I am about done with this game.

[TastyTaro]

everytime i see one of these topics i lose a little bit of faith in human race. are people getting more dumb over the years or it is just me getting more bitter and cynical with every day?

"why game does not explain to me how to play, and i want a silver platter as well... and a cookie" >_>

[Malorensiad]

16 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

 

I just can't remember a single game i never had to look outside of it to get some infos about the game. And any games with some level of complexity in term of mechanics never achieved it.

This first part doesn't make sense to me. I don't care what the business model of a game is, i care about the game itself...
 

Second part lacks specifics... Never seen someone being invincible by spending money though... And there are ways to get it for free if you look a bit about how to get platinum.

Well there are many differents approach to game, and some prefer to discover new mechanics by themselves... I'm confused about the spending an hour on finding how to damage something... like not specific about what you're talking about and pretty sure you've a problem in the way you search infos if you spend an hour for that.

Also means you've the opportunity to find the best source of info that works for you... A ingame tutorial can be failed and more confusing ...
I've seen so many people discussing business models and ... well... don't care about your opinion to be honest. 

So far the only arguments i've seen from you is 'i'm lazy and dont' want to search things for games" Like... not very compelling imo.

It depends massively on what you ask. Like won't give a lesson to everyone trying to figure out how to get some specific fishing components, or a lich weapon. I'm playing a game to kill things, not to be a school teacher for people entitled to find everything in the game.

1/ There's no restaurant that would do that... And you don't have to get there.

 

2/ Oh... wait... i thought there was something going on but nope... completely irrelevant comparison there.

 

That change is Money btw.

Great easter season comes soon can't wait for it :D

Well aren’t we full of ourselves. 

[Malorensiad]

16 hours ago, Kel_Silonius said:

everytime i see one of these topics i lose a little bit of faith in human race. are people getting more dumb over the years or it is just me getting more bitter and cynical with every day?

"why game does not explain to me how to play, and i want a silver platter as well... and a cookie" >_>

That seems like a severe reaction to wanting in game help with the mass of stuff in game. But be angry at another persons opinion. I’m sure you will live a long healthy life that way. 

[Malorensiad]

On 2021-03-16 at 8:52 PM, DrivaMain said:

Warframe has one of the worst tutorial system in the gaming industry. The game is so bloated with content it's hard to keep track of them all.

You either accept the fact that you have to open the wiki at ALL times or stop playing. I am not holding my breath about a better ingame tutorial system

That is at least an answer I can’t argue with. Bend over and take it if you want to play. It is hilarious how mad people get when you ask for in game help, in a game. They defend how hard it was for them to the death. How dare it be easier and make more sense. 

[Malorensiad]

16 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

 

I just can't remember a single game i never had to look outside of it to get some infos about the game. And any games with some level of complexity in term of mechanics never achieved it.

This first part doesn't make sense to me. I don't care what the business model of a game is, i care about the game itself...
 

Second part lacks specifics... Never seen someone being invincible by spending money though... And there are ways to get it for free if you look a bit about how to get platinum.

Well there are many differents approach to game, and some prefer to discover new mechanics by themselves... I'm confused about the spending an hour on finding how to damage something... like not specific about what you're talking about and pretty sure you've a problem in the way you search infos if you spend an hour for that.

Also means you've the opportunity to find the best source of info that works for you... A ingame tutorial can be failed and more confusing ...
I've seen so many people discussing business models and ... well... don't care about your opinion to be honest. 

So far the only arguments i've seen from you is 'i'm lazy and dont' want to search things for games" Like... not very compelling imo.

It depends massively on what you ask. Like won't give a lesson to everyone trying to figure out how to get some specific fishing components, or a lich weapon. I'm playing a game to kill things, not to be a school teacher for people entitled to find everything in the game.

1/ There's no restaurant that would do that... And you don't have to get there.

 

2/ Oh... wait... i thought there was something going on but nope... completely irrelevant comparison there.

 

That change is Money btw.

Great easter season comes soon can't wait for it :D

Also, did you even see the point as it went shooting, right over your head?

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Well the game is at least trying nowadays... I mean for years you had stuff like the lotus explaining you you had to destroy the Kuva Siphons when in fact you had to figure out there were these strange clouds that were spawning and that for some reason hitting them with a child made the pipes on the syphon explode... At least nowadays she says very helpful stuff like "your operator form is key"...

Funny thing is , to this day I'm sure 90% of the fanbase have no idea how to defeat Lech Krill...

[Xikto]

@Malorensiad Well the first step in making something like this change is to leave the game... ye and that's also the last step.

 

Since it is quite obvious at this point that unless something major happens and they start loosing player interest they ain't gonna hear or listen to what you have to say. 
(yes i am being a bit dramatic but like can you blame me?)

[Prexades]

When I first started playing, I always had the warframe wiki open on my second monitor. I agree, not everything is explained well but at the same time it would be really obnoxious to suddenly face hundreds of pop up windows with tutorials on how to do x in the game. At least now you can always replay the 'Awakening' mission and it will teach all there is about the controls of the game.

Also a lot of stuff does not need to be read, if you want to play Wisp it is a good idea to read some info about her kit before modding her, but if you don't want to use her, you can still enjoy the buff from a team member without any in depths knowledge.

[Graavarg]

I can understand some players needing a helping hand from the developers. After all, this has been a trend in games for a while now, including "adjusting difficulty for maximum enjoyment". Those games are not for me, I absolutely hate it such %¤#¤#! "adjusted enjoyment", I would rather bang my head bloody against a mission until I solve it than "get automated help making everything easier".

It's the same with tutorials, I always skip them. Because being forced to learn on little thing at a time totally destroys the enjoyment coming from figuring it out on your own. Then again, I played my first game on a VIC-20 and for quite a long time all you got when you bought a boxed game was a cassette, a floppy or a disc. By the time cd's had arrived there were actually games that came with a short printed manual (often bloody hard to read, due to the "background graphics" meant to stop photocopying... 🙂

I do want manuals for some games (like "War in the East"), and I really like when games have encyclopedias of their own, so I don't have to remember every single detail.

But it would never enter my mind to DEMAND help (or no help, or whatever). Or conclude that it is the game that wrongly designed if I don't like it. That seems like a bout of "millennial sickness", the brain fever that makes someone think they are at the center of the universe and everything should be about them and what they want. I've bought a lot of games over the years where I had a hope (or a wish?) that they would live up to even half the hype, but they didn't. Or where the game is impressive enough, and then there is that one thing (like the %¤#¤%& level-adapting enemies in Skyrim, which idiot designer came up with that supremely dumb idea). The only thing you can do if it feels bad enough is stop playing them.

So I do agree with your conclusion, if Warframe feels that bad your best bet is to find another game to play. Complaining in the forum might help by venting some of the frustration, but ultimately it is futile, it will not change the game and it will not change how you experience it. I do wonder though, do you think that posting about personally "being done with the game" is important information for the forum readers, or what was the actual point you wanted to make...?

[UilliamNebel]

On 2021-03-14 at 11:27 AM, Leyvonne said:

Asking other players here on the forum or on reddit or asking Google takes only a few minutes. There should be more games that don't hold your hand through everything and only give you the very basics. That actually forces you to take your time and learn what, why, where, when and how.

There is a distinct difference between hand holding, and showing up to do a very detailed, procedural, objective with no guidance at all, and on top of that not placing any of that guidance within the game on the mechanics, at all. A 'Smart movie' gives you everything in the first few acts to think on, and ponder as you watch the conclusion. A pretentious piece of overly 'artistic' indulgence tries to be '2 deep 4 U' with nothing more than attempts at stirring cinematic experience while not delivering anything with it's conclusion. WF solidly, solidly is in '2 deep 4 U' territory with its just no nice way to put it, laziness, in laying things out in an effort to create immersion and buy in. Hand holding, like a tutorial is hardly required. That said, it wouldn't kill them to make a few 'Hey wow, check this awesome game mechanic effect out' like they have done with parkour 2.0 in the past. Could be as simple as a 'visit' to a Corpus lab early in the progression to Venus, to come across elemental game mechanics.

And that may well be hitting on a sore spot of DE. Perception of zero economic incentive to go back, and re-work existing content. Instead, being stuck in a reactionary insanity of putting everything into new content to appease a base they are misreading, badly. Yes, I want new content. But as a player, and stake holder, I want those who come after me to have a better, not easier, time of it than I have. Because I know that is the other side of an equation to get new players in. Sure, new content brings back old players, with a 'gotta catch 'em all' need to collect items, etc. That is fairly easy to do, even with lack luster new content. But bringing in, and retaining new players, drives a far more worth while growth of the game, and it's potential for revenue (# of new player potential > than # of potential returning players).

Than, to OP's very valid point. How bad would it be, as an entertainment medium for a movie, television show, book, poem, song, etc.. needing you to check out of it, to go to a third party to get details on it? Sure, a game like Dungeon's & Dragon's, routinely have this issue. But there, that is well understood to be a detriment to the game experience, it is why every Dungeon Master's guide since third edition has recommended that the Dungeon Master make a call, and later on, work out what the rules were and if it works in their game. So it isn't like the 'but muh roleplay game' even is an out for this sort of design. If DE were a DM, they'd be rather sub par with their level for setting expectations, and giving players exposure to mechanics they need to understand to have a challenge, by even just having a chance, with the content.

Asking for reasonable effort, to provide explanation and grounding, in game mechanics is not hand holding.

[Proscriptor]

On 2021-03-14 at 9:26 PM, Malorensiad said:

No. Just in general frustration. I am tired of spending hours just to spend hours. When there should be a hub for information and tutorials in game. That isn’t unreasonable. 

I never had any difficulty advancing in the game or understanding the basics. Something seems wrong in your approach. 

[STUVash]

Le 14/03/2021 à 18:50, Malorensiad a dit :

Why is there NEVER any guidance or help IN THE GAME!!!

There are some in game tips, tutorials and lengthy tooltips if you hover your mouse over the right place.
Some boss fights do have some visual clue and some dialogue also give clues on when the game is expecting something from you, on some other time there are even text on screen telling you straight what you should be doing.

But you're right overall, the information given isn't exactly complete if there's any.
However, the target audience should, in theory, feel rewarded for learning the game little by little. It falls in line with the main plot too, dunno if you went that far yet.

You do know the start of your story though so I can remind you.

Révélation

They were called Tenno. Warriors of blade and gun: masters of the Warframe armor. Those that survived the old war were left drifting among the ruins. Now they are needed once more.

The Grineer, with their vast armies, are spreading throughout the solar system. A call echoes across the stars summoning the Tenno to an ancient place. They summon you.

Allow the Lotus to guide you. She has rescued you from your cryostasis chamber and given you a chance to survive. The Grineer will find you; you must be prepared. The Lotus will teach you the ways of the Warframes and the secrets to unlocking their powers.

COME TENNO, YOU MUST JOIN THE WAR.
Warframe | Cinematic Intro - TennoCon 2019 - YouTube

Tennos disappeared one day, it's been SO long that they were actually forgotten by most.

You may be a Tenno, but you're still learning. You probably don't even know who you are anymore. During the whole game you'll be learning.
You, Tenno, name used for both the player and the character you play. Learning to use your weapons, your powers, and your history. It makes sense with the main plot to not have everything explained to you.

 

 

Le 14/03/2021 à 18:50, Malorensiad a dit :

I shouldn’t have to leave the damned game every time I want to find out how to do something in the game!!! This is 101 stuff.

 while you spend an hour figuring out how to damage something in a mission, that should be told to you when you encounter it the first time.

The Codex that you can find in your orbiter give you really basic information on the game in general. But the information you find there is correct, it's a decent start.
There is indeed "101 stuff" when it comes to combat in Warframe. Once you understand the fundamentals it goes rather smoothly.

Each enemy has a specific damage resistance/weakness, a player gets to know an enemy damage resistance by scanning it enough times with a Codex Scanner or a Synthesis Scanner. One can also put a specific augment on the Synthesis scanner to see the damage resistance during combat. Once you know the enemy weakness, you not only avoid reducing your damage but you'll also increase it if you exploit its weakness.

As for what each stat or damage type does, you can hover your mouse over each stat when you're on an upgrade window, you'll be able to read short but rather precise tooltip description for each of them. Some tooltip even explain complex hidden mechanic that no dialogue in the game would tell you.
If you're hovering over a specific damage type, you may also get a description of the Status effect if you get lucky with your Status Chance.

There are also tips for each warframe ability kit. If you go to the Abilities window, you'll find Tips related to the abilities and how you could use them. Whenever you're on a window you have questions about, try to look for an icon that can give you Tips.

Sometimes they are a question mark "?" sometimes they're called "Tips", they may be called something else later on. But looking around your screen should lead you to one of these if there's any.

Just these and testing things yourself would be enough to figure the whole game. But. Many players came before you and have already spent hours testing, you can find them on the forum or on the wiki. They go in great length to explain their discoveries and are happy to share.
Eventually, if you keep playing, you'll meet a new mechanic or a strange one that no one tested yet. That's when you'll have to make your own experiment to figure out.
But for the rest, you could rely on the community if you do want even more help.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-03-14 at 7:50 PM, Malorensiad said:

Having to start over was already a pain.

 I did the same thing after Season 1 of nIghtwave.

And Honestly.... It was more Pleasurable than Painful....  I'm going attribute this to me choosing to Start Over rather than me being forced to Start Over....

That being said there's still plenty of pain to go around.... After being pampered by my Arcanes and Rare Mods... Having to give all of that up was definitely no barrel of Laughs. But even doing that was not as bad as my Experience with Railjack and Deadlock Protocol at launch (mind you that includes Farming the Broken Atmo Systems all over again).

On 2021-03-14 at 7:50 PM, Malorensiad said:

Nothing is explained. Absolutely nothing. Start a new mission you haven’t done before, and there are no open squads for, oh a new boss, oh a boss fight, oh he’s immune. Lotus comes up and says to “kill it” and, “that’s now working”, no way, it isn’t working. I can clearly see that it isn’t working!!! Why is there NEVER any guidance or help IN THE GAME!!! I shouldn’t have to leave the damned game every time I want to find out how to do something in the game!!! This is 101 stuff.

This....

This doesn't just a sum the New Player Experience.... This is also the experience of all new Modes and Events that get Added to this game.... And that's even before you factor in the bugs.... Oh god... The Bugs 😱....

On 2021-03-14 at 8:27 PM, Leyvonne said:

Asking other players here on the forum or on reddit or asking Google takes only a few minutes. There should be more games that don't hold your hand through everything and only give you the very basics. That actually forces you to take your time and learn what, why, where, when and how.

 

On 2021-03-14 at 8:28 PM, disrawtomato said:

Right on the contrary, the best games were made without any tutorials and are probably older than you.

 

This is actually a Myth.... Some of the Great Games that people claimed have no Handholding actually do have Handholding.... The hand just happens to be invisible.

The original Metroid, Resident Evil4, Half Life and even Ocarina Of Time have been designed to secretly guide players and making them feel more bad ass or clever than Developers know we are. That's what makes Miyamoto-san so legendary... He knows what gamers are actually like... We have big Egos and Grossly overestimate our Abilities... Hence talented Developers account for that when Designing their games.

 

Ofcourse on the other Side of the Spectrum you have Games that genuinely don't Hold your Hand.... Like Ninja Gaiden.... those tend to only be remembered by people with Rose Tinted Glasses.

On 2021-03-14 at 9:54 PM, kingh135 said:

leyzargamingviews does many weapon guides that explain modding and stuff

 

I Wish Sapmatic didn't drop Warframe because he was my Guiding Light for understanding any of the Nuances for Warframe....

But sadly his Videos are outdated now.

That being said.. I love Leysar's dedication to keeping us all up to speed on how stuff works.. his Charm is a fun Bonus ontop of the Education 😉.

On 2021-03-14 at 10:25 PM, Malorensiad said:

I do find it hilarious how fast people come out of the woodwork to defend the fact that there isn’t any help from the creators of the game. It shows me how long YOU have put up with it, so therefore I must as well

I mean.... I want to believe that it's not that Simple.... But when I read enough of these comments made by those people... There's just no other explanation..... If there is... I can't see it.

 

Is there a word of a Video Game version of Stock Holm Syndrome ?🤔

On 2021-03-14 at 10:34 PM, Malorensiad said:

The players are the only support system. They are being expected to do the job of the makers for them by giving the information out.

Soooo... Does that make us... Pseudo-Developers ? 🤔.... Do we get a Title ? Because I would really like a Title....🙂.

On 2021-03-14 at 11:29 PM, Leyvonne said:

Then ask in the Q&A chat in game..

Well.... This is a DE made Feature..... Although I can't help but say that this doesn't uphold intended spirit of Informing the Player....

On 2021-03-15 at 1:29 AM, Bengosha said:

 

I get your menu analogy but if you look at how much content is in the game, the wiki is nearly required reading unless you like surprises and insist on finding your own way around things. Good on you if this is the case.

If you said YouTube or Discord then I would agree with you but anything that's on the Wiki can easily be Replicated in the Codex by the Developers themselves....

After all... They made the game so they can give out Details that's even more Accurate than what you'll find in the Wiki...

 

That being said.... All this does is save me from having to Have a Browser open in another Window...

I doubt this Solution would have alleviate my first time Frustrations with things like Eidolon's, Deadlock Protocol and Exploiter.

On 2021-03-15 at 1:30 AM, (XBOX)Chuss The Red said:

The ingame help articles in the codex were enough for me to understand the basics back in 2014. Never needed to use the wiki or video guides when approaching something new and i get tired of people suggesting them in chats when things are easy enough to just give a breif explanation.

In my defence... The game itself doesn't even tell you to use the Codex to get information.... I remember my frustration trying to acquire a series of mods and having to to use the Wiki to find all the Drop Sources.... 

A friend told me that this information (albeit rather incomplete) was in the Codex long before the game ever did....

On 2021-03-17 at 2:52 AM, DrivaMain said:

You either accept the fact that you have to open the wiki at ALL times or stop playing. I am not holding my breath about a better ingame tutorial system

Would you be willing to Hold your breath if they decided to Release Content less Frequently ?

Because I think part of the problem is that every 3 Months there's always some sort of New Mode or Rework or Rebalance that changes atleast in Small part how we understand how things work and so DE just doesn't bother with a Tutorial for it....

Getting that that to Slow down might buy them time to make a Tutorial... Maybe ?

On 2021-03-17 at 3:20 PM, AkyFenrir said:

I just can't remember a single game i never had to look outside of it to get some infos about the game. And any games with some level of complexity in term of mechanics never achieved it.

To be fair... It's difficult to say if Warframe's Complexity is Mechanical or Informational.... Hell... I'm not even sure if those two things are Mutually Exclusive 😱 !  

On 2021-03-17 at 3:20 PM, AkyFenrir said:

... I'm confused about the spending an hour on finding how to damage something... like not specific about what you're talking about and pretty sure you've a problem in the way you search infos if you spend an hour for that.

It's not that confusing really....

I guess to understand it it first has to happen to you....

Here's a non-specific example:

1) You play a special mission and reach a point we're the transmission tries to explain when and how you should deal damage.... 

2) You fail multiple times and give up to Look for a Quick Guide explaining what you should do....

3) You then implement what you learned in the Guide including using the same build.... You succeed.... If you can't use the same build... Then the next part is:

4) Thinking that you now understand how the mission works or simply not having access to the same build in the Guide.... You try to reverse Engineer your Understanding of the mission into something that you do have access to or something you actually prefer to use....

5) You try the mission again and this time you fail... Or you succeed but only Barely.... Obviously you missed something....

6) You then go off in search of an even more Detailed and Thorough explaination of the mission.... Something that gets into the nitty gritty high level stuff... This is not something that pop ups in a quick Google search if you don't understand how to Decipher the Wiki just yet.

7) You then find it and Realise a crucial piece of information the game and the initial guide neglected to mention.... Make the necessary adjustments to your Build and Methods....

8) You succeed... Properly this time....

 

People who have gone through this sequence will testify (in Video Game Court) that this process can actually take a number of Hours...

It won't happen for every single time you need to figure out how you need to Damage something... But should DE decide they want to add a new Enemy (Granuum Treasurer) or Gimmick then your prior knowledge can only do so much to shorten the Research Process....

Assuming that's even an Option....

It's Easy to say "Just look it up" for content that is old but Early adopters of new Updates will tell you they never had that option... They just Muddled through it until something worked.

On 2021-03-17 at 3:20 PM, AkyFenrir said:

So far the only arguments i've seen from you is 'i'm lazy and dont' want to search things for games" Like... not very compelling imo.

Pretty sure that's not what he/she said....if anything this response makes it seem like you're the Lazy one since it seems you couldn't grasp OP's point the way others have 🤔....

In any case you shouldn't have quoted that specific section anyway ..... OP was simply venting.... No intellectual discourse has ever emerged from responding to the Venting section of someone's argument.

 

[Leyvonne]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is actually a Myth.... Some of the Great Games that people claimed have no Handholding actually do have Handholding.... The hand just happens to be invisible.

The original Metroid, Resident Evil4, Half Life and even Ocarina Of Time have been designed to secretly guide players and making them feel more bad ass or clever than Developers know we are. That's what makes Miyamoto-san so legendary... He knows what gamers are actually like... We have big Egos and Grossly overestimate our Abilities... Hence talented Developers account for that when Designing their games.

Never played any of those games you mentioned. I grew up playing games that didn't really tell me anything unless I actually checked the manual that came with them and after reading the manual all I had was controls and other basics of gameplay. Then it was up to the player to figure out how to beat a boss or get past a wall that is too high to jump over or where to go next when there was nowhere to go. Those games also had limited time and/or lives and no way to save (unless you hit pause and left them running over night). Imo games should leave room for a) learning and discovery and b) having to interact with the community when it is an online game. Unfortunately many games these days will have button prompts on the screen 24/7 and highlight every object you can use and have GPS to direct you exactly where to go even if the game is supposed to be open world. And then we have games like Warframe that expects player to learn on their own and people complain because they are used to being told everything and playing without thinking.

[Lutesque]

46 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

Never played any of those games you mentioned. I grew up playing games that didn't really tell me anything unless I actually checked the manual that came with them and after reading the manual all I had was controls and other basics of gameplay. Then it was up to the player to figure out how to beat a boss or get past a wall that is too high to jump over or where to go next when there was nowhere to go. Those games also had limited time and/or lives and no way to save (unless you hit pause and left them running over night). Imo games should leave room for a) learning and discovery and b) having to interact with the community when it is an online game. Unfortunately many games these days will have button prompts on the screen 24/7 and highlight every object you can use and have GPS to direct you exactly where to go even if the game is supposed to be open world. And then we have games like Warframe that expects player to learn on their own and people complain because they are used to being told everything and playing without thinking.

I never played many Games when I was younger and whatever few games I did play I completely Sucked at... That includes the Original Super Mario Brother's... I never made it past World 1-3.

That being said... Even that game despite no Tutorial did not leave you to fend yourself completely:

 

 

The Invisibile Guiding Hand of the Developer is very Sneaky....

You be surprised by the number of Ways they get away with these Things unnoticed... Even to someone like me who actively looks for these Tricks.

I kid you not... I played the Prologue of a Game Twice back to because I suspected the developers were trying to teach me something in Secret.... 

This is why Im a big Supporter of Dev Commentaries now because sometimes they Reveal some of these Tricks to the player in game....

I think the one that I was most impressed by was the Retutorialization Puzzle in Portal 2.... If you have it then replay the Section just before you leave Old Aperture with the Commentary Turned on... They explain how they reminded players how a Feature they should know worked because they picked up in testing that players forgot how to do it.... This wasn't a complex technique either it was literally fundamental and they forgot....

Twilight Prince did this by Blurting it out in your Face over and over again but Portal does it with a Sneaky Puzzle....

Another not so Old example comes from Devil May Cry Reboot.... This one will take longer to explain so Il save it for another time.