Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.

[Maganar]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You'd be wrong here. Just today I took a 0 forma Lenz, no riven, no exilus, two mod slots missing and killed level 181 corrupted heavy gunners with it in a solo survival.

The Lenz was unpopular because it was unwieldy and hunter munitions is a largely underestimated mod. Anyone can use the Lenz Build I used today to fight level 200 enemies in a solo survival. No forma. Not even a max point strike.

No carrier for more ammo. Just the base ammo mutation. What lead to the Lenz's decline was that it could kill you, the draw time, and the delayed explosion.

I'm aware of this, but what Lenz did, Kuva Bramma has always done with greater consistency in getting those applications down for reliable kills.  This was a mistake on my part in not emphasizing that reliability was a critical factor here.  The unwieldiness was another factor I considered bringing up, but felt was tangential.  You are absolutely correct that it was another factor that cemented Lenz's loss of popularity.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Meanwhile the Bramma? Higher base damage. Faster Draw. Explosions instant and gratuitous. It's a bow that is extremely customizable. Hand tailored element to your liking. Not to mention a dream to mod with more mod polarity then you could ever need. It's a weapon that had almost everything going for it.

Except when it came to people like you.
 

Again, this is a place you lose me.  You explain exactly how Bramma dominates everything else (before shortly below this) claiming that it was "never overpowered" and didn't dominate anything.  You describe it as if it is a good thing that there was no reason to even consider using anything else, because doing so even out of personal preference for a different playstyle resulted in gimping your performance to an unacceptable degree.  Your own description undermines your own argument.  Kuva Bramma either was overpowered, or it was not.  It can't be both, just depending on which is momentarily more convenient to your argument.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You'd be wrong by what other people have said.

As of right now. A hunter munitions Lenz is outperforming the Bramma when it comes to dps.

Depending on how those tests are being performed, I can absolutely believe that.  The DPS that one actually experiences in mission - trying to line up shots, etc. - was always in Bramma's favor though, with the abundance of features you listed previously.  The faster draw time in particular is crucial in this regard, as it allows snap reflex reactionary shots which are completely out of the question with Lenz's slow draw.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The bramma was never overpowered. You think it was. You are wrong. The reality was that it was that most popular AoE. The amount of AoE damage it could crank out was near the best, but as you admitted with melee, there are better options.

People like you just jump on the hate wagon, and join the nerf herd. You'll never actually reasonably balance a weapon. Just like the Simuloid Gammacor.

You think a weapon is op. Compared to what? What are you scaling the weapon to? Level 30 enemies? Level 120? Your entire viewpoint is flawed because people like you say its overpowered, but compared to what?

Today on Ps4 I literally compared pre-nerf Bramma to pre-nerf Lenz. Which one do you think won with the same exact mods? Lenz.
 

Again, it either is as powerful as you say when drooling over it before in how it outclassed the competition, or it is not.  It can't be both at your convenience.

I don't understand the relevance of Synoid Gammacor.  I love it.  It recently became an absolute Corpus-shredding war crime after the status effect update.  While I didn't agree with a number of choices in that update, part of the collateral is that Gammacor should now build Viral and Corpus/Grineer tank dichotomy is no longer as great (meaning dedicated Corpus-killer weapons are actually as handy as dedicated Grineer-killer weapons, which were previously all that mattered).  It's seen an increase in use from me lately.

Did you mean Synoid Simulor perhaps, which was nerfed because of synergy with Mirage?  If so, that was before my time, and I can't comment on it.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I kinda doubt you. Especially since not a single person has defended kitguns before you. Not a single player has used kitguns in the missions I've played. And I've tried all various kitguns as of late.

All of them feel 100% terrible. None of them perform up to what I'd like. And this is coming from a person who spends hours in solo survivals. Maybe they can be good with the right arcanes.

This is where your replies stop sounding like an honest expression of opinion and more of a casual dismissal of detractors to your stance.

This is an extremely broad and sweeping generalization that the entire playerbase now refuses to use kitguns or defend them.  I can't speak for everyone among the community which is apparently unanimously silent of any defenses for kitguns - presumably you went out of your way to determine this silence exists throughout the entire community through a statistically sound sampling procedure if you are using it as evidence (but did you?), but I for one have never defended kitguns before as I took it for granted that they so devastating and easily customized to a given playstyle that their value was self-evident.  This is also a refusal to acknowledge my point that I can personally vouch for myself as a kitgun user because it is inconvenient to your previous broad and sweeping generalization that kitguns in general were useless and universally hated.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yet you are in the vast minority without a doubt. The catchmoon was the only kitgun anyone cared about. You would be the one out of 10,000 that actually cares about them.

Again, unless you have sampled the community to justify these figures, these are unfounded assumptions and broad generalizations based on your personal conjectures.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Hence you do small changes, instead of destroying a new fantastic weapon that brought people back to warframe.

People come back to warframe for new content. I started playing again with friends who came back just for the lichs. Now the very thing that was a celebration to them coming back is being ruined for them (The bramma) because of opinions like yours.

There's also been people threatening to - or just announcing that they are - leaving Warframe because the power creep associated with liches made the game feel like a joke.  Many will probably come back for (other) new content updates in the future just as your friends did, but they aren't going to want to return to still see Old Blood content dominating their experience if that's why they left.  There were also people who left because they did not like the breed of grind that Old Blood introduced.  Old Blood was not a well-received update, in general.

This is also another issue I had that I didn't bring up earlier about your belief that Kuva Bramma was just popular because of being a weapon unique to Kuva liches - the hype was very long dead by the arrival of Kuva Bramma.  Kuva Bramma was in the second wave of released Kuva weapons and the first wave of Old Blood content was received with heavy backlash against its power creep, grind, and the generally unpolished feel of the entire lich hunting system.  As for small changes, I again contest that Kuva Bramma outclassed other weapons in so many regards that serious action was necessary to impact it any noticeable way.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Sorry, but you aren't making any reasonable arguments. You don't know weigh the scale of the weapons powers, or its place in the game. Instead you respond to an extreme with another extreme.

Vague, unclear meaning, ad hominem attack all at once.  Presumably this would be less vague if I understood the Destiny/whatever-else references being made below, but your agenda here is much more about attacking my ability to formulate arguments than to contribute to the discussion of Kuva Bramma.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The bramma is an extreme in that its the new gjallarhorn. It's the new northfleet. It's the new BFG. (Games like warframe, constantly have the same phenomenon as the Bramma. A new exciting gun comes out with unknown potential and people rush to it.

In the overall life-span of the game it doesn't effect the balance of the game. The Gjallarhorn got powercrept out before it was nerfed. Other guns came and took the spot.

A weapon being the best isn't a concern. Some people like using the best weapons in the game. People like using the BFG. There's nothing wrong with that. What matters is if the gun is fun to those who use it. The entire reason we are having this discussion is because people like the weapon.

The concern here was more that Kuva Bramma had massively accelerated the existing rate of power creep.  We all know power creep is going on.  Some of us love it, some of us hate it, some of us just accept it as an inevitability of this type of game with ambivalence for the greater part (I tend to place myself in the final group).  Bramma rocked me out of that ambivalence, though even then I didn't really cry for nerfs since I knew it inevitably would be whether I climbed a soapbox or not.  The general outcry was large enough I trusted in it to get a reaction from DE, based on my past experience with this community and the developers.  I was personally glad that I could trust a nerf was coming which would likely decrease popularity because visual and auditory overload I experienced when people spam-fired it in missions was something that was starting to wear me down and I was playing Warframe less recently.  Several factors contributed to that, but Bramma was one of them.

Bramma becoming less popular works to my benefit, but I never felt that was the reason it was due for a nerf.  I felt it was due for a nerf when I read the stats in the patch notes, before ever seeing it in mission.  I also predicted its popularity on the spot, but I'll get back to that later.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Wrong. So the best build for the Bramma was using Hunter Munitions. Hunter munitions is a mod that creates a slash proc based off a crit. The higher the base damage of a weapon, the stronger the crit, the stronger the slash proc is.

Having less cluster bombs means less instances of that slash proc happening. Hunter Munitions is one of the strongest mods in the game. With it, my 0 forma lens could fight level 181 heavy gunners with 3 million health effective health.

Slash procs ignore armor and damage reduction. When this change comes to console, it's entirely likely that this Kuva Weapon will be outdamaged by a master rank 7 lenz.

Ok, so this is what I meant.  Maybe I expressed it poorly.  But it's this wild overkill of overlapping Viral and Slash procs that lets it not just clear trash mobs with the instantaneous explosion damage (what I meant by its "stopping power," which you interpreted as maximum potential single-target damage because I didn't elaborate on what I meant) that needs to go from a mass AoE weapon that can carpet-bomb an area by spamming shots quickly with its lightning-fast draw time.

Being able to watch swaths of trash mobs just instantly die at low levels and melt quickly under Slash procs at endgame levels with a single shot is part of the fantasy of hurling bombs at enemies and that's the part I didn't want people to lose if they legitimately loved that.  Having it do the same to Heavy Gunners and Bombards just makes it so you can forget about using warframe abilities or any other weapons because the Bramma becomes more mindlessly easy without energy management or just the tradeoffs other weapons endure.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Wrong again. The Bramma has the highest base damage of all bows. The Kuva shildeg has the second lowest base damage of all hammers. It could have been strong. But if something comes out, and there are already many items better then it, people aren't going to be impressed by it.

I'm vastly confused by this "rebuttal."  This is literally my point?  It was not popular because it was part of the Old Blood update.  It was popular because of its stats.  Its performance.  Shildeg had undesirable stats and performance, so we didn't see massive popularity.  If, as you'd claimed in the post I was replying to, Bramma was popular exclusively because it was one of the completely new weapons released in the Old Blood update, Shildeg should have enjoyed the same status.  But it didn't, because stats.

In fact, it should have been more popular because of my earlier point about the way Old Blood lost its hype by the time Bramma was released.  Shildeg was a completely new weapon back when Old Blood was still experiencing hype, which had long since soured by the arrival of Kuva Bramma.  But Kuva Bramma still exploded in popularity and Shildeg has remained with a reputation as one of the big jokes of the update that everyone pokes fun at.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

No, this is a consequence of the weapon's popularity. There are many weapons in the game that outperform it in different ways. Many warframe abilities can kill enemies before the bramma can reach them.

You either got excited by the bramma when you found about it. Put love into it and joined the hype train, or resented it. It functions around the same levels as other AoE in the game.

The concept of balancing based on popularity is a curious thing in the Warframe community.

In general, things should be balanced based on their power scaling, not popularity directly.  Popularity can also occur for reasons unrelated to power level, such as a playstyle that is widely enjoyed, a cool skin everyone likes, or whatever.

In most communities, weapons or characters on the top of the power scaling charts tend to enjoy increased usage.  This also means that the things that need nerfing to maintain a healthy state end up popular before being nerfed.  Yet, popularity doesn't necessarily mean a nerf is needed.  The problem in the Warframe community is that I've never seen the community preference for powerful items taken to the extreme that Warframe players take it, which is baffling considering this is a PvE game and an easy one to sweep through endgame with most any gear at that.  There is less reason than ever to hone in on specific super-powered weapons and strategies, yet people do anyway in this community.  For this reason, almost everything that becomes really popular - like really, really popular in the Warframe community - ends up needing to be nerfed... but NOT because of the popularity.  Rather because of this phenomenon with the playerbase that we seem to exalt anything that can stomp the competition to the point of the game becoming a chore rather than a source of entertainment.  This is what I meant when I said I would return to the topic of how I knew Bramma would be popular the moment I saw its stats, before experiencing it even once in-game.  I knew how well it would be perform, and I knew the community will take anything that performs that well and use it until they eyeballs drip out of their sockets.

This is starting to digress, but it's important to understanding the situation so I'll say it.  But one of the things DE hasn't ever addressed because it's insidious are the popular super-warframes/super-strategies that are purely self-destructive in nature.  I'm talking tank-frames that effectively cast one ability to activate "ignore all game mechanics mode" and then never interact with the keys on 1-4 ever again: Rhino and Inaros, both of which enjoy astronomically high popularity.  It may only be anecdotal evidence, but I've heard numerous stories of people playing those warframes until they completely burn out of the game because every mission becomes such boring drudgery, only to come back, play an old nostalgic warframe, and fall in love with the game again once remembering what it was like to use more engaging warframe kits.  DE only seems to notice when mob clear is involved that causes burn-out not just for the player abusing the strategy, but the other people in the mission.  Even if they bring it on themselves, I feel bad that people are being driven from warframe because DE does not address content that actively saps the fun from the game by offering a temptation of making missions "easy," until they just become boring.

And it's this visibility of ones that affect everyone in the mission - not just the abuser - and the "popularity phenomenon" I've observed within the Warframe community that have previously led to mistakes like the one you feel DE is making with Kuva Bramma.  The original Ember rebalance (before her full-scale kit update) was one such.  DE looked at high Ember use and presumed it was because the community - predictable as it was - used her only because she must have been super overpowered... even though she was reliant on Flash Accelerant gimmicks at that time to even find any relevance in higher-level content.  She was one of the rare cases in Warframe of something getting high popularity not because of effectiveness, but other reasons.  She was popular because the game forces endgame players to spend time in low-level regions, and those players just want to leave those levels as fast as possible because it is no longer fun for them.  Ember's World on Fire solved that problem for players by making missions fast, so her popularity was high.  DE failed to see the root cause of the popularity (an unhealthy progression system) and nerfed something pointlessly.  Only now, years later, is the root cause being addressed (we are being promised a "hard mode" star chart that lets us toggle on up to +100 enemy levels to minimize endgame player time spent in low-level missions), and it was only long after the initial rebalance that DE heard the feedback and gave Ember a full kit update aimed at improving her usabillity in any setting, including higher levels.  This was unfair to Ember users.  It was a mistake in balancing made by looking at popularity numbers, and not underlying causes.  Thankfully, Ember's full kit update made her much more exciting to use and it likely only got provoked by the backlash to the original nerf, so all is well that ends well... but the path we took to get there was not a healthy one, and took a long time.

This is why I feel confident saying Kuva Bramma will be better for the game in its new state.  By your own admission, Lenz kicks ass and most of the nerfs Bramma is experiencing now are things Lenz has always had to deal with.  With Kuva Bramma, there is no underlying cause of its popularity other than its raw power and trivialization of game content, which exacerbates burn-out for both the user and people around them when the AoE is so effective.  This was something I predicted the moment I read its stats.  Its popularity was evident in advance, not something I had to consider in retrospect, as I did with Ember since I knew she didn't hold up well in high-level content yet her use was once extremely high.  This is just the Warframe community idolizing something that does its job a little to well, just as they have before with Catchmoon, and just as I fear many players continue to do with Rhino and Inaros before silently slipping out of the community and not understanding why the game one day ceased to be fun for them.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

At the very least you are civil.

I would be happy to show you a video where I compare the Bramma and the Lenz together in a comparison with hunter munitions. I fully expect the Bramma to be worse then the Lenz when the update hits on console.

I believe your comparison of Bramma and Lenz is accurate; there's no need to prove it to me.  But Bramma will still have a use case even if it's killing power falls below Lenz with the huge improvements to reducing its unwieldiness with a fast draw time and no explosion delay, allowing for faster action quicker volleys.

This is a reason why I believe some people may be on the right track asking for the ammo counter to be pushed back up a little bit, as this would help further emphasize the unique strenght in its ability to lay down a volley and carpet an area, while other nerfs such as to cluster-bomb count might reduce its power elsewhere enough to keep it in line.  I'm not inflexible that it must be nerfed exactly in this particular way with no adjustments because DE said so.  Some further adjustment may get it into an ideal spot, but as you've no doubt noticed I stand in stark opposition to the opinion that this nerf was uncalled-for.  I believe it was justified for all the reasons I have provided.  Kuva Bramma has epitomized a lot of my concerns about gear that people use just to get the job done, until they burn out themselves or others around them.

I know some of you really loved it for what it was.  But if you enjoyed it for its playstyle and not its stats, you shouldn't have a problem.  It should still get the job done with the same style of gameplay because of the underappreciated potency of Hunter Munitions you've described yourself.  This nerf will separate the people who were actually having fun with the weapon who will stick with it from the ones who just wanted it to breeze through the game by spamming AoE who will drop it.  Once the initial sting wears off, people who legitimately loved the weapon will find that they are still getting results and they'll keep playing.  The ones always searching for the most efficient solution will eventually be driven off by their own self-inflicted burnout if not by the feeling that DE is targeting them, and I consider many of them beyond saving for this reason anyway.

[(PSN)Rook117]

4 minutes ago, Maganar said:

I'm aware of this, but what Lenz did, Kuva Bramma has always done with greater consistency in getting those applications down for reliable kills.  This was a mistake on my part in not emphasizing that reliability was a critical factor here.  The unwieldiness was another factor I considered bringing up, but felt was tangential.  You are absolutely correct that it was another factor that cemented Lenz's loss of popularity.

Again, this is a place you lose me.  You explain exactly how Bramma dominates everything else (before shortly below this) claiming that it was "never overpowered" and didn't dominate anything.  You describe it as if it is a good thing that there was no reason to even consider using anything else, because doing so even out of personal preference for a different playstyle resulted in gimping your performance to an unacceptable degree.  Your own description undermines your own argument.  Kuva Bramma either was overpowered, or it was not.  It can't be both, just depending on which is momentarily more convenient to your argument.

Depending on how those tests are being performed, I can absolutely believe that.  The DPS that one actually experiences in mission - trying to line up shots, etc. - was always in Bramma's favor though, with the abundance of features you listed previously.  The faster draw time in particular is crucial in this regard, as it allows snap reflex reactionary shots which are completely out of the question with Lenz's slow draw.

Again, it either is as powerful as you say when drooling over it before in how it outclassed the competition, or it is not.  It can't be both at your convenience.

I don't understand the relevance of Synoid Gammacor.  I love it.  It recently became an absolute Corpus-shredding war crime after the status effect update.  While I didn't agree with a number of choices in that update, part of the collateral is that Gammacor should now build Viral and Corpus/Grineer tank dichotomy is no longer as great (meaning dedicated Corpus-killer weapons are actually as handy as dedicated Grineer-killer weapons, which were previously all that mattered).  It's seen an increase in use from me lately.

Did you mean Synoid Simulor perhaps, which was nerfed because of synergy with Mirage?  If so, that was before my time, and I can't comment on it.

This is where your replies stop sounding like an honest expression of opinion and more of a casual dismissal of detractors to your stance.

This is an extremely broad and sweeping generalization that the entire playerbase now refuses to use kitguns or defend them.  I can't speak for everyone among the community which is apparently unanimously silent of any defenses for kitguns - presumably you went out of your way to determine this silence exists throughout the entire community through a statistically sound sampling procedure if you are using it as evidence (but did you?), but I for one have never defended kitguns before as I took it for granted that they so devastating and easily customized to a given playstyle that their value was self-evident.  This is also a refusal to acknowledge my point that I can personally vouch for myself as a kitgun user because it is inconvenient to your previous broad and sweeping generalization that kitguns in general were useless and universally hated.

Again, unless you have sampled the community to justify these figures, these are unfounded assumptions and broad generalizations based on your personal conjectures.

There's also been people threatening to - or just announcing that they are - leaving Warframe because the power creep associated with liches made the game feel like a joke.  Many will probably come back for (other) new content updates in the future just as your friends did, but they aren't going to want to return to still see Old Blood content dominating their experience if that's why they left.  There were also people who left because they did not like the breed of grind that Old Blood introduced.  Old Blood was not a well-received update, in general.

This is also another issue I had that I didn't bring up earlier about your belief that Kuva Bramma was just popular because of being a weapon unique to Kuva liches - the hype was very long dead by the arrival of Kuva Bramma.  Kuva Bramma was in the second wave of released Kuva weapons and the first wave of Old Blood content was received with heavy backlash against its power creep, grind, and the generally unpolished feel of the entire lich hunting system.  As for small changes, I again contest that Kuva Bramma outclassed other weapons in so many regards that serious action was necessary to impact it any noticeable way.

Vague, unclear meaning, ad hominem attack all at once.  Presumably this would be less vague if I understood the Destiny/whatever-else references being made below, but your agenda here is much more about attacking my ability to formulate arguments than to contribute to the discussion of Kuva Bramma.

The concern here was more that Kuva Bramma had massively accelerated the existing rate of power creep.  We all know power creep is going on.  Some of us love it, some of us hate it, some of us just accept it as an inevitability of this type of game with ambivalence for the greater part (I tend to place myself in the final group).  Bramma rocked me out of that ambivalence, though even then I didn't really cry for nerfs since I knew it inevitably would be whether I climbed a soapbox or not.  The general outcry was large enough I trusted in it to get a reaction from DE, based on my past experience with this community and the developers.  I was personally glad that I could trust a nerf was coming which would likely decrease popularity because visual and auditory overload I experienced when people spam-fired it in missions was something that was starting to wear me down and I was playing Warframe less recently.  Several factors contributed to that, but Bramma was one of them.

Bramma becoming less popular works to my benefit, but I never felt that was the reason it was due for a nerf.  I felt it was due for a nerf when I read the stats in the patch notes, before ever seeing it in mission.  I also predicted its popularity on the spot, but I'll get back to that later.

Ok, so this is what I meant.  Maybe I expressed it poorly.  But it's this wild overkill of overlapping Viral and Slash procs that lets it not just clear trash mobs with the instantaneous explosion damage (what I meant by its "stopping power," which you interpreted as maximum potential single-target damage because I didn't elaborate on what I meant) that needs to go from a mass AoE weapon that can carpet-bomb an area by spamming shots quickly with its lightning-fast draw time.

Being able to watch swaths of trash mobs just instantly die at low levels and melt quickly under Slash procs at endgame levels with a single shot is part of the fantasy of hurling bombs at enemies and that's the part I didn't want people to lose if they legitimately loved that.  Having it do the same to Heavy Gunners and Bombards just makes it so you can forget about using warframe abilities or any other weapons because the Bramma becomes more mindlessly easy without energy management or just the tradeoffs other weapons endure.

I'm vastly confused by this "rebuttal."  This is literally my point?  It was not popular because it was part of the Old Blood update.  It was popular because of its stats.  Its performance.  Shildeg had undesirable stats and performance, so we didn't see massive popularity.  If, as you'd claimed in the post I was replying to, Bramma was popular exclusively because it was one of the completely new weapons released in the Old Blood update, Shildeg should have enjoyed the same status.  But it didn't, because stats.

In fact, it should have been more popular because of my earlier point about the way Old Blood lost its hype by the time Bramma was released.  Shildeg was a completely new weapon back when Old Blood was still experiencing hype, which had long since soured by the arrival of Kuva Bramma.  But Kuva Bramma still exploded in popularity and Shildeg has remained with a reputation as one of the big jokes of the update that everyone pokes fun at.

The concept of balancing based on popularity is a curious thing in the Warframe community.

In general, things should be balanced based on their power scaling, not popularity directly.  Popularity can also occur for reasons unrelated to power level, such as a playstyle that is widely enjoyed, a cool skin everyone likes, or whatever.

In most communities, weapons or characters on the top of the power scaling charts tend to enjoy increased usage.  This also means that the things that need nerfing to maintain a healthy state end up popular before being nerfed.  Yet, popularity doesn't necessarily mean a nerf is needed.  The problem in the Warframe community is that I've never seen the community preference for powerful items taken to the extreme that Warframe players take it, which is baffling considering this is a PvE game and an easy one to sweep through endgame with most any gear at that.  There is less reason than ever to hone in on specific super-powered weapons and strategies, yet people do anyway in this community.  For this reason, almost everything that becomes really popular - like really, really popular in the Warframe community - ends up needing to be nerfed... but NOT because of the popularity.  Rather because of this phenomenon with the playerbase that we seem to exalt anything that can stomp the competition to the point of the game becoming a chore rather than a source of entertainment.  This is what I meant when I said I would return to the topic of how I knew Bramma would be popular the moment I saw its stats, before experiencing it even once in-game.  I knew how well it would be perform, and I knew the community will take anything that performs that well and use it until they eyeballs drip out of their sockets.

This is starting to digress, but it's important to understanding the situation so I'll say it.  But one of the things DE hasn't ever addressed because it's insidious are the popular super-warframes/super-strategies that are purely self-destructive in nature.  I'm talking tank-frames that effectively cast one ability to activate "ignore all game mechanics mode" and then never interact with the keys on 1-4 ever again: Rhino and Inaros, both of which enjoy astronomically high popularity.  It may only be anecdotal evidence, but I've heard numerous stories of people playing those warframes until they completely burn out of the game because every mission becomes such boring drudgery, only to come back, play an old nostalgic warframe, and fall in love with the game again once remembering what it was like to use more engaging warframe kits.  DE only seems to notice when mob clear is involved that causes burn-out not just for the player abusing the strategy, but the other people in the mission.  Even if they bring it on themselves, I feel bad that people are being driven from warframe because DE does not address content that actively saps the fun from the game by offering a temptation of making missions "easy," until they just become boring.

And it's this visibility of ones that affect everyone in the mission - not just the abuser - and the "popularity phenomenon" I've observed within the Warframe community that have previously led to mistakes like the one you feel DE is making with Kuva Bramma.  The original Ember rebalance (before her full-scale kit update) was one such.  DE looked at high Ember use and presumed it was because the community - predictable as it was - used her only because she must have been super overpowered... even though she was reliant on Flash Accelerant gimmicks at that time to even find any relevance in higher-level content.  She was one of the rare cases in Warframe of something getting high popularity not because of effectiveness, but other reasons.  She was popular because the game forces endgame players to spend time in low-level regions, and those players just want to leave those levels as fast as possible because it is no longer fun for them.  Ember's World on Fire solved that problem for players by making missions fast, so her popularity was high.  DE failed to see the root cause of the popularity (an unhealthy progression system) and nerfed something pointlessly.  Only now, years later, is the root cause being addressed (we are being promised a "hard mode" star chart that lets us toggle on up to +100 enemy levels to minimize endgame player time spent in low-level missions), and it was only long after the initial rebalance that DE heard the feedback and gave Ember a full kit update aimed at improving her usabillity in any setting, including higher levels.  This was unfair to Ember users.  It was a mistake in balancing made by looking at popularity numbers, and not underlying causes.  Thankfully, Ember's full kit update made her much more exciting to use and it likely only got provoked by the backlash to the original nerf, so all is well that ends well... but the path we took to get there was not a healthy one, and took a long time.

This is why I feel confident saying Kuva Bramma will be better for the game in its new state.  By your own admission, Lenz kicks ass and most of the nerfs Bramma is experiencing now are things Lenz has always had to deal with.  With Kuva Bramma, there is no underlying cause of its popularity other than its raw power and trivialization of game content, which exacerbates burn-out for both the user and people around them when the AoE is so effective.  This was something I predicted the moment I read its stats.  Its popularity was evident in advance, not something I had to consider in retrospect, as I did with Ember since I knew she didn't hold up well in high-level content yet her use was once extremely high.  This is just the Warframe community idolizing something that does its job a little to well, just as they have before with Catchmoon, and just as I fear many players continue to do with Rhino and Inaros before silently slipping out of the community and not understanding why the game one day ceased to be fun for them.

I believe your comparison of Bramma and Lenz is accurate; there's no need to prove it to me.  But Bramma will still have a use case even if it's killing power falls below Lenz with the huge improvements to reducing its unwieldiness with a fast draw time and no explosion delay, allowing for faster action quicker volleys.

This is a reason why I believe some people may be on the right track asking for the ammo counter to be pushed back up a little bit, as this would help further emphasize the unique strenght in its ability to lay down a volley and carpet an area, while other nerfs such as to cluster-bomb count might reduce its power elsewhere enough to keep it in line.  I'm not inflexible that it must be nerfed exactly in this particular way with no adjustments because DE said so.  Some further adjustment may get it into an ideal spot, but as you've no doubt noticed I stand in stark opposition to the opinion that this nerf was uncalled-for.  I believe it was justified for all the reasons I have provided.  Kuva Bramma has epitomized a lot of my concerns about gear that people use just to get the job done, until they burn out themselves or others around them.

I know some of you really loved it for what it was.  But if you enjoyed it for its playstyle and not its stats, you shouldn't have a problem.  It should still get the job done with the same style of gameplay because of the underappreciated potency of Hunter Munitions you've described yourself.  This nerf will separate the people who were actually having fun with the weapon who will stick with it from the ones who just wanted it to breeze through the game by spamming AoE who will drop it.  Once the initial sting wears off, people who legitimately loved the weapon will find that they are still getting results and they'll keep playing.  The ones always searching for the most efficient solution will eventually be driven off by their own self-inflicted burnout if not by the feeling that DE is targeting them, and I consider many of them beyond saving for this reason anyway.

This post was waaaay to long.

Longer than DE’s update notes even.

Some of yall need to learn how to be concise.

 

Its hard to take your feedback into account when it just runs on endlessly. Help them help you.

 

i promise you i didnt bother reading all that. What are the chances DE will?

[Bandileros]

2 минуты назад, Larrell сказал:

My personal experience is I can't see what the hell is going on in a fight when it's being rapid-fired and that's before a mirage is carpet bombing with it. I can't see where to aim my weapon at a distance, I can't see where to swing my weapon in melee. Ignoring the damage or dps angle entirely, bramma spammers are functionally blinding other players. Hence the reduced number of clusters-to help alleviate this.

I need to use mine a bit more before I draw conclusions but I'm pretty sure I get the idea behind the changes; it's supposed to be powerful, but it shouldn't be spammable, and it shouldn't make life miserable for other players.

Yep!

It was enough to reduce the intensity of visual effects so that the spammers did not interfere with others. Make explosions without flame. Or even remove the clusters, leave only the first explosion.
 
But 5 arrows ... This made the bramma absolutely, ABSOLUTELY useless weapon. The worst way to fill the main weapon slot is to shove a bow with 5 arrows into it.

It's like a good car with a 0.5 liter gas tank. No matter how good it is, only an idiot will use it.
 

[Maganar]

On 2020-06-12 at 11:21 AM, (PS4)Rook117 said:

This post was waaaay to long.

Longer than DE’s update notes even.

Some of yall need to learn how to be concise.

 

Its hard to take your feedback into account when it just runs on endlessly. Help them help you.

 

i promise you i didnt bother reading all that. What are the chances DE will?

Yes, a very eloquent and convincing deconstruction of the my response to each of your points on the reply you left of equal length.

You actually would be amazed how much of these sections DE reads, especially since they skim over the banter of people trading quick jabs at each other, and are more inclined to spend time on responses that appear thoughtful.

Whether or not DE reads it, we at least know from your own admission that your desire to contribute to a discussion over Kuva Bramma's future as a weapon does not matter enough to you to be worth your time reading a post only marginally longer than your own.  It definitely illustrates in which group you belong one of the final point I discussed in that post about how people playing the weapon for its gameplay will not be deterred by these nerfs when it continues to get results up through endgame, whereas people playing for the stats will be quitting it, given that you care so little about this discussion.

Also dude, you're not even the person  was replying to, for one, so ignore the parts about this being "marginally longer than your last reply."  For another, your stance seems to be that Kuva Bramma needed to be nerfed, which was the argument I was making, so you're attacking someone who is advancing your point, but doing so with more structured arguments.  Thirdly, all your posts have been short, quick attacks on other people in this forum.  At this point you are literally not even reading posts (as you confessed of mine) and just writing attacks at people who haven't yet engaged in conversation with you.  Just give it a rest.  Chill.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Hey to burst your bubble. There is always a best weapon. There is always one weapon to rule them all. I'll never understand people like you when you freak out about one weapon standing out.

Do people like you pretend the Olympics doesn't have a winner? Do you pretend that one person isn't given the gold medal? Or do you pretend everyone is the best?

Before the Bramma came out, Tigris Prime was the best weapon. Long before then there was a time where Soma Prime and the Boltor Prime where the best. Nikana Prime was the best melee weapon for the longest time.

Warframe is an MMO. When new expansions come out, there will be new best weapons.
New Prime weapons for example consistently add new best weapons to the game. There is plenty of weapon variation. Bramma was the new best bow. 

Was it the best weapon in the game? Nope. Plenty of weapons outdps the Bramma. But hey. Good job making less weapon variety. There's now 1 less viable bow options.
Bows were a neglected weapon, btw. The last best bow was the Lenz which was added in 2017.

 

Dude fun fact.

Balancing is not about the best but the difference between the best and second best.

That gap between the bramma and other primary weapons especially other AoE launchers was quite large. 

The best description for the bramma was "out of competition" in the primary weapon slot

In my opinion the changes are pretty good because they are not hurting the weapon but the cancerous spamming playstyle.

5 arrows in the quiver are enough. If not, you are not deserving that weapon

 

 

 

[(PSN)Rook117]

THIS^
 

Svenx13 GETS IT.

❤️

[Bandileros]

1 минуту назад, (PS4)Svenx13 сказал:

Dude fun fact.

Balancing is not about the best but the difference between the best and second best.

That gap between the bramma and other primary weapons especially other AoE launchers was quite large. 

The best description for the bramma was "out of competition" in the primary weapon slot

In my opinion the changes are pretty good because they are not hurting the weapon but the cancerous spamming playstyle.

5 arrows in the quiver are enough. If not, you are not deserving that weapon

 

 

 

A good developer, faced with a similar problem, brings balance by other methods.

For example, increase the bowstring tension by 5 times. That it was impossible to shoot 10 times in 5 seconds. This is all the more logical - the more powerful the bow, the longer the string is pulled.

Or remove cluster bombs.

Or reduce the flight range of the arrow by three times, so that players could not blow up the entire map, and were forced to move.

But 5 arrows is a classic powerful auxiliary weapon that is rarely used on bosses. And does not occupy the cell of the main weapon. RPG; Bazooka, BFG 9000 ...

In a warframe, there are already too many weapons that are needed only as a garbage weapon for synthesis, even among Kuva weapons, now another useless one.

[seanthespider]

The kuva bramma was only broken under a few conditions:  having a maxed primed sure footed and arrow mutation. If you had these two the weapon was unstoppable but with the recent nerf it is unusable, first you cut its potential damage and then you slaughterd the ammo efficiency, even with a maxed arrow mutation you get only one, ONE shot per ammo pickup and limit the capacity to 5. 

"Remember its NERF or nothing!"

[Schm1ddi]

Kuva Bramma is now unplayble for me 😞
Its only now a "Fashion" Weapon to show: He look on my back, its lighting nicly and shows great optic.

Why its unplayble now for me?
He shoots for a "Bow" rly fast. 5 Shoots i can shoot in 3-7 Sec on aimed Targets. Charge Time 0.25 from 0.40 ( Lenz has 1.20 = without Reload Mods not playble for me = to slow).
I play Kuva Bramma with Mesa rly good with Mod "Shred". Why this?
For faster shoot and to penetrate nerlay Enemys / Walls for cover me himself little bit on "fall back" & kills Enemy before they can see / damage me.
Only "Ironskin" from "Rhino" can handle this easy without "fall back" or "kicked down" from shooting Kuva Bramma vs Walls / to nearly Enemys and so.

Problem is now, i cant more play the Kuva Bamma = i cant stay 5-7 Second on a Place to save this or me.
I must now much ealier to (risk) move or go away from a safe Place what ever u mean if u play vs lvl +2000 Enemeys.
Next is, i shoot the Ammo faster empty as i can to collect new. I MUST switch to Melee / Frame / Operator or Second Hand Weapon or drop a Ammo Pod.
Thats stupid! Thats unplayble. Primary Weapon!? What? *confused*

I know and i was save saying, the Nerf will comes. Ok. Nerf it on Damage, Range, Critical Damage or Chance or Cluster Numbers or Reload / Charge-Time.

I can with all this deal it. No Problem. But Ammo Nerf is no a word. Its a farce. Its useless.
Lenz can "find" faster Ammo without "Vigilante Ammo" Mod. Lenz is now stronger and more effectiv = more Ammo Cap and faster Ammo Convert.
A lower MR Weapon without a "Prisma, Plasma & Prime" Status what ever. Its a normlay Weapon - not a Kuva, nothing.

Its that fair DE?
 

btw.

Nerf all Nuke Frames they can "kill the Map alone":
Nerf all Melee Weapon they can hit and kill Enemy faster if i can with Kuva Bramma.
Nerf all what can make Damage and Fun on a PVE Game.

Big useless Nerf in a PVE Game? Rly? *Facepalm* Rebalance is the secret Word, not destroying a Weapon to unplayble.
Riven Dispo on Kuva Bramma Riven was already 1. Is that not enoguh?

 

Best Regards
Schm1ddi

[Bandileros]

3 минуты назад, Schm1ddi сказал:

 

+! 💖

 

If I were a developer, I would reduce the speed of the bowstring tension by 3-5 times.

That it was impossible to constantly spam and while the bowstring is pulled - the player managed to aim. And it would be foolish to shoot in all directions indiscriminately, because while you reload the bow again, they will have time to kill you.

And the bow would remain playable, the style of the game would simply change.

But 5 arrows - this completely makes the weapon unplayable. It makes no sense to use weapons that cannot hold back a crowd of opponents for at least 1 minute at full ammunition. It makes no sense to take such a weapon at all.

Will someone return me the time, energy, money spent on this bow?

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

A good developer, faced with a similar problem, brings balance by other methods.

For example, increase the bowstring tension by 5 times. That it was impossible to shoot 10 times in 5 seconds. This is all the more logical - the more powerful the bow, the longer the string is pulled.

Or remove cluster bombs.

Or reduce the flight range of the arrow by three times, so that players could not blow up the entire map, and were forced to move.

But 5 arrows is a classic powerful auxiliary weapon that is rarely used on bosses. And does not occupy the cell of the main weapon. RPG; Bazooka, BFG 9000 ...

In a warframe, there are already too many weapons that are needed only as a garbage weapon for synthesis, even among Kuva weapons, now another useless one.

1. I  really doubt the bramma will be useless in the future. I liked to play with the Lenz with a charge time of 1,2sec, 6arrows in the quiver, no cluster bombs and a lot of selfdmg, even then was the Lenz never called a "weak" weapon. The bramma will be a top AoE launcher, but not be out of competition like before

2. In my opinion there are no garbage kuva weapons. and with the riven system even old weapons can become quite good.

3. in my opinion your changes are something a very bad developer would do

No need to be toxic because you don't like it.

By the way playing games is about wasting life

[SirLagThe1st]

I am sorry but I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

The weapon wasn't actually nerfed but fixed from a vfx point of view and made idiot proof (as all OP weapons should be), if you're crying, then I feel sorry for you (only just a little).

The weapon had too many safety nets, and was used by a lot of people that didn't even have access to content where that weapon was even usable, instead, spamming it and making everyone lag just for the fun of it and don't even try to deny it, you were aware of this for the past months.

As for DE, you forgot to rise the MR required for this weapon to a level where people actually NEED this weapon and where they already know how to properly mod it by themselves.

[Bandileros]

2 минуты назад, (PS4)Svenx13 сказал:

1. I  really doubt the bramma will be useless in the future. I liked to play with the Lenz with a charge time of 1,2sec, 6arrows in the quiver, no cluster bombs and a lot of selfdmg, even then was the Lenz never called a "weak" weapon. The bramma will be a top AoE launcher, but not be out of competition like before

2. In my opinion there are no garbage kuva weapons. and with the riven system even old weapons can become quite good.

3. in my opinion your changes are something a very bad developer would do

No need to be toxic because you don't like it.

By the way playing games is about wasting life

Weapons that cannot keep enemies of equal level for 1 minute at full ammunition are rubbish.

I don’t think that there is someone who will continue to use the brahma - it occupies the main slot, and at the same time it cannot fulfill the task of ranged weapons.

Perhaps you did not understand, but even if you reduced any other characteristic, or several, the brahma would be less competitive.

 

But a decrease in the amount of ammunition completely eliminates all its positive qualities at 0.
It cannot be used on an ongoing basis - only as an auxiliary weapon.

[Schm1ddi]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

Please, if you want to convince us - enter into a discussion and give arguments. If everything suits you - go drink tea with mint, watch a video on YouTube, take a walk on the street, do not bother people from communicating.

🙂

This! 🙂

 

Yeah, i would say: Nerf the "Reload / Charge - Time" for the first Step.

Set it on 0.80 or 1.00 Charge Speed. Lets test it a week.

Is this not enough, next Step i would say: less Critical Chance. From 35% to 28%.

More not enough = Nerf Critical Damage. From 2.1 to 1.9.

Last Step. Nerf Damage Output. Here we must find a sweetspot for a legit Nerf.

I find enough Solutuions to balance a Overpowerd Weapon. No Problem.

Lenz Bow i find for a Comparison vs Kuva Bramma Stats. I would set the Kuva Bramma little bit better but no more weak as the Lenz..

 

I think, i can rebalance the Kuva Bramma better as DE himself and would makes all Players happy for a "legit" nerfed Weapon.

Enough Mods to Deal with it - but no one can still handle this Nerf now.

 

Best Regards

Schm1ddi

 

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

Weapons that cannot keep enemies of equal level for 1 minute at full ammunition are rubbish.

I don’t think that there is someone who will continue to use the brahma - it occupies the main slot, and at the same time it cannot fulfill the task of ranged weapons.

Perhaps you did not understand, but even if you reduced any other characteristic, or several, the brahma would be less competitive.

 

But a decrease in the amount of ammunition completely eliminates all its positive qualities at 0.
It cannot be used on an ongoing basis - only as an auxiliary weapon.

Dude that was the freaking problem of that weapon. 

 

[Schm1ddi]

Is that ouer Problem?

U buy a "farmed Lich" with a lower MR.  This was the Problem, not the Kuva Bramma himself.

Most Player dont need a "Brain" for make great Mod Build for High Level fighting. Same with the Mods. U can buy it all.

Youtube and Co tells all for that. Or u copy that from other Weapon. Most Weapons are have the same Build.

Wuhuhu 1-3 Mods are others. And now? So hard modding a Bramma? Rly? *facepalm*

 

But ok, with Kuva Bramma "Haters" we dosemt must talk or to discuss.

 

In others Words, DE will rebalane  the Kuva Bramma. I am sure. This Nerf was to much on wrong turn / side.

So long

Schm1ddi

[Bandileros]

What will stop me from taking a necros, using 3 skills, using pills to restore ammunition, aura to increase the selected ammunition of a sniper rifle, and spamming from a bramma as before?

Nothing.
And it won’t hurt others.
But playing became unpleasant. Exactly what is unpleasant.

To solve the problem of brahma - it was necessary to reduce the speed of the bowstring tension several times so that it was impossible to spam explosive attacks. And to reduce critical damage, as the user said above, because fast bowstring and large critical damage for AOE weapons are illogical.

Now everyone will just take the tonkor, and will blow everything around him.

Problems, officer?
 

[-Sandman]

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

You're still trying to make an argument about privilege on a video game, it's not flying.

Clearly you don't actually understand the meaning of the word or how it operates.

 

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

 And to accuse me of gloating?  

Because you clearly were

 

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

I'm allllll for creative cheesing of things but. . .

I'm allllll for creative cheesing of things but. . . Only what I find fun.. <--- Fixed it for you

 

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

 You use time consuming as a vague argument, 

I use time consuming in response to your statement that it's not when it clearly is. You have contradicted yourself so many times in making your point about time I am not going to even respond further to it. 

 

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

 And I'm not forcing anyone to play the game like I do, I'm offering solutions towards your complaint and you're still crying.  

I wouldn't even call that a solution, that's just a way to pass the time which remains the same. Why not recommend some shows on Netflix and some recipes while your're at it then?

 

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

 And cashcow?  You're funny.  This game literally doesn't force you to make any actual real money purchases; you can get around any paywall with a little effort ( that's still fun; you talk of fissures like it's work, it's still a game) other than some cosmetics.  Which, guess what, we live in a system of capitalism that requires game companies to *gasp* make money in order to survive, so that argument?  Applies to ALL games.  If you're miserable about the game you're playing, which you certainly sound like if you have to project said misery onto someone else, you should really consider something else.  Look, I used to be that gamer.  I went through about a year royally hating the game I used to love for years and years, and stuck with it thinking it'd get better.   Just quit.  Or take (more) time away from the game.  

I was waiting for this. The term cashcow is self explanatory and doesn't mean obligatory (I'm not even going to bother responding to the statement about capitalism). And you still bandy about "little effort", let's say at 1 hour to acquire Forma Bp's, 2 hours to farm the Bramma larvling, 2 hours to farm the lich, 2 hours to level the weapon 6 times; at 20 mins play time a day that's 21 days that adds up to. 

 

3 hours ago, Verashai said:

And as far as frames go; oh definitely, this is totally whataboutism.  I can have opinions about weapons that take out all the skill in game and also have said opinions on warframes that do the same, but the topic of this thread IS Bramma, so I have tried to stay on topic because of that, but it's clearly gone off topic anyways.  

You really gonna talk about Tu Quoque when you have quite literally compared Warframe to other games several times in your post? 

 

4 hours ago, Verashai said:

 Just quit.  

Because my way or the high way is always a sustainable solution..... right

 

[(PSN)Rook117]

31 minutes ago, SirLagThe1st said:

I am sorry but I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

The weapon wasn't actually nerfed but fixed from a vfx point of view and made idiot proof (as all OP weapons should be), if you're crying, then I feel sorry for you (only just a little).

The weapon had too many safety nets, and was used by a lot of people that didn't even have access to content where that weapon was even usable, instead, spamming it and making everyone lag just for the fun of it and don't even try to deny it, you were aware of this for the past months.

As for DE, you forgot to rise the MR required for this weapon to a level where people actually NEED this weapon and where they already know how to properly mod it by themselves.

This I agree with.

 

It is also too easily accessible especially when ANYONE can just buy it without putting in any work.

 

Thats kinda cheap.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

What will stop me from taking a necros, using 3 skills, using pills to restore ammunition, aura to increase the selected ammunition of a sniper rifle, and spamming from a bramma as before?

Nothing.
And it won’t hurt others.
But playing became unpleasant. Exactly what is unpleasant.

To solve the problem of brahma - it was necessary to reduce the speed of the bowstring tension several times so that it was impossible to spam explosive attacks. And to reduce critical damage, as the user said above, because fast bowstring and large critical damage for AOE weapons are illogical.

Now everyone will just take the tonkor, and will blow everything around him.

Problems, officer?
 

I have no problems with that.

charge time 0,8sec, Crit. nerf and ammunition nerf. 

I will still play this weapon.

Nerf's must be unpleasant. Life is not guns and roses, where you can decide which nerf changes you like more.

You don't like the nerf? Bad luck. I like it.

But like you said you can use the tonkor

 

[(PSN)Rook117]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Svenx13 said:

I have no problems with that.

charge time 0,8sec, Crit. nerf and ammunition nerf. 

I will still play this weapon.

Nerf's must be unpleasant. Life is not guns and roses, where you can decide which nerf changes you like more.

You don't like the nerf? Bad luck. I like it.

But like you said you can use the tonkor

 

I second that!!

[Bandileros]

38 минут назад, (PS4)Svenx13 сказал:

Dude that was the freaking problem of that weapon. 

 

 

Problem: rate of fire is too large, allowing players to spam attacks.
Solution: reduce ammunition so that the weapons are simply no longer used.

Is it logical?

[-Sandman]

6 hours ago, Maganar said:

Actually, this was one of the most widely-requested ways of nerfing the weapon, as it reduces its ability to spam and fill the map with eye-bleed projectiles and encourages smart use rather than flailing it at even solo enemies where it takes overkill to a completely surreal level - and yet does all of this without reducing the weapon's stopping power, thus allowing the fun factor of a one-shot, bomb-launching bow to remain intact.

This was both a shrewdly considered balancing choice and a widely-requested adjustment by the community.  Also... what exactly where you putting in the exilus slot - which can't take damage mods anyway - other than Vigilante Supplies already?  It boosts DPS indirectly with 5% crit enhancement and even at 15 arrows, a mutation mod was an obvious choice.  This just made an obvious choice even more obvious and you're complaining about that?

They increased the AoE, which of course you whine isn't large enough on the next line, so that AoE remains intact.  There is a completely different reason for reducing cluster projectiles that you are completely failing to grasp - status effect application.  Every individual projectile can apply status independently, leading to excessively high numbers of Viral + Slash procs from the rather obvious Viral + Hunter Munitions build that was apparent for this weapon the moment its stats were revealed.  This leads to it being far, far more effective at instantly erasing heavy targets than AoE weapons should - since they are generally focused more on clearing area of the trash mobs and softening up the big bois.

They make a buff to compensate, but your hate train demands that you categorically disapprove of every choice they make, so you make a wildly excessive suggestion to try and make it look like they are only throwing you a bone rather than actually taking players desiring AoE into account.  This isn't an effective argument.  Your suggestion comes across more like a spoof of a critique than an actual critique at this point with how far you have ventured into the realm of hyperbole.

You claim it's "walled behind a massive grind" ...accurately, I might even add.  And yet it's over three times more popular than the next weapon on the charts, but you don't take this as a sign that this massive grind is an insufficient deterrent for less ambitious players to settle for less with another launcher or even weapons of another type entirely?  Kuva Bramma has been such a wildly devastating and over-the-top weapon since release, only exacerbated by the removal of self-damage, that even that massive grind is a small price to pay for players to have the only weapon that seemed to be worth having.  Open your eyes.  Regardless of how spited you may feel, this isn't a choice made out of spite.  This is choice made because things were spiraling out of control.

Again, open your eyes.  Your viewpoint is not the only one in the community.  Just because you only care that the mission is done doesn't mean that everyone else wants to be forced to be spectator to a fireworks display.  If you really feel the game is about killing stuff, then why do you find it so hard to understand that players who don't care for Kuva Bramma might want the chance to actually kill stuff in their public missions?  This is also completely ignoring the legitimate detriments of this weapon being spammed in a mission, like nonstop eye-bleed detonations from 7 cluster bombs and cacophony of explosions with each shot fired with the second-fastest draw time of any bow that has no ammo issues to speak of since everyone is using Vigilante Armaments.

And based on the fact that DE chose to implement the widely-requested suggestion to nerf the ammo pool rather than the damage, preserving the feel of the weapon while reducing its spammability, yeah, I'd say they were definitely listening to feedback.  But since you refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of any claims other than your own, despite the abundance of detractors to your stance, it's obviously going to look like DE have closed all the lines of communication and are ignoring you.  That's because you're ignoring the conversation and just ranting that your precious baby might be touched by a hint of game balance, so you're not following the discussion going on.  DE is, and they are acting based on that feedback.

Don't humiliate yourself like this by making a long list of line-by-line breakdowns of the dev post, ranting and raving with accusations that are easily dismissed and a general failure to understand the reasoning of the people whose opinions you oppose.  Even if you don't agree with the change, you should be able to understand the logic behind reducing firing-spam without slowing the draw time by instead targeting the ammo pool, or reducing single-target damage without reducing mob clear by decreasing the number of projectiles that provide an abundance of overlapping Viral+Slash procs, but maintaining the damage numbers to still nuke the trash mobs.  If you can't even see the logic behind such changes, your complaints accomplish nothing other than revealing the narrow breadth of your mind rather than persuading anyone to take your side.  DE doesn't need to pretend about anything.  Their actions speak for themselves in their commitment to delivering a quality product despite mistakes such as pushing the bow live in such a blatantly oppressive (and visually/aurally distracting) state.

I still don't see how the eye bleed problem needs to result in a damage and ammo reduction though and why that took so long to be addressed when it was clearly such a huge issue. With respect to smart use: I have no issue with trying to stop the indiscriminate usage (even though I feel that there are worse problems that need to be dealt with first as outlined throughout this thread), but the few runs I had with it, I used it more like a secondary than a primary and that to me doesn't make sense. At the moment the ammo work around sure feels like a deterrent, and that to me is just as unhealthy for the community as over-usage. 

I really I feel this game is about nuking hoards and collecting loot, and players will always find the way to most efficiently do that; that's just a hallmark of the game imo. Especially with RNG being so tough sometimes, after repeating the same mission 50 times and no drop, I think this is one of the reasons that pushes the base in that direction; people will naturally gravitate to what they think will shave some time off of that regardless of it is in fact the best solution.

I think the stats can be misleading as purely looking at a overall percentage usage doesn't accurately capture the diversity of the game and as you rightly pointed out has lead to problems in the past. This leads me to believe that DE is true in saying that the changes are based on popularity, but I don't think this is the whole story with respect to why, and that there is a whole other economic dimension behind it which obviously they won't share. 

With respect to the quality comment, the fact that the first 5 attempts at the Jackal had to be aborted due to it remaining perpetually spinning invulnerably and my operator still calmly walking in space after exploding crewship tells me otherwise. Maybe the commitment is there but the delivery is something else. With respect to calling the release of the bow a mistake, I think that's being a bit naive when this has happened many times in the past and will happen again in future. 

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

 

Problem: rate of fire is too large, allowing players to spam attacks.
Solution: reduce ammunition so that the weapons are simply no longer used.

Is it logical?

 

Sure it is logical.

Because the problem is:  high ammunition capacity/availability allowing the players to sustain a ridiculously rate of fire.

You are very stubborn or simpleminded if you only look at part of the problem and then think "I have the only solution"

[-Sandman]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Svenx13 said:

Sure it is logical.

Because the problem is:  high ammunition capacity/availability allowing the players to sustain a ridiculously rate of fire.

You are very stubborn or simpleminded if you only look at part of the problem and then think "I have the only solution"

I think if someone really wanted to spam the rate the of fire they still would. To deal with the rate of fire by not changing the rate of fire to me is illogical. This is akin to an automaker saying their vehicle is not able to be slowed down effectively so instead of tweaking the braking system or limiting acceleration/speed they decide to reduce the fuel tank size. The fact that it could work doesn't make it a smart solution.