Cetus and new players, just how confusing is it?.

[0_The_F00l]

49 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

It's not quite as easy as that. New players would benefit greatly from trying to do the content solo, but they also need to be told that coop is an option they can and should use for certain things.

And that is a rather difficult message to properly communicate. Setting solo to be the default mode fails to communicate the latter part of the message, same as setting coop to be the default mode fails to communicate the former part. I'd love to suggest a solution, but I don't know what that would be.

Something like this

Game First starts

Default Solo  - Public Locked

Beat first boss  - public unlocked but limited to pairing with friends and new public players until competency increased.

Lotus speaks: Since the negator has been removed you can now pair up with other Tenno.

When public - DE Matchmaking algorithm (currently very poor) - pairs only with Tenno in similar competency group based on combination of challenges, Mastery , time played , Mods used, forma eaten, star chart cleared.

Option in settings - "Match me to only my competency" toggle.

 

Yes not exactly easy , but not impossible to implement.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

pairs only with Tenno in similar competency group based on combination of challenges, Mastery , time played , Mods used, forma eaten, star chart cleared

Making a good matchmaking algorithm is much more difficult than you might realise. While the traits you mentioned do "sort of" suggest a degree of player experience (not necessarily competence), they are very subjective, and turning them into any sort of "competency ranking" would be a HUGE amount of work (and a very difficult one at that)

• Challenges: does the fact I've found all the caves on the Valis ("Valis spelunker"?) suggest that I'm better at interception missions than someone who hasn't?
• Mastery: let's not even go down that rabbit hole
• time played: arguable. How exactly did you spend that time?
• mods used: is someone using a maxed Primed Pressure Point better or worse than someone using a maxed Condition Overload?
• forma eaten: does putting 500 forma on an Excalibur (forma bought for plat, leveling while leeching at Hydron) make someone a better player?
• star chart cleared: irrelevant except in the early game, hard to compare even then (did you clear that node yourself or did your MR29 friend carry you through? Which node is more difficult to clear: survival or defence next to it?).

As you can see, all of these traits need a lot of context to mean anything. While it's theoretically possible to assemble a good matchmaking system, the current one is really not bad enough to commit that sort of an amount of effort to it.

 

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Making a good matchmaking algorithm is much more difficult than you might realise. While the traits you mentioned do "sort of" suggest a degree of player experience (not necessarily competence), they are very subjective, and turning them into any sort of "competency ranking" would be a HUGE amount of work (and a very difficult one at that)

Yes it would be a lot of work , anything worth having would usually take effort. Not doing something just cause it is difficult is a poor excuse.

Experience and competency do have a bit of overlap hence i said it would be a combination of multiple things.

6 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

• Challenges: does the fact I've found all the caves on the Valis ("Valis spelunker"?) suggest that I'm better at interception missions than someone who hasn't?

It implies you are aware of your your way around the vallis , so that puts your competency/experience for any missions/bounties on the vallis or you atleast know how to move from point A to point B without being killed repeatedly by the enemies in the vallis  so that adds a few points to you.

The "Control Freak" Challenge would imply you know how to do the interception well enough as compared to those that have not.

I didn't say "number" of challenges , each challenge has its own merit and weightage to consider.

8 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

• Mastery: let's not even go down that rabbit hole

Yes, but DE feels its a good enough indicator , it would be silly to not consider it as an attribute in the calculations.

12 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

• time played: arguable. How exactly did you spend that time?

In missions, could also be sub categorized into time spent in different mission types. Spending hours in a capture mission is pointless, spending hours in survival does show some preparation .

14 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

• mods used: is someone using a maxed Primed Pressure Point better or worse than someone using a maxed Condition Overload?

Usually worse but can be exceptions. whats better a maxed prime pressure point or an flawed heavy trauma? that answer is usually much easier. comparing two top line maxed mods is really a poor example.

Also there will be multiple mods each with it own weighting based on rank.

A new player will usually have flawed mods that he can just fit on his build with low ranks. experienced players will have partially ranked good mods with maybe a few forma, Vets will usually have.

This i believe is relatively easy to calculate - especially with the current "mandatory" mods setup we have.

26 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

• forma eaten: does putting 500 forma on an Excalibur (forma bought for plat, leveling while leeching at Hydron) make someone a better player?

No but it makes them someone that deserves to be paired with actual players so they know what a waste of time and money has been made by them while they are left in dirt.

My 2 forma frame with reactor is definitely better than my same 0 forma frame without reactor , it also means that i at least understand the concept of polarities on that frame (for better or for worse) and also understand the concept of leveling frames or weapons multiple times.

Again , needs to be together with other aspects and not by itself.

30 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

• Star chart cleared: irrelevant except in the early game, hard to compare even then (did you clear that node yourself or did your MR29 friend carry you through? Which node is more difficult to clear: survival or defence next to it?).

i believe the topic at hand is for new players? so yes all points made are for relevance in early to mid game for players with no active guidance. it also actively counters your previous statement of one guy only spending time in hydron.

And again pairing will be combination of multiple things and not just one thing, Please see it holistically and not each point in vacuum.

You seem to think i am creating some sort of leader board? thats not the intention, the whole point is so that public matches have a better pairing,

that MR29 player will not be joining that MR0 player in public if the pairing is smart enough and there really is players from different groups to differentiate their competence/experience levels

36 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

As you can see, all of these traits need a lot of context to mean anything. While it's theoretically possible to assemble a good matchmaking system, the current one is really not bad enough to commit that sort of an amount of effort to it.

yes, they do need context but your examples and counter arguments are not quite suitable as i have shown.

My differentiation was trying to limit itself to 4 categories:

1)Fresh out of the cryopod,

2)Basic competence/experrience,

3)Intermediate competence/experience,

4)Salty Vet

If "Its too much effort for DE to improve things which are mediocre but working" is your opinion, its ok ,

but thats up to DE to decide, they already have the data points , a shame if they dont want to take advantage of it,

i will provide my opinions on the current state of the game from my viewpoint whenever the opportunity comes up to discuss improvement to it.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

7 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

that MR29 player will not be joining that MR0 player in public if the pairing is smart enough and there really is players from different groups to differentiate their competence/experience levels

Why not? The void relic the MR0 is carrying is just as likely to drop a Rare part as the one the MR29 is carrying.

14 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

4)Salty Vet

Since the Helminth system was supposed to be "for vets", DE's current idea of "Salty Vet" seems to be "MR8+". I think we need to be careful with terminology like this.

 

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

f "Its too much effort for DE to improve things which are mediocre but working" is your opinion, its ok ,

That's not what I was saying - I was saying that revamping matchmaking would be a HUGE job (if DE tried to do it well). It would require a manual case-by-case analysis of all possible "types of competences" and their interactions as related to different types of missions and different other competencies.

And since there is always a limited amount of dev time available, there will always have to be a choice of what to prioritise. And if you asked for my what to prioritise between the revamped matchmaking and

• 3rd Vallis Orb Mother,
• Railjack Command Intrinsic,
• Revamping some of the older boss fights (Vay Hek, Sargus Ruk, Mutallist Alad,...) like they did with Jackal,

for me the matchmaking revamp would be in last place, since I think any of the other three (or many other examples) would be a greater improvement to the game.

If you disagree with that priority - that's perfectly OK. Reasonable people can sometimes disagree.

[(XBOX)InductiveBag46]

Jesus how does anyone bare to hear that voice for 20 minutes

[0_The_F00l]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Why not? The void relic the MR0 is carrying is just as likely to drop a Rare part as the one the MR29 is carrying.

IF there are enough players trying to do that mission then those in similar competency group will be paired together,

if there are not enough players then other groups will be paired.

Its would depend on how many players are doing that fissure.

12 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Since the Helminth system was supposed to be "for vets", DE's current idea of "Salty Vet" seems to be "MR8+". I think we need to be careful with terminology like this.

Something Else DE needs to think about and understand.

13 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

That's not what I was saying - I was saying that revamping matchmaking would be a HUGE job (if DE tried to do it well). It would require a manual case-by-case analysis of all possible "types of competences" and their interactions as related to different types of missions and different other competencies.

Again , up to DE to decide whats worth their time.

15 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

And since there is always a limited amount of dev time available, there will always have to be a choice of what to prioritise. And if you asked for my what to prioritise between the revamped matchmaking and

• 3rd Vallis Orb Mother,
• Railjack Command Intrinsic,
• Revamping some of the older boss fights (Vay Hek, Sargus Ruk, Mutallist Alad,...) like they did with Jackal,

for me the matchmaking revamp would be in last place, since I think any of the other three (or many other examples) would be a greater improvement to the game.

There are different teams just as there are different feedback/bug report sections that those teams check and implement in the game.

Matchmaking is its own section ,

what you have described is more in line with content creation/upkeep.

UI change was not on my priority either , yet here we have it, with results that are up to taste (some like it some dont).

18 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

If you disagree with that priority - that's perfectly OK. Reasonable people can sometimes disagree.

I would much rather have a mod refresh where both useless and mandatory mods are removed or integrated as alternate mechanics.

Doesn't mean i would not like some QoL to matchmaking as well.

Different people have different preferences , opinions and priorities, that's completely understandable they need not be wrong, just different.

 

[(PSN)grayhyh]

I'd lock any kind of open world accessibillity to mr5 tbh,vay hek is mr5 locked why not open worlds too? open worlds has nothing for new players to do much either way and low mr players struggle to even do the first bounties,Plus there is not really any extra benefits to go there much really especially for new players.

You need to do the fortuna quest to even access orb vallis(idk about deimos lol) and you unlock deimos at mars so basically mr 2 can access camboid drift lol.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 2020-09-22 at 2:31 AM, SerphV said:

I didnt know CETUS has RAIN...~~

OMG...

It also has varying degrees of rainfall strength.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 2020-09-22 at 7:47 AM, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

I started Warframe relatively recently (just over a year ago) so I did go to the Plains/Valis as a brand new MR0/1 player.

Personally, I did not find the Plains experience particularly confusing. But I suspect that was because I played on solo mode for quite while before I started doing public squads.

On my first few Plains missions, I was able to go at my own speed and figure things out. The first time I went to the Plains at night, I was promptly murdered by the first  Vormvalyst I met (right next to the Cetus gate) - that told me to stick to daytime until I get better stuff. IT was somewhat of a learning curve, but it got me to a better understanding of the game's basics.

If you immediately go to public missions, you will end up in the situations, where you've just spawned in, looked around, and the mission suddenly finishes because the high-level player you got teamed up with did everything already. Or worse, you get dumped into content waaay above your level (I often keep my matchmaking on public while doing eidolons. I still remember the one time an MR1 Mag got added to my squad half-way through a Terry fight - he had his mic on and the commentary I heard from him was rather "surprised")

While Warframe is a coop game, I think it would benefit most new players greatly if they stayed in solo mode for a bit longer at the start of their playthrough. Not sure what DE would need to do to achieve that without discouraging coop play though.

Pretty much what you said. I enjoy watching playthroughs of Warframe and I watched one guy play with his subs and they ran him through every mission, like he has 0% damage taken or done levels of carried. He played on his own one day and figured out he wasnt geared enough to be in the part of the star chart he was in. He figured this out because the raptor deleted him easily and he only managed to blow up 1 before he ran out of revives. Someone pointed out he got carried and he banned the dude. 

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

On 2020-09-22 at 3:39 PM, BahamutKaiser said:

Way points need an overhaul, as well as objective descriptions, there's plenty of space in one of the menus to put some explanation. 

Really cannot stress how much i agree with you here. I really want Warframe to be easier to get new lads in that actually stick around. Kicking myself for not trying harder with my mate. But it's like every flippin mintue having to explain something or re explain something.

[SpicyDinosaur]

We had another thread with a new player upset about cetus/PoE being right in the middle of earth. I was a bit of a jerk but the more I think about it, the more it bothers me.

 

I tried out DE's "New Player Experience" and it was pretty much just a prev trailer attached to a few minor things to do that didn't really make the things a newbie would encounter clear at all. As always, DE is clueless about their own game unfortunately.

 

I think a series of incremental quests, just little ones, at each or some of the junctions to progress would be really nice. It's too much in one go, but feeding it to players bit by bit would help a lot, and not everyone learns well if they just read something, so the tiny help the Codex provides and some of the other tooltips is not very helpful. This would require effort. Considering what they believed a "new player experience" should equate to, I'm not sure they are willing to put in the effort. Which is sad. 

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

7 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

We had another thread with a new player upset about cetus/PoE being right in the middle of earth. I was a bit of a jerk but the more I think about it, the more it bothers me.

 

I tried out DE's "New Player Experience" and it was pretty much just a prev trailer attached to a few minor things to do that didn't really make the things a newbie would encounter clear at all. As always, DE is clueless about their own game unfortunately.

 

I think a series of incremental quests, just little ones, at each or some of the junctions to progress would be really nice. It's too much in one go, but feeding it to players bit by bit would help a lot, and not everyone learns well if they just read something, so the tiny help the Codex provides and some of the other tooltips is not very helpful. This would require effort. Considering what they believed a "new player experience" should equate to, I'm not sure they are willing to put in the effort. Which is sad. 

Would definitely love to see them with each junction defeat be given a full quest that gives a run down of an entire system for each new planet. Maybe Mars teaches them about modding , ranking up mods and even have steps to combine the different elements to take down different mobs.

Would require abit of work yes but Warframe only has so many years in it and new players boost it's life always. Getting them to turn from new players to veterans is the key. Giving them the correct tools inside the game as to not frustrate them when they should be having fun.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

Warframe has players teach players how to play the game. 
Because DE can't be bothered. 

[kevoisvevo]

Ah cetus, I rememwber th first day I joined I ended up going into a teralyst fight as a weak ass excalibur. Got chewed out by everyone in my squad and they all aborted leaving me confused lol.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

3 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

Ah cetus, I rememwber th first day I joined I ended up going into a teralyst fight as a weak ass excalibur. Got chewed out by everyone in my squad and they all aborted leaving me confused lol.

I had the opposite experience. My first fight I took Excalibur Umbra and I was swinging my exalted blade thinking I was helping, and then wondering why I kept getting downed. My teammates who knew what they were doing didn't say anything bad, and kept reviving me.