I don't like the sentients (Edited)

[buffalobuffalogaming]

 

5 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

And there's also no reason for their hitbox to be this bad. Now if these enemies would be just minibosses, I wouldn't give a S#&$. But in the New War we have to fight against a lot of these #*!%ers and that is a problem. Because fighting more than just 3 at a time is just tedious. And unfun. On the Sentient ship we have to kill 30 and after the 10th ship I just rather tear my eyes out honestly.

• The New War is not here yet, I suggest you don't presume anything.
• The sentient mission is optional, The reward is trivial, You don't have to do it if it's too boring.
• You could keep swearing at them all day if It makes you feel better. But I don't recommend it, it's a waste of time.
   

[JackHargreav]

2 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

 

• The New War is not here yet, I suggest you don't presume anything.
• The sentient mission is optional, The reward is trivial, You don't have to do it if it's too boring.
• You could keep swearing at them all day if It makes you feel better. But I don't recommend it, it's a waste of time.
   

Right.

Now excuse me as I do the very opposite of what you just said.

#*!%ing sentients.

[Corvid]

9 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

The New War is not here yet, I suggest you don't presume anything.

Actually, the New War started when Empyrean launched. As DE have said, it's not just a quest, but a multi-stage campaign that will dominate this year.

9 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

The sentient mission is optional, The reward is trivial, You don't have to do it if it's too boring.

Before too long, more Sentient-based missions are going to be added, and they will likely be necessary for story progress. Better to bring up problems now so they can be solved before they become a major issue, no?

Also, just saying "It's optional" doesn't excuse faulty hurtboxes. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Corvid

[JackHargreav]

1 hour ago, ssxtriki said:

so if they make the hit box larger that would make you happy?

im confused cause all i see is:  their sh1t, dumb mechanics, hard to kill, small hit box, no fun

and no suggestions 

 

3 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

I hope they don't. Or at least make 10 more sentient units and give give them some better AI.

Make them try to corner me. Gang up on me. Just attack me like their life depends on it. Then I will be fine with them. Currently they are just some flying bricks shooting the player when they feel like it.

 

[Ham_Grenabe]

Unless DE is just phoning it in, they'll introduce sentients that will work more or less just like the fodder enemies in other factions: you kill them by the truckload, with passive abilities, random melee hits, and by like, bullet jumping near them. No adaptation compensation required. I doubt they'll drop current battalysts/conculysts/whateveralysts into the game by the hundreds and call it a day - they're not designed to appear in hordes, and so there will probably be some sort of gruntalysts that make up the rank and file. 

To do otherwise would be roughly the equivalent of making every enemy in a mission, I dunno, something like a heavy gunner: an increase in mission time with no particular increase in difficulty. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe
typo

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I dont hate them, I just have fought them before in borderlands and a few other games so its nothing new

now aberrations, that I hate

[Corvid]

12 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Unless DE is just phoning it in, they'll introduce sentients that will work more or less just like the fodder enemies in other factions: you kill them by the truckload, with passive abilities, random melee hits, and by like, bullet jumping near them. No adaptation compensation required. I doubt they'll drop current battalysts/conculysts/whateveralysts into the game by the hundreds and call it a day - they're not designed to appear in hordes, and so there will probably be some sort of gruntalysts that make up the rank and file. 

To do otherwise would be roughly the equivalent of making every enemy in a mission, I dunno, something like a heavy gunner: an increase in mission time with no particular increase in difficulty. 

That's what I thought they were going to do back when the Second Dream came out, but aside from Vomvalysts and Brachiolysts, every Sentient enemy that's been shown in development has been either on par with the existing units (With the exception of the Mimics, which I still think are a bit strong to be mooks) or stronger.

As it is now, I can only hope that the Sentient forces are going to be mainly comprised of Amalgams (particularly the secret variants in the sealed labs) with pure form Sentients being more rare. The presence of Alkonost models in the Sentient tileset is a large part of why I'm currently in "wait and see" mode regarding the faction, rather than vocally criticising them every waking moment.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Corvid

[Ham_Grenabe]

8 minutes ago, Corvid said:

That's what I thought they were going to do back when the Second Dream came out, but aside from Vomvalysts and Brachiolysts, every Sentient enemy that's been shown in development has been either on par with the existing units (With the exception of the Mimics, which I still think are a bit strong to be mooks) or stronger.

True. However, with the teaser trailers of floods of enemies coming in and the whole "war" premise I am about 95% sure we're going to see gruntalysts that we just kill like we kill grineer lancers and corpus crewmen. And I'll be surprised (and disappointed) if it's not that way, due to the time-sink nature fighting large numbers of them as-presently-designed would be (especially at higher levels...no idea where the "New War" stuff will start, but level 90 sentients are kind of like, "bring a lunch").

On the other hand, DE is about time sinks, and there are ways around the need to develop a grunt sentient -- for instance, they could just enthrall whatever enemy faction is on the board at the time, so the grunts in the game remain the Grineer, Corpus, and Infested. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[Vox_Preliator]

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Lore < Gameplay at the end of the day.

If something's making the game less fun - in this case, Sentients being frustrating to hit even though you aimed at it properly, then that's just poor design, punishing you for doing something right.

See, that's the thing, if you're aiming at a Sentient's center of mass, then you're not aiming properly.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

44 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I'd love nothing more, unfortunately DE keep putting more and more of them into the game.

Because, say it with me, they are the major antagonist.

45 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

What part of "other way around" did you not understand?

You have been provided with reasons, in lore, that prevent an 'other way around' from existing. DE has provided you with weapons that present a 'other way around'. You can vary your builds so that your weapons deal different damage types, that is a viable 'other way around'. There are options.

48 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

The key difference is that the solutions to bombards are also the solutions to everything else. Armor scaling is actually good for the game, because it allows you to just leave your guns modded for grineer, and the other factions die easily too because they're so much weaker. If there's anything that would 100% make me drop warframe, it would be having to go to the arsenal to reshuffle the mods on all my gear before every mission. If the rumored damage rework equalizes the factions and forces us to actually keep swapping elemental combos all the time, this game is dead.

So making the other enemy factions an actual threat will make the game die? Really? You know, on each of your weapons, there are three config options. You can have a grineer selection, corpus, and... tbh, you won't need an infested one. I'm really starting to see that the issue lies less in there being ways around the sentient resistances, more you're just too lazy to actively build your weapons so that you can skip the parts you want to.

51 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Lol, no, that's all that needs to be said about that.

How much time have you actually put into your Operator? Arcanes, abilities, way-bounds all grant different possibilities. Zenurik leads to a jack of all trades, Madurai for high damage, Unairu for a more offensive support structure, Vazarin for a supportive Operator, and Naramon for speed and melee focused combat. Unairu's Armour strip is actually more effective than a lot of other options, and is surprisingly powerful.

55 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Again, what part of "annoying, not difficult" did you not understand?

Again, you have more options, but you are clearly too ignorant and lazy to actually make use of them. The operator is the easiest, quickest method that interferes least with your gameplay, but as you have show a considerable ignorance to the actual uses of them, then I have provided you with other options above, but because those options require "swapping elemental combos" I assume they're out too, since obviously, you can't change mods of the EXACT same cost around.

[Ham_Grenabe]

Just now, Vox_Preliator said:

See, that's the thing, if you're aiming at a Sentient's center of mass, then you're not aiming properly.

The lesson to be learned here is "If the front aspect of the projectile isn't at least as large as the enemy's body, you're using the wrong gun." 😄

[Loza03]

Just now, Vox_Preliator said:

See, that's the thing, if you're aiming at a Sentient's center of mass, then you're not aiming properly.

What, pray tell, am I supposed to shoot at?

I don't believe their arms take damage (and if they do, they fall off removing them as a target anyway). Their legs isn't exactly a logical target and their 'head' is right above that giant hole in their torso, which I remind  you, is their centre of mass.

[akrid45]

This and many other threads has proven that the community clearly doesn't want difficultly in warframe. 

Now regarding sentients

U guys realize that the sentients in the ship are level 100 just because they are in the veil which is why they are so tanky. Obviously not all the sentient ships or whatever released in the future will be at that same level and will most likely be at a lower level. Just because they are level 100 in the veil doesn't mean they are going to start being that level for the rest of the new war. 

Also who the F said that they will have 100 sentients exterminates? 

[(XBOX)anonymousx6x]

3 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Operator is part of the game. A major part. It's not even like you have to use only your operator. just pop out, blast em, done. Your refusal to utilize a major mechanic is the issue.

The lore, and gameplay of the Sentients are designed around the operator. This isn't going to change soon.

Exactly. It's like swapping a weapon to me. 

[HugintheCrow]

19 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Also I don't get why in the SD quest my Operator was so good against them. What was the point of making the operator so OP in that one single mission when she/he does absolutely no damage to them later on?

Uhhh, you might wanna upgrade your amp, I easily chunk the sentients that spawn in lua or (recently) neptune for like 1/3 of health with each shot.

[ssxtriki]

16 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

What, pray tell, am I supposed to shoot at?

I don't believe their arms take damage (and if they do, they fall off removing them as a target anyway). Their legs isn't exactly a logical target and their 'head' is right above that giant hole in their torso, which I remind  you, is their centre of mass.

The *ahem* below torso part  always works

Edited February 21, 2020 by ssxtriki

[Corvid]

26 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

See, that's the thing, if you're aiming at a Sentient's center of mass, then you're not aiming properly.

Why not? That's where the Oro is, and it can be hurt like any other part of their body. The problem is that the hurtbox for a large portion of their midsection is flat out absent. Or to put it in simpler terms, the bullets you fire can be aimed perfectly at the enemy's model, travel straight through it, and still deal no damage.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

Because, say it with me, they are the major antagonist.

Most games make the major antagonist fun to fight, not an annoying slog. Bear in mind that I've been advocating for making this game more of a challenge for ages. Spongy enemies and wonky hitboxes aren't a challenge. They're tedious. When I walk into a new arena and see a half dozen Sentient fighters coming at me, I'm not excited by the prospect of a difficult fight, I'm mentally shutting off to cope with the boredom.

Not helped by the fact that despite their varied weapons, there's only one real way to effectively fight them which doesn't vary from foe to foe: Lock them in place with CC, shoot or hit them until they adapt, reset adaptation, rinse repeat ad nauseum. They aren't a challenging fight, they're the worst excesses of tedious enemy design that the game has to offer.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

You have been provided with reasons, in lore, that prevent an 'other way around' from existing.

1: The lore can just as easily be used as a reason to make them trivial to fight. Mirage tearing through hordes of Sentients with her bare hands, anyone?

2: You're missing the point. When he says "The other way around", he means the mechanic is badly done so he doesn't use it (As opposed to what you were saying, which was that he was bad because he didn't use it.). I personally enjoy using my operator, and I still don't like how they're implemented in Sentient fights. It breaks the flow of the battle to have to press 5 every 3 seconds to deal with every single enemy.

7 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

This and many other threads has proven that the community clearly doesn't want difficultly in warframe.

Tedium =/= Challenge.

7 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

U guys realize that the sentients in the ship are level 100 just because they are in the veil which is why they are so tanky. Obviously not all the sentient ships or whatever released in the future will be at that same level and will most likely be at a lower level. Just because they are level 100 in the veil doesn't mean they are going to start being that level for the rest of the new war. 

Without any information to the contrary, we are forced to go by what we know now.

All of the recent updates have made use of excessively high enemy levels, so we can only speculate based on the current trends.

4 minutes ago, (XB1)anonymousx6x said:

Exactly. It's like swapping a weapon to me. 

So you enjoy switching weapons multiple times per enemy?

Edited February 21, 2020 by Corvid

[Ham_Grenabe]

8 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

U guys realize that the sentients in the ship are level 100 just because they are in the veil which is why they are so tanky. Obviously not all the sentient ships or whatever released in the future will be at that same level and will most likely be at a lower level. Just because they are level 100 in the veil doesn't mean they are going to start being that level for the rest of the new war. 

Also who the F said that they will have 100 sentients exterminates? 

So the options vary really widely - almost infinitely - with what you could do with sentient missions. But realistically, what are we looking at?

1. Everything is like Lua - fighting the grinner/infested/corpus, with a few sentients showing up to be pests every time. Maybe a sentient Wolf-type boss. 

2. Sentients replace the enemy on that node, as an occupying force. 

3. Sentients show up in small numbers but "sentientize" the local faction, so we fight amalgams. 

4. DE breaks the mold and comes up with some new mission types that are just perfect for sentient fighting.

 

I'm not putting my money on 4, and we already have 1. I'm pretty sure we're mostly going to get the normal mission modes with sentient enemies, and maybe some operations or events that are different. And yes, absolutely, a level 5 Sentient Exterminate would be trivial. I suspect it'll be more railjack-ish, though, in how they scale things. It's what DE knows. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, ssxtriki said:

The *ahem* below torso part  can never go wrong

Oh, you mean the part that doesn't have a proper hurtbox, as I've already mentioned.

[(XBOX)anonymousx6x]

3 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

How is the mechanic sh*it? If you don't want to use operator, you add difficulty, but that can be surpassed by use of weapons which serve the same purpose. At least one of which (Paracesis) is decent, I can't say much for the Shedu since I'm yet to get it. You can also round out your loadout for Sentient specific missions, or use a frame designed to kill sentients, umbra.
It is an in universe fact that this is the only way Sentients can be easily slain.

You make too much sense. 

[ssxtriki]

Just now, Corvid said:

Oh, you mean the part that doesn't have a proper hurtbox, as I've already mentioned.

if you shoot there nothing happens? 

[(XBOX)anonymousx6x]

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Why not? That's where the Oro is, and it can be hurt like any other part of their body. The problem is that the hurtbox for a large portion of their midsection is flat out absent. Or to put it in simpler terms, the bullets you fire can be aimed perfectly at the enemy's model, travel straight through it, and still deal no damage.

Most games make the major antagonist fun to fight, not an annoying slog. Bear in mind that I've been advocating for making this game more of a challenge for ages. Spongy enemies and wonky hitboxes aren't a challenge. They're tedious. When I walk into a new arena and see a half dozen Sentient fighters coming at me, I'm not excited by the prospect of a difficult fight, I'm mentally shutting off to cope with the boredom.

Not helped by the fact that despite their varied weapons, there's only one real way to effectively fight them which doesn't vary from foe to foe: Lock them in place with CC, shoot or hit them until they adapt, reset adaptation, rinse repeat ad nauseum. They aren't a challenging fight, they're the worst excesses of tedious enemy design that the game has to offer.

1: The lore can just as easily be used as a reason to make them trivial to fight. Mirage tearing through hordes of Sentients with her bare hands, anyone?

2: You're missing the point. When he says "The other way around", he means the mechanic is badly done so he doesn't use it (As opposed to what you were saying, which was that he was bad because he didn't use it.). I personally enjoy using my operator, and I still don't like how they're implemented in Sentient fights. It breaks the flow of the battle to have to press 5 every 3 seconds to deal with every single enemy.

Tedium =/= Challenge.

Without any information to the contrary, we are forced to go by what we know now.

All of the recent updates have made use of excessively high enemy levels, so we can only speculate based on the current trends.

So you enjoy switching weapons multiple times per enemy?

Only need to do it twice at most. Magus Lockdown and I bring a loadout for mission type. 

[(PSN)grayscale358]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Oh, you mean the part that doesn't have a proper hurtbox, as I've already mentioned.

Honestly, the hurtbox should be fixed. I can't disagree there, I mean, if I can swing a sword at them and watch it pass right through, there is an issue.

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, ssxtriki said:

if you shoot there nothing happens? 

It's unreliable. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've had cases where my sword swings horizontally through their midsection and fails to register a hit, even though it blatantly passed through their model.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, ssxtriki said:

The *ahem* below torso part  always works

Oh, you mean the bit that also has a hole in it? The sentient's bodies are tuning fork shaped. It's not as easy to see from this angle, but there's a hole there too.

It's not like it's impossible to make sentients that have proper profiles either, I don't have issues with the Symbiliysts in this respect, or the Alkonost. 

Note that whilst they still have gaunt designs, they both have larger areas that can be aimed at. The Symbilist has its head shape droop down over the hole in its torso.