Why players are starting to check out

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Here's the short answer.  "Thousands of registered losers."  A quote from the DE team, meant to be users.

 

Here's what I'm trying to say, because DE is still acting like things are fine.  My friends all quit this game.  The people I interacted with have an average days since last login in excess of 100.  The point is that things are not fine.  If you're DE, how do you respond?

 

Let's go blow by blow.  You change content to a large yearly release, generating huge drought.  You respond with anger at your partners for the constant stream of "warframe drama" brought about because there's been nothing to show off for months.

You then respond to flagging engagement by installing greater grind walls.  2.01% for a 20 minute grind, that sounds good.  5% and requiring 21 drops, fantastic.  Players are frustrated by this, and the less loyal leave.

Now you're at the core.  The people who will continue to play, because they've spent money.  You deliver to them bugs, false promises, and issues.  I'm calling out Railjack and Old Blood here, given their drama.  Bad financial years happen, and the core player base starts to check out.  You still get spikes with new content, but each spike is less and less.

Now it's time for reckoning.  Why aren't you doing as well as before.  Everything is pretty much just trucking along, but the financials are in ruins.  Disgusted players leave without saying anything.  You've already stopped listening to the design council, so the only feedback left is twitter and your forums.  Twitter has more visibility, so you make some bad calls and cite tweets.  Ouch.  Bad decision.

 

My goal here is to pass along the feedback I know is accurate.  Why I know that players download the game, play for 10 hours, and uninstall.  If you think that's fine, then please watch as this game dies.  

Let me cut you off here.  "Somebody always complains that the game is dying."  Yes, but the financials generally disagreed, now they don't.  There's no new console to release on, with a new player base.  There's no irrational explanation about haters.  There's just people not engaging.  That's the death of a game like this.  It's important to understand that, and that 40% of players being lost in the middle of global lockdowns is not "just regular players coming in and out."  Other games are getting huge player count increases, and warframe is shedding them.  DE needs to understand why from our perspective.  You're welcome to disagree, but when the next new system requires a 20 hour grind to get something I expect that you never complain.  It is free to play after all.

 

 

Yeah, not buying that baloney.

Misogyny in gaming is well documented. I've already seen multiple derogatory comments towards Reb and others, so sometimes they can be losers. 

Also, a 20 hour grind is absolutely nothing lol. The 20 hours isn't supposed to be done in 1 day....

[master_of_destiny]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Here ya go, sir: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics

I'm sure the world would be a better place if we could just take 1 set of data and call it day to fix large scale problems. Unfortunately, it takes a bit more than that.

You're not the first person on the forums to grab the same steam chart people have been using for who knows how long with the intention of saying "See? The games dying!" Or something similar. 

It's a pretty large, complicated and nuanced gaming world out there. 

Despite the rampant bias and negativity on the forums, I've been told by some veteran voices in game and on the forums that the game is in a pretty good spot since the times they played 4 or 5 years ago even. Especially for new players. Their words, not mine. 

And before you try the classic, ever so popular "white knight" ad hominem....I am fully aware of the reasons i do not like the game just as much as I like the game.

DE is clearly listening as they've already made changes to pets, just as people have asked. 

I believe they will continue to read our feedback and plan accordingly. 

I do not think it's very accurate or objective to look at a game that has been around for 7 years and say "The steam chart isn't showing a massive 40% jump in players, so something must be wrong!" 

It's common in the gaming world for people to "come and go" as they please, especially when new titles come out and the tendency of casual players to jump ship with no intention of even having major long term goals for certain games. This is where the term "bandwagon" comes from. 

Either way, I hope DE can fully please you one day and cause a massive 40% spike in users, as that seems completely realistic (/s).

 

You don't get get your own argument.  Quoting a wiki, and claiming misuse of statistics is the go-to for people who cannot make an argument.

 

Let's look at those facts again, since you can't be bothered.  I'll skip over the white knight, because you're really strawmanning this argument the same way most people do.

 

I'm claiming that the game is getting excessively grindy to extend play time.  That is coming from a desire to increase player counts, without actually putting out new content.  Does the conclusion follow?  Yes.  Content release, player surge, player count decays as the grind is completed until the next content patch.  Pretty basic stuff.  Now let's actually look at the trend you're suggesting is misusing statistics.  More than 30 data points (March 2013 to July 2020 monthly).  This is a large data set to work with, according to AIAG policies for statistical usage.  

Small initial numbers, with consistent player counts.  Numbers are constant until we get the the start of the content that is big, and made sure we only had annual releases.  At this point the game has upticks on content release, and decays thereafter.  The overall trend though is upward.  There's a huge uptick in October 2017....why?  Well, that's the marketing push and PoE's release.  Slow decay until June....which is Plague Star.  Everything is still moving generally upward.  Now we've got substantial decay until Fortuna rears up...and it's a single month increase.  March of 2019 is the next uptick with Disruption, then July with Dog Days.  Decay again, until November, where we get the Old Blood.  The problem here is the decay in 2019 vastly outstripped the increases from peaks, meaning significantly less players retained.  Our next event is Railjack (take flight).  Following up with Scarlet Spear, the only positive in player count for 2020.

 

So let's discuss the statistics here.  The graph is a sawtooth, based upon content patches.  The problem is that if this were a stable situation it'd be a sawtooth where content patches bleed off only the additional players, then new content brings them back.  What we actually see is a decreasing average player count as time goes on, with the lows actually being more than 40% lower than the peak from almost three years ago.  This implies that the bleed off is not a stable system, but one in decay.

 

 

Now, why care?  First off, I don't care if you are a white knight or not.  I care that a game I like is making stupid decisions and killing itself.  Believe it or not, I'm critical because I want it to succeed.  I believe that doing that will require us to tell DE why they are failing.  They don't understand it obviously.  Why, insta-kill liches were a thing that took a monumental amount of negative feedback  to get changed, and doing so looked to physically hurt the person who did it.  As such, players need to help DE understand what we will bear.

If you're willing to take 7.8% drop chances, fine.  EA always needs someone to get involved with their "surprise mechanics."  I want DE to release a product, and I want to desire to pay them.  I did with a few prime access packs, but won't today.  They could offer a 20 USD package with all the prime frames, slots, reactors, and exilus adapters and I wouldn't give them my money.  They need to know how to earn it, and this is how I can let them know.  It's not about defending them, it's about telling them what people will pay for.

[Kontrollo]

Spoiler

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let's review my memory, and find where we differ in our understanding.

 

Conclave was introduced as a PvP mode that DE was working on.  They said it was largely going to be a work in progress, and that updates were coming.  This meant that most frames would not be accessible, most weapons would not be accessible, and there would be virtually no mods.  

 

Fast forward some time.  DE noted that they'd rebalanced things, and they would be allowing most frames to be entered.  They noted that a lot of powers would be changed in conclave, and that this was all for balance.  Fine, it meant the selection of weapons would still be low, but at least we'd be able to deal.

 

Fast forward more, and they started ranking people based upon their loadout points.  More points meant more power, but you also had to deal with stronger enemies.  This allowed them to add most of the weapons in the game, but kept most of the mods out (save some utility mods).  This is where the meta for the game finally developed, and has functionally stayed.

 

Now this is beyond my time, but records indicate the next evolution was to include the conclave and Teshin.  The mode also got a bunch of mods balanced specifically to it, but they were all functionally utility mods.  These are why there was a cooperative and conclave loadout (previously the mods available were so few that you could spend no time and be viable), and where the hard limits existed between the two.  A few of these mods proved quite interesting, so along with the introduction of the shadow stalker and sentients came the enemies dropping these formerly conclave exclusive mods.  The mods themselves were not corrupted in the traditional sense, they simply added utility.  Some, like Soft Hands, didn't even come with a negative.  On top of these mods for weapons came conclave specific augments.

 

It has been more than five years, and conclave is not experiencing any revitalization.  Heck, the closest thing to any love that we've seen is that universal medallions aren't being allowed to boost up syndicate standing.  This all feeds back nicely into the statement that PvP is dead in warframe for most players, and cannot save the game with content that is always going to be relevant because players themselves create it.

I appreciate that you are focused on things like Gun Glide and Agile Aim.  The problem is that you stop your understanding there, and have not included more recent statements.  Conclave mods are being shuffled into the regular system, and that kills any remaining reason to do conclave save the few cosmetics locked in it.  It's fair then to suggest that conclave is the next Raids.  A game mode that had potential, and has people loving it, but is likely to get the axe given its limited total participation counts.

 

 

 

---------------------------new discussion------------------------------------

Regarding Dark Sectors....I don't think that their death is coincidental.  

 

You list it like the two were somehow related, but conclave came about much later.  Conclave wasn't a 1.0, 2.0 release.  It was a slow iteration and addition of extra elements.  You want the real sauce here, the entire game is peer-to-peer except for the conclave and rewards calls.  DE didn't do that with the dark sectors, but had to do it with conclave because otherwise the system couldn't work.  

What is most important is that once conclave was viable enough to not be complete jank, dark sectors disappeared.  No official reason, just "we are focusing on other aspects of the game and cannot dedicate the time to supporting dark sector conflicts."  Armistice kicks off in 2016, and four years later we've not even gotten the effort put forward to remove the research from the game.  It's just locked off.  Coincidentally, the new PvP of conclave is supported.  Make of that what you will.

 

I cannot speak to the motivations of DE.  I can suggest that they have basically killed any PvP future, and have made no mentions of it bothering them in the slightest.  I have seen them triple down on open worlds, and after almost two years we haven't gotten the third orb mother.  We have been promised the Duviri Paradox, Heart of Deimos, Corpus railjack, the command intrinsic path, and modular archwing to name just a few things.  I see nothing that says PvP, so I have to think DE is telling us not to expect it.  If I were them I'd definitely say that after 3/3 attempts failing.  To be clear, that's Dark Sectors, Conclave, and Lunaro.  

 

Yeah no, I feel like you're just making it up on the go.

Conclave 1.0 was the one with the PvE loadouts limited by points (Conclave rating, e.g. see C** on Infected Clip). That was in 2013 already. Conclave 2.0, introduced in spring 2015, started with a very small number of weapons and Warframes and was meant to be balanced all around. E.g. Prime weapons usually had faster fire rate and got lower total damage (but not DPS) to compensate. It started with separate loadouts but only utility PvE mods. At its core, it's what we still have to this day.

Although they practically stopped rebalancing new things in 2018 (some weapons here and there get in, some introduced by mistake and stay, some mess up balance and eventually get removed, and some Prime Warframes/weapons made it in while others, like Ember and Vauban, got removed), there are still people who play it. But less so after The Old Blood and following updates, which introduced some serious balance issues due to PvE changes (Conclave is dependent on PvE stats, but not the other way around).

Now imagine not getting proper updates/bugfixes in PvE for months or years. The game would be much more dead than Conclave is these days (you can still play Conclave matches every day).

The Dark Sector/Solar Rail Conflicts armistice happened before Conclave 2.0.

There have been Dedicated Servers for Conclave on PC since 2016.

 

Regarding Open Worlds, here's how I see it: the first one brought in a ton of new players, so they wanted to repeat that. Second one was a big success, too, in attracting players, but also showed that they were basically repeating the mission formula.

 

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE has acknowledged this, and stated that the rest of the conclave mods would be added as regular ones.  None of this is open to interpretation, it's what they said was going to happen.  If you disagree, explain Purging Slash and Singularity (now purchasable with glassmaker credits, and listing as conclave only source). 

As I said above: People (and that includes PvP players) have asked for some Conclave mods to be made more widely available and DE obliged. Same happened a long time ago with e.g. Mesa's Waltz, which was originally a Conclave 2.0 mod, exclusively.

The newly enabled "dual mods" are still enabled and can be unlocked through Conclave gameplay. Nothing has changed in that regard. That they can also be unlocked through PvE gameplay is just consistent on the part of DE, it happened before.

Now that is not open to interpretation, that's just facts.

[master_of_destiny]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Misogyny in gaming is well documented. I've already seen multiple derogatory comments towards Reb and others, so sometimes they can be losers. 

Also, a 20 hour grind is absolutely nothing lol. The 20 hours isn't supposed to be done in 1 day....

Do you even think before you type?

 

I ask because you're making some pretty baseless accusations.  The phrase is from an interview she gave, and she flubbed a line.  No big deal.  The point was she was bragging about how many people play warframe.

 

20 hours is not a trivial amount of time.  If you don't value your time, that's just peachy.  For someone working at 8 USD per hour that's 160 dollars, with maybe 100 take-home.  I cannot believe that you don't see the value proposition of buying a prime access, buying the thing you wanted with the extra platinum, and still not having to spend 20 hours grinding through something.  The funnier bit is 2 hours a day for more than 200 days for 50% of players to get a full arcane.  If you only charged $1 per hour that would mean that statistically most people would have a value of $400 associated with the three rare arcanes.  Ouch.

The counter argument that the game is fun in itself would be valid...until you realize it's based on things being fun.  Killing the thousandth charger isn't fun, the dopamine rush is in getting the drop.  If the fun is in right clicking for the thousandth time then there are a variety of clicker games I'd recommend.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

41 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

...

Dude why are you even responding? was it Not Obvious from my Dismissive 2 line comment that I really don't care why you're bugging out?

[master_of_destiny]

9 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yeah no, I feel like you're just making it up on the go.

Conclave 1.0 was the one with the PvE loadouts limited by points (Conclave rating, e.g. see C** on Infected Clip). That was in 2013 already. Conclave 2.0, introduced in spring 2015, started with a very small number of weapons and Warframes and was meant to be balanced all around. E.g. Prime weapons usually had faster fire rate and got lower total damage (but not DPS) to compensate. It started with separate loadouts but only utility PvE mods. At its core, it's what we still have to this day.

Although they practically stopped rebalancing new things in 2018 (some weapons here and there get in, some introduced by mistake and stay, some mess up balance and eventually get removed, and some Prime Warframes/weapons made it in while others, like Ember and Vauban, got removed), there are still people who play it. But less so after The Old Blood and following updates, which introduced some serious balance issues due to PvE changes (Conclave is dependent on PvE stats, but not the other way around).

Now imagine not getting proper updates/bugfixes in PvE for months or years. The game would be much more dead than Conclave is these days (you can still play Conclave matches every day).

The Dark Sector/Solar Rail Conflicts armistice happened before Conclave 2.0.

There have been Dedicated Servers for Conclave on PC since 2016.

 

Regarding Open Worlds, here's how I see it: the first one brought in a ton of new players, so they wanted to repeat that. Second one was a big success, too, in attracting players, but also showed that they were basically repeating the mission formula.

 

As I said above: People (and that includes PvP players) have asked for some Conclave mods to be made more widely available and DE obliged. Same happened a long time ago with e.g. Mesa's Waltz, which was originally a Conclave 2.0 mod, exclusively.

The newly enabled "dual mods" are still enabled and can be unlocked through Conclave gameplay. Nothing has changed in that regard. That they can also be unlocked through PvE gameplay is just consistent on the part of DE, it happened before.

Now that is not open to interpretation, that's just facts.

I'll give you the conclave.  I may be remember it incorrectly as stages, and the "2.0" versus "1.0" is baffling.  My memory is playing with it as they iterated, and never having called out a formal revision.  I also cannot seem to identify any documentation to this effect, and would appreciate it if you could actually point me toward some confirming evidence so I can properly educate myself.

 

 

Regarding the mods, you've cited one which eventually was converted to a syndicate based mod.  While interesting, it's not really the point I'm going for.  

My point was that there was a distinct wall between the two.  Yes, players argued heavily to get that one to cross over.  Based upon the time table it was not something DE did willingly, and moreover until recently most conclave mods were not scheduled to cross over.  My point is that all conclave mods are now set to be transitioned.  Not one, not a few, but they've said all reasonable mods will be transitioned.  This means no reasonable mods will be able to be conclave exclusive, and thus there's no reason to engage with conclave for something which may provide to player with power.

Regarding the consistency of DE....we'll have to agree to disagree.  The Hema and Sibear can't have a cost reduction, but Railjack can.  The conclave mods are exclusive to conclave, until they decide that they aren't.  Having vacuum on all sentinels is impossible, and then it needs to be nerfed into the ground, until it's a quality of life improvement.  I could keep going on, but the short of it is that DE is consistently capable of defending what they said this week.  That's good and bad.  I'm just hoping that they follow through on things that they've promised, because Railjack at Tennocon 2018 and release in 2019 were miles apart.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Do you even think before you type?

 

I ask because you're making some pretty baseless accusations.  The phrase is from an interview she gave, and she flubbed a line.  No big deal.  The point was she was bragging about how many people play warframe.

 

20 hours is not a trivial amount of time.  If you don't value your time, that's just peachy.  For someone working at 8 USD per hour that's 160 dollars, with maybe 100 take-home.  I cannot believe that you don't see the value proposition of buying a prime access, buying the thing you wanted with the extra platinum, and still not having to spend 20 hours grinding through something.  The funnier bit is 2 hours a day for more than 200 days for 50% of players to get a full arcane.  If you only charged $1 per hour that would mean that statistically most people would have a value of $400 associated with the three rare arcanes.  Ouch.

The counter argument that the game is fun in itself would be valid...until you realize it's based on things being fun.  Killing the thousandth charger isn't fun, the dopamine rush is in getting the drop.  If the fun is in right clicking for the thousandth time then there are a variety of clicker games I'd recommend.

I know I understand. The game has dropped in players. People are waiting for a massive storyline update and theres too much grind.

I used to do multiple hour boss fights, so personally the grind in this game is nothing to me. 

There are many niche games out there and a few large titles that are fun and casual and require very little nuance or difficulty. 

I like warframe because it's not something any 12 year old can pick up and easily excel at. They have made many changes to appease casual players and after a second playthrough. Some things were easy but some tweaks are definitely in order. 

Flawed mods should be deleted from the game and we should be able to Gild amps at Rank 2 to make eidolons easier for people. 

 

[master_of_destiny]

1 minute ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Dude why are you even responding? was it Not Obvious from my Dismissive 2 line comment that I really don't care why you're bugging out?

You want to be an edge lord....fine.  Why did you respond if all you want to do is say "I disagree, but cannot actually back up the argument with anything but the feels."

 

Right, you just want to make a point.  Fine.  It's almost like that sort of ignorance is why people might devalue the forums.  Why DE is entirely happy as thinking it's a pit of hate to be ignored.  It's a self fulfilling prophecy where people responding with useless edge makes dismissing everything said acceptable.

 

You know, you stop going to a restaurant if you see the cook spit in a burger.  You don't really factor in that the customer is being a gigantic jerk, that they've returned the burger twice already for being too well done when they ordered a medium, and ordered the works but flipped out because they didn't think pickles were included with all the toppings.  I make this diversion, because throwing around misogyny devalues any claims of it.  It also gives the impression that DE doesn't care.  I won't argue that, but I will argue that sometimes they don't know what good decisions are.  It's especially true when it comes to their flagging player counts and resolutions to extend engagement with grind.

 

 

Let me put it in one sentence, because that might be better.  If you don't want to talk, then don't type a response.

[master_of_destiny]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I know I understand. The game has dropped in players. People are waiting for a massive storyline update and theres too much grind.

I used to do multiple hour boss fights, so personally the grind in this game is nothing to me. 

There are many niche games out there and a few large titles that are fun and casual and require very little nuance or difficulty. 

I like warframe because it's not something any 12 year old can pick up and easily excel at. They have made many changes to appease casual players and after a second playthrough. Some things were easy but some tweaks are definitely in order. 

Flawed mods should be deleted from the game and we should be able to Gild amps at Rank 2 to make eidolons easier for people. 

 

You seem to despise casuals.  I don't support it, but it's a reasonable stance.

 

If this is the case, why play warframe?  It's not a game that rewards you for skill.  It doesn't have scaling rewards.  It doesn't even really offer any challenge beyond understanding the boss patterns.  There are plenty of skilled games out there.

 

Likewise, 20 hour boss fight are to be commended.  If you do a 2 hour mission in this game it locks trade permissions because the reward request to the server flags you as be being suspicious.  

 

I just don't understand.  As an aside, I support most of the content locking.  Getting your first amp sucks, but it's eventually rewarding.  Focus is a mess, but after a few months you've got a way to generate energy or boost affinity (amongst other things).  The catch is these things are stupid simple to unlock.  You don't need skill, just time.  That definitely doesn't support warframe ever moving towards skill or time investment rewarding.

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, master_of_destiny said:

I'll give you the conclave.  I may be remember it incorrectly as stages, and the "2.0" versus "1.0" is baffling.  My memory is playing with it as they iterated, and never having called out a formal revision.  I also cannot seem to identify any documentation to this effect, and would appreciate it if you could actually point me toward some confirming evidence so I can properly educate myself.

 

 

Regarding the mods, you've cited one which eventually was converted to a syndicate based mod.  While interesting, it's not really the point I'm going for.  

My point was that there was a distinct wall between the two.  Yes, players argued heavily to get that one to cross over.  Based upon the time table it was not something DE did willingly, and moreover until recently most conclave mods were not scheduled to cross over.  My point is that all conclave mods are now set to be transitioned.  Not one, not a few, but they've said all reasonable mods will be transitioned.  This means no reasonable mods will be able to be conclave exclusive, and thus there's no reason to engage with conclave for something which may provide to player with power.

Regarding the consistency of DE....we'll have to agree to disagree.  The Hema and Sibear can't have a cost reduction, but Railjack can.  The conclave mods are exclusive to conclave, until they decide that they aren't.  Having vacuum on all sentinels is impossible, and then it needs to be nerfed into the ground, until it's a quality of life improvement.  I could keep going on, but the short of it is that DE is consistently capable of defending what they said this week.  That's good and bad.  I'm just hoping that they follow through on things that they've promised, because Railjack at Tennocon 2018 and release in 2019 were miles apart.

Mesa's Waltz is only one example, there are others. See e.g. this Sentient's drop table (note the reload mods). Also, you can go through the history of the wiki pages to confirm that, but Mesa's Waltz is just the most clear and obvious one.

Other Conclave 2.0 things are documented on the wiki, and they also have the patch notes there. It started with Update 16 (although they're not consistently listing Conclave changes in patch notes anymore, e.g. Inaros Prime was just removed again without a reason given, although that Warframe had acceptable stats, nothing broken). And here's an early official thread about Conclave 2.0.

 

I'm talking about consistency with regards to PvP mods which were made into "dual mods". It's documented, you just have to know where to look. And note that they were not made into PvE exclusive mods, either. They're just shared now. Also that "distinct wall" wasn't there from the start, it just evolved that way because Conclave 2.0 was meant to be much more balanced than what was possible with PvE mods. And DE enabled it willingly, I mean why not? It wasn't a point of contention.

Now having a way to unlock those mods in PvE is both sensible and generous on DE's part.

Generous, because these mods are still tradeable, so they're technically not exclusively available through PvP. Sensible, because people who never want to touch PvP have been very vocal about that, and so we have the unwritten rule of "put nothing exclusively behind PvP that is relevant for PvE progression" (something I can agree with, by the way). That's also the reason why the Conclave is the only Syndicate without weapons (there were feedback threads where that was discussed, too).

And I think it's a good thing to tear down that "wall" a little bit, make it less of an island.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

33 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You seem to despise casuals.  I don't support it, but it's a reasonable stance.

 

If this is the case, why play warframe?  It's not a game that rewards you for skill.  It doesn't have scaling rewards.  It doesn't even really offer any challenge beyond understanding the boss patterns.  There are plenty of skilled games out there.

 

Likewise, 20 hour boss fight are to be commended.  If you do a 2 hour mission in this game it locks trade permissions because the reward request to the server flags you as be being suspicious.  

 

I just don't understand.  As an aside, I support most of the content locking.  Getting your first amp sucks, but it's eventually rewarding.  Focus is a mess, but after a few months you've got a way to generate energy or boost affinity (amongst other things).  The catch is these things are stupid simple to unlock.  You don't need skill, just time.  That definitely doesn't support warframe ever moving towards skill or time investment rewarding.

I play the game for its futuristic sci fi aesthetic and amazing freedom of movement. I'm pretty over the medieval aesthetic and I'm not a fan of basic first person shooters despite how modern they've become. 

I used to be more "hardcore" but not so much anymore. It's just something I used to do. 

With warframe i can farm while texting, or I can get really immersive in endurance runs to stress test a new loadout. 

For example I consider it a challenge when people say Nyx is trash. So that makes me want to get behind the steering wheel of Nyx and see for myself in higher levels if I can handle her. 

My journey throughout the game is still acquiring stuff i dont have: certain builds or weapons or rivens. The fun for me is trying everything that's here. 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You want to be an edge lord....fine. 

This is Par for the forums.

Took you long enough to figure it out.

 

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Mesa's Waltz is only one example, there are others. See e.g. this Sentient's drop table (note the reload mods). Also, you can go through the history of the wiki pages to confirm that, but Mesa's Waltz is just the most clear and obvious one.

Other Conclave 2.0 things are documented on the wiki, and they also have the patch notes there. It started with Update 16 (although they're not consistently listing Conclave changes in patch notes anymore, e.g. Inaros Prime was just removed again without a reason given, although that Warframe had acceptable stats, nothing broken). And here's an early official thread about Conclave 2.0.

 

I'm talking about consistency with regards to PvP mods which were made into "dual mods". It's documented, you just have to know where to look. And note that they were not made into PvE exclusive mods, either. They're just shared now. Also that "distinct wall" wasn't there from the start, it just evolved that way because Conclave 2.0 was meant to be much more balanced than what was possible with PvE mods. And DE enabled it willingly, I mean why not? It wasn't a point of contention.

Now having a way to unlock those mods in PvE is both sensible and generous on DE's part.

Generous, because these mods are still tradeable, so they're technically not exclusively available through PvP. Sensible, because people who never want to touch PvP have been very vocal about that, and so we have the unwritten rule of "put nothing exclusively behind PvP that is relevant for PvE progression" (something I can agree with, by the way). That's also the reason why the Conclave is the only Syndicate without weapons (there were feedback threads where that was discussed, too).

And I think it's a good thing to tear down that "wall" a little bit, make it less of an island.

Much obliged.  Knowing where to look is appreciated.

 

Circling back to our start, PvP is losing what little value was ever placed on it (by DE).  It's unlikely to ever help DE out of the hole, and I agree that the positive step is to distribute its rewards to PvE so that the associated work in making said items is not lost with the game mode.

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I play the game for its futuristic sci fi aesthetic and amazing freedom of movement. I'm pretty over the medieval aesthetic and I'm not a fan of basic first person shooters despite how modern they've become. 

I used to be more "hardcore" but not so much anymore. It's just something I used to do. 

With warframe i can farm while texting, or I can get really immersive in endurance runs to stress test a new loadout. 

For example I consider it a challenge when people say Nyx is trash. So that makes me want to get behind the steering wheel of Nyx and see for myself in higher levels if I can handle her. 

My journey throughout the game is still acquiring stuff i dont have: certain builds or weapons or rivens. The fun for me is trying everything that's here. 

I...appreciate that you want to change things up.  I can appreciate that the MMO scene is a bit heavy handed with the magical age of chivalry theme.

 

I also very much appreciate the challenge side.  I can see that angle, even if the impetus is people ignorant to the usage case of certain items.

 

Where I think there's a problem is building a game around RNG almost exclusively.

For a moment, let's be competing games to Warframe.  Some of them time gate events, but drop tokens so you can choose what rewards you want.  Others don't time gate content, and expect you to deal with the constant grind.  Still others allow for trade or deconstruction of unwanted items to make rare materials.  All of these are viable ways for players to get a non-desired reward, but still appreciate it. 

The only thing in this game which can actually be setup like that is Rivens.  Get four bad item rolls, capture the eidolon, and you can turn the 4 rivens into a single one that is another RNG roll.  You could combine four rivens and quite easily receive a riven for the same weapon you transmuted.  I speak from experience here.  Beyond rivens there's syndicate standing, but it's definitely not relevant once you've done the content.  Right now syndicates off an RNG rellic pack, with RNG rewards, and little else of constant value.

I cannot think of another game that literally has no means to reward players consistently.  My closest example is the engrams from Destiny, but even then you are assured certain drops for completion of tasks.  Warframe is 100% RNG rolls for rewards, and thus can be quite painful is you get a long streak of bad drops.  My personal call here is 50 eidolon captures with no platinum arcane drops.  

Might you have experienced a complete RNG loot drop system elsewhere?  If so, how did the developers not burn people out with garbage drop rates but keep engagement?  I'd joke about EA, but I think the point has been  made.  Numerically, DE built their house almost entirely on RNG.  As such, they die if that RNG is not rewarding enough.  They also die if it's too rewarding, and people don't spend money.  It's my contention that 20 minute runs for a 2.01% reward chance firmly stands in that realm of garbage RNG burning players out.  I don't have a fix for it yet, if there is only RNG to look forward to.  If you have seen one please enlighten me, and maybe we can give DE a solution better than simply increasing the chances.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2020-08-14 at 6:43 PM, master_of_destiny said:

 

1. Drop chances are garbage, and RNG based artificial engagement is not good.
2. Open Worlds are a failure for the warframe model.
3. Bug fixing is a joke, and the amount of progress in the last five years is not sufficient when compared to a AAA game being put out in less time.

 

I had a nap so I feel chatty now

Regarding Points 2 and 3.

Yup, Open Worlds implementation sucks at the moment

a huge open world with potential for all kinds of activities either bounties, random incursions, or fishing/mining, etc. and yet they still try to Shoehorn in this ancient '4-players-only tiny squad based on 1 host' networking model.

It really doesn't fit. Its why we get complaints about host migrations screwing people out of their open world activity cause 1 guy wanted to leave. Causes so many bugs and glitches when the Host is on one side of the map and you on the other trying to do something completely different. The there's mechanically questionable stuff like having Alert Level be shared for all players on the map....

When I hear Open World. I expect Dynamic Matchmaking, able to go into the world alone (or with a premade squad) and as you wander around doing whatever activity you want; you have the ability to see other independent players doing their own activities. Run into a random guy at the fishing hole and say hi, share some bait. or maybe a Public Event (Destiny ref) shows up and brings a bunch of players to the same spot, and they decide to squad up after. And most importantly, anyone can leave at anytime without screwing over anyone else's activity (no host/everyone hosts his own progress).

 

Point 3, lack of bug fixing, ties into Why we can't have point 2.

DE isn't a AAA studio. 200 employees is Tiny. Their history is mostly contractor work for bigger studios. They got lucky with Warframe and they're in over their head now, the game is growing faster than them.

And my impression is the majority of their people are artists and 'content' creators, not actual Programmers. They're still milking the 12 year old Dark Sector game engine because they don't have enough programmer staff to build anything better or improve it or fix bugs.

And its probably going to stay that way. So long as they current strategy of "release a bunch of reskins, shiny yet irrelevant new gear, script in some new stories and cutscenes. repeat in a few months to get an influx of temporary players" continues to pay off.

 

[DoomFruit]

On 2020-08-15 at 4:57 AM, master_of_destiny said:

Minecraft is a game that is single player, cooperative, or PvP.  You can generate worlds at random, and the players choose their interaction.  It is a game that has far outlasted warframe, and continues to be strong to this day.  There are plenty of people that don't engage with PvP.  Why does it continue to work?  Ironically, RNG and the ability to do anything.

I'd also use mods and the ability to choose versions as part of Minecraft's longevity. There's a gigantic spread of mods which people have made for Minecraft - some add magic, some add tech, there are more animals, more involved village and town systems, more dimensions to explore, graphical improvements, changes to the movement system, all kinds of things.

If I don't like a part of Minecraft, I can go in there and change it myself. If I think something's missing, I can roll up my sleeves and add it.

And very importantly, this also extends to being able to choose which version of Minecraft you use. The official launcher gives you the option to create instances with different versions. If you don't like the new combat mechanics (sword swing delay, dual wielding) added in 1.8, you can just pick 1.7.10 or earlier. If you don't like the hunger mechanic, you can go back to beta 1.7 (which was 2012) or even further. If there are mods which simply don't exist on later versions of the game (RotaryCraft is one example, it never went past 1.7.10 but is still being actively developed even though it's on a 5 year old version of Minecraft; Thaumcraft for 1.7.10 is also much deeper and has far more addons), you can again stick with the older version and its mods.

I can't do that here. If the game changes for the worse (for instance, as far as I'm concerned, melee was best in the original incarnation with no stances or melee mode, but made a very sharp turn for the worse since melee 2.whatever in the beginning of 2019), then we're stuck with it. If I hate the new UI then not only do I lack the ability to go and mod my own, cleaner, more functional UI; but I don't even have the option of just reverting the game back to before it was broken.

 

This aside, the game more and more has been getting in my way. It is actively interfering with my attempts to play it.

Autoexposure gives me headaches. I turned it off right when it was first introduced because of that and now it's been forced on us. Playing the game is now explicitly painful.

The syndicate UI got changed a while back requiring more clicks and much more mouse movement to do exactly the same thing as before for zero benefit.

There's now a different end of mission screen which lacks information which we had before and insists on lingering around even when the ship menu has finally loaded. Less information, more confusion (is it loaded yet), more stuff getting in the way.

Railjack is a huge cacophony of both active and passive game interference (the former being crap like hold click to craft, the ship minimap moving around, pointless animations to hookshot and rope down forge consoles and the inexplicable pit traps in the forge area; the latter being that there is no indication as to where the important things are and that their interaction zones are an unmarked thing hovering in the open where it's easy to walk past it).

Those are just 3 examples that I can think of right now. In fact, one of the recent changes is causing actual physical harm to some players, see here:

 

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Circling back to our start, PvP is losing what little value was ever placed on it (by DE).  It's unlikely to ever help DE out of the hole, and I agree that the positive step is to distribute its rewards to PvE so that the associated work in making said items is not lost with the game mode.

Also not what I came here to discuss, but that's again just your opinion.

Analogy: They certainly tried the Archwing-Space-Battle thing again and again. Save for all the bugs, Railjack was enjoyable, so maybe it's the iteration that's finally going to work out for them.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Much obliged.  Knowing where to look is appreciated.

 

Circling back to our start, PvP is losing what little value was ever placed on it (by DE).  It's unlikely to ever help DE out of the hole, and I agree that the positive step is to distribute its rewards to PvE so that the associated work in making said items is not lost with the game mode.

 

I...appreciate that you want to change things up.  I can appreciate that the MMO scene is a bit heavy handed with the magical age of chivalry theme.

 

I also very much appreciate the challenge side.  I can see that angle, even if the impetus is people ignorant to the usage case of certain items.

 

Where I think there's a problem is building a game around RNG almost exclusively.

For a moment, let's be competing games to Warframe.  Some of them time gate events, but drop tokens so you can choose what rewards you want.  Others don't time gate content, and expect you to deal with the constant grind.  Still others allow for trade or deconstruction of unwanted items to make rare materials.  All of these are viable ways for players to get a non-desired reward, but still appreciate it. 

The only thing in this game which can actually be setup like that is Rivens.  Get four bad item rolls, capture the eidolon, and you can turn the 4 rivens into a single one that is another RNG roll.  You could combine four rivens and quite easily receive a riven for the same weapon you transmuted.  I speak from experience here.  Beyond rivens there's syndicate standing, but it's definitely not relevant once you've done the content.  Right now syndicates off an RNG rellic pack, with RNG rewards, and little else of constant value.

I cannot think of another game that literally has no means to reward players consistently.  My closest example is the engrams from Destiny, but even then you are assured certain drops for completion of tasks.  Warframe is 100% RNG rolls for rewards, and thus can be quite painful is you get a long streak of bad drops.  My personal call here is 50 eidolon captures with no platinum arcane drops.  

Might you have experienced a complete RNG loot drop system elsewhere?  If so, how did the developers not burn people out with garbage drop rates but keep engagement?  I'd joke about EA, but I think the point has been  made.  Numerically, DE built their house almost entirely on RNG.  As such, they die if that RNG is not rewarding enough.  They also die if it's too rewarding, and people don't spend money.  It's my contention that 20 minute runs for a 2.01% reward chance firmly stands in that realm of garbage RNG burning players out.  I don't have a fix for it yet, if there is only RNG to look forward to.  If you have seen one please enlighten me, and maybe we can give DE a solution better than simply increasing the chances.

Yea I agree that basically any game is "pick your poison". I've been lucky with RNG but I probably play more. I get 100 ducat parts all the time lol. Yea, Gauss took me a few days to farm. I got 3 systems in a row once, but like I said, it wasn't an issue for me as I was enjoying playing defection (or whatever it's called on Kelpie).

DE was fully aware of how toxic the arcane market was, which is what Scarlet spear was for: it crashed the market which was a good thing because Energize was 1k plat. Now it's around 300 if you're lucky to 5 6 or 700 so its climbing again. 

They'll release SS again and people will get another chance to complete their sets. But those arcanes are still this games version of an "endgame item" and should be relatively rare if that's their choice. Every game has something not easily attainable which is operator ways, arcanes, vox Solaris arcanes, baruuk and hildryn (which you can just buy if you farm plat and use a 75%) and maybe something else I'm forgetting like Condition Overload or something.

And also, syndicates provide an almost near constant stream of 5 to 20 plat via selling augments, and archgun parts (rail jack increased their demand a little).

People can farm plat for stuff they don't want to buy, and they could even do both plat farming and playing the games content for drops simultaneously.

I'm ok with an increase in drop chance and better RNG, but many people have asked already I'm sure, so it's up to DE to decide if they're gonna do it or not. 

[master_of_destiny]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea I agree that basically any game is "pick your poison". I've been lucky with RNG but I probably play more. I get 100 ducat parts all the time lol. Yea, Gauss took me a few days to farm. I got 3 systems in a row once, but like I said, it wasn't an issue for me as I was enjoying playing defection (or whatever it's called on Kelpie).

DE was fully aware of how toxic the arcane market was, which is what Scarlet spear was for: it crashed the market which was a good thing because Energize was 1k plat. Now it's around 300 if you're lucky to 5 6 or 700 so its climbing again. 

They'll release SS again and people will get another chance to complete their sets. But those arcanes are still this games version of an "endgame item" and should be relatively rare if that's their choice. Every game has something not easily attainable which is operator ways, arcanes, vox Solaris arcanes, baruuk and hildryn (which you can just buy if you farm plat and use a 75%) and maybe something else I'm forgetting like Condition Overload or something.

And also, syndicates provide an almost near constant stream of 5 to 20 plat via selling augments, and archgun parts (rail jack increased their demand a little).

People can farm plat for stuff they don't want to buy, and they could even do both plat farming and playing the games content for drops simultaneously.

I'm ok with an increase in drop chance and better RNG, but many people have asked already I'm sure, so it's up to DE to decide if they're gonna do it or not. 

Let's not rehash the discussion, but going from requiring 10 arcanes to 21 effectively tripled the number of runs required to get a maxed arcane.  DE chose to make this change in an effort to rebalance them, and not have "optimized" builds.  That is to say, previously people stacked multiple of the same arcane.  This is largely why the arcane costs were stupidly high, 1000+ runs of the eidolons is months of grinding and simply spending real money was infinitely easier and better valuation of your time.

 

The community rightly flipped out when they announced this.  Squishy frames often stacked armor adding arcanes to prevent death, and DE effectively was nerfing it twice over.  The effect was decreased, and the cost was doubled.  The huge backlash forced them to announce that arcanes would be purchasable in an event, and even to rework all the frames so that everyone had at least 100 armor base.  

 

As such, arcanes are not an endgame grind.  You functionally need them for higher level content, and the only constant source is a bad RNG roll on a time gated event against a boss that is not fun to most players after beating the same thing thousands of times.  Not being hyperbolic there, three eidolons where 1407 captures of the trio are needed is about 4500 eidolons to be captured.  It is not possible to expedite this with skill, only to increase the number of captures in a time window through optimized team formation.  This idiot will still require 1407 average captures, whether it's running it 200 days or running it 1407 days.  

 

 

Regarding syndicates....it's people placing expenditure of real money ahead of tedium.  I can run a silence banshee on Adaro and get about 5k syndicate standing consistently (some runs going up to 10k without an affinity boost).  I have to grind MR to get more capacity, but right now this means about 30 minutes a day and I can get maxed syndicate standing increases.  It's not rocket science, and if I can do it easily I'm sure someone with a partner and a rest equinox will keep that 5x stealth multiplier and do it in 10 minutes.

Now let's again ask why if it's that simple there's any financial benefit to doing it?  Game design.  MR grinds are tedious, dozens of hours to get an extra 1000 standing a day are not worth the time for players who want a diversion and not a second job.  Likewise, the benefits of syndicates aren't exactly outlined by DE during their "tutorial."   

  Consider me biased, but I'd prefer if syndicates rewarded less trade enabled goods.  My reasoning is that if syndicates mattered, and their reputation could lead to truly unique mechanics, they could be our endgame.  Imagine a mission that goes from spy, to sabatoge, to an exterminate.  You're locked to syndicate only weapons, and the enemies have a sortie style modifier associated with them.  Each day the syndicate offers a new mission chain, and there's a daily leader board so that the team that clears their mission in the fastest time can get extra rewards.  This daily mission rewards not syndicate standing, but a new token.  Said tokens can be traded in a "black market" to purchase anything from other syndicate gear to rare resource (toroids and the like).  This offers a constant reward, choices of rewards, and most importantly competition amongst players that generates rivalry without conflict.

This would mean that syndicate weapons would not be tradeable.  It would mean that people would have to grind for all three syndicate weapons, and that they'd have to use the inventory slots for them.  This would all be balanced out by having high level content that awards both a constant currency and competitive experience to earn more.  The reward to players would either be accumulation of syndicate gear, or more poignantly less dependence on RNG drops that can sometimes kill the fun of the game.  This is one idea for a constantly rewarding endgame, not based upon simply throwing tankier enemies at players, and one with rewards that can be evergreen by virtue of daily rewards that do not lose their value (given that new resources would constantly be filtering in to what could be purchased, say universal medallions).  

I understand the platinum grind.  What I would counter is that I've purchased a few prime access packs.  I still have several thousand platinum, and have enough slots, color pallets, and the Xiphos.  Assuming that you don't spend  a couple hundred platinum on the cosmetics all of the time, the warframe economy doesn't really require a lot of purchases constantly.  It may seem odd saying that, as I have made criticism of the costing, but being honest here it's not like you've got more than a couple hundred platinum per year of expenditure to buy the 8 warframe slots, maybe 10 weapon slots, and 2 companion slots worth of content added per year that's worth retaining.  The only people who can argue against that are the ones with hundreds of weapons, of which they may only regularly use about a dozen.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

 

...

Point 3, lack of bug fixing, ties into Why we can't have point 2.

DE isn't a AAA studio. 200 employees is Tiny. Their history is mostly contractor work for bigger studios. They got lucky with Warframe and they're in over their head now, the game is growing faster than them.

And my impression is the majority of their people are artists and 'content' creators, not actual Programmers. They're still milking the 12 year old Dark Sector game engine because they don't have enough programmer staff to build anything better or improve it or fix bugs.

And its probably going to stay that way. So long as they current strategy of "release a bunch of reskins, shiny yet irrelevant new gear, script in some new stories and cutscenes. repeat in a few months to get an influx of temporary players" continues to pay off.

 

I'm going to disagree.  The argument that "DE isn't a AAA studio" is a joke.  If you'd like to make that argument, I'd suggest you define why games like Terraria exist.  Terraria has a fraction of the bugs of warframe, has been putting out content for longer than warframe, and has a development team you can count on your fingers.  

What it gives up is three dimensions, but let's look at that as an order of magnitude more difficult.  The off-hand math there is then a 60 person team, but DE in fact has 30x the development team.  Terraria has as much content, relies heavily on RNG, and has developed as many bosses as warframe.  

Yes, comparing the two things is not apples to apples, but it highlights that you don't need AAA level teams to make good games.

 

Regarding the reskins....tennogen.  It's a system to community source things, hire only a digital artist, and get away with charging 5 USD and more for a single item "because DE is also paying the person from the community."  They've also announced a greater focus on tennogen going forward.  It's apparent that artists are cheaper than coders, and this is the motivation.

 

Regarding the influx of players....checking the numbers you're not right about it working.  The financial calls suggest that the expenditure of money per player is down.  The second issue is that the influx of players returning is not equal to those who leave during the droughts.  If you hack off half the height of the peak, and add it to the lowest counts, the numbers are rather steadily declining.  That's a trend since PoE, so it's not just a statistical anomaly.  

As an aside, there have been rumors about DE's holding company selling them off.  Said discussion doesn't happen unless there's poor fiscal performance, or an outside company initiates overtures of a purchase.  In the case of the later it's generally successful companies buying out competition.  That's generally not how the buyers suggested in the rumors work, and not how the information we can confirm is taken.

[kwlingo]

Dude there is always post like this but we always see the same people coming back on forums and game. Just enjoy the headache of bugs in Warframe and hope for the best

[master_of_destiny]

6 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Dude there is always post like this but we always see the same people coming back on forums and game. Just enjoy the headache of bugs in Warframe and hope for the best

Stop asking for fixes, and deal with the garbage.

Tens of thousands of people are shed on Steam alone.

DE is putting more focus on tennogen.

We have 3 major releases in a row that the community largely indicates were bad (Old Blood, Railjack, and Scarlet Spear).

Most people leaving never give a reason, but those of us still around should just shut up and take it.  Yeah, that's a hard pass.  The last time I did this kind of posting was before a two year hiatus.  Since that time DE managed to keep going by spending huge amounts of money on a media blitz, introducing new consumers by having console releases, and that has largely been great.  The only thing is that the bad decisions are coming home to roost with the financials.

 

But your advice is just to shut up and take it. 

[kwlingo]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Stop asking for fixes, and deal with the garbage.

Tens of thousands of people are shed on Steam alone.

DE is putting more focus on tennogen.

We have 3 major releases in a row that the community largely indicates were bad (Old Blood, Railjack, and Scarlet Spear).

Most people leaving never give a reason, but those of us still around should just shut up and take it.  Yeah, that's a hard pass.  The last time I did this kind of posting was before a two year hiatus.  Since that time DE managed to keep going by spending huge amounts of money on a media blitz, introducing new consumers by having console releases, and that has largely been great.  The only thing is that the bad decisions are coming home to roost with the financials.

 

But your advice is just to shut up and take it. 

Bro I know how you feel. Trust me I feel the same. If you think about it not many games "F2P" can match what DE has been able to provide. They are not perfect and trust me there are time Im at it with support but in the end, I just have to remeber not to take everything so personal. Its got to be hard even as a gaming company to keep upgrading everything when new technology comes around and satisfy the communities desires. I mean what will DE do when the new consoles are released? Will they be upgrading the graphics of the entire game because if players are not happy with the behind graphic system, players might leaving?

Yes all those updates are not anything great. The last great update was Umbral Excal in my opinion, great quest and story and abilities.

[Kaotis]

En 15/8/2020 a las 3:43, master_of_destiny dijo:

Drop chances are garbage, and RNG based artificial engagement is not good.

I'm probably 450 runs in ESO zone8 ... stil mising 1 pice for the lato and braton .... this point is spot on the money. Good focus farm do ...

 

En 15/8/2020 a las 3:43, master_of_destiny dijo:

Open Worlds are a failure for the warframe model.

You are correct both open worlds weren't designed for long term use... as a lev 29 i honestly don't realy have a reason to visit any of them if they don't add content to them (like the primary kitguns for example)... we are still mising dual katanas from PoE (if memory serves me, they promised it in some devstream that it will be added there) ...not to mention dual handed saw , more mele+side arm weapon combos ....

En 15/8/2020 a las 3:43, master_of_destiny dijo:

Bug fixing is a joke, and the amount of progress in the last five years is not sufficient when compared to a AAA game being put out in less time.

I think you are being a bit mean here with this point, they do fix a lot of bugs (granted they are the ones that create them because of poor coding practices but stil) like the kitgun primary guns with the autorecharge. That bug was with the secondary versions as well (they fixed it) then forgot to put hte good version in the primary (bad coding practices) ... then they remembered and re-re-fixed the problem.

Comparing DE(170 people acording to wikipedia <--- i haven't found a better reference for the nr of people there) that proly have like 20 dedicated coders? with a big studion of 300+ devs that are proly 30-40% only coders is not realy fare.

What i mean to say is, no one wants to put out a poor product, they are doing the best their abilities can do. Not excusing them in any way, i stil finde it offensive that they needed like 3 ish years to code a toggle for hard mode ....wich as originaly promised was only a level boost out of the gate and would have took proly 1 h max to put in the game

En 16/8/2020 a las 1:16, (PS4)haphazardlynamed dijo:

Every time I see a "Why players are leaving"

I think, it really needs to be renamed "Why OP is leaving"

Players and content creators alike have left or have started to expand the content to other games because WF isn't puting food on the table for them .

 

En 16/8/2020 a las 1:28, (PS4)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Despite the rampant bias and negativity on the forums, I've been told by some veteran voices in game and on the forums that the game is in a pretty good spot since the times they played 4 or 5 years ago even. Especially for new players. Their words, not mine. 

Here are some worlds from a rank 29 that has been playing for a while now: the new player experience is lacking a lot, new players dont' know what to do after finishing the tutorial, the game has more mechanics in place than even path of exile (a game that DE in several ocasions have mentioned and aparetly have tried to mimic) . Drop chanses until you reach like rank 10-12 is seem good, ofc this is when you use mostly core game resources and the like... after mr 20 ish and you start to go for a 100% completion you will start to finde the 2% , 5% drop chanses... and be like... why the *** some one tought it was a good idea to put this ?  I have been trying to get players to come back / start playing for a while now... results : after rank 9 they mostly leave after seeing they have 40 sub mechanics( exageration but stil, a lot of things to keep track of) that they should think about.

Only departments the game has actualy improved are visual and technical (as in less game breacking bugs ) if engaging with older content... new content has alwais had bugs for the first 2 weeks or more (right railjack ? )

[Kaotis]

En 16/8/2020 a las 1:28, (PS4)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Here ya go, sir: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics

I'm sure the world would be a better place if we could just take 1 set of data and call it day to fix large scale problems. Unfortunately, it takes a bit more than that.

You're not the first person on the forums to grab the same steam chart people have been using for who knows how long with the intention of saying "See? The games dying!" Or something similar. 

It's a pretty large, complicated and nuanced gaming world out there. 

Player retention is a statistic that indicates how much of the player base sticks around... when you drop content that is "get and forget" you see spikes of veterans poping up to get latest thing... then leaving because they don't have anything to do. Nothing to do == less % of monetary inversion 

[Lemon]

This thread is very sad, someone is disenfranchised and frustrated. He wants to vent and talk about what he perceives to be his friends leaving and his interest waning and people are shunning him and demeaning him and his points. If you don't feel this way then that's okay just write "i don't feel like this at all" but don't dismiss them and attempt to stifle conversation.

34 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Player retention is a statistic that indicates how much of the player base sticks around... when you drop content that is "get and forget" you see spikes of veterans poping up to get lastest thing... then leaving because they don't have anything to do. Nothing to do == less % of monetary inversion 

This cant be stressed how true it is. I could not recommend Steel Path for my friends and Heart of Deimos is an "just enjoy a walk in the park for the lore" type of update, this is not an attitude that is good for the game its not going to make anyone stick around and invest time/money in it.

Every update that's story related or just another soloable extermination i'm just wondering why i'm not just playing a properly tailored single player game. In the early days of Warframe i thought that the missions were placeholder, yet in the newest tilesets they still have an entire tile made for interception. A mode that is counter intuitive when opening relics and does not encourage even sticking together, the only multiplayer aspect in this game that's left anymore... just standing close together.

The "coop shooter" aspect has been neglected for a long time and everything feels like it was just made for solo play. This is just the tip of the iceberg in the unsatisfying state that is combat at early game and late game, but since dissent in this forum is met with death i'm just going to hold my tounge here.

[Kaotis]

hace 9 minutos, Lemon dijo:

The "coop shooter" aspect has been neglected for a long time and everything feels like it was just made for solo play. This is just the tip of the iceberg in the unsatisfying state that is combat at early game and late game, but since dissent in this forum is met with death i'm just going to hold my tounge here.

I would go a step further and say that more and more it's a "hack and slash" right now ... melee weapons are the actual best for 90% of the content (and if you need a sniper you got the redeemer lol). The new helmith system will only boost this play style with warcry/roar or even with the cc powers... 1 slash = 20 corpses.