Silence About Lich 2.0 is Frightening and Kinda Gave The İdea of DE May Abandon The Lich Content

[redkunaz]

I don't even care about the rewards i just want more lich stuff, i want to actual feel like the lich hates me.

 

I wouldnt mind a system where lich has like 3 stages and every time we kill it on railjack he becomes less (human) and more (robot) and more powerfull

 

Shadow of mordor exists... you can take so many ideas from there.

[Orakan]

1 hour ago, redkunaz said:

I don't even care about the rewards i just want more lich stuff, i want to actual feel like the lich hates me.

 

I wouldnt mind a system where lich has like 3 stages and every time we kill it on railjack he becomes less (human) and more (robot) and more powerfull

 

Shadow of mordor exists... you can take so many ideas from there.

The real problem is devs stoped talking about the lich system completely. We are even geting less and less dev steams and all of the senior devs are acting like lich system is completely ok and fun to play. As I have said in the begining silence about the lich system feels like DE already abondened that content.

[DrivaMain]

9 minutes ago, Orakan said:

The real problem is devs stoped talking about the lich system completely. We are even geting less and less dev steams and all of the senior devs are acting like lich system is completely ok and fun to play. As I have said in the begining silence about the lich system feels like DE already abondened that content.

I don’t think they abandoned it completely. They likely just stopped talking about it to prevent the system getting unnecessary hype. Railjack 1.0 and Lich 1.0 release was a victim of over expectations from players and DE markets them as huge system changes that will unite content islands together by the end of 2019. We all know how that went..

It seems they learned their lesson. Right now DE’s method of 2020 update is show something that is extremely close to release. We may see Lich Railjack assasination by the end of the year tho. I doubt Corpus Nemesis will made it this year considering September’s update is going to be HoD part 2 and DE has Railjack expansions on the pipeline. 

[Orakan]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I don’t think they abandoned it completely. They likely just stopped talking about it to prevent the system getting unnecessary hype. Railjack 1.0 and Lich 1.0 release was a victim of over expectations from players and DE markets them as huge system changes that will unite content islands together by the end of 2019. We all know how that went..

It seems they learned their lesson. Right now DE’s method of 2020 update is show something that is extremely close to release. We may see Lich Railjack assasination by the end of the year tho. I doubt Corpus Nemesis will made it this year considering September’s update is going to be HoD part 2 and DE has Railjack expansions on the pipeline. 

Very logical but at the same time Steve Sinclair has talked about they are working on Railjack command intrinsic system. To my opinion all we need is a sentence like that . But I doubted that we will see any new Lich or Railjack news in this year cause we still haven't even get our hand on the New War main quest. Rebecca Ford said on reddit they will going to release a quest after tennocon . All we need is just an explation like that

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2020-09-14 at 6:44 AM, redkunaz said:

My issue isn't having corpus i couldn't care less. the grinner have better captains, tyl reggor , corpus have annoying nef anyo.

My issue is the lack of game modes , bosses and a lich systems , having more corpus enemies wont solve this issue.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there's plenty to improve with liches. I've played Shadow of War. I get it. It absolutely needs a 2.0.

I just also recognize that if they're in the process of adding Corpus enemies, missions, etc... they'll have no excuse not to update other facets of the game mode. And I do want to see the game mode expand, as the current kuva liches and weapons are simply stale at this point. It's time to change things up.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Whoa 4 pages.. no reading that.

In direct reply to the Title tho:

?Yeah? why should that be a surprise? its pretty much the norm for all content. DE abandons it for the next update hype.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

On 2020-09-14 at 7:27 AM, Orakan said:

First of all player counts keep droping since the they have released lich system . Secondly after releasing alpha state railjack (we will get to that topic later) and than releasing the biggest dissapointment that I saw in seven years which has been named scralet spear  player counts already drops significantly. Normally warframe nearly 100k active players on big contents' releases bug because of releasing alpha state updates or watered down updates it active player counts drops nearly 35k in those time , even now after 2 weeks past since the deimos release it only has 47k active players now steam. So bringing unfinished or poorly desinged content for just to sake of bringing content drop player counts significatly actually cause company starting to lose its players trust on the product. 

That's an interesting theory, but it's one I don't particularly subscribe to. Player counts always decline after a major update. Not just in warframe, but every online game. The longer you go without a major update, the further they decline. See: The wait with TWW. Trying to say player counts are declining faster than before needs more data than you've provided.

 

 

 

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With that so called revisited update you assumed bringing fixes to the several very longstanding issues is another point that you are wrong . Armor scaling was only an issue when the begining of the game before the era damage 2.0 . Many players can go do endurance runs cause we can remove armor completely (and shield too) Auras are completely remove these kind of defenses and even corrosive can remove the armor completely .

Armor scaling was only an issue in damage 1.0, huh? That's certainly a... Unique outlook, given how one of the most longstanding criciticisms of the game from the playerbase was armor scaling. I mean, if it wasn't a problem, why did players petition DE for literal years to change it? If it wasn't a problem, why did DE ultimately change it?

Probably because "Yes, you can strip armor if you have 4x CP" wasn't a solution, since it basically enforced a CP meta. Every other aura was immensely subpar, and CP only did its job well if you had three other tenno with you with the same aura. For someone complaining about how we "only" need viral and slash now, it seems very strange that you're looking back to the bad old days when all you needed was corrosive and slash, especially since back then you really did need corrosive and slash whereas now you can actually kill effectively with the other elements because of the change to armor scaling.

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Besides on that so called revisited fix update they have completely broke the status now you only need viral and slash for killing everything none status thing in the game , because of that there is no balance the in the build variety right now thanks players like you who doesn't have any idea that revisited update poorly desinged and brought in to the game. The whole point of that update is bringing variety to  the damage types that players are using but because of virals strengt nobody is using any other thing now (if the target is not status immune)

Everyone has always used viral and slash because the viral proc has always been amazing (Shave enemy health in half? On top of a 50-75% damage boost against most enemies that aren't infested or robots? Yes plz - the only reason people didn't use it more was because most guns can't have corrosive and viral at once) and so has the slash proc. If you aren't aware of this, I'm really wondering what you're doing commenting on the Warframe meta and its history. Slash procs in particular, I'm just boggling at how you're talking about how they're all you need now, when they've always been all you need. Slash has been the meta since damage 2.0. Arguably damage 1.0 as well when it was called serrated blade. Slash has been the best of the IPS damage types since its inception by far.

Seriously, I think your characterization of damage 3.0 as a new viral/slash meta is wrong in every way it's possible to be wrong. This isn't a new thing, viral and slash have been meta picks since damage 2.0. Slash at all times, and viral was the far and away meta choice for squads with 4x CP because of those damage modifiers and the great proc.

With the reduction of armor scaling, corrosive is no longer the absolute necessary meta it used to be, which means viral now takes its slot as top dog, this is true. However, the other elements were also made better, such that you can get away with using them without totally screwing yourself over. Take heat - with its damage buff and the new armor reduction mechanic, there's an actual reason to build for heat. If you've ever seen a mausolon alt fire obliterate a level 90 condor on the vallis, you know what I'm talking about. Even impact has some use now, since you can chain-stagger enemies more easily. Sure viral's, what, 350% damage buff with stacking procs is amazing, but I'll take one option being amazing and the others merely being pretty good over what we had before with one option being mandatory and the others being basically a case of throwing wet spitballs on the enemy unless you have four identical auras. And given how happy the players were at the armor scaling change, I feel pretty confident that my opinion on this isn't in the minority.

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And on that so called revisited update put the bigest mistake on balance and remove the self damage while all experienced players are giving feedback about not the removal of the mechanic , just put a limitation on so no body will one shot themselves. (Digital Extereme has worked on Unreal Tournament(UT) and in UT there is a grenade launcher which can do self damage but do decent amount of aoe damage. So do you realy think DE don't know how to balance that mechanic and remove it completely ? Thrust me these guys do know how to make shooter games) And what happened in the end ? They removed the self damage completely and put a annoying stagger mechanic even to the operators and nerfed the aoe damage of all explosive weapons to the ground (which is the whole purpose of these guns , making aoe damge ) just because some whiny youtubers cried about self damage cause they can't aim or they cound't think not to use it while on low hp with none defansive warframes. Thanks to that now area damage weapons can't do their soul purpose which is doing AREA DAMAGE. Also on that update they force players to farm more arcanes just the sake of variety and than put that broken tasteless bandaid event scarlet spear to keep veterans happy but now new players have to farm more than double amount of arcanes while the eidolons are still giving the same amount and because of the elitism in the eidolon hunting new or mid tier players can not even manage to farm those arcanes efficiently and by the way developers have said they will increase the drops of arcanes but nothing have happened now even in steel path they are giving the same amount which is completely ridicilious.

Wow, now you're complaining about the removal of self-damage as a big balance mistake? Really? Removing self damage was another thing the playerbase asked for a lot, and it was quite nice. Prior to its removal, basically nobody used explosives except for niche things like chroma self damage. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a tonkor in the wild after it got self-damage after losing its fun grenade jump mechanic? 

I'm not even sure what you're talking about with removing effectiveness of AOE damage either, my AOE weapons seem just as effective as ever. Perhaps that's because I put on firestorm? And some of the newer AOE weapons (akarius and staltha's alt fire especially) have tons of effectiveness. So I'm really not sure what you're on about here.

 

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So your as I pointed in here your whole argument in here "Now it's finally for the first time in warframe's lifespan in a decent place" because of the armor scale is completely wrong . Yes there have been some little issues has been fixed but that is it .

Sorry bro, but I can't take your conclusions on this seriously. You didn't know enough about the damage 2.0 meta to know that slash procs were near the top.

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And yes tennocon 2018/2019 are completely false advertisiment and false adversitiment is a crime in Canada . You can check it if you want. Besides same thing about false advertisement happened to the many games in recent years and they have face the consquenses . For example Anthem , Division 1, Watchdog 1 or even better No Men's Sky. All these games caused lost value on stocks of their companies because of false advertisement and even on No Men's Sky's case people were nearly opening mass class action lawsuits to the compnay but at the end they got away with it . As you can see in these examples false advertisement is causing trust issues with player base and can cost money to the companies. So whole trying defend against false advertisement has no good for everyone thrust me.

I don't agree that it's false advertisement. To my mind DE delivered most of what they promised. Considering how nobody's taken them to court over false advertisement yet and won, I'm pretty confident that they didn't break the law. Perhaps you could try explaining how they lied instead of just ranting about completely false advertisements and legal liability?

 

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And you are totally being funny when you considered sharkwing as a content

I said it was a use for archwings, just like how I said gravimags provide a use for archguns. I think sharkwing was more of a miss than a hit, but it's a clear case of DE not abandoning archwing entirely. Not that we needed that case considering the other things they did to archwing, but I included it for completeness' sake.

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I am happy that they have at least put on railjack even in railjack that is only a transportation tool , there is no point for using archwing as a fighter ship cause railjack can clean the whole mission in less than 3 minutes.  So whole point of your archwing get content is also invalid

On release the meta for railjack was to park the thing in an asteroid and set out in archwings. While the balance changes have shaken this up somewhat and players have ferreted out effective metas with void hole, tether, etc, launching players in archwings is still a highly effective and more importantly, fun means of clearing AW content for players who want to do that. Especially for people who just got their railjack and haven't farmed up the mods needed to outfit it.

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But lets get back to the railjack again . Void storms or any other random events (basicly the whole point of implementation of squad link is about that ) has needed in railjack cause while gameplay is realy good there is not much we can do in missions other than exterminate and yes all of the missions are basicly exterminate and after 2 years of development creating missions compare to creating game mechanics is the easiest part. First time I have saw the ship killer platform I thought that will be an epic thing and becuase of visual and sound desing it felt like a real threat but whole station barely do some damage to the shields and even noraml sabotage missions in the game is way better ship sabotage experience compare to the ship killer platform .

Yes, railjack needs more content. Railjack will also be getting more content. Yes, more mission types beyond exterminate/assassinate/sabotage would be good. [i]However[/i], this does not mean that space weather would be fun the fiftieth time you encounter it. That's my point. Again, how much fun do you really have with sortie mission modifiers today? Because that's what space weather would likely look like.  "Reality is inverting and growing teeth!" sounds amazingly awesome now. But think about how it could be implemented and then think about what it would be like in a year or two.

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People like you who cound't understand game mechanics or consider armor scaling as hardness is keeping the situation even more dire cause because these kind of point of view they though railjack is in a decent state and they don't need keep their promises.

Armor scaling isn't hardness, it's crap unfun game design. The tools to completely ignore armor were available since CP was released, that doesn't change the fact that said tools were a bandaid over the fact that armor scaling was inherently crap. It reduced the effectiveness of every build - not the comparative effectiveness ("viral's best, but you can get by with others") but armor scaling effectively crippled every single build that wasn't built entirely around removing armor. The meta was armor strip/armor ignore or go home. Now it's viral/slash or kill more slowly, and that is unquestionably an improvement.

What we have now is an immense improvement. Absolutely immense. Yes, not every element is equally useful in all circumstances; this is fine, there will always be a meta. However, every element is *viable* now because it's not getting its damage reduced to nothing by massive armor scaling. You say you don't need anything but viral and slash now? Arguable, but assuming that's true, it's still a massive improvement compared to what we had before because suddenly those other elements aren't getting reduced to 1% damage due to ridiculous armor scaling now.

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People are even conparing the loading screens of warframe and destiny (which is flying with ships) and you still think epic looking event like bringing railjack to the open world maps than passes the unique atmosphere of that planet with diffrent visual aspect won't affect the game

What are you talking about? Being able to fly your railjack in an open world while blasting corpus with ship guns would be amazingly cool and would definitely affect the game. However, DE also never promised we could do that. Literally the only indication of railjacks in open world content we got was what amounts to a cutscene where ordis picks up the player from the vallis and takes them to space immediately. If you took DE to court for false advertisement with this as your proof, you would get laughed out of the court room.

So what I'm asking is... Would a five second cutscene/loading screen of your railjack blasting off into space really change anything? Really? Because that's what DE "promised" us in that railjack trailer.

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If you realy thinking all of those "broken promises" are bad game mechanics you realy are delusional mate or you realy are trying to be a troll.

I'm thinking that a lot of those broken promises would turn out to be a lot less cool in practice than they sound, and this is why we got them either in watered down states (ie squadlink) or removed entirely (ie space weather). I explained this. 

 

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We realy try to give feedback because we loved to play warframe and DE rightfully deserved our trust but with each move like Lich system, scarlet spear, or visually and mechanicly decent but alpha state releases like Railjack and Hearth of Deimos (which mech system still filled with many game breaking bugs and coming of hotfixes keep getting slower) or railjack is removing that trust bit by bit.

You guys have no idea what an alpha state even looks like. Alpha is "placeholders everywhere, game mechanics may or may not be hooked up, balance doesn't exist, bugs galore, and not little ones either, we're talking major crashes and gamebreakers."

You could argue that railjack and Deimos were beta releases with at least a little validity since beta is usually the time when you fix bugs, fill in content, and polish, but claiming what we got was alpha or even pre-alpha? No, that's hyperbolic in the extreme and it undermines all your criticism.

Imagine for a second that you're DE. You see someone ranting about how railjack is pre-alpha gameplay. You're an experienced software developer who saw and worked on the actual pre-alpha railjack gameplay, and you know that the two are basically worlds different. Are you going to give this guy's criticism any credence at all, when it sounds like he doesn't understand anything about software design and looks like he's just ranting without any actual critique you can use to improve your product? I doubt it. At most DE might read your criticism and think "okay... More content. Gotcha." [i]But[/i] the problem there is that "more content" isn't necessarily a good idea either. The content needs to be good. Otherwise we might get a repeat of lich 1.0. So be very careful what you wish for, boyo.

[Orakan]

Found another bug with half of its head missing lich while holding an arrow is completely wrong.

On 2020-09-17 at 12:45 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

Oh, don't get me wrong, there's plenty to improve with liches. I've played Shadow of War. I get it. It absolutely needs a 2.0.

I just also recognize that if they're in the process of adding Corpus enemies, missions, etc... they'll have no excuse not to update other facets of the game mode. And I do want to see the game mode expand, as the current kuva liches and weapons are simply stale at this point. It's time to change things up.

We get some news about Devs working on corpus railjack on latest devstream so maybe in recent times we will get news about 2.0 lich system or corpus version and probably with corpus version we will see a complete overhaul in lich system. At least this is my hope on the subject

[(XBOX)DarknessZeref]

On 2020-09-14 at 9:41 AM, Orakan said:

The real problem is devs stoped talking about the lich system completely.

My problem is the lack of clarity surrounding the system. I have SO. MANY. QUESTIONS. 

Does having more converted lichs = higher chance of lichs spawning?
What are the deadliest combo of lich power/weapon?
Average time of lich survival?
How are MR 5's dealing with this nonsense?
Is converting Kuva Lichs a new META? Having a lich spawn in every mission because you have 20 converted would be nice to know.
Why TF do I lose all the forma invested to change element? >_>

They're being intentionally shady about it. Probably gonna say something at the 1year mark, but that's devilish for the vast majority that can't handle a level 5 lich. It's absolutely asinine that you can have 10 maxed weapons and 4 maxed Warframes and have a Rank 5 radiation lich terrorizing you. 

[DCaedus]

At this point I think we all know this is how RJ and liches will be, at least for a bunch of years.
Seeing how they have a bunch of updates planned ahead, they can't stop to finish RJ or Liches.

[Orakan]

On 2020-09-26 at 9:32 PM, D_Caedus said:

At this point I think we all know this is how RJ and liches will be, at least for a bunch of years.
Seeing how they have a bunch of updates planned ahead, they can't stop to finish RJ or Liches.

Actually on latest devstreams , devs talked about they are working on railjack corpus expansion and we already know they are working command district . But devs are completely silence about the lich content . I hope we will get some news about the complete rework of the lich system. I mean it will be even better and cheaper for them creating fun to play lich system with more lore cause farming every ephemera , weapon and maxing weapons to the their top bonus damage is already a long progress but problem is liches nearly don't have any lore , they have very very very limited dialogue options and they are not fun to play nor giving a feeling about fighting against a nemesis cause we are mostly farming regular enemies with blue auras( thralls) 

All I am hoping we will get some news and devs will consider our feedbacks on how to make this content better and fun to play content with a decent repeatablity

[DCaedus]

6 hours ago, Orakan said:

Actually on latest devstreams , devs talked about they are working on railjack corpus expansion and we already know they are working command district . But devs are completely silence about the lich content . I hope we will get some news about the complete rework of the lich system. I mean it will be even better and cheaper for them creating fun to play lich system with more lore cause farming every ephemera , weapon and maxing weapons to the their top bonus damage is already a long progress but problem is liches nearly don't have any lore , they have very very very limited dialogue options and they are not fun to play nor giving a feeling about fighting against a nemesis cause we are mostly farming regular enemies with blue auras( thralls) 

All I am hoping we will get some news and devs will consider our feedbacks on how to make this content better and fun to play content with a decent repeatablity

Well, they took about 3 years to deliver The Sacrifice and stasis changes, and many other stuff so

[Orakan]

As long as content will be good as sacrifice it is ok for me , besides like I have said it would be less time consuming production for them to create a better lich content compare to desinging a completely new content

[MobyTheDuck]

Honestly, everyone expected them to forget about Liches right after the mandatory "reduce annoyances" patch.

I mean, look at every "big" thing that got added, then abandoned to focus on the next hype update:

Focus (skills and lenses are still terrible), Raids (erased from the game due how often they broke) ,Eidolons (broken, time consuming, time gates), Void (Its just there), Railjack (the biggest isolated content island in the game), Plains' bounties (mostly trash rewards, bad standing gain), Vallis' third Orb (pretty much canceled), Conclave/Lunaro (dead and broken), Ropalolyst fight (some say its more broken than raids). Even lore got abandoned since a good part of it happened in time limited events.

Probably a few others I forgot about, but with them now focused on (very slowly) fixing Deimos and due the pandemic, I think it will take a few years before one of these gets revisited, and even then I dont expect them to truly fix Deimos (I have a feeling that stuff like the mech mod drop rates and the tag/fish/minerals to token exchange rate wont be touched).

I would like to be proven wrong though. I'm still looking for that Pets 2.0 update and hopefully a Sentinel 2.0 update too. Maybe a Frame 2.0 update (please I just want passive radar/vacuum).

[Steel_Rook]

On 2020-09-29 at 11:47 PM, Orakan said:

Actually on latest devstreams , devs talked about they are working on railjack corpus expansion and we already know they are working command district . But devs are completely silence about the lich content . I hope we will get some news about the complete rework of the lich system.

DE always talk about how they're "working on" whatever is being discussed. They're working on Liches, they're working on Railjack, they're working on those Pet Stances they mentioned, etc., and none of it actually happens. Actually, consider the opposite. Do we know of anything they've confirmed they are NOT working on? In recent years, has a subject come up where Steve or someone else said "No, we're not actually working on this, we have no plans to do this?" DE talk like politicians on their Dev Streams. Everything's a possibility, everything's being worked on, everything's being explored, whatever wild pie-in-the-sky idea we might have is "a good idea, we'll look into it." The reason I no longer trust what DE say on Dev Streams is because they never seem to talk straight to us.

Obviously, I would be upset if they told me "No, we're not working on Railjack. That system bombed so we've moved onto other updates. We've no plans to update it currently." In fact, I'd be furious. However, I'm furious NOW, anyway, because it's obvious to me that this is what ended up happening... Except I ALSO feel like I've been lied to. I haven't been, clearly, but DE's attempts to placate people by talking about how they're TOTALLY working on Railjack when they clearly aren't is the worst of both worlds. If there are bad news, give me the bad news. I might not like it, but at least I'm going to trust what comes out of your mouths. I'm always going to trust developers who talk straight to me and tell me things I don't want to hear before I experience them first hand over developers who try to sweet-talk me. Facts are stubborn things. When things don't get updated, I'd rather you tell me you aren't updating them then tell me you are and leave me to find out you actually weren't for myself.

I bring up City of Heroes a lot on these forums, and one of the crucial reasons for this is developer Cryptic Studios' community management integrity. When we asked for things they couldn't or wouldn't do, they told us no. "No, we don't have the resources to make that. Sorry." When we speculated on whether they're secretly working on things they weren't telling us about, they told us no. "No, the rumours are false. We are not working on that, please don't expect it." Yes, it did make for some depressing news every now and again, but it also meant that we trusted them on their word. Thus, when we were told something was being worked on, it was coming soon and we should be excited about it, we actually WERE excited about it because we knew that was going to happen. Be straight with your players even when you're delivering bad news and your players will trust you when you deliver good news.

 

Also, there's this: "I hope we will get some news about the complete rework of the lich system." Yeah, me too, but stop and consider how sad that hope is. Liches are a fairly new system. Yes, it's been nearly a year in terms of time, but they've had next to no changes since. Yet here we are, already talking about a complete rework. In fact, people talked about a complete rework of Liches they day they launched. People talked about a complete rework of Railjack the day it launched. Releasing systems which are so overhyped, under-delivered and clearly rushed that they're going to need major redesigns ostensibly immediately after release is disheartening to say the least. It's bad development practice, to be sure - it's the realm of pre-alpha Early Access games, but that's not why. It's disheartening because DE don't go back to fix their old systems. Thus, when they release a system in a sorry state, one can be certain that it won't be fixed, improved or redesigned for years.