Please End Nightwaves

[(XBOX)Rez090]

Just now, Ceadeus said:

It's a feedback for the game.  Games besides Warframe can have an influence on Warframe and its playerbase.  If your only contribution is to make unproductive comments then take it to a different post, where you belong.

Except you haven't given ANY feedback here for how Warframe can be improved, you've only been ranting about other games "battlepasses" and how they handle them. Provide ACTUAL LEGIT feedback and people won't dismiss your thread.

[Kaotis]

hace 18 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

If you'll read the second part of that post you're replying to you'll see I was also talking about multiple different games, the vast majority of which have paid battlepasses rather than Warframe's free version.  

Commented before.

hace 19 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

If you had read any of the other information instead of assuming you know enough to be rude you might also see that this was more intended as a warning that playing part in the battle for peoples' time very well might hurt Warframe more than help it, free or not.

Firstly you don't know how much of the filler content you spat out i read. Secondly i haven't been rude to you in any moment. Thridly it's free don't be mistaken.

hace 21 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

I like Warframe, I've played Warframe ever since Banshee was new, I've sunk literal thousands of dollars into Warframe.

Duno how much of this is true but juding by your profile i'd guess not half.

hace 23 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

But I've never felt less encouraged to play the game than when attempting to do Nightwave content, not because it's that bad or takes that long in its own right, but because I have several other games that I'm juggling too, trying to find enough time to complete each of their version of a battlepass without completely burning out on all of them.

Ermmm excuse of having a life would have been better here but sure you play "many other games" so... that tels me what exactly? You care little for this one hmmm oke ...

 

hace 25 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

I've already completely stopped playing certain games entirely because while they were fun at their core, they weren't fun enough to justify putting time into them instead of using it to catch up where I'm behind.  This is the problem I'm talking about; battlepass culture will gradually choke itself out until your game has to be THE BEST game on the market to justify playing it because otherwise you're just wasting time and money not filling daily challenge requirements or whatever form they may take.

Behind in what exactly? i'ts not a contest or something "you must do "...

A battlepass is a quest list or achievement thing you can do to feel some sort of progression in a game ... not a culture... getting MR 30 is not MR culture it's just a thing you do as a personal objective in THIS game.

 

There you go completely cuoted that filler content you called reply.

[Xarteros]

Gang, FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) is a very real thing, and it really can be severely negative on a game's long-term marketability. While I'm sure a huge number of active Warframe players make it through Nightwave with plenty of time to spare, it's really punishing and offputting to those who return from a hiatus or those who are just joining and are still too new to complete Nightwave (or understand/appreciate the rewards). If you're one of the ones who can easily make it through Nightwave, that's great! But that just means that you're not in a position to properly share the concern of many players experiencing FOMO from Nightwave and other exclusive events.

With so many games requiring daily missions, challenges, crafting, and even just logins, you want to make sure that players aren't so afraid of missing out that they burn out and give up on the game completely in favour of games with less FOMO.

That's not to say that Nightwave should be removed, either, nor is it to say that we should rely solely on Intermissions for bringing back rewards.

Some ways to help reduce FOMO without impacting the gameplay of others:

• Add all Nightwave tracks to a list that players can select/make active, much like quests.
  • GuildWars 2 has a good example, with their PvP rewards tracks that let players more or less pick what they want to progress towards
  • Weekly/Daily challenges would just become a constant thing, and only tie in to a player's selected rewards track. The spawn-in-enemies for each Nightwave chapter might have to either change their dynamic, or be limited to parties that share the same track (or allow a little bit of cross-track dabbling, since the overall standing from those enemies is fairly low)
  • There would only be one Intermission track, with an endless loop of Intermission credits for those who have no interest in the Chapter tracks, or those who have already completed those tracks.
  • DE could make "Vault" tracks with special Credits that players can buy vaulted items wherever DE needs to de-bloat drop tables
• Add "Flashbacks" of events that allow players to revisit old events after X time of the original event's launch and go for the rewards again
  • That way, DE don't have to drop Plague Stars all over Cetus and inconvenience players who are frustrated with the repetition, but it allows players to go back and earn duplicates of the rewards, catch up their clans and try out experiences that they missed (and also get more use out of the extra dialogue and other resources that DE put in to the events)
  • Making it accessible after a certain period of time since the original launch means players can still be enticed by being ahead of the rest and keep up-to-date with event rewards, but without using FOMO to punish people who simply don't have the time, friends, effort or lifestyle to play the event before it's gone.

There are some really great ways that you can entice players to complete collections and keep on coming back, but FOMO is one of the worst ones. I've virtually run out of things to do on Warframe, but I would spend countless hours revisiting old events if I could, just to get trophies for the clan I only recently-ish started as a solo art project. Particularly since these events and Nightwaves all contain pieces of the pretty scant lore, so each piece has some form of value to those who want to pursue the lore more. I mean hey, they made it so we can replay most quests for exactly that reason, so it's not that unreasonable.

[Kaotis]

hace 5 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

You really could not have created a more twisted narrative, could you?  Let me break it into something a small child should understand: If you're starving and you have 3 M&M's and 7 people want 1, you don't have enough M&M's to go around, someone's going to go hungry.  Now let's change some things: If you have 3 hours in a day and 7 games want 1 hour a day, you don't have enough time to go around, something's not getting played.

I'm sincerely doubting some things you might believe about your self but oke.

You do realize that as a game publisher... your main focus is keep your player base active for the maximum amount of possible time right? Let me put it in simple worlds that even you can understand : play time is not money for DE .... Play time is posible marketing and friends of players come in ..... more players more possible money .... money keeps servers online and people employed. Welcome to reality where daddy and mommy don't pay your bills.

hace 10 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

The point being that monetized or not, games are going to have to be cut from your routines.  So, as a developer, that means if your game isn't somebody's top 3, they simply won't play it because they are obligated to sink time into these other games to keep up, again, monetized or not.

As a developer in that situation means you will probably have to design a new game, bring back player attention or sadly find another job 

You trow around the money stigma a lot, i'm starting to think you didn't spent a cent in this game.

hace 12 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

The feedback is to not try to force players to divide their time and in turn make yourself compete with every other game that wants them to do the same thing, because there's a good chance you'll be the one that doesn't make the cut.

Is for actual feedback on the sate of some particular aspect of THIS game. 

The rest you spat out... i'm sorry but i'm not under the influence of sufficient alcohol to understand what you are trying to say.

Are you sure you didn't mean to post this topic this on reddit  or something ?

[Ceadeus]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

Except you haven't given ANY feedback here for how Warframe can be improved, you've only been ranting about other games "battlepasses" and how they handle them. Provide ACTUAL LEGIT feedback and people won't dismiss your thread.

Literally in the title as well as the original post.  Please try reading first as you'll see there are some other thorough replies agreeing with what I said and expanding on their own views as well.

3 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Except you haven't given ANY feedback here for how Warframe can be improved, you've only been ranting about other games "battlepasses" and how they handle them. Provide ACTUAL LEGIT feedback and people won't dismiss your thread.

The first thing you did was imply I was ungrateful to DE for the game they've made and also that I have a gambling problem which was entirely an unbased accusation completely unrelated to anything I've said here.

5 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Thridly it's free don't be mistaken.

The reason I said monetized or not was to reiterate how it's irrelevant because the same consequences apply to using these practices.  Something else you would've picked up if you'd actually read since we both know you didn't.

6 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Thridly it's free don't be mistaken.

https://i.gyazo.com/75d22d13a3e2c4dea274327e58f31780.png

12 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Ermmm excuse of having a life would have been better here but sure you play "many other games" so... that tels me what exactly? You care little for this one hmmm oke ...

 

It means I like all of these games, but with all of them demanding arbitrary amounts of time under threat of missing content it also means I simply can't play all of them and keep up.  Games that don't have a threat of missing content aren't at risk of getting abandoned.

13 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Behind in what exactly? i'ts not a contest or something "you must do "...

A battlepass is a quest list or achievement thing you can do to feel some sort of progression in a game ... not a culture... getting MR 30 is not MR culture it's just a thing you do as a personal objective in THIS game.

 

There you go completely cuoted that filler content you called reply.

Those same battlepass-like tasks.  The difference between a battlepass and hitting MR 30 to use your own example, is that one is a permanent fixture that will never change or disappear as long as the game remains active (assuming no radical reworks to MR obviously), the other is a time limited obligation that has to be juggled with other obligations.  You keep wanting to return this to "Well Warframe does..." but the problem is not with what Warframe does or how it does it, but the fact that every company doing something similar means player retention can only decline as newer and/or better games come out, where they could otherwise co-exist.

[Ceadeus]

4 minutes ago, kaotis said:

I'm sincerely doubting some things you might believe about your self but oke.

You do realize that as a game publisher... your main focus is keep your player base active for the maximum amount of possible time right? Let me put it in simple worlds that even you can understand : play time is not money for DE .... Play time is posible marketing and friends of players come in ..... more players more possible money .... money keeps servers online and people employed. Welcome to reality where daddy and mommy don't pay your bills.

That works great when you're not also competing with other games, because the actual reality is that in most games anymore, play time IS money.  If you buy a battlepass and choose to not play, you are actively losing money.  DE has to compete to not only make a game that you want to play, but also one that competes with other games you want to play that are also costing you money if you're not.

6 minutes ago, kaotis said:

As a developer in that situation means you will probably have to design a new game, bring back player attention or sadly find another job 

I don't know how you think game design works, but it's not free.  If your game gets immediately overshadowed and replaced, you're probably in the hole quite a bit.  Battlepass culture creates an environment where it's feast or famine, if your game is not good enough to justify replacing the time you would otherwise spend in another game's battlepass routine, then it dies.  If the battlepass routine didn't exist, you would simply have time to play both games whenever you felt like it with no risks involved.

10 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Is for actual feedback on the sate of some particular aspect of THIS game. 

Yes, Nightwave, which actively participates in that same exact battle for the player's time, thus it's subject to all the same consequences when someone decides it's not worth the time and all the money that went into the development as well as any money that would have been received from them as a loyal player and customer is now down the drain.

[Kaotis]

hace 3 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

The reason I said monetized or not was to reiterate how it's irrelevant because the same consequences apply to using these practices.  Something else you would've picked up if you'd actually read since we both know you didn't.

Sure if that makes you sleep well at night you can believe what ever you want , even the part about the tooth fairy.

hace 3 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

https://i.gyazo.com/75d22d13a3e2c4dea274327e58f31780.png

Yeaa , you do know you are showing only a nr that can be actually modified even with paint and not actually that has any possible way to confirming s real right? Here somthign i did in les than 2 mins in paint : https://ibb.co/YBcxqSq  ( even put in a fake just for you)

hace 18 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

It means I like all of these games, but with all of them demanding arbitrary amounts of time under threat of missing content it also means I simply can't play all of them and keep up.  Games that don't have a threat of missing content aren't at risk of getting abandoned.

You don't play them because you aren't forced to ... so you abandon them no? This is basic logic ....

 

hace 19 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

Those same battlepass-like tasks.  The difference between a battlepass and hitting MR 30 to use your own example, is that one is a permanent fixture that will never change or disappear as long as the game remains active (assuming no radical reworks to MR obviously), the other is a time limited obligation that has to be juggled with other obligations.  You keep wanting to return this to "Well Warframe does..." but the problem is not with what Warframe does or how it does it, but the fact that every company doing something similar means player retention can only decline as newer and/or better games come out, where they could otherwise co-exist.

No one has gone out of their way to put a grinner tug in front of your house to intimidate you to play this game man, This season pass , battlepass or what ever you wish to call them are tasks so you don't get bored of the game, 1 or 2 weapons (technically i believe only one until now) was mildly related to the nightwave ... nothing more that had a greater impact on MR or anything... all fashionframe or free stuf you got just from playing... wow so unfair ... wow DE must be playing some 5,6 dimensional chess right now to keep us invested.

[Kaotis]

hace 25 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

I don't know how you think game design works, but it's not free.  If your game gets immediately overshadowed and replaced, you're probably in the hole quite a bit.  Battlepass culture creates an environment where it's feast or famine, if your game is not good enough to justify replacing the time you would otherwise spend in another game's battlepass routine, then it dies.  If the battlepass routine didn't exist, you would simply have time to play both games whenever you felt like it with no risks involved.

Did you actually read what i said? a developer if it's not a independent affair ... works generally for a company ... what do you think the many branches of EA games(for example some one that keeps more than 1 game) do right now? sit around and wait for money to fall? No, they actively develop new games(or to be more exact on this case, recycle old stuff with new skins) and sell them...  <--- Actually tired to explain to you how this industry works and i believe it would be a waste of time from my part.

THIS GAME IS FREE and you are free, enjoy . 

Edited June 12, 2020 by kaotis

[DebrisFlow]

53 minutes ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

Except you haven't given ANY feedback here for how Warframe can be improved, you've only been ranting about other games "battlepasses" and how they handle them. Provide ACTUAL LEGIT feedback and people won't dismiss your thread.

The feedback on how the game can be inproved is in the TITLE itself and clearly in the closing paragraph of the post. The post then contains the generalized motivations that can be coming from Warframe as well as other games.

Edited June 12, 2020 by DebrisFlow

[Ceadeus]

2 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Yeaa , you do know you are showing only a nr that can be actually modified even with paint and not actually that has any possible way to confirming s real right? Here somthign i did in les than 2 mins in paint : https://ibb.co/YBcxqSq  ( even put in a fake just for you)

Yes and I could also fabricate all the quotes to make you agree with me watch:

2 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Yeah, you're totally right, battlepasses are self-destructive and will ultimately lead to the collapse of gaming as a hobby if they aren't abandoned.  And you're right, I didn't read any of this or even bother to see what any of these posts have been about, that's why I keep talking about how Warframe is free and ignoring the hard fact that that is 100% utterly and totally irrelevant to any of the concepts being discussed.

See?  Easy.  But that doesn't really help the discussion to use fake posts, so why would I bother faking the amount I've spent in the game?  Obviously I'm not going to show you personal financial records.

5 minutes ago, kaotis said:

You don't play them because you aren't forced to ... so you abandon them no? This is basic logic ....

I don't abandon the ones that don't force me to play because I can simply play them whenever I want and I will always have access to the same content, where games that force me to play through some sort of battlepass are only played out of obligation and only serve to further burnout or a simple lack of interest due to no time to invest for its rewards as opposed to another game's.  Hence games choking each other out, like I've said from the beginning.

9 minutes ago, kaotis said:

No one has gone out of their way to put a grinner tug in front of your house to intimidate you to play this game man, This season pass , battlepass or what ever you wish to call them are tasks so you don't get bored of the game, 1 or 2 weapons (technically i believe only one until now) was mildly related to the nightwave ... nothing more that had a greater impact on MR or anything... all fashionframe or free stuf you got just from playing... wow so unfair ... wow DE must be playing some 5,6 dimensional chess right now to keep us invested.

Once again you completely and utterly make up some fake narrative where I called out DE even though that never happened and I even have a post in here praising DE for handling their version of the battlepass better than others, but like I've been repeatedly trying to get you to understand, even if they have the best version that still doesn't exclude them from the same consequences that come with using that content model.

11 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Did you actually read what i said? a developer if it's not a independent affair ... works generally for a company ... what do you think the many branches of EA games do right now? sit around and wait for money to fall? No, they actively develop new games(or to be more exact on this case, recycle old stuff with new skins) and sell them...  <--- Actually tired to explain to you how this industry works and i believe it would be a waste of time from my part.

THIS GAME IS FREE and you are free, enjoy . 

You've again managed to say a bunch of stuff completely and utterly irrelevant while ignoring every single important part of the topic.  It's actually impressive that you can miss the whole point of this topic that hard and still have the confidence to continue replying as if anything you have said at any point in this entire thread has been even remotely related to the post.

[AltheusVI]

2 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Nope, if you lose the umbra forma you lose it forever. In the intermission you get another one. So you end up with less and no way to catch up.

Except to wait for the next one, you'll be delayed, not denied.

[Kaotis]

hace 28 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

See?  Easy.  But that doesn't really help the discussion to use fake posts, so why would I bother faking the amount I've spent in the game?  Obviously I'm not going to show you personal financial records.

You would do it in order for others not to think you are exaggerating( btw thousands.... is not 1,6  means at least plurar of 2 minimum .... just saying)

 

hace 28 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

You've again managed to say a bunch of stuff completely and utterly irrelevant while ignoring every single important part of the topic.  It's actually impressive that you can miss the whole point of this topic that hard and still have the confidence to continue replying as if anything you have said at any point in this entire thread has been even remotely related to the post.

At least i'm talking about the game this forums is about ... dunno what fantasy land you are talking about , coz you used "games" several times implying you aren't referring to just this one...

Ignore what exactly? i told you what ever forces you to have such dislike for nightwave is on you and no one is forcing you to anything. You come over at the forums say "uga buga nightwave bad " and then splurge out money this money that and trow out a picture that can be done in less than 5 mins with paint to prove some random that called you out on your bluff of "thousands" (that btw you didn't spend " literally thousands" you only spent 1 and half)... 

For starters you don't understand that the old alert system was x10 times worse than nightwave could ever be, secondly some resources and bp s don't have a drop spot where they could be dumped if this system was removed. And to end, because tbh you are beginning to be annoy( guess it can't be helped at your age) me , you start a topic say things like " adopt this toxic monetization" but don't actually provide an alternative proving that you actually don't have any idea what you are talking about or the implications it might have to the game.

Edited June 12, 2020 by kaotis

[DebrisFlow]

16 minutes ago, AltheusVI said:

3 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Nope, if you lose the umbra forma you lose it forever. In the intermission you get another one. So you end up with less and no way to catch up.

Except to wait for the next one, you'll be delayed, not denied.

Sigh...that is not catching up, that is following in the distance without a way to close the gap. Umbra forma, as opposed to every other consumable in game, has limited availability. This means that a new player that starts the game now can catch-up with older players in weapons, warframes and normal formas by farming or spending plat, while it is impossible to obtain the same number of umbra formas. He who misses one will be alwasy steps behind. He will be denied the amount of UF an older player has. This is an entirely new system of exlcusion in Warframe that was not present before. 

[Ceadeus]

23 minutes ago, kaotis said:

You would do it in order for others not to think you are exaggerating( btw thousands.... is not 1,6  means at least plurar of 2 minimum .... just saying)

I spent several hundred before Warframe was ever even on Steam (Which is what that number is from btw).

23 minutes ago, kaotis said:

At least i'm talking about the game this forums is about ... dunno what fantasy land you are talking about , coz you used "games" several times implying you aren't referring to just this one...

Still not sure why the concept of other games influencing this one is so hard for you to grasp.  You can bring up other games and still be talking about concepts that directly affect this game as well.

23 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Ignore what exactly? i told you what ever forces you to have such dislike for nightwave is on you and no one is forcing you to anything. You come over at the forums say "uga buga nightwave bad " and then splurge out money this money that and trow out a picture that can be done in less than 5 mins with paint to prove some random that called you out on your bluff of "thousands" (that btw you didn't spend " literally thousands" you only spent 1 and half)... 

You've literally ignored everything I've said.  Every post you just come back and reiterate the same comment just like you have now, and every time I tell you how the very core of your argument is flawed because you're making assumptions about my stance instead of actually processing any of the information I've put out.  Just like how you assumed I was lying about the amount I've spent.

23 minutes ago, kaotis said:

For starters you don't understand that the old alert system was x10 times worse than nightwave could ever be, secondly some resources and bp s don't have a drop spot where they could be dumped if this system was removed. And to end, because tbh you are beginning to be annoy( guess it can't be helped at your age) me , you start a topic say things like " adopt this toxic monetization" but don't actually provide an alternative proving that you actually don't have any idea what you are talking about or the implications it might have to the game.

I absolutely understand what was wrong with the old alert system, I've played with it for years.  I never once said that alerts were just all around better than Nightwave, but the fact remains that Nightwave also has other problems that alerts didn't, even if it fixes some that it did; namely its competition with other time limited content.  I didn't provide an alternative because this topic was meant to draw awareness to the negative effects of the entire battlepass structure, not to entertain the idea that it just needs some modifications to make it "good".  If you're really so dedicated to implying that I hate Nightwave or DE or whatever when I never said anything even remotely close to that, I'll tell you right now I think Nightwave is the best implementation of a battlepass concept so far, that being said, and just like I've said about 10 times now, it's still a battlepass which means it's still subject to all the same consequences that come with them.  I've repeatedly outlined those implications to which you fixate on how I talk about the fact that other games are involved in those implications and how this is a Warframe forum, as if the simple existence of other games in the context invalidates the ramifications it would have on Warframe.
 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Ceadeus

[AltheusVI]

19 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

Sigh...that is not catching up, that is following in the distance without a way to close the gap. Umbra forma, as opposed to every other consumable in game, has limited availability. This means that a new player that starts the game now can catch-up with older players in weapons, warframes and normal formas by farming or spending plat, while it is impossible to obtain the same number of umbra formas. He who misses one will be alwasy steps behind. He will be denied the amount of UF an older player has. This is an entirely new system of exlcusion in Warframe that was not present before. 

Not really, you can only use one warframe at a time, and only with 3 umbral mods (so far on it). In any given mission you will not be behind anyone else, even if you are, what does it matter? You got a shiny thing slightly later than others.

[Kaotis]

hace 37 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

I spent several hundred before Warframe was ever even on Steam (Which is what that number is from btw).

Oh but don't you see i spent 9999 as well on this game 

 

hace 37 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

You've literally ignored everything I've said.

You didn't say anything, just monetizing this ,i spent this (then ups no i played this before the game was on steam yet you started playing mid september 2013 and the game was put on steam end of march 25  hmmmmm 🤔🤔)

, paid this that , i will lose interest because you give me something to do on a weekly basis... no actual substitute to nightwave nor anything remotely constructive only bring awareness :

hace 37 minutos, Ceadeus dijo:

I absolutely understand what was wrong with the old alert system, I've played with it for years.  I never once said that alerts were just all around better than Nightwave, but the fact remains that Nightwave also has other problems that alerts didn't, even if it fixes some that it did; namely its competition with other time limited content.  I didn't provide an alternative because this topic was meant to draw awareness to the negative effects of the entire battlepass structure, not to entertain the idea that it just needs some modifications to make it "good".  If you're really so dedicated to implying that I hate Nightwave or DE or whatever when I never said anything even remotely close to that, I'll tell you right now I think Nightwave is the best implementation of a battlepass concept so far, that being said, and just like I've said about 10 times now, it's still a battlepass which means it's still subject to all the same consequences that come with them.  I've repeatedly outlined those implications to which you fixate on the fact that I talk about the fact that other games are involved in those implications and how this is a Warframe forum, as if the simple existence of other games in the context invalidates the ramifications it would have on Warframe.

As far as i know most main stream games triple A or Indie have seen positive results across the board with their battle pass /seasonal thing, only exception to this are games that no matter how much gold paint you use on the wood door it will stil be a wooden door.

So awareness of a game mechanic that keeps players engaged and guarantees loyalty of the playerbase... oke awareness received , do you want to add something more to share awareness of ? 

Edited June 12, 2020 by kaotis

[Teljaxx]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

That's exactly where we're headed now. Live Services are becoming incestuous again. They've stopped developing new ideas, and instead just copy each other's monetisation practices until every Live Service looks and plays like every other one. They've also largely stopped pushing for innovative gameplay or story telling, stopped trying to attract new players. Instead, they focus on extracting more money and more "engagement" out of their existing player base. We've already had at least one major flop in Anthem, and do you know WHY it flopped? Because despite having all the checkboxes for a modern Live Service, Bioware kind of forgot to attach a game to the progression and monetisation systems. That's what I see Nightwave as - a Battle Pass system that DE never really bothered to put actual gameplay behind.

Anthem is basically two halves of two different games haphazardly glued together. Its got parts of the story and world building of a typical Bioware game, like Mass Effect, and the basics of a looter shooter MMO, like Destiny. But, they didn't quite fit them together properly, and they get in the way of each other. Watching cutscenes and talking to townsfolk interrupts playing co-op, and the slow tedious grinding ruins the story progression.

At its core, the gameplay of Anthem is really fun, and the world they created is really cool. And if Bioware had been allowed to make it the kind of Mass Effect style game they are actually good at making, it could have been another Mass Effect level hit. But, instead, EA saw the massive profits that are coming from the "live service" MMO genre right now, and forced Bioware to jump on that gravy train, without ever considering the consequences. Because who cares if a game is fun if its got tons of ways to take your money, right?

Even though Anthem launched in such a broken state, and immediately failed, they still released several updates for it. Of course, none of those actually fixed any bugs, or improved the gameplay in any meaningful way. But you can bet your boots they added a ton of new stuff to spend money on, because that's the whole point of these games.

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I've often described Warframe as a genuinely good game fundamentally undermined by its own progression and monetisation system. Other than Lootboxes, Warframe has embraced pretty much all the modern Live Service bad practices, from Skinner box design to artificial exclusivity to appointment mechanics to in-game gambling and to the ever-popular Battle Pass. Nightwave operates almost exclusively on people's FOMO, using the threat of missing items which might not be back for years to coerce people into playing not just WHEN they don't want to but WHAT they don't want to. What I don't think Live Service developers don't seem to realise, however, is that these designs are becoming adversarial in the same way ads/commercials have become. Nobody likes any of these systems, but we put up with them because we like the underlying game. Any chance we get, however, we try to minimise or circumvent them. Game design has turned into a battle between developers trying to trick people into wasting our time, and we trying to trick developers into giving us rewards for little effort. And I don't think that's a battle developers are going to win in the long run.

Exactly. Just like Anthem, at its core, Warframe is really fun, and has interesting lore. But, its all being slowly buried under all the worst parts of the genre. Honestly, I don't think DE is doing it out of greed, or spite, or anything sinister like that. It seems more like they simply see the popularity of these other games, and want to make Warframe that popular too. But they don't seem to realize that most of the popularity those games enjoy is more akin to stockholm syndrome, that actual love and enjoyment.

If they keep going like this, they will eventually end up driving everyone away. Because there is always a point where the good parts stop being worth dealing with the bad parts. That's why I very quickly went from playing almost every day, to taking an almost year long break. And at this point, I basically just log in whenever something new comes along, immediately get reminded of why I stopped playing, and then go play something else that actually respects my time.

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And for those saying that "it's a free game, you should be grateful" - it isn't and I'm not. There's no such thing as a "free game." At best there might be "free to YOU" games, but they're only free to you because I and whales like me foot the bill for ourselves and you. The "free way to earn rewards" is never the intended way. It's a decoy, a means of attaining the plausible deniability needed to call the game "free." The intended way of earning things is to pay for them, but the company can afford to give away free samples to people willing to waste their time with deliberately unpleasant grinds. Do you remember The Culling 2, which launched with a subscription fee and a pay-per-match system, that made the news for a few days? It was pretty clear that the developers wanted a subscription-based game. However, because those don't sell in the world of "free to play" games, they had to also create a non-subscription alternative. You can, uh... Pay for individual matches? Yeah, and also you can earn more matches by winning them? But you're still supposed to subscribe, though.

By this point, I've given up on treating Warframe like a F2P title. It is for some - usually the Secondary Market resellers whom DE use as cover in order to claim they don't sell power. For me, though? I already have a job. I'm not looking for a second one. I'm not looking for a game where I can work in order to be paid in scrip. So no, I don't intend to show gratitude to DE for deigning to let me play a watered-down version of the intended experience "for free" replete with the Live Service equivalent of commercial breaks. F2P games are no different from the Subscription MMOs of the past, just with an extra layer of obfuscation thrown on top. This one even has its own staggered subscription model via monthly Booster packs.

The simple fact that DE sells boosters of any sort is them admitting that the normal progression rate is too slow. Because there is monetary value in making it go faster.

This is because, one thing both players and even the developers and publishers never acknowledge is that time is also a currency. And really, its the most valuable one of all. There is only so much time in the day, and your life, and you can never get it back. This is why the "pay or grind" model of monetization works so well. But, even though everyone calls the grinding choice the "free" one, it really isn't. Just because you haven't spent any of your cold hard cash on it, doesn't mean it didn't cost you anything.

As I said in my previous post, the game industry is choking itself to death because of this. The publishers don't seem to understand that there isn't infinite time for everyone to play all their infinite games.

And, really, I would much rather play a finite game that lasts like 10~30 hours, than one that never ends. They tend to be much better made, and be much more satisfying experiences overall. Mostly because they actually end. They can have a properly paced story with a dramatic ending that sticks with you long after you put down the controller. But these "live service" style games don't end. They don't go out with a bang, they just keep going until you stop playing, or they die. So, more than likely, your final experience and memories of the game will not be pleasant ones. So even if you spent thousands of hours enjoying the game, the main thing you will remember it for is its gruesome end.

 

Really, everyone here should just watch this video. It explains everything wrong with games like Warframe far better than I can, because it comes straight from the whaler's mouth. Apologies if it makes you rage vomit all over your keyboard, though.

 

[DebrisFlow]

2 minutes ago, AltheusVI said:

Not really, you can only use one warframe at a time, and only with 3 umbral mods (so far on it). In any given mission you will not be behind anyone else

What a counterproductive argument. So you want to tell to the average player that it is ok being limited to one umbraed warframe in a game (i have to repeat here for you since you didn't care to aknowledge) founded on built diversity and exploration? 

10 minutes ago, AltheusVI said:

what does it matter? You got a shiny thing slightly later than others.

slighly? one year and a half of slavishly following the game to obtain 3 UF? In a game made on collecting things and ticking boxes, this is pretty much disheartening. And without the possibility to catch up, as i already explained. Aknowledge that this matters.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

This isn't necessarily a direct Warframe feedback, but I would like to say that battlepass culture is going to kill gaming if it continues to gain dominance.  I'm being put into a position where I have to actively abandon games that I can't justify putting the time into because of their battlepass systems, because so many games continue to adopt this toxic monetization system that I physically don't have enough time to divide between them all without burning out on them and negatively impacting my own physical and mental well-being, both from the stress of games now feeling like a job that need an allotted amount of time to be dedicated to them to even get what I already paid money for, as well as the disappointment of missing out on content if I simply don't have that time.

Games that would otherwise have earned a place in my library and even the occasional purchase had this content simply been made a permanent installment are now being deleted because they simply don't offer enough outside that battlepass to outweigh the previously mentioned negatives.  I have more free time than most and I still don't feel like I have the time to manage all of these, I can only imagine the extent of an unhealthy lifestyle that is forced upon people who have other responsibilities if they choose to try and juggle all these different games trying to force both a time requirement and limit into their pricetags.

It hasn't come to that for Warframe yet, as I still greatly enjoy the game even without Nightwave content and the fact that Nightwave content is free, however, the more of these time limited content methods games adopt, the less time players will have to divide between them.  I do believe that it was once stated previous Nightwave content would return in some form - though that may simply be referring to the few items we see during intermissions - but it would be nice to get some clearer elaboration on the intent and vision of Nightwave with these repercussions in mind.

I'm sorry OP but you're describing a zero issue. Before this virus, I averaged 60 hour work weeks. I had no issues reaching max rank in nightwave. You have months to earn these rewards by just playing the game. At rank 1, you can obtain more Nitain extracts than you'll ever need...which was the great whine of losing the old alerts. Why would DE miss an opportunity to combine more varied gameplay with easier to earn rewards? The anti-nightwave argument is incredibly weak in my opinion literally because it's against gameplay value. We even get stories and bosses out of it.

[Glisp]

Here's my opinion on the issue:

Nightwave is fine but some of the elite weeklies are just.... obnoxious... namely the Hydrolyst one. Unless you got some buddies to make a dedicated team, doing it is a pain in the butt. (unless you get really lucky with pubs or can solo... which rarely happens.)

And at least DE's battle pass is free. with many of the games, all the good battlepass stuff is locked behind a paywall. meanwhile the free versions are bloated with nothing but sprays, avatars, etc.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Glisp

[rikimaru6811]

Dear OP,

Nightwave has helped me getting 30+ Nitains at once and almost all Warframe helmets, whereas, I wasn't able to hold even 3+ before and frequently missed out on Helmet alerts due to me being busy in the lab during weekdays.

I didn't really need the other stuff like fancy mods or Umbral Forma before, so me getting them as I rank up by playing other missions is just cherries on top of an already nice cake, now that they even allow me to catch up on missed Nightwave acts. Ever since the introduction of Nightwave, I don't have to stress myself out anymore because I know I can buy whatever alert items I desire from Nora's store (mostly Nitain, Helmets and Kuva now).

This also expands to other standings like Syndicates and other daily stuff. Not being to max them all out everyday? No biggie. A bit of this, a bit of that during weekends, it all adds up, no loss whatsoever. I can even complete Nightwave acts and Syndicate missions at the same time if the combination is right.

Kudos to DigitalExtremes for the massive improvements over the old alert system.

[Steel_Rook]

26 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Exactly. Just like Anthem, at its core, Warframe is really fun, and has interesting lore. But, its all being slowly buried under all the worst parts of the genre. Honestly, I don't think DE is doing it out of greed, or spite, or anything sinister like that. It seems more like they simply see the popularity of these other games, and want to make Warframe that popular too. But they don't seem to realize that most of the popularity those games enjoy is more akin to stockholm syndrome, that actual love and enjoyment.

I don't think they're doing it out of greed or spite, either. Warframe's history of implementing some outright predatory monetisation systems only to HAVE to reverse them under public pressure (cash-only Catalysts, no cosmetic-only Prime Vault bundles, that one time they sold a Kubrow cosmetic lootbox), but I don't think avarice was ever the issue. Rather, it comes back to the "intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards" discussion. In my opinion, DE has consistently made the wrong call on this matter for years, and so initiated their own vicious circle. Warframe trains its player base to regard the game in purely transactional terms. It's a grind, none of us enjoy it, so "what's in it for me?" In other words, "Why should I play X once I have Y reward?" The answer of "because it's fun" never seems to enter into the calculation, and that's a direct result of DE prioritising extrinsic vs. intrinsic rewards.

DE seem to care about popularity metrics more than they care about actual popularity or player satisfaction. The goal seems to be to keep their daily/weekly/monthly concurrent player averages up. Get players to log in every day, and if not so then a few times a week, keep players from playing in long sessions, make the numbers look good. Every Live Service game will eventually burn out its players. A smart Live Service will let those players leave on good terms once they've had their fill, eager to return for the new major content release. A dumb Live Service will attempt to maintain a white-knuckle grip on every player, wringing every bit of playtime it can until players are so well past burnt out that they ragequit and never want to come back. The reason that both the forums and in-game is full of so many jaded veterans who seem to be completely unpleasable is exactly this: These are people who are burnt out and miserable, but still susceptible to the game's "sustainable rewards." So they keep playing even though they resent the experience, and it shows in their attitude.

Digital Extremes have built their business model on maintaining a constant high level of activity from every player, and I personally feel that's a mistake. Letting players lapse, letting players play less, letting players log in infrequently and so on is a GOOD thing. That way we can take breaks and come back without ever truly "leaving."

 

37 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

The simple fact that DE sells boosters of any sort is them admitting that the normal progression rate is too slow. Because there is monetary value in making it go faster. This is because, one thing both players and even the developers and publishers never acknowledge is that time is also a currency. And really, its the most valuable one of all. There is only so much time in the day, and your life, and you can never get it back. This is why the "pay or grind" model of monetization works so well. But, even though everyone calls the grinding choice the "free" one, it really isn't. Just because you haven't spent any of your cold hard cash on it, doesn't mean it didn't cost you anything.

This is true. When examined objectively, the entire F2P market isn't what it appears. F2P games are sold to us as free with the option of paying, when they're the exact opposite - they're paid games with the option of playing a free demo. You can get a lot of mileage out of playing the demo, sure, but the majority of the game is clearly designed for you to buy at least part of it. Sometimes things are straight-up paywalled, like Destiny's major expansions. Sometimes things are "grindwalled," in that they cost so much time to earn as to be unfeasible for most people with a life outside the game. In all cases, these games have a number of things that they really want you to buy. Warframe does this with Catalysts, Reactors, Forma and slots. Sure you COULD earn those. However, the massive discrepancy between the time cost of these items and their money cost makes it pretty clear that they're intended to be bought. A single Catalyst costs several levels of the finite Nightwave progression, or 20 Plat on the Market. A Forma costs grinding Void Relics and then a 23-hour build time, but I can get three for 35 Plat on the Market. I could build a Warframe Exilus slot out of two Forma, or I can buy one for 20 Plat on the Market straight-up. The intent here is clear.

When I say things like that, though, that's not necessarily a condemnation. F2P Live Services are the direct successor to old 90s and 2000s $15/month subscription MMOs. I used to play one of those and never really balked at the subscription fee because that was cheap relative to pretty much any other kind of entertainment. A trip to the movies would cost me the local equivalent of $10 just for that, so $15 for all my entertainment needs in a month? Sign me up. I think I've spent ~€600 on Warframe over the last three years, and I don't really feel bad about most of it. I'm not opposed to paying for my games. Quite the opposite - finally realising that F2P games are just paid games in disguise and treating them as such IS what finally allowed me to stay active in Warframe for extended periods of time. The grind for new stuff was really, REALLY burning me out. By contrast, buying the Corinth Prime and Titania Prime off Warframe.market made the game instantly more fun. See, "fun" doesn't come down just to what you do. It also comes down to what you can avoid doing. And if I can avoid grinding Void Relics, then I'm that much happier for it.

Most developers know that time is a currency just as valuable as money. Everything in a F2P MMO costs some of each. You can tell what developers want you to buy and what they want you to earn based on how those two currencies measure up against each other. I'm the sort of player who wouldn't mind plonking down for a monthly subscription with occasional DLCs. Now that I'm treating Warframe that way, the game's gotten a lot more fun.

[Thrymm]

5 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Nope, if you lose the umbra forma you lose it forever. In the intermission you get another one. So you end up with less and no way to catch up.

That isn't a nightwave issue.  That's an itemization issue.  There really isn't much excuse for anything in a massive, sprawling game like this to be available in only one place.  We don't have to lose game content to do the right thing with that.  We've got a couple of those.  Rivens are WAY too unobtanium outside of sorties, for example, and I'd love to see it elsewhere because I hate the modifiers--I'm literally leveling weapons in solo sorties at this point, it's not a difficulty thing, I just don't like them.

The umbra forma is a difficult spot.  There are so few that, if you want to kit out with them, you've got to use them very selectively.  This means that having a few regularly used melee and frames is more than you can currently use them on.  Putting one somewhere that it winds up not as useful as you'd like, or worse on a frame that is subsequently changed in a way you don't like, is very damaging due to the nature of their acquisition.  We have melee umbra mods too, and I'd be very reticent to put one on a melee weapon, even though you can easily make a build that won't fit everything with umbral mods, just because power creep dictates that you've doomed that limited supply umbra forma to obsolesence at some point.

They should be available elsewhere, and there's no reason in the world that nightwave has to go anywhere for that to happen.

 

5 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Truth be told if someone doesn't have the time to do nightwave he will probably never meet enemies where a umbra build is needed.

Nah, not at all.  Truth be told, NONE OF US will ever meet enemies where an umbra build is needed.  There isn't any content that necessitates it.  You'll also never need a particular high end weapon, or a Riven, or any other particular item in the game.  Frankly, I'm not even sure we need a catalyst, reactor, or forma.  We could all run around with thirty total mod points on everything we have and complete the actual content.  I'm not saying we should, or that it'd be a good idea(unless a person wants to, in that case, to each their own), I'm just saying that we can't point at what we need and not need and decide what content it should be obtainable from with that information because the game is so darn easy that we never really reach a point that we need particular gear or items to increase our power to handle the next step.

[(PSN)Delvayne]

I agree the battlepass trend is gaming cancer, but I actually like nightwave.

It adds lore and is free. If you dont like it, dont use it, easy.

[Mephane]

I say battlepasses are a scam. Like, it used to be either that you buy stuff (e.g. item skins) directly, or you buy a DLC that adds permanent content where you can earn new stuff. Battlepasses, however, are just a ticket to be allowed to participate in a time-limited event. Not permanent content, not a direct purchase of the items, just a ticket you have to buy to enter the FOMO-powered hamster wheel.

That said, Nightwave is okay insofar as it does not cost any money. But I definitely concur with the notion that it is a frustrating system if you ever want to or have to take a break, and it confounds the issue of all the many online games now pushing towards more "engagement" in the form of dailies, weeklies, and battlepass systems that all compete for the players' finite amount of time.