Please End Nightwaves

[Yagamilight123]

En 12/6/2020 a las 6:30, Ceadeus dijo:

This isn't necessarily a direct Warframe feedback, but I would like to say that battlepass culture is going to kill gaming if it continues to gain dominance.  I'm being put into a position where I have to actively abandon games that I can't justify putting the time into because of their battlepass systems, because so many games continue to adopt this toxic monetization system that I physically don't have enough time to divide between them all without burning out on them and negatively impacting my own physical and mental well-being, both from the stress of games now feeling like a job that need an allotted amount of time to be dedicated to them to even get what I already paid money for, as well as the disappointment of missing out on content if I simply don't have that time.

Games that would otherwise have earned a place in my library and even the occasional purchase had this content simply been made a permanent installment are now being deleted because they simply don't offer enough outside that battlepass to outweigh the previously mentioned negatives.  I have more free time than most and I still don't feel like I have the time to manage all of these, I can only imagine the extent of an unhealthy lifestyle that is forced upon people who have other responsibilities if they choose to try and juggle all these different games trying to force both a time requirement and limit into their pricetags.

It hasn't come to that for Warframe yet, as I still greatly enjoy the game even without Nightwave content and the fact that Nightwave content is free, however, the more of these time limited content methods games adopt, the less time players will have to divide between them.  I do believe that it was once stated previous Nightwave content would return in some form - though that may simply be referring to the few items we see during intermissions - but it would be nice to get some clearer elaboration on the intent and vision of Nightwave with these repercussions in mind.

--- Edit ---

To clarify, since I'm seeing a lot of similar replies:  This is not an attack on Warframe or DE or the way that DE has done Nightwave.  Nightwave is without a doubt probably one of the most respectable implementation's of a battlepass system to date.  This post is about players being forced to juggle several different games all at once that each have their own battlepass that demands your attention or risk losing content, you may have more than enough time to complete Nightwave or maybe even Nightwave + another game's battlepass, but with new and old games alike continuing to develop their own battlepasses, it means the number of games you have to allot time for is only going to grow.  Will you still be able to juggle them when it's 7 different games you need to play not even because you necessarily want to, but just because you need to keep up with the challenges to get the rewards you want and likely have already paid money for?

Dont play several games if you dont have time for them ?

[Ceadeus]

This is going to be the last post I'll bother to put here and I'm sure it will be the most controversial.

I've determined that many people simply don't have the foresight to see how things grow into these big problems.  People see something that doesn't immediately try to bite them and assume that means that its good and should stay, when the reality of it is that its nothing more than placation so that when it does bite you, you won't even think about it and may very well even support it.

I'll leave the people who don't understand why battlepasses are one of the most toxic trends in gaming that absolutely will kill gaming as a hobby with this final little problem to work out: You people say that it's not a big deal because there's plenty of time to do Nightwave or other battlepasses or whatever, or to simply not buy into them because they're not "required".  To that, I ask you, a year or two ago, how much content did you have to forcibly allot time for or lose it forever?  Maybe 1 event sigil every few months?  Or in the case of other games, how much content did you need to pay2play that also had its own time requirements or you again lose it forever?  Probably not a whole lot.  And yet, almost as if this is a growing problem, it becomes more and more normal for a game to release less content as base updates or even just as simple paid content, and instead the majority of their focus shifts to these methods to make you jump through hoops for less content at a higher price.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, it's a growing problem, and as long as people like you continue to buy into it, it will only continue to grow.  Maybe it's only $20 and a few hours a day now, but it will quickly reach a point where you're paying a full-game's price and need to devote the majority of your free time to it just to get mediocre at best rewards.  You can say you wouldn't bother to pay it, but I'm sure there was a time you wouldn't have paid $20 for limited chance at a mediocre gun skin either, yet that's the norm now.  Placation.  But please, keep fighting us trying to break the trend for your right to be exploited.

[RamonLLLL]

So basically you just said "I can predict bad things in NW other people can't".

The things, battle passes are paid every single season in other games, NW in WF is nothing more than weekly challenges to push players to play stuff normally that people wouldn't bother to do. The FOMO is there but the last rewards are mostly cosmetic, given to people who are willing to grind it. You can pursue those acts actively or you can also get your timing right and play those acts passively. Those items can even be traded and returns in long Intermissions when it doesn't happen with other games. NW is just an extra grind on top of other content WF has that is why it causes burnout for so many people. Also, people are actually buying plat and paying for tennogen skins already, so I don't know what you're getting at.

So unless DE gets even greedier and announces that Nightwave would be a paid feature (which I don't see it will likely happen without huge backlash), then NW is pretty much at the bottom of the list of complaints. Your post just boils down to "I don't want NW because it might be monetized", surprise surprise, it kinda is already.

 

[Teljaxx]

18 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Strongly disagree. If that's what Warframe was when it launched, it wouldn't be alive today. Probably wouldn't have survived its first year. Considering it was Digital Extremes' "Hail Mary" with the alternative being bankruptcy, that's almost a guarantee. For all the complaints I have towards the Live Service game model, I'm always going to take it over traditional "buy to play + DLC" games. While there's nothing wrong with those games in principle, I rarely get more entertainment out of them than 30-60 hours. I'm looking at almost 3000 hours in Warframe by this point, and I can honestly do more fairly easily. This is also why I don't subscribe to the Jim Sterling style of radical fundamentalism which paints all post-launch monetisation as "evil" regardless of context. I'm fine with paying for my Live Services. I'm fine paying a subscription, I'm fine additionally paying for new content, I'm SOMEWHAT fine paying for consumables depending on the specific implementation.

18 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Everything in video games is transient. Trying to pick a game and make it your "home" is always going to be a mistake. Every game dies, every game loses its relevance. The best you can do is play them while they're active, then be ready to find a new source of entertainment when they go away. A lot of people tie their own sense of self-worth to the entertainment they consume. It's why we have so many 7-year veterans talking about "slap in the face" all the time. Far as I'm concerned, that's not a healthy way to approach video games. And yeah, sure - ideally I'd like for developers to release their server-side software when they discontinue a game. Let players host their own private servers like what happened with City of Heroes. Hell, maybe license out the server software so that fan servers can make their own development changes.

You are contradicting yourself. First, you say Warframe is better as a "live service" so it can last forever. But, then you say games shouldn't last forever, and trying to make one do so is unhealthy.

I agree with the second point. If Warframe weren't a "live service", it wouldn't have to be "alive" today. The same way Doom or Mario doesn't have to be "alive" to be playable. They don't need to be constantly updated and added to to be playable. And if you have already thoroughly beaten them? That's when you move on to one of the other billion games out there. But, you can always come back later and do it again if you want.

18 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The issue with Live Services isn't that we have to keep paying for them and that's always bad. Again - I paid an MMO subscription all throughout the 2000s and never had a problem with it. It was worth the money. The issue is with specific implementation and mentality. Warframe has all the problems of a modern MMO with a bad business model. The game over-emphasises habit-forming mechanics with the aim of keeping players compulsively logging in when it doesn't need to. It over-emphasises wasting people's time with excessive grind with seemingly the sole goal of appearing to not paywall anything - even though they effectively do anyway. I was never going to earn a Korrudo, so I bought one from the Market. It wasn't paywalled, but it might as well been paywalled TO ME.

Warframe's recurring monetisation has issues, but "it has recurring monetisation" isn't one of them. Not as far as I'm concerned. I played video games when I had to go to a store and buy a boxed copy of a game which was never going to change. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I don't miss that time. The moment I found out how MMOs actually worked, I had no intention of going back. A game constantly maintained, updated and adapted is always going to appeal to me more than a game sipped, given a DLC or two and then abandoned for the sequel.

The recurring monetization is just one of the symptoms of the real problem. The real problem is the development model itself. As you said, "live service" games do require constant funding, to fuel their constant development and server usage. And that means they have to do all the things that make microtransactions possible. Like intentionally making a grind too slow, then selling you a way to make it faster. Or anything from this video I posted earlier. They also tend to create terrible working conditions for their creators, but that's another discussion.

This is a self inflicted problem. Games don't have to be made this way. Simply saying "they need the money" doesn't excuse it. They intentionally chose this development model, despite the downsides. This is why Dusk is one of my absolute favorite games to come out in the last few years. Its a really fun game, sure, but its mostly because of the developer's attitude. They didn't try to make it last forever, or make infinite money from it, they just made a fun game, and sold it. Really, the best parts of Dusk are all the things it didn't do, that so many other games do, and that's sad.

But, games with "recurrent user spending" of any sort literally cannot be as good as games without. There are far too many ways that they have to intentionally remove the fun so they can sell it back to you for that to be possible.

Plus, the ability to update a game whenever has encouraged the developers to release less functional products. Why make sure everything works before release, when you can just use your paying customers as alpha testers and fix it later? Just look at how DE updates Warframe. Especially now, when every update is only part 1/3. Remember how long we had to deal with the barely functional melee 3.0 part 1? It was almost a full year before we got part 2. And how long will it be before part 3 finally comes along? Sure, you may be able to play the game for thousands of hours, but how much of that time was spent on broken, unfinished content?

18 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Everything is a temporary investment. People always bring up Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 in these kinds of conversations, but these games are an aberration. A generation of players grew up with these games and revere them like children from the 80s revere Super Mario. What if I wanted to play Aliens vs. Predator 2, though? You figure there are a lot of multiplayer lobbies for that? What if I wanted to play Wages of Sin? I played the S#&$ out of that in the 90s, still have fond memories of it. Yeah, you can play the single-player components of those games, but especially for Wages of Sin... That's not actually good, or a meaningful selling point. City of Heroes was an exception, in that private servers exist for that game, and I could still play it to this day if I chose to. That didn't stop me from having to consider what to do with my time in 2012 when NCsoft shut that game down, however.

You missed my point here. Yes, the original popularity is gone, and the massive communities have moved on. You can't just open the server browser and find hundreds of fully populated servers to play on whenever you want anymore. But its still possible to play it to some degree. Other than the aforementioned single player components, you could get a group of friends together, or someone could set up a Discord server to organize a regular game night. You can't do that with a game like Hawken, or Exteel, because you simply can't play them at all anymore. All the important parts of the game were on external servers, and those are long gone. You can't even get past the login screen anymore.

Warframe will be the same, eventually. Even though it has an even more single player potential than any of these other games, most of it still runs on external servers. Nightwave, invasions, sorties, all the world state stuff like that is all external. And, most importantly, all the player and market data is too. You don't even have a save game on your own console, its on a server somewhere. So once those servers go away, the entire game goes away. All your progress, and all that stuff you bought vanishes.

And the fact that these are also the games that ask for the most money from their players makes it even worse. I have put more time into the UT series than any other game, even Warframe. Yet, even though I have bought multiple games, some multiple times, I have also spent significantly less money on it that Warframe. And I haven't even spent that much on Warframe compared to someone like you. Yet I can pretty much guarantee that I will still be playing UT long after Warframe is dead and gone.

Now, don't get me wrong, its not like I play nothing but UT all the time. Its the simple fact that I still have the choice to do so that's important. Even if I don't play it for years at a time, its still there if I want to go back. But with any of these other games, that choice was made for me. Someone else took away something I enjoy, and I can't do anything about it. This is just yet another thing that creates the FOMO that these games rely on to keep their players hooked. If you don't experience every single part of this game right now, you may never be able to ever again.

[Autongnosis]

Le 12/06/2020 à 15:45, kaotis a dit :

Sorry to inform you this game is free to play (and only version there is actually), if you buy something is because you want to

Yeah, no. 

This game can be played for free IF others pay for them and for you. And it's designed to push you to pay anyway. The fact that DE has done it mostly correctly instead of in a predatory way is points for them, but doesn't change the fundamentals. 

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

You are contradicting yourself. First, you say Warframe is better as a "live service" so it can last forever. But, then you say games shouldn't last forever, and trying to make one do so is unhealthy.

I don't recall claiming that Warframe being a Live Service would cause it to last "forever." Just more than a year, more than 60 hours' worth of play time. Nothing lasts forever, but Live Services last a hell of a lot longer than traditional one-and-done games. Ignoring the MMO zombies like World of Warcraft and EverQuest, 8 years is still a pretty long time for a video game to stay active. Payday 2 lasted 5, City of Heroes lasted 8, etc. And unlike those games, Warframe is still alive with no signs of slowing down - not any time soon, anyway. I'm not building my sense of self-identity based on it because I don't expect it to be here in another 20 years (assuming I live that long), but I do expect it to be here for at least a few more years.

 

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

I agree with the second point. If Warframe weren't a "live service", it wouldn't have to be "alive" today. The same way Doom or Mario doesn't have to be "alive" to be playable. They don't need to be constantly updated and added to to be playable. And if you have already thoroughly beaten them? That's when you move on to one of the other billion games out there. But, you can always come back later and do it again if you want.

Yeah, but is that "better," though? Clearly it is to you, from what you've said. It absolutely isn't for me. Yes, there was a time when I'd replay the same single-player game over and over again. Even with that, however, I rarely got more than 20-30 hours out of any of 'em. It wasn't until I discovered MMOs that I managed to stick with the same game long-term. Yes, I could go from game to game, shelling out $20 each (assuming I get them on discount), play them for a few days to a few weeks, then go look for new ones. Or I can pay $15 per month and play the same game for years. I wouldn't run the risk of dud sequels and shoddy releases, I wouldn't need to have a library full of abandoned, buggy games. Crucially, I wouldn't be playing horribly dated games. I've tried going back to games I remember fondly, like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. Ignoring the fact that I have trouble running that on modern hardware, it's just not as fun any more. Other games have done what it does better since, I've no reason to play it any more. Not even for Yuri Lowenthal.

And yes, I could move onto other games. There really aren't that many I'm interested in, however. Right now as we talk, there are maybe two games I could think of trying. I have Darksiders 3 sitting in my Steam Library untouched, and I could potentially get Doom Eternal since I'm told it's better than Doom 4, which I personally found pretty mediocre. That's about it. Maybe I can try Death Stranding if it's out for PC? But that's about it. I've really very little interest in bothering with new games unless there's something particularly unique about them. I'd try an XCOM 3 if it came out (and no, Chimera Squad doesn't count), I'd try a new Half-Life game if it came out for the non-VR mortals among us, but that's about it. I would much rather find a game I like and play that for a few years than constantly switch from game to game. Obviously, it's important to be ready to migrate as old games die and new games take their place, but I'd rather space that out if I have the chance. And I do have the chance, because Warframe is on its eight year and going strong.

 

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

The recurring monetization is just one of the symptoms of the real problem. The real problem is the development model itself. As you said, "live service" games do require constant funding, to fuel their constant development and server usage. And that means they have to do all the things that make microtransactions possible. Like intentionally making a grind too slow, then selling you a way to make it faster. Or anything from this video I posted earlier. They also tend to create terrible working conditions for their creators, but that's another discussion.

But, games with "recurrent user spending" of any sort literally cannot be as good as games without. There are far too many ways that they have to intentionally remove the fun so they can sell it back to you for that to be possible.

Strongly disagree there. I tend to find games with recurrent user spending to be vastly superior to those without. In the short term, sure - a standard AAA release will probably win out. The moment-to-moment experience will obviously be superior with a more limited product. Long-term, though? That same standard AAA release is one-and-done. I play it for a few days, I'm done with it, I move on to the next thing. This means spending more money on another $60 title, it means learning a whole bunch of new mechanics, and it means I'm probably not going to run into anything compelling. A Live Service might not offer as curated an experience, but it's going to offer a decent experience for years to come. Currently, I've spent enough money on Warframe to buy 10 games at full price, give or take. I've gotten a lot more entertainment value out of it than I would have out of ten separate games, I can tell you that much.

And the recurring monetisation is not a "problem" in and of itself. It's a problem only when handled poorly. Yes, Live Services deliberately degrade the free experience in order to sell it back to players at a cost. Speaking as someone who generally prefers to pay for his games (for this precise reason), I'm fine with it. As long as paying for my entertainment makes it actually entertaining, I'll buy that for a dollar. This is why I had to stop treating Warframe like a free game. It isn't - it's a free job. Paying for the game, however - even a token amount - transforms it all but entirely. Once I no longer had to worry about Forma, Catalysts, Reactors, etc., the game improved greatly. Once I started buying Primed pieces that I couldn't be arsed to grind for, the game improved greatly. Yes, it cost me more money but again - I'm willing to pay for my entertainment. If I'm happy with it, I'm willing to overpay for it, even. As of the string of Revised Updates, I'm generally happy with Warframe, its developers and the direction it's headed.

You're not, and that's fine. To each his own. However, understand that I've very little interest in the older style of making video games. I'm fine with it existing, but I'm unlikely to spend a lot of money on it.

 

4 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

You missed my point here. Yes, the original popularity is gone, and the massive communities have moved on. You can't just open the server browser and find hundreds of fully populated servers to play on whenever you want anymore. But its still possible to play it to some degree. Other than the aforementioned single player components, you could get a group of friends together, or someone could set up a Discord server to organize a regular game night. You can't do that with a game like Hawken, or Exteel, because you simply can't play them at all anymore. All the important parts of the game were on external servers, and those are long gone. You can't even get past the login screen anymore.

The only response I can give you here is a shrug of the shoulders. When it goes away, it goes away. I find myself another game to play. See, I used to feel that way about Payday 2. "Well, it's peer-to-peer. Even if Overkill goes under, I can still play it with friends." Then Overkill went under (literal bankruptsy) and updates stopped coming. Did I stick around and play the last available version with friends? No, not really. I played it for a bit, then we all moved on to other games. Because when the updates stopped, I brunt out on the game and lost interest. Even if I CAN play a Live Service after it's discontinued... I generally won't. I play these games for the "live" aspect of them - for the constant change and development. I was just about DONE with Warframe in 2019. The bugs, the crap design, the awful balance, etc. Now in 2020, we've seen plenty of evidence that DE aren't afraid to "break those bones" and give the game the changes it's needed since before I started playing it.

To me, the likes of UT are "dead games." Sure, they can still be played, but they will never improve. They'll never get major systems redesigns, never get new game modes, etc. And sure, maybe mod makers can do some of that, but to what extent? For how long? Every single Live Service I've ever played has been utterly dreadful when I picked it up. I've stuck with it, however, because it has consistently improved. Payday 2 threw away its ENTIRE RPG system and rebuilt it from scratch. Warframe itself has scrapped entire gameplay mechanics and replaced them wholesale. We're on our third iteration of melee, for instance. It didn't even have Parkour when it launched. If Warframe had remained in the state that it launched in, it would have been an abject failure. The game we have today is not the result of an initial release. It's the result of eight years of continued development, lessons learned and experiments performed - with mixed results.

The value of a Live Service is not what it IS. It's what it BECOMES. Tomorrow, next year, ten years down the line. You can't have that with one-and-done games. You can sometimes have it with sequels, sure, but the Call of Duty / Assassin's Creed / Battlefield games have shown me that iterative sequels have all the problems of Live Service games with very little of the benefits. If you enjoy scrounging for friends or strangers looking to play old games, then more power to you. You have the ability to do that and I can't really take that away from you. Understand, however, that I've no interest in that. I prefer Live Service video games, I like the general business model and I don't expect to agree that they should stop being made or stop being supported. The likes of Jim Sterling can keep saying "live services" in increasingly silly voices all they want, it's not going to change my opinion any more than I'm going to change yours.

[Kaotis]

hace 23 horas, Autongnosis dijo:

Yeah, no. 

This game can be played for free IF others pay for them and for you. And it's designed to push you to pay anyway. The fact that DE has done it mostly correctly instead of in a predatory way is points for them, but doesn't change the fundamentals. 

Free to play is the concept of downloading and hitting the play button without having to spend 1 cent. Edit1: And btw... nightwave with it's reward sistem makes it easier for this game to be played without spending a cent... Something the OP doesn't like apparently.

The monetization structure that pushes you to spend money in order for you to have a more convenient gameplay is something totally distinct.

Edited June 17, 2020 by kaotis

[Kaotis]

On 2020-06-16 at 5:47 AM, Ceadeus said:

This is going to be the last post I'll bother to put here and I'm sure it will be the most controversial.

You can't take criticism so ... duno why you didn't stop after first one

 

On 2020-06-16 at 5:47 AM, Ceadeus said:

I've determined that many people simply don't have the foresight to see how things grow into these big problems.  People see something that doesn't immediately try to bite them and assume that means that its good and should stay, when the reality of it is that its nothing more than placation so that when it does bite you, you won't even think about it and may very well even support it.

People(most not all) simply don't share your views on the world and you don't have the mental fortitude to listen to opinions that differ from your own.

On 2020-06-16 at 5:47 AM, Ceadeus said:

I'll leave the people who don't understand why battlepasses are one of the most toxic trends in gaming that absolutely will kill gaming as a hobby with this final little problem to work out: You people say that it's not a big deal because there's plenty of time to do Nightwave or other battlepasses or whatever, or to simply not buy into them because they're not "required".  To that, I ask you, a year or two ago, how much content did you have to forcibly allot time for or lose it forever?  Maybe 1 event sigil every few months?  Or in the case of other games, how much content did you need to pay2play that also had its own time requirements or you again lose it forever?  Probably not a whole lot.  And yet, almost as if this is a growing problem, it becomes more and more normal for a game to release less content as base updates or even just as simple paid content, and instead the majority of their focus shifts to these methods to make you jump through hoops for less content at a higher price.

How do you actualy have 3k+ hours in this game and ask this( did you buy your account or somthing)? Only thing that was exclusive EVER was the original excalibur prime and his weapons the rest will reapear 1 way or the other (not lost for ever).

I could call out all the subsciption based games if that will make you happy...

If you consider it a problem that's on you, people tend to have self control.

For the 9999999th time nightwave is not paid content and talking about other games that do have paid content is like talking about how whiplashing punishment is a growing problem in the world when the places that actualy issue this tipe of punishment are 2-3 countryes.

I stil don't belive you spend a cent in this game.

On 2020-06-16 at 5:47 AM, Ceadeus said:

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, it's a growing problem, and as long as people like you continue to buy into it, it will only continue to grow.  Maybe it's only $20 and a few hours a day now, but it will quickly reach a point where you're paying a full-game's price and need to devote the majority of your free time to it just to get mediocre at best rewards.  You can say you wouldn't bother to pay it, but I'm sure there was a time you wouldn't have paid $20 for limited chance at a mediocre gun skin either, yet that's the norm now.  Placation.  But please, keep fighting us trying to break the trend for your right to be exploited.

It's not a problem it's incentive to play other content of the game. You don't buy into it... it's a thing developers put in the game ... just like quests in RPG .... you don't have to do them ... 

Nah fam it's not 20$ it's free content. How you said in some posts back... people without skils and talent coz it takes a total of maybe 3-4 h to finish a week of nightwave. 

Warframe is free and nightwave is free.

You do realize that games are meant to be played in your free time no ? If you don't like the rewards no 1 forced you to get them....

If some one pays in Warframe it's because we want to suport DE or because we want a smother experience, either point is a valid reason to pay.

Only thing not posible to get is Excalibur prime and his weapons. And duno you but i usualy pay 60+ for my games if you want to play the flex wallet game.

I consider it disrespectfull for you to call the work of some one at DE mediocre , I'm pretty sure that person put more love and effort in that "mediocre gun skin" than you could ever put in your entier life into somthing.

Because we all know that breaking a trend will happen if you get online to type away. Maybe you can stop sistematic racism as well with that tactic.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 6 heures, kaotis a dit :

Free to play is the concept of downloading and hitting the play button without having to spend 1 cent. 

The monetization structure that pushes you to spend money in order for you to have a more convenient gameplay is something totally distinct.

Easy cop out is it? It's free if you ignore it it monetized. Jee. 

You are purposefully ignoring the core issue of the "f2p" label. If it were actually free, nobody would have to pay for it to be accessible. 

F2p games on the other hand absolutely require some people to pay for their existence. Ask DE if they'd have survived without the few hundred founder packs, or whales that buy prime accesses on a regular basis. 

The fact that you can download and play "for free" doesn't remove the need for payment, it just makes it optional to some, but for that to happen you need others to cover your quota as well. DE is a business, not a charity. 

It's pretty simple math actually, if DE needs X dollars a year to function and to make profit, the combined sum of expenses from its player base needs to exceed that threshold, regardless of the player to player distribution. Say they need about 100$ a year per player, there can be someone paying 100,000$ and 999 people not paying, but if you remove the one guy paying, nobody plays anything anymore. 

[Krenlik]

On 2020-06-12 at 5:30 AM, Ceadeus said:

This isn't necessarily a direct Warframe feedback, but I would like to say that battlepass culture is going to kill gaming if it continues to gain dominance.  I'm being put into a position where I have to actively abandon games that I can't justify putting the time into because of their battlepass systems, because so many games continue to adopt this toxic monetization system that I physically don't have enough time to divide between them all without burning out on them and negatively impacting my own physical and mental well-being, both from the stress of games now feeling like a job that need an allotted amount of time to be dedicated to them to even get what I already paid money for, as well as the disappointment of missing out on content if I simply don't have that time.

 

 

Except that removing Nightwave or not does absolutely nothing to your personal circumstances.  If you don't do nightwave because it doesn't exist, or you don't do Nightwave because you don't have the time/don't care to, it ends in the same place.  You didn't spend time on it, and you don't get any of the rewards from it.   And that's cool... you don't HAVE to do it.  It's not like they give you a weekly power debuff if you didn't get to level X the previous week.  It's 100% entirely optional.  (Well, except for Nitain, but you don't have to dedicate your life to Nightwave to get enough of that.)

Demanding removal because you don't want to do it is... well, kinda selfish, frankly.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Krenlik

[Lers]

27 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Easy cop out is it? It's free if you ignore it it monetized. Jee. 

You are purposefully ignoring the core issue of the "f2p" label. If it were actually free, nobody would have to pay for it to be accessible. 

F2p games on the other hand absolutely require some people to pay for their existence. Ask DE if they'd have survived without the few hundred founder packs, or whales that buy prime accesses on a regular basis. 

The fact that you can download and play "for free" doesn't remove the need for payment, it just makes it optional to some, but for that to happen you need others to cover your quota as well. DE is a business, not a charity. 

It's pretty simple math actually, if DE needs X dollars a year to function and to make profit, the combined sum of expenses from its player base needs to exceed that threshold, regardless of the player to player distribution. Say they need about 100$ a year per player, there can be someone paying 100,000$ and 999 people not paying, but if you remove the one guy paying, nobody plays anything anymore. 

I mean... yes, but what is your point? That is not an inherent issue with the free to play model. Its only a problem when companies monetize in a predatory, manipulative and coercive way. Just because most free to play games turn out to be horrible cash-grabs aimed at whales, doesn't make the model inherently bad. The existence of games like Warframe and Path of Exile prove the models validity. The current state of the free to play, and live service (or really the whole AAA gaming) market in my opinion is more of a reflection on the greater state of the gaming industry and its over-corporatization.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 22 minutes, Lers a dit :

[Snip] 

I agree with you, I was correcting the other guy 😛 I admit it's kind of an off topic in here, it just happened. 

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

You have a point on a future where ripple may have to juggle many battle passes. But, I respectfully disagree.

As you have pointed out Nightwave is an excellent implementation, and that's why I don't think it will be a problem.

If you do all the weekly tasks plus one or two dailies a week...well let's just say next week I'll be done with Nightwave, and we're not even to the third investigation.

Nightwave is designed in such a way that you work through the battlepass without trying. Once DE builds.up enough trust with us that we realize we don't have to pound it out and can sail casually on in things will be better.

[Lers]

17 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

I agree with you, I was correcting the other guy 😛 I admit it's kind of an off topic in here, it just happened. 

Right, jumped the gun there, apologies! I guess the tone of your post seemed critical to the model both generally and in regards to Warframe, but I was reading too much into it.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Lers

[z3us32610]

Repeated misuse of the word "forced" on these forums is an all too common occurrence

[AtillaLifeson]

On 2020-06-12 at 11:38 AM, kevoisvevo said:

Can you give a tl;dr version? I don't really care about your life history.

Watch your language.

[MagPrime]

22 minutes ago, masqueradr said:

Watch your language.

What are they supposed to watch it do?

Also, no profanity nor insults there.  

[kevoisvevo]

1 hour ago, masqueradr said:

Watch your language.

imagine being more fragile than the thinnest layer of ice. it's a miracle that you are still alive lol. 

[Glisp]

This thread should be locked. Its just dumb. From what I've been reading its people trying to say the OP is wrong and the OP giving weak stances on why he thinks nightwave should be removed.  It's like an endless loop of "I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG. NUH UH!"