I don't like the sentients (Edited)

[taiiat]

sure, the Collisions of some Sentient designs is actually uh, too accurate, in a way.

trying to Scan Sentients for example, can be a major pain since most of their body is.... basically air.

 

 

oh, for actually fighting them, i'm pretty lukewarm at the way they buffed them at some point so that they can only take a fixed Percentage of Damage at a time.
it's not like anyone actually took advantage of the anti-Adaptation styled Weapons before, but as usual the paranoid measure added just makes the most popular Weapons better, and the less popular Weapons worse. yet again creating the problems that the Players then get blamed for after their creation.
but what else is new in Warframe.

Edited February 21, 2020 by taiiat

[JackHargreav]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

So you actually have to aim? In a shooter? How shocking! Imagine an enemy whom you must shoot purely in the head to do proper damage?
Dude. Warframe. Is. A. Shooter. You can't just point a gun in the air and suddenly things die. Point it at the enemy, and aim, don't point it at the hole in their chest. It ain't that hard.

Sure, quick, erratic movements make it harder, but like... aim?

Well actually you can do that. Explosive weapons exist.

Look. If we have to fight a bunch of Sentients at once the last thing I want to do in Warframe is stopping, carefully aim up the weapon and then slowly chipping away enemy health.

For me the Nox unit, Nullifiers and the Wolf are the best enemies by far honestly. The Nox has even the same level of tankiness as the Sentients. But you know. If I actually aim for the head, I'm being rewarded with it by making my job easier. If I just shoot like an idiot than I make it harder for myself.

Now with the Sentients I seriously should be happy that I land a shot on them? Because It sounds like that's the case.

[JackHargreav]

3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Why do players assume that disliking the Sentients means you're unskilled at fighting them?

I can kill them just fine. It's just a tedious slog that isn't all that enjoyable. Spongey enemies that can one or two-shot the frames I like playing as isn't my idea of a good time or a satisfying challenge. It's just a gear check that forces me out of the gear I find fun to use.

It's a shame, because the Sentients were always one of the more interesting factions to me, and I've been looking forward to their full implementation ever since the Echoes of the Sentient trailer. But now, seeing how they've been handled thus far, the thought of fighting them en masse just has me sighing and considering switching the game off.

Hey. Some one actually gets it. Thank you!

[Corvid]

2 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Hey. Some one actually gets it. Thank you!

It's worth noting that the Oro in their chest cavity is actually a hurtbox. You can damage them by hitting it. From my experimentation, the problem is that the area immediately below said Oro has a hurtbox that is either misaligned so that it doesn't conform to the model, or is flat out absent. I've had horizontal melee swipes physically pass through them without registering a hit.

[JackHargreav]

5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

It's worth noting that the Oro in their chest cavity is actually a hurtbox. You can damage them by hitting it. From my experimentation, the problem is that the area immediately below said Oro has a hurtbox that is either misaligned so that it doesn't conform to the model, or is flat out absent. I've had horizontal melee swipes physically pass through them without registering a hit.

Thanks! That's good to know.

And also It seems like I wasn't just seeing things then. Because I remember how sometimes the bullets go trough them even tho I was aiming right at their bodies.

[Graldo.Espanada]

Well. Imho you'll hate em when you can't beat them. Once you get the hang of it and easily defeat them, only then will you understand

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, Graldo.Espanada said:

Well. Imho you'll hate em when you can't beat them. Once you get the hang of it and easily defeat them, only then will you understand

 

35 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Why do players assume that disliking the Sentients means you're unskilled at fighting them?

I can kill them just fine. It's just a tedious slog that isn't all that enjoyable.

 

[SordidDreams]

3 hours ago, (XB1)anonymousx6x said:

Dash around in operator with arcanes dude. I use Lockdown and I strip resistance and now they can't move. I wouldn't mind a survival with the same numbers coming at me. 

That doesn't really address the fundamental problem that I pointed out, which is having to use the operator.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

5 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That doesn't really address the fundamental problem that I pointed out, which is having to use the operator.

Operator is part of the game. A major part. It's not even like you have to use only your operator. just pop out, blast em, done. Your refusal to utilize a major mechanic is the issue.

The lore, and gameplay of the Sentients are designed around the operator. This isn't going to change soon.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Operator is part of the game. A major part. It's not even like you have to use only your operator. just pop out, blast em, done. Your refusal to utilize a major mechanic is the issue.

No, the inclusion of a sh*t mechanic is the issue. It should be removed, not made mandatory.

1 minute ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

The lore, and gameplay of the Sentients are designed around the operator. This isn't going to change soon.

You're probably right about that. That doesn't invalidate the above, though.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

42 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Well actually you can do that. Explosive weapons exist.

Look. If we have to fight a bunch of Sentients at once the last thing I want to do in Warframe is stopping, carefully aim up the weapon and then slowly chipping away enemy health.

For me the Nox unit, Nullifiers and the Wolf are the best enemies by far honestly. The Nox has even the same level of tankiness as the Sentients. But you know. If I actually aim for the head, I'm being rewarded with it by making my job easier. If I just shoot like an idiot than I make it harder for myself.

Now with the Sentients I seriously should be happy that I land a shot on them? Because It sounds like that's the case.

The... Tank of Saturn Six, really? That rewarded you for bringing a specialized loadout to every mission back during Nightwave 1. Seriously, ever tried taking him down with a unmodded dex sybaris, and a Zephyr?
Nox and Nullies are well desinged. Comba and Scrambus too. Sentients need more precision, because they're designed to be difficult to kill. The major antagonists, and in lore most dangerous beings known, should be tough to kill due to a highly unique desing, and adaptive abilities.They aren't that hard to kill. Nox's are harder due to the sheer dr they get unless you hit the helmet off.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

No, the inclusion of a sh*t mechanic is the issue. It should be removed, not made mandatory.

You're probably right about that. That doesn't invalidate the above, though.

How is the mechanic sh*it? If you don't want to use operator, you add difficulty, but that can be surpassed by use of weapons which serve the same purpose. At least one of which (Paracesis) is decent, I can't say much for the Shedu since I'm yet to get it. You can also round out your loadout for Sentient specific missions, or use a frame designed to kill sentients, umbra.
It is an in universe fact that this is the only way Sentients can be easily slain.

[SordidDreams]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

How is the mechanic sh*it? If you don't want to use operator, you add difficulty, but that can be surpassed by use of weapons which serve the same purpose. At least one of which (Paracesis) is decent, I can't say much for the Shedu since I'm yet to get it. You can also round out your loadout for Sentient specific missions, or use a frame designed to kill sentients, umbra.
It is an in universe fact that this is the only way Sentients can be easily slain.

That's... exactly what makes it sh*t? I thought that was obvious.

[JackHargreav]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

It is an in universe fact that this is the only way Sentients can be easily slain.

I'm sure that's false.

Before Second Dream there were only Warframes. The Tenno never left the warframes behind and a good example for that is the actual cutscene in the Erra quest.

The tenno were sleeping in their pods and only a few were awake. You and some other randos.

Which begs the question of how we dealt with the Sentients if currently the most efficient tools for that are all new stuff? Umbra wasn't used in the Old War. Tha Paracesis is a new weapon and the Shedu was also just discovered.

Some one messed up something there because as far as I know the Orokin won only because they had the warframes.

I might as well mention that the game Warframe is starting to focus a lot more on the tenno. And I personally don't like that much. I want to know more about the frames than the kids who are driving them. But that just me.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

That's... exactly what makes it sh*t? I thought that was obvious.

What makes it sh*t, is your refusal to use a mechanic the enemy type is designed around. Is the Eidolon shield mechanic sh*t? Profit-Taker's elemental switch? Is Shadow Stalker hard? No. They all rely on the same mechanic though. And Sentients are weaker than them all anyway!

Press 5, click, press 5, return to attacking. Easy. Animations don't take long either.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

2 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

I'm sure that's false.

Before Second Dream there were only Warframes. The Tenno never left the warframes behind and a good example for that is the actual cutscene in the Erra quest.

The tenno were sleeping in their pods and only a few were awake. You and some other randos.

Which begs the question of how we dealt with the Sentients if currently the most efficient tools for that are all new stuff? Umbra wasn't used in the Old War. Tha Paracesis is a new weapon and the Shedu was also just discovered.

Some one messed up something there because as far as I know the Orokin won only because they had the warframes.

I might as well mention that the game Warframe is starting to focus a lot more on the tenno. And I personally don't like that much. I want to know more about the frames than the kids who are driving them. But that just me.

The warframes are infested hunks of tissue (Helminth, specifically) coated in armor that used to be people. See Umbra for example. Umbra's punishment was retaining some of his sentience (the memory we see in The Sacrifice), others were erased completely. Transference bolts were stuck on them, and the tenno piloted them from the sleeping pods. Before this, the Orokin used Gen 1 models, like the Titania who were sentient, and able to make their own decisions. Due to events like that of Titania, the Gen 1 models were discontinued. Pre Gen 1 were Bio Drones, which, we know very little about.

Before Second Dream, we didn't know about the Tenno. They were always behind the frame, we just didn't know until then. So the Tenno have always been the focus. After all, you can't make a convincing character out of a non-sentient suit of armor. The most I can see is maybe we learn a little about who they were, but why bother? They were likely Orokin traitors, or things like that.

[Loza03]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

The... Tank of Saturn Six, really? That rewarded you for bringing a specialized loadout to every mission back during Nightwave 1. Seriously, ever tried taking him down with a unmodded dex sybaris, and a Zephyr?
Nox and Nullies are well desinged. Comba and Scrambus too. Sentients need more precision, because they're designed to be difficult to kill. The major antagonists, and in lore most dangerous beings known, should be tough to kill due to a highly unique desing, and adaptive abilities.They aren't that hard to kill. Nox's are harder due to the sheer dr they get unless you hit the helmet off.

The Sentients are difficult to kill because of their unique mechanics and high damage. When on  their home turf, they also have various hazards in their environment to add to that, with ample bottomless pits, damage hazards and sections that make the Sentients invincible.

What they shouldn't do is compromise the primary design of the game, which when on foot, is running around and shooting things. Noxes encourage this by giving a large and clear weak spot whilst also having projectile weapons (which are generally speaking, more fun to fight against) and a distinct silhouette to make them instantly recognisable. Sentients, however, have much smaller hitboxes and move frequently, and the holes in their hitboxes are usually just that, holes, which means there's places to shoot around them. Bear in mind a majority of weapons aren't pinpoint accurate, there is some bullet deviation. Which means with something as skinny as a sentient, you can quite conceivably have your crosshair on the enemy, it turns red, and you still miss because of their hitboxes.

[ssxtriki]

so if they make the hit box larger that would make you happy?

im confused cause all i see is:  their sh1t, dumb mechanics, hard to kill, small hit box, no fun

and no suggestions 

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, ssxtriki said:

so if they make the hit box larger that would make you happy?

im confused cause all i see is:  their sh1t, dumb mechanics, hard to kill, small hit box, no fun

and no suggestions 

Then you evidently aren't looking very hard.

Making their hurtboxes actually match the model would be a nice start. As would reducing the number of adaptations a "Fodder" sentient can make (I'd say 1 or 2 would be good for a Symbalist or Tyro Battalyst, as the former already have a defensive measure in their Shield, and the latter are supposed to be incomplete). Having every Sentient enemy besides Mimics gain 4 resistances is a bit much, especially when pre-release footage showed said enemies only adapting to 2 at a time.

Also, it'd be nice if they weren't immune to status effects. That fact alone invalidates the vast majority of the Tenno arsenal.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Corvid

[CR0ME]

My problem with them is that their radial laser attack ignores the Turbulence shield from zephyr, which is counter intuitive,  like some of the Orb Valis Corpus forces(feels like getting cheated). Thats one of the reason why I dont got there often(the other his because I don t like the white and grey landscape).

Back to the Sentients: I like their design, the movement thing is fine for me, I love the Amalgam weapons design and hope that we might get s sentient/Amalgam deluxe skin for Zephyr.

[Loza03]

16 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Then you evidently aren't looking very hard.

Making their hurtboxes actually match the model would be a nice start. As would reducing the number of adaptations a "Fodder" sentient can make (I'd say 1 or 2 would be good for a Symbalist or Tyro Battalyst, as the former already have a defensive measure in their Shield, and the latter are supposed to be incomplete). Having every Sentient enemy besides Mimics gain 4 resistances is a bit much, especially when pre-release footage showed said enemies only adapting to 2 at a time.

Also, it'd be nice if they weren't immune to status effects. That fact alone invalidates the vast majority of the Tenno arsenal.

Symbalists seem to be the tanks of the Sentients, so one or two resistances would be a poor fit even with the shield. However, who's to say that the health gates sentients adapt at needs to be the same for all that can adapt? How about this: Symbalists have four (or maybe more) resitances, and get them very early in their health bars, and uniquely cannot have those resistances stripped whilst they have a shield up. This means they quickly become immune to damage. However, once their shield is destroyed, their resistances can be removed like any other sentient, and because all their resistances were achieved much earlier in their health bar, they've used them all up for the rest of their HP, allowing them to be swiftly dispatched. Similar to a Nox - hard to kill right off the bat, but a bit of smart play can quickly turn the tides.

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

What makes it sh*t, is your refusal to use a mechanic the enemy type is designed around.

The other way around, my refusal to use the mechanic is the result of it being sh*t. What, you think having only 1 out of 70 frames and 2 out of 400+ weapons be viable against sentients without the use of operator is good game design?

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Is the Eidolon shield mechanic sh*t?

Yes, unambiguously. The Eidolons are the worst boss fight I have ever seen in any game in my 30+ years of gaming, even worse than any of the Elder Scrolls final bosses, and that's really saying something.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Profit-Taker's elemental switch?

Less so than the others. You'll notice the sh*ttiness of each of these examples is directly propotional to how much time you need to spend in operator. Cycling the Profit Taker's element only takes half a second, so it's much better than the Eidolons. And the better your own build and your team, the less you have to use the operator.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Is Shadow Stalker hard?

Hard? No. Annoying? Yes. Call me crazy, I don't think annoyance is a feeling an entertainment product should be designed to evoke.

1 hour ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

They all rely on the same mechanic though. And Sentients are weaker than them all anyway!

Yes, but there are about to be a lot more of them. As I said at the very beginning, they're okay in small numbers.

Edited February 21, 2020 by SordidDreams

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Symbalists seem to be the tanks of the Sentients, so one or two resistances would be a poor fit even with the shield. However, who's to say that the health gates sentients adapt at needs to be the same for all that can adapt? How about this: Symbalists have four (or maybe more) resitances, and get them very early in their health bars, and uniquely cannot have those resistances stripped whilst they have a shield up. This means they quickly become immune to damage. However, once their shield is destroyed, their resistances can be removed like any other sentient, and because all their resistances were achieved much earlier in their health bar, they've used them all up for the rest of their HP, allowing them to be swiftly dispatched. Similar to a Nox - hard to kill right off the bat, but a bit of smart play can quickly turn the tides.

I can see the logic, but I think the problem comes when you put it into the context of a mission. This kind of enemy design works best when the other targets on the field are fodder (or can at least be safely ignored for a little while), but the Sentients are a faction of minibosses with only a single fodder enemy that is not particularly common.

You're more likely to be facing them alongside a Battalyst, which means that while you're trying to break their shield arm, you're either going to be pelted by their shots (which is not something most warframes are able to handle), or you focus on the other enemy and risk being staggered by the Symbilyst's laser and shot anyway.

Personally, I think a better approach would be to make Symbilysts CC-immune while their shields are up, and have them be able to turn fast enough to keep the shield facing you, but relatively vulnerable behind their shields and unable to shoot you while the shield is up. That way, the most effective way to fight one is to either have one player draw their fire while the other flanks, or take the opportunity to charge at them, bullet jump over the shield and hit them from above.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

26 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

The other way around, my refusal to use the mechanic is the result of it being sh*t. What, you think having only 1 out of 70 frames and 2 out of 400+ weapons be viable against sentients without the use of operator is good game design?

Yes, unambiguously. The Eidolons are the worst boss fight I have ever seen in any game in my 30+ years of gaming, even worse than any of the Elder Scrolls final bosses, and that's really saying something.

Less so than the others. You'll notice the sh*ttiness of each of these examples is directly propotional to how much time you need to spend in operator. Cycling the Profit Taker's element only takes half a second, so it's much better than the Eidolons. And the better your own build and your team, the less you have to use the operator.

Hard? No. Annoying? Yes. Call me crazy, I don't think annoyance is a feeling an entertainment product should be designed to evoke.

Yes, but there are about to be a lot more of them. As I said at the very beginning, they're okay in small numbers.

In that case, just, don't fight sentients. The mechanic is not sh*t, your refusal to play the game as it has been designed is sh*t. Consider fighting a high level Bombard, without using corrosive, hunter munitions/viral combo, or heat. Yes armor scaling is wack, but you would actively be ignoring the solutions, which are not hard to use. Your sheer annoyance, and ignorance, towards a mechanic that has been implemented for years, is what is making it annoying. Operator mode is not bad. Your Operator, if built correctly, can be just as powerful as your warframe.

Get yourself a shwaak amp, and suddenly the group resistances are all gone. Or void dash through them, and reposition at the same time. The issue is your refusal to use a mechanic, not the actual enemies. Again, the sentient adaptation loop is not difficult. Resistance stripping is the easiest part of killing them. Because you cannot start any mission with sentients, without carrying a tool to strip their resistances.

[SordidDreams]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

In that case, just, don't fight sentients.

I'd love nothing more, unfortunately DE keep putting more and more of them into the game.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

The mechanic is not sh*t, your refusal to play the game as it has been designed is sh*t.

What part of "other way around" did you not understand?

7 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Consider fighting a high level Bombard, without using corrosive, hunter munitions/viral combo, or heat. Yes armor scaling is wack, but you would actively be ignoring the solutions, which are not hard to use.

The key difference is that the solutions to bombards are also the solutions to everything else. Armor scaling is actually good for the game, because it allows you to just leave your guns modded for grineer, and the other factions die easily too because they're so much weaker. If there's anything that would 100% make me drop warframe, it would be having to go to the arsenal to reshuffle the mods on all my gear before every mission. If the rumored damage rework equalizes the factions and forces us to actually keep swapping elemental combos all the time, this game is dead.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Operator mode is not bad. Your Operator, if built correctly, can be just as powerful as your warframe.

Lol, no, that's all that needs to be said about that.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Again, the sentient adaptation loop is not difficult.

Again, what part of "annoying, not difficult" did you not understand?

Edited February 21, 2020 by SordidDreams