creation. We can afterall see it in 3 skills. And you still fail to answer why the energy should change his kit. What is the magical power of this energy that allows it to physically alter the arsenal of a frame or anything else? He harnesses and channels that power through his orokin given arsenal, hence why it looks eidolonish. Just as Gara manifests what looks and feels like glass with the powers of the void. It isnt actual glass, because it can be destoyed by nullification tech, which removes the void.

Again it is the same player interpretation and not the actual lore quotes or quest convos.

Vampire themed =/= 100% vampire. Just as if someone would ask me to make a paining with a "giant" theme. I'd make a painting showing fire and destuction, because that is the first thing I think of when hearing the word giant, because my mind directly goes to Surt, the king of the firegiants in norse myths.

[Corvid]

13 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The lore literally says that the normal frames and Tenno weapons are poorly made reconstructions of the primes.

Could you give a citation for this, please? Been trying to find where that idea stemmed from for ages to no avail.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

24 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Could you give a citation for this, please? Been trying to find where that idea stemmed from for ages to no avail.

The Tenno have tried to imitate the success of Orokin technology in the form of the non-Prime items, resulting in slightly weaker variations

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Prime