[Action Gameplay] Improving Warframe's Challenge and Overall Game, What To Do with 2.0 Parkour & classic 1.0 Parkour, or A Hybrid of Both (no coptering) (suggestion thread) [ Current Warframe is NOT an Action Game, but just a mod card-deck builder]

[L4D3M]

[Edit: Thread name changed to include Parkour 2.0 more. I'll elaborate on this more seriously in my 4th post, and this first post is a little outdated because I've stopped trying to shift the blame on 2.0 as much as long as there will be things or enemies that counter some of it and hold you in a fight (and during the middle of a mission, not just at the end)
The actual idea I want to propagate now, besides adequate challenges that can hold you in zones, is combining 2.0 with 1.0 parkour and being able to say, toggle wall-runs by hold both the jump and sprint key, or binding any key to choose between wall-hops and clean vertical / very long horizontal wall-runs. This could add a load of more freedom to the current parkour system as well as compliment the tricks you could pull off in the previous' map design. Though double jumping might possibly be better than the vertical run, there were loads the horizontal one could do by sticking to walls for the whole way.]
[Edit#2: My 6th post has more Story, Gameplay and Field Event / Mission / Level Design related ideas.]
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[Edit#3: My 8th post talks about current Warframe not being an action game, but rather a card-deck building game, and hints at powerful ways to build an actual action game, parts of balance not to upset, and how to make gameplay work like the fantasy that's expected when portraying it on a minute of advertised footage. PlatinumGames, Bayonetta, and Doom Eternal also brought up. How to fix Warframe's current action gameplay being too shallow to compete with anything and respect map design.]

Movement is intrinsic to an action game's difficulty, since everything you do is from the
center of your character

If you added difficulty options, they might as well be: Easy (2.0 Parkour), Hard (1.0 Parkour).
2.0 Parkour even feels like a special ability you'd need to conserve energy for, it's that
overpowering.

Here's someone else's Youtube video I found depicting just how cool 1.0 parkour is.

So some people want to go so fast that they forget that there are new players who want a challenge
That content you're always looking to give players might just be all the maps flying by them because
of all the bullet jumps you're making everyone doing, but you could separate players into different
classes: one that's superman, and one that is better at something like hacking certain enemy tech
before getting opportunities to teleport to the 2.0 parkour users.

I rarely log on, but the current version of Warframe feels like I'm playing something like Superman 64
with a collateral damage meter, since missions where you protect other objectives are harder than ones
where you just protect yourself. I'd like to climb my way to better positions / cover / highground
rather than successfully easy insta-find cover with my lv 6 volt vs lv 35 enemies and play peekaboo all day.

Players who will find the big challenge they want at the start of other games won't here if they start with
2.0 parkour. I like enemy AI better when they're more accurate, make me consider my movement, which clusters
I should melee and which I should make sure I have a piece of cover between me and them at the moment (more
interesting when it's map geometry I find than a shield bubble). I want to platform not by finishing the mission in
only a second with just spin-jumps, but by tightrope walking and with precarious, precise, stylish looking
movement. I want to pull off those tricks and also have them aid me in combat.

And if you make any more phenomenal systems / AI / story content / gameplay to add to the game, I'd advise,
don't just splurge all on making it a repetitive thing players can keep observing / performing all of all day. Show
something cool for a moment, then hide it for later so that players have something to progress to if they
really want to see or do that thing again. Conserve. Conserve. Conserve. Something like 1.0 parkour
needs to be always accessible though, because that's your meaty playloop. That's like Archwing in space
missions, it works because the levels are built for it, while interior levels are built for 1.0 parkour.

I'm not insisting getting rid of 2.0 parkour, but giving an avenue for 1.0 and calling it the awesome
challenging hard mode it is would be spectacular, as well as it would give the gameplay back to this game.
This could work for console versions if you just have a 180 turn button or move-assist to thin walls for running
up

An alternative could be players self-imposing no double-jump or bullet-jump challenges, but it seems like
that has a low chance of happening, and wall-hopping doesn't seem very effective.

Also almost forgot to mention mid-air aim slowmo. That's pretty high-powered too because it lowers enemy
accuracy and has infinite use. I wouldn't want to use it much.

Edited May 18, 2020 by L4D3M

[taiiat]

i want the game to Challenge me with stuff, but there's no chance in hell i'm taking og Parkour over what we have now.
because Player Movement was just far less dynamic than it is now. there was less effort i could put into the system, more time spent waiting to arrive at the destination (like how Railjack is now, just hold W and wait, haHAA).

it just wouldn't make sense for me to intentionally pick a system that gives me less tools to work with. it'll mean i spend more time repeating the very few tools that i do have, because that's all i can do.

 

though give Air Melee Acceleration back, pls. it even needs it anyways since Air Melee is straight useless now that it doesn't apply forward Acceleration, it can't hit Enemies even right in front of you.

Edited May 7, 2020 by taiiat

[L4D3M]

24 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i want the game to Challenge me with stuff, but there's no chance in hell i'm taking og Parkour over what we have now.
because Player Movement was just far less dynamic than it is now. there was less effort i could put into the system, more time spent waiting to arrive at the destination (like how Railjack is now, just hold W and wait, haHAA).

Totally why it could be better as an optional system balanced with teleporting and maybe alternate paths. This is a very good system I and many others would want to be able to choose to use, and maybe it yielding as many rewards as 2.0 would work too. It's the only fun I found in Warframe either way, Frame abilities just being the icing. 2.0 screams something far less agile than being a ninja to me as well. Other people can use it, I wouldn't. 1.0 being the only thing resembling more realistic parkour would make this the first if not only parkour and melee intense looter game as well, and complete the shooty, melee, movement trifecta the gameplay once had.

Rewards or not, I want to choose my type of gameplay experience. Instead of being instantly there there and cutting / shooting everything up in an instant, I can use the map to its fullest potential and calculate all the paths I could take vs the swarming AI, my pathing against theirs while running along various structures in fancy set-pieces, loading my adventure with this Indiana-Jones type feeling / gameplay and thinking on my toes all the time, taking out and ambushing / surprising smaller clusters of enemies at a time and making it feel like a real battle where I have to work to navigate the map smartly and avoid getting shot too much with an enraged / alarmed army on my tail. This surely can't just be thrown away entirely. It's such gold. How can a dev team throw something this amazing away, and if it fits so well? I'll never understand. With 1.0 movement, I could play this forever.

It's hard to think of another feature or gimmick this addictive as well because moving is such a natural thing to do and will always look good on a screen. Game has this slightly Tactical, somewhat Power Ranger feel, but DE took out a big huge portion of the Ninja feel for some reason, and it needs to come back, for just the people who want it at least.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

No ones forced to parkour. If you wanna go slow then go slow. We're already used to waiting at extraction anyway.

Learn how to manage your behavior instead of trying to change it for everyone.

[L4D3M]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

No ones forced to parkour. If you wanna go slow then go slow. We're already used to waiting at extraction anyway.

Learn how to manage your behavior instead of trying to change it for everyone.

That's totally why it's optional. Bits of realism are good for marketing, and that's why there are people who steer away from MMOs with too much spell-casting and bad melee animations, because there's no logical real-world action to connect them to it. It's more immersive to some, and I'm not trying to change anyone else's behavior. Having those things in helps, just like some people might enjoy the Spy missions or setting up their Mod builds. This would just be enjoying the emergent / procedural action gameplay. Even suggested teleporting or portal routes to balance 1.0 and 2.0 users with each other.

It's the difference between 'I want to be a rebel and do one little hop at a time' and 'I want to do what this or that half of people are doing because they're either speedy or have lots of cool animations'. You can imagine how much more popular the last two options are than the first, and which you'd rather market, rather than expect people to spend days being extremely finnicky and studious in order to figure out how to find the challenge they want, if it's even there. The first would be the weirdest way to play a multiplayer / co-op game as well, and wouldn't fit in any kind of discussion.

Edited May 7, 2020 by L4D3M

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, L4D3M said:

I can use the map to its fullest potential and calculate all the paths I could take vs the swarming AI, my pathing against theirs while running along various structures in fancy set-pieces, loading my adventure with this Indiana-Jones type feeling / gameplay and thinking on my toes all the time, taking out and ambushing / surprising smaller clusters of enemies at a time and making it feel like a real battle where I have to work to navigate the map smartly and avoid getting shot too much with an enraged / alarmed army on my tail.

Parkour as it is lets you do exactly that - you're just not restricted to only waist high walls and hiding around corners to exploit Punch-Through or 3rd person Camera advantages.
instead you can use... basically anything anywhere in the game as useful Terrain. you can break LoS with any Terrain floor to Ceiling, you can flank from... well, any position rather than only from the same Horzontal plane through a specific path, Et Cetera.

whatever tactical maneuvers you're thinking of doing, you have more of them that you can do with Parkour.

 

again, i want the game to actually Challenge me with stuff, but having less Player Mobility tools doesn't make the game more challenging, it just makes me Cast more Abilities to disable Enemies and corner cheese more. because with far less Player Movement tools, those are the tools that are left. infinite CC and physical obstructions. basically kiting Enemies until they die.

2 hours ago, L4D3M said:

but DE took out a big huge portion of the Ninja feel for some reason, and it needs to come back, for just the people who want it at least.

Player Movement is more 'ninja' than ever before. we can change Velocity vector mid air, crawl along almost any surface (can't quite scuttle along the Ceiling like a Spider, alas), you name it we can do it.
i think you're thinking of strictly Realism and so what Ninjas actually did in History as being constrained by the Laws of Physics - rather than what Ninjas have represented in the past 50 or more years, which is an exaggerated, Laws of Physics defying.... 'war dance'.

if you do want 'Realism' - are you sure you're in quite the right place anyways? every single Warframe defies the Laws of Physics by its existence, and plenty of the Weapons do too for that matter.
you probably do want what you say you want - but - i think Parkour already offers you what you want.

Edited May 7, 2020 by taiiat

[Veridian]

1 hour ago, L4D3M said:

there are people who steer away from MMOs with too much spell-casting and bad melee animations, because there's no logical real-world action to connect them to it.

Are there any who look for realism in a game with space ninja tecno-virus mass murdering physics defying robots?

A game doesn't evolve by removing mechanics, which the majority would confirm is what makes a game unique. It's by adding mechanics that challenge said thing. 

[zakaryx]

It's so sad that the revamped Jupiter tileset was made with Parkour in mind, but can be completely bypassed by void dashing a few times through everything. I'd love to see a nightmare mode revamp though where bullet jumping and operator abilities were disabled. All the neat scenery and little details on every map are typically missed because you're flying past so damned fast.

Making enemies that can keep up with us would be a better way to go about it though imo.

[L4D3M]

Here's the problem: Money.

In order to make 2.0 Parkour more challenging, you could add loads of more chaos to the surroundings of players, more arrows indicating threats around the screen before you take damage, tons of explosions going off in mid-air, turrets that set off and start challenging players who spend too much time in mid-air, tougher mini-boss type enemies with much larger areas of danger around them than your typical shield-bubbles.

In order to make the game more challenging and entertaining, you'd need a choose-your-own-difficulty slider (individual ones for how much of your max damage / health you want to keep?), missions that don't require you to tank way more damage during the finale than the rest of the journey (you don't want to mindlessly grind and not be challenged until that tiny little bit of work at the end either, you want the whole thing to still be challenging while not having the coded rules at the end make it physically impossible for any human to complete with a build that makes it challenging). You'd probably also want to have common-to-rare fun random in-mission events that increase in content as your progress in the overall game and generate in-mission enemies and allies with easily written bits of story or info on them, and generally more things that easily make missions more fun (fun is subjective) instead of just more completable just because you want to get it over with. You would need to have giant mini-bosses every few beats just to compliment the scale you're experiencing the game at with Parkour 2.0, and / or a way for normal enemies to wrangle you into some fights. Random and quick optional assassinate / sniping / hacking / protect / thing-collecting side objectives with a lot of flavor text and a few new assets spread throughout them can prevent a lot of rooms from being wasted. That's how easily content can be made, especially if a lot of it is text or a tease for / foreshadowing of bigger things / story events (things that encourage you to feel like you're playing a part of a story) along a progression path. And although this has a tiny bit less to do with parkour or challenge, you especially want a lot of things happening around the beginning of your game in order for player incentive to play to gain traction, and for those first few mission / level themes, designs and story-beats to be pretty unique and have some degree of open-endedness / nonlinearity.

DE can't give fun challenges and experiences like this right from the start of the game without their own challenges because of the game's very own free-to-play, pay-to-gain-faster model. If someone has lots of fun at the start but decides on a whim that they don't want the rest, that's money lost. A different type of model and / or lots of focus on this game's core themes and gameplay would make improving this game much easier. Quality in writing, even in small things, is also something necessary that often gets overlooked in game design as well.

Unless you're playing something like Survival, you're engaging with just the exits of each room more than the elements within the room, and that is at the forefront of a new player's experience before realizing they might have been duped into purely playing a racing game against other players, in which case an actual racing video game might be more suited for that kind of play, or a bunnyhop obstacle course modded into another game (optional non-linear obstacle-course areas would actually really suit parkour).

There's loads of things you could do with both systems at the same time, or even combine them into one that can keybind to moves from both without hindering the use of someone who wants to stick with just one. You could give 1.0 an optional speed boost. You could have alternate paths and portals and give 1.0 users an option to shorten their part in a mission or extend the mission for 2.0 users with random added objectives if they choose to take them.

You could have a plot bandaid like 'Exerting too many 2.0 moves emits a detectable radiation that triggers harsh security systems set up in this optional side-path,' or something better.

Think of it as an advanced mouse sensitivity slider, but with movement speed and pacing / flavor settings instead.

Not everyone wants things on a large scale, and some people want to choose to increase the difficulty of specifically their own experience of the game (that's why bullet-hells and rhythm games are popular) purely for that reason, and have no big need for detailed graphics to even be attached to that game. Pressing lots of buttons, performing and applying a handful or more of flavored tactical moves / attacks / decisions, and a mix of twitchy and slightly slower but more calculated reactions are all that are needed to make a game good for some people. The reason why maps / rooms / 3D or 2D spaces exist in games is because not everything can be balanced like a card game. For some people even, challenge is just difficulty or eye-hand coordination. At the end of the day, you probably need a really good play-tester to face your game's level set to its worst odds to see if it's still completable with an obtainable build, and ask them to rate the experience.

2.0 certainly does look a bit fun, but only currently challenges when it has a chance to shine (A.K.A. the game throwing everything it has at you in a Survival mission maybe).

What challenges in video games really are of course, are things that throw parts and bits of real difficulty your way while teasing the illusion of difficulty much of the way. If there's an enemy type with a new weakness, everything around becomes more difficult as you struggle to learn what it is. A player will try to calculate how much damage common enemy swarms do or how dangerous they are while they're exposed to see what they can get away with. RNG plays a very important role in fun as long as it can often be reacted to, especially in a PVE game.

An enemy sniper who telegraphs a random amount of 1 to 10 devastating well-led first shots that have to be dodged or covered against will provide a map navigation challenge which temporarily somewhat cuts off a part of the map to you (until you can find and out-damage them), while an agile enemy who bullet-jumps as much as you but has low offense will provide an aiming challenge. You could even trap players inside a temporary bubble to test their smaller movements on rare occasions.

14 hours ago, taiiat said:

Player Movement is more 'ninja' than ever before. we can change Velocity vector mid air, crawl along almost any surface (can't quite scuttle along the Ceiling like a Spider, alas), you name it we can do it.
i think you're thinking of strictly Realism and so what Ninjas actually did in History as being constrained by the Laws of Physics - rather than what Ninjas have represented in the past 50 or more years, which is an exaggerated, Laws of Physics defying.... 'war dance'.

14 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

Are there any who look for realism in a game with space ninja tecno-virus mass murdering physics defying robots?

I meant in the pop-movie sense, but I was just trying to argue for the sake of gameplay. Plus, that horizontal wall-run is so smooth and carries so much on its own that I want to toggle to it. Basically goes anywhere it's aligned to. I'm starting to think that a hybrid of both systems that easily let you pick or keybind maneuvers from either could work pretty well, and just that without any added bells whistles

14 hours ago, zakaryx said:

It's so sad that the revamped Jupiter tileset was made with Parkour in mind, but can be completely bypassed by void dashing a few times through everything. I'd love to see a nightmare mode revamp though where bullet jumping and operator abilities were disabled. All the neat scenery and little details on every map are typically missed because you're flying past so damned fast.

Making enemies that can keep up with us would be a better way to go about it though imo.

A bit tricky to make them equal without making them demi-gods or like other warframes, imo.

Edited May 8, 2020 by L4D3M

[taiiat]

what are you talking about. we have a wide Range of Missions. since making Misisons overall more difficult but also more engaging is by having more features to manage, well, we already do that in Missions by introducing harder Enemy Types as the Levels go up (and a Mission represents progressing further).

there's no reason that we can't have more of that, in more ways.

 

15 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

Plus, that horizontal wall-run is so smooth and carries so much on its own that I want to toggle to it. Basically goes anywhere it's aligned to.

okay yes, pretty much everyone has always agreed that the old Wallrun looked better, even with the current one being objectively more flexible to Terrain.

[Felsagger]

On 2020-05-07 at 2:24 AM, L4D3M said:

Edit: Thread name changed to include Parkour 2.0 more. I'll elaborate on this more seriously in my 4th post.

Movement is intrinsic to an action game's difficulty, since everything you do is from the
center of your character

If you added difficulty options, they might as well be: Easy (2.0 Parkour), Hard (1.0 Parkour).
2.0 Parkour even feels like a special ability you'd need to conserve energy for, it's that
overpowering.

Here's someone else's Youtube video I found depicting just how cool 1.0 parkour is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86DFeTqLp3s

So some people want to go so fast that they forget that there are new players who want a challenge
That content you're always looking to give players might just be all the maps flying by them because
of all the bullet jumps you're making everyone doing, but you could separate players into different
classes: one that's superman, and one that is better at something like hacking certain enemy tech
before getting opportunities to teleport to the 2.0 parkour users.

I rarely log on, but the current version of Warframe feels like I'm playing something like Superman 64
with a collateral damage meter, since missions where you protect other objectives are harder than ones
where you just protect yourself. I'd like to climb my way to better positions / cover / highground
rather than successfully easy insta-find cover with my lv 6 volt vs lv 35 enemies and play peekaboo all day.

Players who will find the big challenge they want at the start of other games won't here if they start with
2.0 parkour. I like enemy AI better when they're more accurate, make me consider my movement, which clusters
I should melee and which I should make sure I have a piece of cover between me and them at the moment (more
interesting when it's map geometry I find than a shield bubble). I want to platform not by finishing the mission in
only a second with just spin-jumps, but by tightrope walking and with precarious, precise, stylish looking
movement. I want to pull off those tricks and also have them aid me in combat.

And if you make any more phenomenal systems / AI / story content / gameplay to add to the game, I'd advise,
don't just splurge all on making it a repetitive thing players can keep observing / performing all of all day. Show
something cool for a moment, then hide it for later so that players have something to progress to if they
really want to see or do that thing again. Conserve. Conserve. Conserve. Something like 1.0 parkour
needs to be always accessible though, because that's your meaty playloop. That's like Archwing in space
missions, it works because the levels are built for it, while interior levels are built for 1.0 parkour.

I'm not insisting getting rid of 2.0 parkour, but giving an avenue for 1.0 and calling it the awesome
challenging hard mode it is would be spectacular, as well as it would give the gameplay back to this game.
This could work for console versions if you just have a 180 turn button or move-assist to thin walls for running
up

An alternative could be players self-imposing no double-jump or bullet-jump challenges, but it seems like
that has a low chance of happening, and wall-hopping doesn't seem very effective.

Also almost forgot to mention mid-air aim slowmo. That's pretty high-powered too because it lowers enemy
accuracy and has infinite use. I wouldn't want to use it much.

Ok fine this is Genji style. I like it a lot but then we have this: 

And this: 

I'm glad that you are focusing on the game play mechanics movement of Warframe. Having Wall run is something missing in our latest parkour system. A switch between modes would be awesome augmenting the toolkit of maneuvers. 

[L4D3M]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Ok fine this is Genji style. I like it a lot but then we have this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lUoA9q0jnM

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_hfIlO8f90

I'm glad that you are focusing on the game play mechanics movement of Warframe. Having Wall run is something missing in our latest parkour system. A switch between modes would be awesome augmenting the toolkit of maneuvers. 

Yeah totally. Let's keep all of 2.0 (though if unhindered, it makes increasing the game's difficulty a little more challenging), and throw in a toggle for 1.0 horizontal wall-runs that can basically stick to any wall forever and provide loads more freedom. A keybind if you want it to be a separate key, and a toggle for whether sprint + jump switches to wall-hops or wall-runs. Maybe even vertical wall-runs might have a use for going directly up. There's probably plenty of long distance areas in old interior maps that align perfectly to a situation where you'd pull off a horizontal wall-run from a platform you're on.

I was stuck arguing for my favorite thing a lot before, but this route works really well, and bullet jumps are pretty fun when there's something to challenge them and they don't dominate every scenario.

Edited May 8, 2020 by L4D3M

[L4D3M]

Since the game has a lot of procedural generation, you'd want to add a lot of Roguelike / Roguelite things. You could add 40 or more simple side-objectives that have half a chance of appearing per mission. Field bosses are great (assassins and other RNG spawns). You actually want bits of story associated with all these random in-missions occurances / events, they need to be full of character so you have a game with a bunch of different things going on, they can be easy to write as long as they belong to some part of the game's universe (or not. You could even make a whole ton of them really fun and detached from any part of the main story). It could be an appearance-generated enemy type similar to any other type except it has a tiny backstory, spawns invincible for a time, and locks the room down until you kill surronding enemies, then it.

It doesn't have to stop at antagonist generation, you could curb the game's serious mood and have recurring ally characters break into the same mission area you do and ask you for help with things. You could also be given small objects to defend and acquire, perform heists on vaults in some loot-rooms, have someone like Darvo radio in and ask to do mini-excavations on planets.

You don't even need much voice acting or new character / asset designs. You can expand the story, themes and gameplay infinitely if you make characters talk in text, make a program that generates the rest of a room you design part of to give us pre-generated tiles, define tons of field-events you make with minor gameplay changes and minor asset reshapes / recolors, and make more and more rare field-events with more to them and maybe even little branching stories (random or player action based branching). There's tons of game you can make simply with the assets that already exist on it and making a lot of characters who talk in text only. You could simply add a beeping sound for heading to their next line of dialog, like many RPGs / JRGs do.

You could make some field events so rare that it takes a year for them to recur for a regularly visiting player, because that's how long they'd be playing anyway.

Anyone heard of a game called Doom Eternal? Let's base player / enemy damage on whether or not you can push a little variety into your playstyle. Yeah / No? I'd still personally like occasional situations that force you to conserve Bullet Jumping and Double Jumping so that you have learn to navigate way, way more of the map. People in this community keep wanting challenges, but only want more and more power until it's a version of God of War where Kratos only fights other gods and giants, and that gets boring pretty fast.

Hard mode seems like a good direction since it's currently being worked towards by DE. Moving isn't a problem for the player, and it would be really nice if enemies could snipe-and-instakill you if you Bullet Jump or Double Jump too much without dealing any damage to them because it and the 4-5 lives you get to have every mission make you effectively invincible for anything that doesn't require killing enemies (like I said, you're playing with Superman 64's collateral damage meter). A moving chart that makes you push a little bit of variety with melee/movement/ranged/sharpshooting-or-long-ranged combat to survive is just the sort of thing I'd personally find really, really fun, just like how those aimgraphs maybe kinda add something I guess. Also, the bullet-time slow-mo is still infinite and seemingly overpowered.

You're invincible until you start really fighting enemies your level instead of slipping past them, go anywhere as long as it isn't to fight anything, so parkour isn't the slightest bit challenging.

Edited May 10, 2020 by L4D3M

[Chicken-Biryani]

Old backward stuff isn't coming back ... No matter how much you spam for it. 

Why don't people get it? I do not understand. On second thoughts, it's better that I do not understand. 😅

[Chicken-Biryani]

18 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

so parkour isn't the slightest bit challenging.

If you are playing warframe to Parkour in a challenging way... How about playing a real freerunning game or something like that. 

I want to eat apples, but I want them to have the texture and taste of a watermelon! That's some really dumb sh!t right there. 

[L4D3M]

38 minutes ago, Nehra96 said:

If you are playing warframe to Parkour in a challenging way... How about playing a real freerunning game or something like that. 

I want to eat apples, but I want them to have the texture and taste of a watermelon! That's some really dumb sh!t right there. 

I figured that was the exact opposite of why people played Warframe, to have something more unique than the rest. If you can run while hitting a ball, you're playing Tennis. If you want to play Tennis and Dodge Ball at the same time, but it's also represented by a space ship battle / dogfight, then you're playing a video game. I thought that was the whole point of people playing video games in the first place, to have something different and unique rather than the same all the time. You could have the watermelon-apple you described in a fictional universe too, or anything when you use your imagination. There are absolutely no limits, and that really is the entire point of escapism.

[bad4youLT]

How about no agian? 

Warframe isint destiny, movement system is one of the defining aspects of this game, instead of trying change it inbrace it. 

Use system to chalange players who masterd it, we have plenty examples on how to like the lua spy panel wall latch puzle and as well as creative Tenno ideas seen in custom dojo obstacle courses. 

[TheMostFrench]

On 2020-05-08 at 5:33 PM, L4D3M said:

Yeah totally. Let's keep all of 2.0 (though if unhindered, it makes increasing the game's difficulty a little more challenging), and throw in a toggle for 1.0 horizontal wall-runs that can basically stick to any wall forever and provide loads more freedom. A keybind if you want it to be a separate key, and a toggle for whether sprint + jump switches to wall-hops or wall-runs. Maybe even vertical wall-runs might have a use for going directly up. There's probably plenty of long distance areas in old interior maps that align perfectly to a situation where you'd pull off a horizontal wall-run from a platform you're on.

I was stuck arguing for my favorite thing a lot before, but this route works really well, and bullet jumps are pretty fun when there's something to challenge them and they don't dominate every scenario.

This is one thing I agree with. I genuinely never use wall latch because I can't move anywhere and most frames drop off pretty quickly. It would be really great if we could stick to walls and pillars to move horizontally without wall hopping. This means we could shoot and aim while wal running without accidentally jumping away from the wall, like what happens with wall hopping (aim away from the wall, you jump in that direction). Also don't have to worry about running out of wall space to hop along if you are sticking to it, which gives you time to look for the next wall you might want to bullet jump to.

An improved, mobile wall latch brings back a bit of 1.0 style parkour without changing 2.0 style much. Just need to extend the wall latch timer to make it usable. Playing a quick test mission as Rhino and it lasts about 6 seconds, wiki says the timer is shared with aim glide.

Edited May 10, 2020 by TheMostFrench

[Chicken-Biryani]

2 hours ago, L4D3M said:

I figured that was the exact opposite of why people played Warframe, to have something more unique than the rest. If you can run while hitting a ball, you're playing Tennis. If you want to play Tennis and Dodge Ball at the same time, but it's also represented by a space ship battle / dogfight, then you're playing a video game. I thought that was the whole point of people playing video games in the first place, to have something different and unique rather than the same all the time. You could have the watermelon-apple you described in a fictional universe too, or anything when you use your imagination. There are absolutely no limits, and that really is the entire point of escapism.

You are a limbo main! I apologize! I'mma head out now... bye! 

[bl1te]

Apologies if it was already mentioned. I'm kinda in hurry so I didn't read all the posts, however I want to add my 2 cents.

I think it wouldn't really hurt if there was more "interactable" parkour similar to Assassin's Creed or some pieces of Prototype.

I mean those movements when you run straight forward and your character passes the obstacles in a proper and cool way (slides, monkey jumps, flips, etc.).

In my opinion, this is what Warframe lacks - proper immersion into NINJA theme. Silly drilling the air/wall with your head gets really boring when you get used to it.

I don't suggest removal of bullet-jumping. But adding this feature when you just hold W and Shift keys for example, it enables this movement.

Although I understand that it requires a lot of work, so even if devs decide to implement this, then it won't be soon. ...maybe Parkour 2.997?

Edited May 10, 2020 by bl1te

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Mobility in warframe has its own set of problems, however bringing back parkour 1.0 won't solve anything. Imo, the main problem is that spamming bullet jump is by far the fastest way to travel on foot, and that makes no sense. Bullet jump should be used as a means to gain momentum from a stationary position: after that, in air maneuvers and running should move faster. Flopping around like an epileptic fish is not cool, it gets stale pretty fast. A better system would be to straight out rip a page from Titanfall's book: reintroduce wall running by holding the jump button when near a wall, and make sure it saves your momentum and actually increases your speed when you detach from the wall. Moving through the air is already faster because you are not limited by running speed/ground friction, but the fact that wall hopping resets your momentum really hurts the flow of movement. If it were able to increase it (up to a cap of course), it would create a much more engaging way to traverse the environment that would also look cooler. 

Just because we are on topic, the dodge roll should also probably change. Right now, it's just another mobility tool that's redundant with slide and bullet jump, instead of being an instrument used to, you know, dodge stuff. It should provide a much higher initial burst of momentum, that allows you to get out of AoEs by covering a fair chunk of ground but that subsequently brings you back to walking momentum to avoid spamming, and maybe it should have a brief initial window of invincibility frame (nothing that renders Rolling Guard irrelevant, just a couple of tenths of a second, between 0.2s to 0.3s) to reinforce the defensive nature of the move.

[(PSN)xBellikx]

Whatever the argument here is, i do want to say that wall-running looks way cooler than the awkward bunny hop we got right now.

[L4D3M]

 

Imagine having laser eyes with an info tip that told you they kill and burn through everything in their path with no exception, auto-calculating the next highest threat to lock onto. Imagine someone wants that, then asks to have a combat challenge with it despite knowing it's made to be unstoppable in every way.

You have the same problem from the other end when you accidentally mis-apply a map designer's hard work when you make an obvious mechanic that defeats all of the strategies, challenges and learning curves for players to climb and triumph over each time they learn a little bit of it.

There's no melee combat as far as I've seen besides stun-locking and face-tanking. Sure, movement is a little inflexible and manual blocking was removed, but you could code in additional short dash-dodges and make timing your attack with specific enemy animations rather than spamming it have a better effect to countering them sometimes.

You could even make the aiming part a little easier with a limited / cooldown / energy based lock-on ability to give more focus to the other challenging types of gameplay if you want to risk the last bit of your current gameplay.

I'm saying you, DE friends, have developed the bare bones of a visual presentation without much gameplay to go with it, and even a possibly misrepresentation of gameplay type in advertisement for being a pure puzzle and strategy game and mod / card deck building game rather than have any bit of an action game in it. Yes, it looks cool on surface level, but you need to look at games like Bayonetta or Doom Eternal for examples that evolve their move-sets or other action strategies. Parkour is the advantage you used to have over other games before tossing all that hard work on it aside for that one boring king move that does everything for you always, and it starts with a B and looks like Ctrl+Space all game.

You need way more than just Doom's Marauder, you need an entire gameplay redesign, an understanding of and respect for a map designer's hard work and its intended gameplay purpose, an understanding of just how hard balancing a game can be if you decide to throw any exceptionally crazy balance-upsetting new thing in rather than giving it more situational uses / moments from the start, and you need to definitely not wipe out all the gameplay your game once had in a single move by introducing a new move that easily and repetitively defeats it all.

Doom Eternal had players who were bad at easy platformers calling its fun parkour 'jumping puzzles', but that didn't make them remove it.

Warframe is currently not an action game, but rather a hacking puzzle game and card-deck-building game with the mods, and the only current way to challenge players is to throw giant concrete walls at them unless you really rethink things. No rewards. No new artistic content. All simply pure gameplay and code, and the triumph that comes with the mastery and gradually better multitasking of playing against it, and to make that type of multitasking very fun to play for long amounts of time and not just watch on screen for a minute.

Snappy controls. You need to not just have limits that create challenges, but make it feel like you can do loads of different things once mastering yourself within those limits. Drop the numbers game, that 'I can do anything' feeling comes from accumulating loads of different tactics and strategies into your repertoire and your mind, fingers and muscle-memory as a real skill and not as a fake coded character perk, and having just enough or more fun visual representations of your actions on-screen.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by L4D3M

[AlexMercer]

Sorry i can’t agree on any of your suggestions i like the movement/parkour system that warframe has right now only small upgrades like wall running instead of wall hopping would be a welcome change and maybe other small changes.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

That topic title is over half the screen of my phone.